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Geek Culture / Making a Video Game, Not as Easy as You May Think-For Newbs

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Gil Galvanti
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Location: Texas, United States
Posted: 7th Jan 2006 03:35
I’ve decided to address the topic of making video games and how hard it is to actually do it, because I often hear comments suggesting people don’t understand how hard it is to make them, they don’t understand the difficulties in making one. They have the concept that you somehow magically think of what you want to happen, drag and drop a few things, and it’s done, you have an awesome video game. Not true.

I’ve seen quite a few posts, for example the infamous, “I have no clue how to do anything, but I’m going to make an MMORPG”, posts that all of us regular visitors and members of the forum know about. I’ve also seen posts like “im a newbbb, i don now wut 2 do, som1 HELP plzzzzz”, as most of us have, often by people who have no idea what it actually takes to make a video game, and expect to sit down create it easily, and within a day or two, no problem. This is why I’m making this post, of course the large majority of us, being actual game developers ourselves, obviously know what it takes to make a game, so this obviously isn’t aimed toward you, but rather those who post the kind of threads I’ve mentioned .

Why would it take video game companies with teams of 30+ people 2-3 years to produce a video game, all they have to do is click a few places, type a few words? Just for some credibility as to making this thread, although I’m not near as good a programmer as 90% of the people on here, I know what it takes, and I’ve made quite a few projects, mostly small ones myself, as well as my main one, “Pirates of Port Royale”(http://www.popr.gwgaming.net/ to prove I’m not just making this up). I spend most of my free time playing video games, thinking how they could be better, or creating them. Now that I’m fed up with some clueless people coming in, having no knowledge of what it takes to make one, I’ve decided to address the topic. So, why IS it so hard to make a video game? First of all, there are steps, lots of steps, lots and lots of steps, and it all starts with designing.

WARNING: Reading past this point, unless you have no clue about what it takes to make a video game, or are a complete newbie to making them, may cause extreme boredom and may possibly be sleep inducing. I am not liable for any injuries, mental or physical, or time-wastage that may occur while reading these pages. (j/k )

Designing is a crucial part of making video games, if you start a game without design, there’s probably a 95% chance it wont turn out either making since, the way you wanted it to, or you wont even finish the game. Game producers have to know what they want, not just the type of game, the title, the general idea, but every detail down to what kind of details you want on an NPC’s gun. Down to every little screen, every little nook and cranny in a level/world, every little texture on every little detail. I know I spent about 6 months designing my game, and I’m still designing it. And designing is only the beginning.

Now I’m not sure in what exact order professional companies do it, they probably do it all at the same time, actually. The “it” I’m talking about is modeling, texturing, programming, boning and animating, sound engineering, debugging and more. I could go into incredible detail about why each of these things takes so long, but I’ll just cover the basics.

First of all, programming, it probably takes the longest and one of the more difficult tasks of those. To program, its almost like learning another language, not a simple task. You try learning the thousands of commands there are, and then actually putting them to use, grouping them into functions, making them work together. Imagine writing a thousand page paper in a different language, which is practically what they’re doing. A professional video game is normally hundreds of THOUSANDS of lines. Here’s some example C++ code:
#include <iostream>
using namespace std;

void odd (int a);
void even (int a);

int main ()
{
int i;
do {
cout << "Type a number: (0 to exit) ";
cin >> i;
odd (i);
} while (i!=0);
return 0;
}

void odd (int a)
{
if ((a%2)!=0) cout << "Number is odd.\n";
else even (a);
}

void even (int a)
{
if ((a%2)==0) cout << "Number is even.\n";
else odd (a);
}


Not the most difficult thing in the world, but try memorizing all the commands then making something as big as something like “The Movies” or “Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion” out of it. I could go into detail about how every miniscule thing must be programmed, and give a ton of examples, and if you want me to, just ask, I’ll be happy to, but I don’t want to bore you to death.

Next we’ll talk about modeling, also a difficult task. Imagine having to individually move the points of 1000’s of triangles to make something recognizable, namely a character, or an object. Now think of not only doing this once but hundreds, thousands of times. Not so easy sounding is it? It isn’t, just go out and try a free trial for a 3D modeler like Truespace, see for yourself.

Not only do you have to make these models, you have to bone and animate them, as in, make them move. I’m not exactly sure how this process works, because I’ve never tried it, but I have an idea. You have to create, using a special program, each limb, each joint you want to move, place it within the model, and then animate them by moving these bones almost frame by frame. After this you call the animation to play in the game at the right times with programming.

Texturing…unless you want everything in the game to be white, textures are important, and it’s difficult to get realistic, good ones. They can be made from pictures, or a photo editor like Photoshop. No big deal right? All you have to do is take pictures. Only a few thousand of them, and they have to be good, fine tuned, often to where there’s no “seam” in them, where if they are repeated on a surface, you won’t notice.
Then there’s sound engineering, where hundreds of sounds are recorded, combined, and altered to get them just right, the perfect length, the perfect volume, the perfect tone, for the game.

Lastly, but not least, there’s debugging, as in if a programmer types a wrong key, someone has to scan through the hundreds of thousands of lines of code to find it, as in, the program does something weird, like makes you jump at some point, so someone has to find out where that is and fix it.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to discourage you to make games, I’m just giving you a reality check, and telling you to ask yourself, “Do I really want to get involved with the long, multi-month, or year, process of making a video game? Will it be a waste of time?” Now that I’ve made making video games seem like the most boring thing that you will ever experience, let me tell you the upside of it, why I love it.

In making a video game, you are telling a story, you are creating a world, the closest thing to an alternate reality. Video games have the power to get us closer than ever before to jumping into movies, jumping back in time, jumping into others shoes. Things that were before thought of impossible are now possible, and it’s all thanks to video games. You have the power to create hours of entertainment, make the impossible happen, create a world, an alternate universe, to tell a story, all at the power of your fingertips. That’s why I make video games; it’s not so much about the process, which actually isn’t as boring as it sounds, but more the experience, and mostly…the result.

Pirates of Port Royale:
http://www.popr.gwgaming.net
Live the life of a citizen from the 17th century. Anything from being an infamous pirate to a lowly blacksmith.
Insanity Complex
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 03:42 Edited at: 7th Jan 2006 03:55
I addressed this as well in the 3D forums. Although mine was more 3d inclined that programming, but it did cover a bit of programming. And C++ is difficult to learn, I'm on day 3 of the 21 days in my book, ive been reading it for about 2 weeks off and on. But I agree completely with what you've said above the comment about how it may cause extreme boredom.

[edit]sig test. [edit] #2



Under Construction
Oddmind
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 03:45
Good work, now if you can get newbies to sit down and read that, you will be truely worthy. I agree with everything you said but you left out a crucial point... Teamwork. Your probably never going to make a project without some help from other people. Whether its the dark matter texture library or a sword clanging sound file... You just aren't going to do it. A game can be designed perfectly in every single aspect, but if theres not a team that can cooperate and express ideas to one another, the project is a goner from day 1.

Also the way you make it seem, texturing sound engeneering and modelling coding ect. it sounds like only one person is doing this. Though you did have a reference to "big game making organizations" most people in the company only have one specific job, and have at least 2-3 other people that do the exact same thing.

Dont get me wrong, this is a very good point your making.. im just claering up a few loose ends.

formerly KrazyJimmy
Manticore Night
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 04:39
Quote: "boning and animating"
You rig models, boning 3D models is impossible (were are you gonna stick it?). Boning real life models on the other hand is quite impressive yet almost impossible because they're all out of your league.

Other than that I like what your trying to do. Although you should not expose noobs(probably underage kids) to your creepy model boning fetishs.

[center]It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)

He's back! With 20% less intelligence!
Insanity Complex
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 04:42
I'm not sure if that was uncalled for...or just plain strange....



Under Construction
Benjamin
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 05:13
Quote: "Other than that I like what your trying to do. Although you should not expose noobs(probably underage kids) to your creepy model boning fetishs."


Tempest - P2P UDP Multiplayer Plugin - 70%
Grog Grueslayer
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Playing: Green Hell
Posted: 7th Jan 2006 05:43
Quote: "Your probably never going to make a project without some help from other people. "


You don't have to have other people to start or even finish a project... a lot of the time it's probably better to avoid involving other people. It's like when writers and directors bump heads... each have their own vision on what everything should look like and they often get mad at each other because their actual visions aren't shown.


Oddmind
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 07:13
Where would peter jackson be without weta workshop?

gollum would look like an ms paint drawing... dont make me whip out some of the RPGamer masterpieces i just recently laid eyes on .

If you think that someone is likely to make all of their recources themselves then your "talking out of your ass" as someone put it to me on the 3d models board. Were talking about indie developers here... bedroom coders...Thats who this was directed to was it not?

formerly KrazyJimmy
soapyfish
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Posted: 7th Jan 2006 09:21
If you're working on an rpg or fps then it's unlikely you'll be able to do it all yourself. But if you're making pong or pacman, which a lot of newbs do, then you could probably manage by yourself (that's not including help with the odd bug here and there, which they'd ask about on here).

Mucho appreciation to Nicholas Thompson for helping me and my mac get along with each other better.
Gil Galvanti
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Location: Texas, United States
Posted: 8th Jan 2006 02:18
/bump

Pirates of Port Royale:
http://www.popr.gwgaming.net
Live the life of a citizen from the 17th century. Anything from being an infamous pirate to a lowly blacksmith.
Insanity Complex
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Posted: 8th Jan 2006 02:28
Also, I don't think that newbs should be deterred because of random flaming and misplaced anger. Even if it is putting them in their rightful place, they really shouldnt leave because of it. They should just fix their behavior and expectations. You can't come into a business expecting everything to be handed to you.


3D UnitedUnder Construction
driftman
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 07:34
Wow! I should check this forum more often, been a while.
Well put Gil, just to touch a little more on the modeling side; not only does it take a time to produce well textured animated models, but you also have to keep in mind how high the poly count is, to keep it running at a reasonable frame rate. You might have a beautiful human model, but if the poly count is 15,000, then it's not a very good idea to use it in the game. It's best to create low poly models for the game, but can be a hassel to get it to look worth a crap.

I have a lil' white jacket that lets me hug myself forever.
Raven
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 09:22
I don't understand most of this...
Programming isn't hard.

Generic BASIC


or

Generic C


Both examples are programming and by no means difficult.
The hard part of programming isn't the logic, but learning other peoples commands.

You'll find that this is really the most difficult concept of all, adapting to what other people have created to make your life easier. In the long run it does, but it's still a pain to learn the commands, learn what they need to run, which command need another to be initialised, etc.

it's quite easy to forget that.

what's even harder isn't just learning the commands, but understanding them enough to use them; or even use them well.

The way I see it a game isn't something particularly difficult.
It is extremely easy to develop the logic behind the game, what it should do, when, where and how. The difficult part is then figuring out a way to do it with these commands you have available to you.

You're constantly having to learn as a programmer, and you can never know it all. Once you understand that simple fact, then you can take on most challenges your faced with.
Don't be afraid to ask if you don't understand, but in the same instance, never ask until you've tried!



Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 09:36
Best way to learn is to take some code, read it, and change parts of it. The best thing about DB Classic is all of the built in help. You can type in a command, and press F1 to get an example on the fly. I don't think they put that into DB Pro....Why not? (Or maybe they did...)

Matt Rock
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Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 7th Mar 2006 15:19
Quote: "You rig models, boning 3D models is impossible (were are you gonna stick it?). Boning real life models on the other hand is quite impressive yet almost impossible because they're all out of your league."

Anim8or uses bone rigging to animate 3D models. And hey, how do you know if boning models is out of their league? None of us can say that it's unlikely that someone like Keanu Reeves might visit these forums... we wouldn't expect them to, but you can't say "they won't." I mean, Grace is (allegedly) a model, and what if she gets infactuated with someone on these forums (THAT is unlikely)?

I appreciate what you're trying to do Gil, but I don't think you should turn people off to programming. Some of those noobs do have the willpower it takes to learn programming and make games, they just need to learn the ropes, and I feel like some aspects of your post might turn these people off from game development, making them think it's too hard. I think a lot of people who are interested in joining our industry have talent but don't know how to applicate that skill... and for the rest of them, there's always openings at EA


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
re faze
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 16:23
I dont program, I spit out code to a melody

Manticore Night
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 17:32
Quote: "If you're working on an rpg or fps then it's unlikely you'll be able to do it all yourself. But if you're making pong or pacman, which a lot of newbs do, then you could probably manage by yourself (that's not including help with the odd bug here and there, which they'd ask about on here)."
I am Making a FPS, and I'm doing everything myself might get somone to do music, but other than that all by myself... It's so lonely.

[center]It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)

He's back! With 20% less intelligence!
Jeku
Moderator
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 17:47
Quote: "and for the rest of them, there's always openings at EA"


Hey don't be trash talkin' EA EA looks incredible on your resume and they have great long-term support programs to help their employees fit into whatever career path they ultimately desire. And it's not as if EA is any easier to get in than other game companies

David R
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 18:04
Quote: "A professional video game is normally hundreds of THOUSANDS of lines. Here’s some example C++ code:"


Heh, play Black & White, and you'll see 'Tech stats' on the menu. Click on it, and it will tell you the amount of lines of code being executed.

Guess how many there are....
[See code box for answer]



... And that was developed in 3 years, 1 month and 10 days; they must of been working extremely hard to get that result

Quote: "Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all."
Matt McFarland
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 18:26 Edited at: 7th Mar 2006 18:35
Hmm thats a linear approach to game design, which, is highly professional but only required for large projects that are shared by a team or projects that are quite unique. If you're making a break-out clone, match-3 clone, or a space invaders clone etc (if its based off of something that's been done before and you know the rules etc) you can take an abstract approach.

I'm designing my second game (first game was a success but it was just an nwn mod, not a real indie game) and the abstract approach is working just fine! It's probably not the best way to go about it, but then again, I'm an abstract person (I'm not linear or logical, I think in an abstract way) - So I like to design bit by bit on the fly, and my game is coming along very nicely.

It's not rocket science to design a simple game that is a clone of another with a new skin and some innovation on top. If I wanted to make the next big MMORPG (newbies biggest mistake) - or a completely BRAND NEW never heard of game, or manbe an FPS, or an RTS (something based off of the AAA titles out there, ALSO a BAD IDEA for NEWBS) then I woudl need a design document, a team(if competing against AAA), thousands of dollars up to millions(if competing against AAA), and a lot of structure.

I'm not saying Design Documents are bad in anyway! I am saying that for me, they are over the top until further notice!

Instead, I think of my theme, I hire an artist, pay him $ for contract work, put him in the credits, and I hold the Copyright and profits. This is working very well for me, and I'm creating a pretty nice game (I think) that I'm going to sell as shareware. If I were to think I could compete with say Bungie or Bioware, valve or ID, etc then I would be having dilusions of grandeur.

Jeku
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 19:03
Quote: "Instead, I think of my theme, I hire an artist, pay him $ for contract work, put him in the credits, and I hold the Copyright and profits."


I'm thinking of doing the same. What kind of price does in-game art go for these days?

Matt McFarland
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 19:06 Edited at: 7th Mar 2006 19:23
It really depends. If you post a "artist wanted" ad over at www.indiegamer.com you'll get about 5 replies and you can pick the best artist. There's a ton of them looking for work there. Prices vary hugely!

Here's what I do:

I lay out work I want done, and I get a quote. I let them know (in the ad) that payment is ON completion and I pay by paypal. I dont ever pay up front. If the artist says its a huge job and would need some money, then I break the job into small jobs and STILL pay on completion of each small job I've hired a few artists already for different tasks, and I've never had a problem with paying on completion. I've also talked with several artists that I didnt end up hiring, but they also were cool with payment on completion. I work for a contracting company, and we to, get payment on completion. So don't go for anyone who wants money up front! UNLESS they are a super-star artist with a good reputation, and you really want to use them OR its someone you know!

Jeku
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 19:28
Ahh thanks for the tips I will check out indiegamer.com today...

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 22:20 Edited at: 7th Mar 2006 22:23
Level Designer here: Will blow for food.

Jeku
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Posted: 7th Mar 2006 23:22
Unfortunately I just need a few 3D models--- I suck at even the most simple ideas

Matt Rock
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Posted: 8th Mar 2006 03:33
Quote: "And it's not as if EA is any easier to get in than other game companies"

I was making a generalization about the lacking quality of their games lately. But that's what happens when you get a bunch of suits running your development teams who don't care about games, just profit.

I think a lot can be done with a small team of about 7-9 people. Newbies should look to their friends and try to bring people into their projects to work with them. It works for most of my projects It's much easier to get a bunch of talented friends to work on a project with you than it is to (A) try and do everything yourself, or (B) use people you've never met from the internet. But sometimes you don't have an alternative.


"Hell is an Irish Pub where it's St. Paddy's day all year long" ~ Christopher, The Sopranos
Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 8th Mar 2006 05:28
Quote: "You're constantly having to learn as a programmer, and you can never know it all. "


Yeah what was it that Socrates said... "The only true knowledge is knowing that you know nothing."... it might of just been on Bill and Teds Excellent Adventure though.


Matt McFarland
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Posted: 8th Mar 2006 16:25 Edited at: 8th Mar 2006 16:26
(Bill and Ted walk up and Socrates stops talking to look at them.)
Bill: How's it going? I'm Bill, this is Ted. We're from the future.
Socrates: Socrates…hmmm.
Ted: Now what?
Bill: I dunno, philosophize with him.
Ted: All we are is dust in the wind, dude.
(Socrates obviously doesn't understand.)
Bill: (picks up some dirt out of a pan) Dust. (makes a motion with his hand to mean wind) Wind.
Ted: (points at Socrates) Dude.
Socrates: (in Greek) Yes, like sands of the hourglass, so are the days of our lives. (laughs)
Bill: Let's get out of here, dude.
(They walk off with Socrates laughing.)

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