Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / Is cheeper better in the long run?

Author
Message
Pheonixx
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 01:18
Link
I find myself wondering a great deal about the information technology market and what it is doing to the American Economy.

DELL Computers announced recently that it is going to be doubling it's India workforce from 10,000 to 20,000 jobs, some of which "might" include assymbly of their computers.

So I find myself disgusted. Not against India, let me make that perfectly clear. But against americans who purchase items from corperations that outsource jobs to foriegn countries.

But as I get disgruntled over this latest news, I find myself hard pressed to remember the last time an IT product was actually manufactured 100% in the United States.

When I seperated from the US Military almost a year ago, I came home to an abundance of jobs that have vanished by, not the hundreds, but the tens of thousands a month. Every time I turn a corner more and more jobs are being outsourced to foriegn interests.

So why is it so cheep for American Corperations to do such things? I have been thinking about it for a long time, and I came up with a few viable excuses.

Everywhere in the world we do business with a country there are three things already in place. Political Embassies. The Peace Corps. And nearby or active US Military Forces.

In a world consumed with Oil, American Media and American People have apparently overlooked a possibly horrible concept:

Are we sacrificing American and Ally Troops so we can outsource jobs to foriegn countries?

The reason I say this, is that if it wasn't for Government Funded Embassies, Government Funded Military, and for Privately Funded Peace Corps. Could these American Corperations afford the extra costs of protecting themselves and representing themselves in foreign nations?

The more we destroy our middle class, the less money we have to run our government, the less money we have to support our troops, and ultimately our loss as a super power to the world. Am I the only one that sees this? It's not too late to restore Manufacturing, Information Technology, and Independant Energy to our country and our allies.

As far as I'm concerned, I will do everything I can to avoid products from nations that don't even adhere to the Geneva Conventions.

Strength in a Nation comes from cooperation with other Nations. But when it comes to sacrificing the American way of life just so we can purchase cheep computers, I have to draw the line. I have added DELL computers to a long list of companies that are selling out our country from beneath us.

Cheeper is not better in the long run.

http://ausukusa.breakset.com
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Milkman
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Nov 2005
Location: United States
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 01:35 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2006 01:43
Link
I totally agree. Outsourcing is just a cheap way for companies to make an extra buck, at the cost of American jobs. The solution? High outsourcing and/or import taxes!
It would inevitable make it cheaper for [American] companies to operate in the United States. Problem solved!
I know there are probably other issues involved with this, but that's just the easiest solution.

In summary: Government wins, American public wins, corperations lose

formerly xMik
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 01:46
Link
The problem originates from union wages paid to American workers. Americans have fought for higher wages and better benefits, and that stuff costs the companies a lot of money. We wage levees on foreign imports, which directly raises the prices, but the companies seek more profit. Outsourcing is their solution.

Outsourcing is hurting American, and the damage will continue to grow. However, unless we either ban foreign imports (impossible) or significantly raise the tariffs (political suicide, as it will result directly in prices going up), we're stuck.

Americans react badly to higher prices. People bitch about their rights being violated and choices being taken away. Personally, I'll pay for for American goods. Not because they're better, but because it's better for America in the long run.

In the end, I can only protect myself an my family by getting a job that won't be outsourced. America's economy is changing to adapt, and so do people.


Pong y2k.5 - Balls of Steel, Beta http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=60999&b=8
Back to top
Profile PM
Pheonixx
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 01:46
Link
Increased costs of producing goods leads to less money to supply workers. When the costs of goods to wages ratio changes like that it is desasterous.

Tariffs and Trade Sanctions are not the solution in my opinion. We must boycott these violating companies at the civilian level by making educated purchases accross the board.

The last thing we need to do is add more Beuracracy to the Beuracracy to compensate for American Consumer Ignorance.

http://ausukusa.breakset.com
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 01:48 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2006 01:50
Link
Quote: "Tariffs and Trade Sanctions are not the solution in my opinion. We must boycott these violating companies at the civilian level by making educated purchases accross the board."


Of course boycotting is the best solution. However, most people won't pay higher prices, given the choice. No matter what logic you use, they just won't. It's hard for me and I believe in what I'm saying. I've got a family of six, life isn't cheap.


Pong y2k.5 - Balls of Steel, Beta http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=60999&b=8
Back to top
Profile PM
SirFire
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Apr 2005
Location: North America
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 02:09 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2006 02:10
Link
You get what you pay for. Those cheap outsourced jobs yield crappy results. Just look at outsourced customer/technical support, you can't tell me you EVER get satisfied dealing with those Indian people.

[EDIT]
Nothing against people from India, just that entering keywords that I say into a terminal and pulling up a script is NOT the same as talking to a competant human being about a problem. Half the time you cannot even understand their english.

Back to top
Profile PM Website
Pheonixx
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 02:14
Link
Almost every tech recruiter I have come accross 'suposedly' located in the United States has a thick India dialect. JP Morgan/Chase financial gave me some outsourced your job oppertunity love, as soon as I can get my money off those accounts I'm personally boycotting them too. The list is endless.

http://ausukusa.breakset.com
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
CattleRustler
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Aug 2003
Location: case modding at overclock.net
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 03:40
Link
the continued destruction of the middle class

FREE Automatic file updates for your distributed Games and Apps - see Program Announcements Forum - DBP Demo
Back to top
Profile PM
John Y
Synergy Editor Developer
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 10:41
Link
Companies are driven by profits, the shareholders want money over anything else. It's happening in Western Europe as well, it's not going to change. I can't think of a piece of computer hardware that is made in the US, all the companies like Intel, AMD have their factories in eastern countries.

The only thing that will stop it, is when the Indians and Chinese start demanding higher wages. But, this is a long way off yet


Http://synergyide.thegamecreators.com
Http://omegabasic.thegamecreators.com
Back to top
Profile PM Website
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 10:59
Link
I'm really an anti-patriot. Don't get me wrong, I do love the UK, I do love our culture and how our country works. I do, big headedly, think we are one of the greatest nations. But, I don't feel the UK is an entity that defines me. I am a human. I exist in the world.

As much as I know outsourcing jobs may ultimately reduce jobs in this country and damage the economy, I find it reassuring to know that people in other countries, who have less chance of jobs, are getting those opportunities. Maybe I can sit back and say that knowing that I'll always be able to find a job and other people around me will be the ones struggling with employment.

It's just that, I like to look past my country's border. I know some guy in India doesnt give two sh*ts about me, but neither does my neighbour. Why do we deserve jobs more than foriegners? Why should our fortune of being born and living in strong developed countries always be rewarded with more fortune and strength? Why can't we give some of it away to countries that are in a weaker position than us?

Sweat shops, job out-sourcing and other forms of cheap labour are all positive steps to a country's development. They might seem harsh at the start, but they always result in more jobs and more development and better working conditions and pay in the end. If we deny companies from developed countries from out-sourcing and making sweat shops, we keep all our success to ourselves, and leave those other countries in limbo.

Just an angle to think about.

Back to top
Profile PM
Richard Davey
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Apr 2002
Location: On the Jupiter Probe
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 11:00
Link
Without this thread turning political (please.. it's against the AUP, because no-one ever agrees with each other!) ... I would wager that it is physically impossible to buy a computer (PC, Mac) that was 100% manufactured in the US. Infact I would imagine that hasn't been possible for many many years.

Macs are built in Japan and other Far East countries, then shipped over. All of your lovely Intel and AMD processors, never mind the memory and graphics cards, or motherboards, all mostly fabricated in the Far East as well. Do China or Korea subscribe to the Geneva convention? (I honestly don't know, but I'd bet they don't) - they are responsible for the majority of the components in your PC however.

I don't believe it is even possible to build a computer from fully 'home grown' components. If you don't want to fun Dells Indian expansion, then don't buy from them. I mean it's not exactly hard to build a PC anyway, so why give them your money in the first place?

I mean hell, most of the "meat" (and I use that term losely!) in a Big Mac doesn't come from the US either. Do you want to boycott MacDonalds too? because if so, there are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of other products and companies you'd need to boycott as well.

I'm not saying you should be happy with the situation, but your country was virtually founded on 'free trade' and 'importing / exporting', so this can't exactly be a total shock for you, can it?

Cheers,

Rich

Bite my shiny metal ass
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Torrey
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 11:12
Link
I have a lot of experience with Dell and their outsourced work force is absoluetly horrible. If the America side of their business tries to contact the India side, India does not give them any information. Not to mention they aren't very good over the phone with english communication. I was going to purchase a new laptop from them but it fell through thanks to the Indians. My final choice ended up being Gateway for a new laptop. They gave me no problems at all and there wasn't a single Indian worker during any of my calls with them.

Powerful scripting made easy, click here for DarkScript!
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 11:26
Link
English is pretty much India's first language. There're quite a lot of Indian foreign students around here, and I find them really easy to understand, even if they do spend all their time shouting. I've not had problems with understanding Indians in call-centers either. I thought that's why they were chosen - because their english is good, and understandable,

Back to top
Profile PM
Torrey
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 11:28
Link
Keep in mind that your location says UK, and Indians (including Pakis) are taught to speak with a UK style. This mixture can make some people hear gibberish.

Powerful scripting made easy, click here for DarkScript!
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Richard Davey
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Apr 2002
Location: On the Jupiter Probe
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 11:29
Link
Quote: "If the America side of their business tries to contact the India side, India does not give them any information."


This is an internal Dell issue (or balls-up), not specific to India, or its workforce per se.

Bite my shiny metal ass
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Richard Davey
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Apr 2002
Location: On the Jupiter Probe
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 11:33
Link
Quote: "Keep in mind that your location says UK, and Indians (including Pakis) are taught to speak with a UK style. This mixture can make some people hear gibberish."


To me some Americans sound like gibberish.

It doesn't mean anything, people generally don't like foreign dialects, no matter where they are from.

(BTW be careful of your choice of words, 'Pakis' isn't an acceptable term here and is borderline racist)

Bite my shiny metal ass
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Tinkergirl
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jul 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 11:39
Link
I thought I'd mention a something:

You may want to start boycotting big games companies too then. As many are now looking in to outsourcing art resourses across the world. Little polygon sweatshops in Russia, Croatia, India, China, and the South Americas. It's already surprisingly common Are you going to boycott non-American polygons?

Generally though, I find it sadly typical, that when importing by the billions damages the environment (because importing goods is terrible for the environment, every mile travelled is a Bad Thing) nobody gives a moment's pause. But when it affects jobs, then it's the worst thing ever.

There used to be a saying in the UK: "Better Buy British". Shame we've lost that pride in our own craftmanship.
Back to top
Profile PM
Torrey
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 12:18 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2006 12:21
Link
News to me about that word being borderline racist. I almost married a girl from pakistan, and I hear that word used quite often. Sorry!

[edit]

Etymology: short for Pakistani
chiefly British, usually disparaging : a Pakistani immigrant

I looked it up at m-w.com, and now I can understand why you said it's borderline racist.

Quote: "Little polygon sweatshops in Russia, Croatia, India, China, and the South Americas. It's already surprisingly common. Are you going to boycott non-American polygons?"


I haven't seen any polygon sweatshops during my many visits to Croatia, but they are extremely proud of Serious Sam. One place I have saw something like a "polygon sweatshop" is in Romania. A lot of excellent programmers are hidden in that country.

Powerful scripting made easy, click here for DarkScript!
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 12:27 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2006 12:28
Link
Quote: "Keep in mind that your location says UK, and Indians (including Pakistanis) are taught to speak with a UK style."


If they are, they get it seriously wrong! I don't see any correlation in style between our various dialects and theirs. It basically sounds like Hindi, but in English. Mind you, I think there are hundreds of dialects in India, so no doubt there's a chance that the guys you've spoken to on the phone have a particularly harsh dialect. To me it's almost funny.

I was in a lab at uni the other day, and it was me, and a mate ,working in silence. In the lab was a lecturer and an Indian student. He was talking to the lecturer about some assignment. His accent was basically really loud defined words in a single tone at break-neck pace. He sounded like a turbo charged hindi robot. Really different dialect and actually quite funny seeing as you could've heard a whisper in that place. But it was easy to understand.

@TinkerGirl

You raise a good point there too. I would argue that outsourcing IT, support etc. is fine, and keeping as much production related industry as close to home as possible is a good move (for environmental reasons). Should suit both arguments. And multi-cultural polygons are clearly the most diverse and attactive.

Back to top
Profile PM
Torrey
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 12:32 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2006 12:33
Link
What defines a multi-cultural polygon?

Is it also possible to conclude various facts about a cultural polygon from the actual culture itself? For example a lot of French people I've met are rather short, would this mean a compilation of French polygons would only produce a high poly model?

Powerful scripting made easy, click here for DarkScript!
Back to top
Profile PM Email
John Y
Synergy Editor Developer
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 12:39
Link
I bought a laptop from Dell recently, and had to deal with Indian call centres. I can honestly say I can understand an Indian accent better than an Irish accent (which I had to understand when dealing with Maxtor). Of course they made some mistakes in their grammar, but on the whole I knew I was getting a good deal on the hardware.

The laptop was shipped from Ireland where it is assembled, but of course the actual hardware was made in Malaysia, China etc.


Http://synergyide.thegamecreators.com
Http://omegabasic.thegamecreators.com
Back to top
Profile PM Website
Pheonixx
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 16:24
Link
Buying from countries such as Australia, the Unitied Kingdom, Japan (the other tree countries that comprise Ausukusa's name / pronounciation) is definately a good thing. Even though their military strength is bolstered by US support, corperations could easily operate in them without falling into the concept of needing US troops support in order to maintain production.

I am completely pro commercialism and import/export with these countries.

If these corperations in some third world countries and other 'not exactly friendly to the US countries' did not have the protection of US Embassies, US Military Action, and Voluntary Programs (Such as the Peace Corps), then: Could they in essense afford to maintain their workforce and pay for their own security and still achieve higher profits then hiring a workforce in america?

Taking this thought to the next level and purpose of this thread: Are we in essence sacrificing Military Lives in order to have cheeper products? And will buying cheep ultimately result in the disassymbly of our nations?

...

Secondarily, Indian call centers in and of themselves, is there not a mexican border full of immigrants that are going to enter our country anyway, and would be more then willing to fill those positions?

With the combination of Mexicans willing to take up the hard work low end jobs in america, and the low end technical jobs going to india, and the middle class being obsolved thru taxation to support all this mess such as social security ballooning and illegal immigration, are we not splitting the USA into a bipolar class hierarchy when our population is estimated at 500 million in 2050?

...

Texas Instruments and Cyrex Processors. I could be wrong, but I thought they were both American Companies, TI resorting to school calculators, and Cyrex Processors now just making specialized computer units for vehicles. The faster and cheeper Intel Processors buried over a dozen chip manufacturers in America between 1980 and 2000

...

All of the dog eat dog darwanism talk about not having to worry about your job because you have an education and are above it, really doesn't prove the any point other then missing the fact that most of the worlds social/political stability comes from super powers and democracy.

...

I don't like to eat at McDonalds, I prefer to eat Organics for many health reasons, but I am guilty of the occassional burger and fries. (I've managed 3 weeks now without eating that junk or any soda )

Eating Organics themselves is also an import, whereas until they lower organic standards in America, almost all of it comes from overseas locations such as Chile, South America. One thing I pride myself in is drinking Silk Soy, which is grown in NewYork.

I just want to be clear, I'm just pondering some long term effects of 'buying non great ally-american'.

http://ausukusa.breakset.com
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Reaperman
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: Kent, England
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 16:53 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2006 16:56
Link
Well, I do agree that outsourcing is a cheap way for companies to make extra money, and that too much of it can hurt local jobs.

But, look at it from another point of view.

I lived and worked in the USA for 5 years (great place…love the American way of life!). I had applied to the main California state university to run their IT faculty, and after sending my CV (and having a telephone interview) I got the job.

I later found out that I was chosen over about 400 local and national applicants because (apart from my qualifications) I was from England!. When I asked about it the reason given was simply this…. Americans are not as well thought of when it comes to technical jobs as they are either seen as more lazy, or less well educated or just plain unreliable and/or dishonest.

Now I am not saying I agree with that, and I have found the American people to be great…but the fact is that a lot of jobs do go to non-Americans because the employers get a better overall “workforce” for their money.


Cheers
Reaperman
Back to top
Profile PM
Tinkergirl
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jul 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 17:50
Link
Quote: "When I asked about it the reason given was simply this…. Americans are not as well thought of when it comes to technical jobs as they are either seen as more lazy, or less well educated or just plain unreliable and/or dishonest. "


Curious thing. When I visited a games company over there, they were actively (and impolitely) headhunting us (Brits) because we have a different work ethic to many (not all - I'm only the messenger, don't kill me) US developers.
The main reason they cited was company loyalty. A Brit (apparently) is more likely to stay for a whole project, and not flit between companies like butterflies to flowers - whereas they found US developers viewed it as 'just another job' and had no qualms about leaving mid-project, taking their knowledge with them at the drop of a hat.

What I found amusing was - none of us (the British devs) took them up on their headhunting offers (despite assurances of lots of money, and help getting settled into LA) - because of the loyalty to our company. The very reason they wanted us.

Sorry about the random rambling. I've personally not known enough US devs to have formed my own opinions of any difference in work ethic, I'm just letting you know what they cited as their reasons.
Back to top
Profile PM
Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 22nd Mar 2006 18:38
Link
That almost supports the whole "Blair is a lapdog to bush" debate, but from an IT perspective.

Back to top
Profile PM
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 23rd Mar 2006 01:14
Link
Personally, I think loyalty is the single most important quality for a worker to have. I always HATED soldiers that were disloyal.

It's unfortunate that Americans are seen as disloyal. It's even more unfortunate that it's probably true.


Pong y2k.5 - Balls of Steel, Beta http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=60999&b=8
Back to top
Profile PM
Pheonixx
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posted: 24th Mar 2006 03:13
Link
That is a perception that I never realized.

I have always known a variety of types of people. Those that work hard to do everything, those that work hard 'in their lane', those that work hard when the boss is around, those that work hard to push blame on someone elses work, those that work hard to avoid work, those that work hard to get other people to do their work and those that work hard to hide work so it gets forgotten.

America is a melting pot where the chef's keep throwing crap into the stew. It would be foolish to classify any country, much less this one, by a handful of its population.

The problem with American IT workers from my personal experience with them, is that their jobs are dissappearing, and once they find one, it gets outsourced or cancelled, and they have to go find another one. Many times the outsourcing or cancelling is because they are not willing to work for less money then their contract, and other IT companies offer them what they want, which ultimately they over budget, and the cycle continues.

It's really annoying.

Is it the IT guys asking for too much money?

Is it inflation causing the cost of living to merit these wages?

Or is it that cheep labor can be found in other countries?

What has been brought up about British people having better work ethic, I think that's pretty biased. Definately something I had not considered before.

http://ausukusa.breakset.com
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Pheonixx
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posted: 27th Mar 2006 02:01
Link
More thoughts can be found at http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=382554

Definately a good experience hearing your thoughts from both communities.

http://ausukusa.breakset.com
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Back to top

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-16 19:36:49
Your offset time is: 2024-11-16 19:36:49