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Geek Culture / Strangely odd theory

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Image All
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 09:38
It is impossible to see images.

The "image" you are looking at right now, would be the image of your computer screen. However, the screen is simply casting light, and all colors the human eye can see are made of light.

What the eye sees is passed on to the brain through electical neural impulses. The brain then takes these impulses and automatically recognises objects by "pattern recognition".

Take for example, a computer and a video camera. The camera takes each frame, and sends it to the computer in a series of zeros and ones. Then the computer, if programed, may perform minor pattern recognition to identify objects in each frame based on the arrangement of the binary code.

Seeing as the neural signals which pass through our brains are not much different from the principal of the computer's binary translation, I have concluded that no one ever sees "images". We simply know what is there and how it appears by what the eyes tell us to believe. Imagine if we do not see, simply interpret electrical neural signals, could it then be possible for different people to have their own unique pallette for seeing things? After all, everyone's mind is significantly different. Everyone thinks in a different way, and perhapse, interprets neural signals in different ways; i.e. if you and me were to trade the sight portion of our brians, would what you call "blue" be what I know to be "brown"? There is no possible way to describe colors, so the question will probably never be answered.

Besides the color stuff, there is dreams to consider. When the brain has run hundreds of billions of electical signals through it, the brain needs a rest. That's when the old signals are still floating around somewhere through the brain, sending false positives of the five senses. This we call dreaming, and some of you may think I am now. Who knows, I could be

dark coder
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 09:48
when you look at an image on a computer that is what we call looking at an image, technically ive never seen anyone in my life, only photons, but when they reflect light off people is called seeing someone so your theory sucks. go back to the drawring board, (if you can see it )

Halowed are the ori.
Jiffy
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 10:38 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2006 10:44
Well, guess what? In your lifetime, how many "images" (for lack of a better word, as in what photons you see at any particular moment, and the slightest move means another "image") will you see in your lifetime? The actual number is way too much, but the number would have more than 900,000,000 digits! That's of course a lot . Yeah, so there's an interesting fact for 'ya. Oh, and I got that from here: http://skytopia.com/project/light/light.html, it has some other interesting facts on the site too.


"You guys are losers with no life! I played Runescape all weekend..." - Manticore Night
BatVink
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 10:48
The "What colour are you really seeing" discussion is a very old one. The conclusion, to cut a long story short, is that we all see the same tones, but you will never know if we see the same colour. You call grass green because someone told you it was green, not because you came to the conclusion yourself. Thus anything else that has the same hue is green as far as you are concerned.

Wiggett
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 10:49
i get where you are coming from img, do blind people feel colours? no, so therefor all we see is what our brains (not our brians) interpret. But luckily enough everyone is so similar genetically that we all see green as green, unless someone is colour blind and does not see green as green.

Syndicate remastered: Corporate persuasion through urban violence.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 10:53 Edited at: 27th Jan 2006 10:54
It's possible that we all see different colours for RED or BLUE or GREEN, but the contrast would always have to be the same for black to be BLACK, and WHITE to be White. I think it's been discussed on here before.

I think that dreaming is just the removal of unused information, and defrag. You dream about the objects that are being connected together by a new route, because something was removed inbetween the two impulses.

It's also possible that when you walk, your atoms are a wave of information, and because the wave is made from impulses of tiny dots, your dots are replaced each step of your walk. So basically, as you walk accross the room, you are a new person each step of the way. This new person obviously carries exactly the same messages along with them, so you do not change in any way, unless something alters your wave.

When I first started out as a graphic artist I was drawing a Farrari, and it looked perfect to me. I looked at it a month later, and it looked pretty crappy. I then realised that I had spent so much time drawing it, that my brain had started to see the Farrari finished instead of actually seeing the Farrari how it really looked. It is best to flip a picture horizontally, and vertically if you want to see how it really looks!!!

Pincho.

SirFire
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 11:21
*takes a puff*

Yeah man, like... what if... *blows smoke out* ...we are all just figments of our own imaginations, or, or, we are all sims on a really advanced computer game?

Like wow!

Fallout
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 12:00 Edited at: 27th Jan 2006 12:03
The same goes for sound, smell and touch. Sound is the vibration of particles, smell and taste are a chemical detection of particles, and touch is the compression of nerves. Images and sounds both exist, you just have to understand what they are.

I think most people don't realise that music, at it's very core, is not an art form. It's maths. There are formulas that depict melodies and harmonies and it's not through choice that we like something. It's biological maths. Kinda interesting.

We're just advanced robots at the end of the day. Especially Megaton.

Edit: Btw, you can calculate how many images your eye sees in its life time. Apparently our eyes take something like 20 pictures per second, so if you live for 80 years, you'll see about 50 billion images. I guess if you have one eye gouged out by a badger at age 3, that'll be around 25 billion.

BatVink
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 12:19
Quote: "I guess if you have one eye gouged out by a badger at age 3, that'll be around 25 billion"


Nope, same number of images, just in 2D

Fallout
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 12:24


Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 12:39
Quote: "so if you live for 80 years, you'll see about 50 billion images"


There's an advert that says you see around 24 million images in your lifetime. It is quite obviously wrong.

However, we don't store an entire image. We store pieces like a broken pane of glass. We can build it up from memories of similar objects. Like we look at a fridge, and it's a white cube thing. We can remember the markings on the fridge, like the magnets, and the handle, but we can put those markings on any cube we can think of. So just remember white cube/ EXACT Markings.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 12:49 Edited at: 27th Jan 2006 12:51
While we're on the subject of colours, and contrast. I know that DB Classic couldn't always use black, but why do so many films not use black in their special effects?

I hate to see so many films ruined by grey/Blacks. Like...

'The War Of The Worlds'
'Men In Black'

The Black is often not even close to black...it's like 10,10,10

And some even use brown to replace colours like...

'The Matrix'



Why is that?

Dave J
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 12:56
Quote: "It is impossible to see images."


Such a statement cannot exist when you haven't defined what 'seeing images' means. The process you described is what we call 'seeing', therefore your theory is void, unless you have some other definition for the word 'seeing'.


Quote: "Seeing as the neural signals which pass through our brains are not much different from the principal of the computer's binary translation, I have concluded that no one ever sees "images". We simply know what is there and how it appears by what the eyes tell us to believe. Imagine if we do not see, simply interpret electrical neural signals"


I don't agree with that, either. The brain is a lot more complex involving many chemical reactions. A computer can only perform functions based on input data, where as the brain has its own creative mechanism. Major differences that everyone should already know is that we can learn, feel emotion and pick a random number from 10 without looking at the time! You're oversimplifying the process of the brain.


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 14:54
I see we have alot of smarties here.

Peter H
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 15:29
my brother said the almost exact same thing about 6 years ago...

the real question that we should be pondering however is... "Who's your daddy?"

"We make the worst games in the universe..."
Image All
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 15:54
Quote: "The process you described is what we call 'seeing', therefore your theory is void, unless you have some other definition for the word 'seeing'."


o.O maybe I'm a little weird but then, if the signals sent to the brain are perhapse a bit limited in what they can transfer (or if it's just the eyes being limited in what they capture), there could be more colors that no human on earth can see

Quote: "technically ive never seen anyone in my life, only photons,"


Pattern Recognition Your brain takes the signals and, based on what they are, can define Person separate from whatever is behind them; the eyes, the way they are, can see with "depth perception". That helps too, but I think it's more a matter of the brain comparing Pic1 vs Pic2 to estimate how far something is from something else.

Quote: "Apparently our eyes take something like 20 pictures per second,"


20fps?? Our eyes suck...but then if that's the case, why do we see a difference in a higher fps on a computer game, rather than having that capped to 20 anyway? maybe it's just cuz it's almost always out of sync...

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 17:12
There are more colours than a human can see. There is Ultra violet for one. But colours are a translation of information, so really you could have as many colours as you want in an imaginary world.

Quote: "computer can only perform functions based on input data, where as the brain has its own creative mechanism. Major differences that everyone should already know is that we can learn, feel emotion and pick a random number from 10 without looking at the time!"


Computers can learn, and pick random numbers like us without using the timer(). emotions are hard to define.

Codelike
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 17:14 Edited at: 27th Jan 2006 21:48
Quote: "could it then be possible for different people to have their own unique pallette for seeing things?"


You should try being colour-blind. For me, it was a comedy show, in itself, in art class at school! Grey=pink, brown=green...

...& don't ask me to pick the right resistor for that electronics project! I'm lucky that hex codes can be memorised, otherwise I'd be rather stuck.

Is it a physical disability? Depends on how you perceive it. Colour-blind people seem to have better night vision, apparently. Useful for hunting at the North Pole during the winter!

edit:
Here's the test: http://www.toledo-bend.com/colorblind/Ishihara.html


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Becky
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Posted: 27th Jan 2006 23:46
Quote: "no one ever sees "images". We simply know what is there and how it appears by what the eyes tell us to believe."

We see objects and a computer sees images. I can see all of my bedroom wall even though most of it is obscured by other objects such as my desk and monitor, but I know what it looks like and my mind fills the rest.

There may be a scratch or chip i'm not aware of, so i'm not seeing "the image" as it really is, i'm seeing my brains fixed image of it. That's because i'm seeing the object and I have a mental image of what a wall looks like, but I first got that mental image by looking at a wall...
Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Jan 2006 00:51
Quote: "could it then be possible for different people to have their own unique pallette for seeing things"
Believe it or not, but me and a couple of friends used to discuss this exact same topic over (many) beers around 1990 (was a bit hazy, so maybe not exact). We concluded that even if you swapped eyeballs (or part of your brain that computes images/ retinas/ whatever) with someone else (if we had the technology to do it) then a different pallete wouldn't be conclusive proof either way as we could not rely on a successful transplant. We also decided that we couldn't really have *totally* different palettes otherwise a lot more people would have difficulty telling the difference between different colours. Totally explains colour blindness though. We essentially thought the obvious conclusion would be that people could have lighter or darker palettes, and possibly completely opposite palettes (black instead of white all the way down through all colours - ie. totally backwards).

Anyway, we finally decided that your environment teaches you everything, so cannot be decided without transplant really. So even if you see "my" blue for the universally accepted "green", it is still "green" to you. Essentially "Green" is just a description (ie. a word) of something you see (and were taught). "See" is just a word too to describe something, so yes, you do see images. Because that is what we use to describe the process. Just words.

Or something like that. I was very much having a very good time back then

After that we wrote loads of poems that mainly sucked (good olde college ) and proceeded to get more drunk over the next few years. Good times...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 28th Jan 2006 01:37
Quote: "We also decided that we couldn't really have *totally* different palettes otherwise a lot more people would have difficulty telling the difference between different colours."


Quote: "We essentially thought the obvious conclusion would be that people could have lighter or darker palettes, and possibly completely opposite palettes (black instead of white all the way down through all colours - ie. totally backwards)."



Quote: "Anyway, we finally decided that your environment teaches you everything, so cannot be decided without transplant really."


You decided to agree with every argument?

Cunning!!!

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 28th Jan 2006 01:41
It's simple to find out without looking in someones brain. Just write two computer programs that are taught two different colours for RED. Now put them in a conversation, and see if they ever cross a conversation barrier. If they never realise that they are talking about two different colours, then there is no problem for a human either.

But it would probably require a neural network.

Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Jan 2006 02:06
Quote: "and see if they ever cross a conversation barrier"
How would they come across a conversational barrier if, for example, one palette was completely opposite to the other? So if one had "your" loaded palette then how could a barrier arise if they are taught the exact same way. eg. "Object A is red" (show both the same thing), "B is green", "C is also green, but lighter" etc etc. They should learn the exact same thing (just with totally opposite, erm, colourpoints), and I don't see how you could get a barrier. Completely random palettes can't be possible, otherwise you would get a *lot* of confusions. eg. if my black and white are your red and amazingly similar lighter red, then I will be able to see "black" words on a "white" board a hell of a lot easier than you can. Very rare partial random palettes could explain colour blindness though (but not complete randomness though, as it is normally only two colours).

Crikey, after a bit of a boozy friday night, this is almost the same as 1990. Woop. Must lie down now....

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Codelike
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Posted: 28th Jan 2006 02:24 Edited at: 28th Jan 2006 02:26
One way of considering this is how two (colour-enabled!?) artists visualise the same colour. Surely, they'd both paint very similar shades for the same study? Indeed, this is the case - the shades are similar, enough, so as not to be of any significant difference.

Claude Monet (Waterlilies) is another interesting example. As he got older, his paintings developed a more yellow/brown hue, due to the physical ageing of his eyes. He painted what his eyes saw.

I have an XP3000+, 1.5gb DDR333, a 6600GT and I'm programming 3k text-based exe's?!
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 28th Jan 2006 03:18 Edited at: 28th Jan 2006 03:20
Quote: "How would they come across a conversational barrier if, for example, one palette was completely opposite to the other? So if one had "your" loaded palette then how could a barrier arise if they are taught the exact same way. eg. "Object A is red" (show both the same thing), "B is green", "C is also green, but lighter" etc etc. They should learn the exact same thing (just with totally opposite, erm, colourpoints)"


Quote: "and I don't see how you could get a barrier."


Quote: " Completely random palettes can't be possible, otherwise you would get a *lot* of confusions. eg. if my black and white are your red and amazingly similar lighter red, then I will be able to see "black" words on a "white" board a hell of a lot easier than you can."


You seem to often go in both directions at the same time. LOL!!!

I wrote more or less that you wouldn't get a barrier already.

Les Horribres
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Posted: 28th Jan 2006 03:56
The human eye can interpret a photon at 200FPS, but can not interpret the absence of photons at 100FPS. ie, you can see a flashed image at 200FPS, but you can't see the flash of black at 100FPS.

The reason people can't all be colorblind is because of the pycological effects colors have on people, and the physical effects as well. For instance, it is a big belief that people see the color red the best. If this statment is true, then how is it that people always see red the best? There are also some comparitive phycological studys done on colors. People act certain ways in diffrent colors.

Uhh, isn't REM one of the most active times the brain has during sleep? And isn't is suppose to be solving problems?

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 28th Jan 2006 12:16
Quote: "The reason people can't all be colorblind is because of the pycological effects colors have on people, and the physical effects as well."


These could be taught through life, and so the colour wouldn't matter.

Quote: "Uhh, isn't REM one of the most active times the brain has during sleep? And isn't is suppose to be solving problems?"


We do solve problems in our sleep.

Tinkergirl
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Posted: 28th Jan 2006 12:40
Ah, cognitive psychology

The people who have mentioned that we see patterns - not images - are correct (from what I learned at uni). An eye merely focuses photons on the retina, that then sends a series of electrical signals to the visual part of the brain. Those signals are more interested in contrasts and edges, than exact position and even colour.

Otherwise, we'd never be able to recognise a friend in a disco (different lighting) or from a funny angle (different shape).

Face recognition admittedly is a special case - human beings are 'hardwired' to excell at face recognition as it's so utterly essential for a social species like ourselves. From a survivial point of view, recognising who your enemy is, and who your ally is, is vitally important - it was when we lived in caves and hunted, and it is now when we sit around boardroom tables and cut deals over lunches.

Don't believe me? Then here's a face for you If you've ever seen a human with a face like that, then I pity you - but still we all recognise it as a face. Two dots and a line are all we seem to need to recognise one. (Or shades of light and dark - you've seen faces in clouds before, I'm sure.)

Colour blindness / colour vision is usually a physiological matter - you physically have more or less 'cone receptors' to 'rod receptors' in the retina. One detects light/dark, the other detects colour (I can't remember off hand which is which).
If you have more of the light/dark ones, then you'll have less room for the colour ones. Thus - your eyesight will be better in the dark (tones of grey) but your colour vision will suffer.
Indeed, there is a community in Africa (I think, may be South America) of relatively primitive people who genetically have poor colour vision, but excellent night vision. They fish at night, under the stars because they can see so well.

Makes you wonder if amongst the 'non-colour-blind' masses, there aren't some people that have a more brilliant world of colour, but lack very much night vision at all, and others to whom colour is relatively bland, but they can see the dark a lot better. If colour blindness is the extreme, surely there are different levels?

It's also believed that the number of colours we see has not been a constant throughout the centuries/millenea. Red indeed would have been the first colour we (as a species) would have been able to discern - as it was the most important for our survival - blood is red, after all. What other colour would have been of more use?

And finally, on a much less scientifically sound line - who else here sees the extra colour in a strong rainbow, the one just past violet that looks a little bit greeny-purple?

</selfimportantwittering>
Les Horribres
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Posted: 28th Jan 2006 16:21
Quote: "One detects light/dark, the other detects colour (I can't remember off hand which is which)."
Rods are dark, cones are color. In theory.

Quote: "We do solve problems in our sleep."

Quote: "Besides the color stuff, there is dreams to consider. When the brain has run hundreds of billions of electical signals through it, the brain needs a rest. That's when the old signals are still floating around somewhere through the brain, sending false positives of the five senses. This we call dreaming"


Quote: "Face recognition admittedly is a special case - human beings are 'hardwired' to excell at face recognition as it's so utterly essential for a social species like ourselves"

I love those face reconizion articles. Did you know, that the spatial ability of the mind is hindered by face reconizion? If you flip a picture of a person with upside down to form (: the mind instantly interprets the face, yet does not rotate it. So you think she is smiling.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Jan 2006 19:23
My lodger's third year Computer Science Uni project was face recognition stuff. Bores me to tears with all that neural network, fuzzy logic type stuff. Personally I did an adventure game creator on the Mac. My speech to the lecturers at the end of the year was probably the only one ever to include an orc army battle cry (good olde newsgroups....). Although the most interesting I've heard about is a bloke in work who for his project visited his local hospital and did some sort of 3D software for their brain scanning stuff (MRI or whatever). Tops. Although 2 blokes from the previous year wrote software for the EuroFighter HUD. But that doesn't count because it wasn't a project, just their sandwich year.

Hmmm. This stuff was much more interesting in 1990 with a lot more beer

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Peter H
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Posted: 28th Jan 2006 19:27
Quote: "If you flip a picture of a person with upside down to form (: "

ummm.... do you "to form ):"??? because unless that person's eyes are below it's mouth... it's smiling

"We make the worst games in the universe..."
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2006 04:40
You all are on crack. Lol. Just kidding. Very interesting. It's kind of late here, but I'll have to read that website that Jiffy posted tomorrow. Seems very interesting, and sounds like something my physics teacher would love to read. He was almost on jeopordy but couldn't because he couldn't get the time off (wouldn't that just eat you up inside?). But he probably knows alot about this stuff already, I'll have him comment.

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