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Geek Culture / | Heavy Rain | - true next gen?

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hexGEAR
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Posted: 13th May 2006 05:54
Just another interesting entry into this years E3 expo but the video below is more of an engine tech demo than in-game footage or some video render.

Rather than push graphics or gameplay these guys are pushing emotion. You may not recognise the name Quantic Dream but you should definitely recognise their former creation; Indigo Prophecy. This is their response to next-gen.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=10757&type=mov

Age verification is required because of the subject matter.

Not much of a far cry from the Half Life 2 emotion engine but still it's pretty impressive, i wonder what kind of new gameplay styles this engine can exploit. Anywyas it was nice to find out that it uses the AGEIA physics engine.

Jeku
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Posted: 13th May 2006 10:18
That girl's face looks hideous. Does not look realistic at all.

Saikoro
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Posted: 13th May 2006 10:34
As much as I hate it when people do this....

Seconded. :\

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Fallout
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Posted: 13th May 2006 10:54
I don't really know what I watched. Is that in game footage? And what the hell sort of game is it? I thought the face looked pretty good, but as usual it's the crapness of lip syncing that lets it down. When will someone invent decent lip synching tech? It's so lame.

Jiffy
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Posted: 13th May 2006 11:07 Edited at: 13th May 2006 11:08
The lip syncing is better and more accurate than a lot of games, but I don't think it's got anything on HL2 (Best lip-syncing I think I've seen in game--I mean, c'mon, it looks great).

Although I did think it was good nonetheless. Interesting video to watch too.

EDIT: Oh, and her teeth are mammoth. Very mammoth.


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Robin
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Posted: 13th May 2006 11:31
That's a big mouth she's got! and heer fingers are spaced finda far apart. Otherwise, it's really good

Benjamin
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Posted: 13th May 2006 12:16
God. What an emo.

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hexGEAR
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Posted: 13th May 2006 12:44
lol yeah its got a lot of problems; like the lip-sync and teeth mentioned above but still i can't deny the fact that i felt some kinda emotion towards the end of the video. Not necessarily from the actress alone but from the mood, music, acting, etc all combined and i guess at the end of the day that is what their gunning for.

Quote: "I don't really know what I watched. Is that in game footage? And what the hell sort of game is it?"


Basically they're just showing off their engine, there isn't much info on the web about the actual gameplay other than i think the girl in the video is the main protagonist and it's going to be a very 'emotional' game.

Eric T
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Posted: 13th May 2006 12:50 Edited at: 13th May 2006 12:50
I was pretty impressed actually, it was a tech demo showing off their advanced motion capture abilitys and thats just what they did. The way she moved around so fluidly, the way her muscles in her face would scrunch up when she'd be getting angry and then loosen up when she'd get more relaxed. I was quite impressed. Of course, some people are so very close minded their paying more attention to the model then the tech being showed off in the TECH DEMO. Keyword, TECH DEMO.

David T
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Posted: 13th May 2006 13:14
I liked that a alot. The graphics were incredibly impressive and at times when I stpped concentating on the woman I actually thought she was human for a second. Obviously the lip sync needs work but I look forward to seeing what sort of game could be made with this...

Wiggett
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Posted: 13th May 2006 15:01
I agree with david, whether it was just my eye's jiggling or going blurry a few times there you would think you are watching a live human. the lip sync and the voice was a bit iffy at times, but it was rather fluid body control. and yeah what is the game? is it an acting simulator? or is it an engine for people to make in game cut scenes seem more real?

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Raven
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Posted: 13th May 2006 15:36
Graphics, for what is possible weren't too impressive tbh.
The MoCap was also quite shoody at points, especially considering it's using Aegis and IK .. there's really no excuse for poor animation nowadays. About the only thing you can overlook is the LipSyncing which imo should be focused on more and more by artists now that you have more power, tools and control over such things.

Not expecting something ground-breaking but on the whole LipSyncing in most games is truely aweful, especially given more and more games are providing hightened realism and close-ups meaning that this is now becomming a focus for gamers.

This said the acting was pretty crap until she started getting into character properly.

On the whole, no doubt Hard Raid will be another good psychological thriller from Quantum.. still I hope they sort out their engine properly over the next year.
I know it sounds a bit harsh, but these guys have been working in the industry for over a decade with games that are designed to suck you into an immersive story; and honestly Indigo Prophecy had one hell of alot better animation.

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Posted: 13th May 2006 15:49
Ahm that was quite cool if I say so myself. Lipsync needed work, and her teeth were too frickin' big, but man. Squint your eyes a bit and it looked incredibly realistic.


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hexGEAR
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Posted: 13th May 2006 16:04
Apparently what you guys just witnessed in that video was the first time a virtual character has ever cried!

Quote: "what is the game? is it an acting simulator? or is it an engine for people to make in game cut scenes seem more real?"


I'm sure it's going to be a game along the vein of Indigo Prophecy so go check that out. I can imagine them taking a kind of psychological thriller approach. Not necessarily related to this game but imagine a detective game where you have to observe the facial expressions of witnesses you interview to determine if they are lying or telling the truth...

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Posted: 13th May 2006 16:05
The thing about the teeth ... how many people have you seen in real life with huge ass buck teeth??!? I rest my case! There are ugly bastards throughout the world - so she is realistic!

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Posted: 13th May 2006 16:10 Edited at: 13th May 2006 16:11
Quote: "That's a big mouth she's got! and heer fingers are spaced finda far apart."

That's a man, baby!

Oneka
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Posted: 13th May 2006 16:51
Maybe she just looks like that...Ive seen some people who look like they dont speak right.....I mean she is kinda wierd...that was interesting....seems like that could be some kind of CG Movie...but if thats a Tech Demo for a game...I would like to play it ;P


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Posted: 13th May 2006 17:24
I'm pretty sure in big CG Movies they use lip synch tech then manually adjust all the movement by hand to get them perfect. Obviously that takes some serious man hours, but I think in order to push forwards game developers should be doing that, rather than relying on a plugin (as obviously they dont work very well). To be fair, in games, you probably only have a 10th of the lip synching required by a CG movie, so I don't really see any excuse for these big budget companies not doing that.

Raven
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Posted: 13th May 2006 22:32
It's down to time, money and such...
Remember CG Films are created over 3-4years with huge teams of people often meaning that each main character (those that talk) is worked on individually by a small team of an modeling artist, shader artist, texture artist, motion animator and lipsync animator.

For games, the budgeting is slightly different. Often the main characters are all done by 1 maybe 2 people for modeling and shading, then if you're lucky handed to an animator to do all of the in-game motion; if not then usually it's just another work-load.
On-top of this adveragely games are given 18-36months (1.5-2.5years) for development. Meaning you can't spend 3 weeks getting the lips to sync in one scene, you'll be expected to complete the model and animation within 1.

If it's a cut-scene often you're only given a few days to make it work.

Why do you think games now are getting shorter and shorter? We have the exact same development time with a ****-load more work to get it to look how gamers expect it to.

Having an engine that can do stuff like LipSyncing without a doubt is the way forward for game development; but unfortunately it seems to be one of those 'bottom of the pile' jobs on the HUGE list that usually needs to be sliced down to make deadlines.

Still in this case they had very little excuse given Indigo Prophecy shipped almost a year ago now.

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Posted: 13th May 2006 22:44
What ever happened to mouth motion capture?

adr
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Posted: 14th May 2006 00:29 Edited at: 14th May 2006 00:34
Quote: "i can't deny the fact that i felt some kinda emotion towards the end of the video."

I'm with you on that hexGEAR. If you look past the obvious imperfections in the CG, there are other things that make it emotional, like the dialogue or the direction. That's probably the first bit of believable acting I've ever seen in a game engine*. I must say, the tear took me by surprise as it did seem very realistic. I don't mean in terms of slight refraction - I mean in terms of motion.

I did like the DoF effects. Usually, when they're used in engine, they stand out by a mile - it's like they're put in there because they can ("Black" for example?). They actually added something to the cinematic feel of the cutscene then.

If I'm gonna pick, then I'll say there weren't any bullets in the gun.

*I do own HL2, but I have this thing about the roof barnacles. As soon as I recognised them (from the first game) I stopped playing, so I never got to see any of the acting in that game

-----

This has reminded me of an article I once read. If you look at her, you can instantly see that she's not real. However, there are certain elements which make you empathise with this animated character - her hair, for one. It looks real when she moves. The tears, the frustration in her voice. All that will tug at the back of your emotional brain, however slightly. But, the forefront of your brain is saying "she isn't real". So it's all good... if she was super realistic though, that'd creep you out a little : The Uncanny Valley makes for an intersting read.

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iv tryed everything!!!!!!!!!! could u please just add The gun and shooting Code thats All!!!!!!!!!
Raven
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Posted: 14th May 2006 01:00
Quote: "What ever happened to mouth motion capture?"


Can't say I've heard of it. In my experience mouth animation is done by manually doing the positions of each of the major sounds that a mouth makes and then using a text block and interpolation to string them together, asyncronously outputting onto the current animation. Generally to get those base movements using something like a mirror.

I'd suggest talking to your girl about this for more detail really.
It'd be exceptionally hard to mimic the motion of the facial muscles through bones, and a mocap would only really work if you used a cage mesh... but that said it'd be quite difficult to do I'd imagine. Given the number of points that would be needed on the face.

Often for a standard MoCap capture, you'd have around 30 balls. When you have too many it can corrupt the input; So you just use it to get the major extremities and motion then map to a skeleton, let IK take over adapting the rest to what's going on.

adr
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Posted: 14th May 2006 01:05
Facial mocap was used on King Kong (essentially, a lot like traditional mocap except there were about 20 balls on the face *giggle*). I guess it's only a matter of time before that technology becomes more affordable so that software houses can lease it.

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iv tryed everything!!!!!!!!!! could u please just add The gun and shooting Code thats All!!!!!!!!!
Raven
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Posted: 14th May 2006 01:10
I honestly don't see the point in MoCap most of the time.
Sure about 10years ago it was a great way of adding realism, but honestly with Dynamics, IK, and Soft-Body Engines now being part of 3D programs and games as near enough a standard... the only thing MoCap can provide are nuainces.

What's the point in spending an hour to set up MoCap, for 20minutes of shooting and then another few hours of cleap-up for something that would've take a quarter of the time manually with these features?

Silly getting all excited and creamy over technology that is now technically obsolete. But then again that's just my thoughts.

Mikey P
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Posted: 14th May 2006 01:20
I liked the pauses in speech, and some mistakes, it sounded more realistic, though I have to agree with the lip-syncing

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th May 2006 01:27 Edited at: 14th May 2006 01:28
The face looks realistic when it's not talking, especially with the camera zoomed up on it. Otherwise, lip sync looks silly, and I don't think the animation looks perfect either.


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MikeS
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Posted: 14th May 2006 02:34
I thought the lip syncing was decent. I mean, with her larger teeth that protude more forward, maybe that's just normal to have a more choppy lip.

Graphics were very impressive however though.

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Posted: 14th May 2006 02:42
And is that a spanish accent?


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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 14th May 2006 03:01
I could care less about the lip synching (really the only problem was sometimes the lips needed to appear to articulate some words a little more, though her accent seemed to suggest a very, err, flabby sort of mouth). HL2 had really good lip synching but honestly, the NPC interactions and conflicts that they served to drive were rather dull and just distracted from what I really wanted to do--own zombies. This game, however, while lacking in a couple areas has really given life to this woman. You get the idea that she's a little ditsy, but her performance gives you the thought that she is really determined to get into a main role despite never being able to get acting lessons. When she's talking about "knowing you were the one" and movie love stories her eyes do this thing where they look up and widen while she's smiling, it's very life-like, it reminds me of what you occasionally see women do when they're talking or thinking about a handsome movie star or something like that.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th May 2006 03:07
Why do people keep calling it a "game"? The ending splash screen says "acting tech demo" or something like that.


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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 14th May 2006 03:10
Because quantic dream makes games and until they tell me otherwise I'm going to call it a game.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 14th May 2006 03:42
The mouth ended beyond her lips like someone had slashed her mouth with a knife, and that created some of the problems like showing the wrong areas of her teeth, and distorting the face. If you ignore her head it looks real. It was like a really impressive cock up.

Peter H
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Posted: 14th May 2006 03:45
Quote: "18-36months (1.5-2.5years)"

i know everybody picks on Raven... but how is 36 months 2.5 years?

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hexGEAR
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Posted: 14th May 2006 09:29
Dude c'mon... don't start please

Quote: "I don't mean in terms of slight refraction - I mean in terms of motion"


Yeah i understand that some people have to jump the graphics barrier before they can really appreciate the emotion within a video clip like that. But you've all seen more realistic face models in prev-gen so you know that shouldn't really be a problem for these guys... maybe it was just some quick hack so they could show-off something at this years E3.

Wiggett
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Posted: 14th May 2006 09:36
hehe not to bash raven either, but are liandri studios backed by microsoft? or are you just using their logo's and artwork to promote your dev house?

The video was a tech demo, but it was to showcase something they are working on, and I'd assume it involves fluid movement, cause that was really nice (Save for the lips). Unless they are just making some sort of acting engine like I said before, to give other games models more fluid animation.

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Jeku
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Posted: 14th May 2006 20:56
Quote: "What's the point in spending an hour to set up MoCap, for 20minutes of shooting and then another few hours of cleap-up for something that would've take a quarter of the time manually with these features?"


I have *never* seen a decent, realistic CG animation that didn't use mocap. The nuances are captured with mocap, something that our brain can instantly pick up on if it's missing. I'm glad the companies spend time doing mocap, as it easily makes the games more realistic. I don't think motion can be done properly without mocap--- it is then usually under-animated or over-animated.

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th May 2006 21:57
I guess it varies with the game. Was Ratchet & Clank employing mocap? The animations looked super-fluid and full of life, perfect for the cartoony style of the game.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 14th May 2006 22:06
I'm not incredibly impressed. She is wearing a 12-sided shirt with no internal polygons so that her shirt disappeared at certain angles. Her eyes had reflections painted onto the texture (what!?) and I couldn't help but chuckle at how AVERAGE some of those graphics were right now. Isn't it ironic how she was talking about her life being boringly average?

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 14th May 2006 22:12
At the very end, it says physics by Ageia. Meaning it uses the PhysX. Why, when it supposedly has this fantastic Cell processor?

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TKF15H
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Posted: 14th May 2006 22:25
Quote: "At the very end, it says physics by Ageia. Meaning it uses the PhysX. Why, when it supposedly has this fantastic Cell processor?"

Erm... what does the Cell processor have to do with Physics? Motion still has to be calculated, and that's what PhysX does. Otherwise they'd have to use some other physics library (or make their own, but there isn't much point in that).

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 14th May 2006 22:30
Well, if it really was a super processor, it wouldn't need a Physx, right?

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Raven
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Posted: 15th May 2006 01:04
Quote: "I have *never* seen a decent, realistic CG animation that didn't use mocap. The nuances are captured with mocap, something that our brain can instantly pick up on if it's missing."


You'd be surprised actually.
Gollem for example, used MoCap for his basic motion and interaction; but then ALOT of his animation was done by hand still.
Many of to naunces for example are added later by hand.

Square Pictures also did huge amounts of their animation by hand.
Movement was controlled by MoCap, Hands and Faces were animated by key motions and Karma was used to patch it all together to make the motion realistic and interact with the environment which was often rendered seperate from the characters.

I mean don't get me wrong it can save alot of time, and is good for adding certain things.. but with Phsyics engines now being far better due to daily useage and the need for them to be updated on a global market scale rather than custom solutions. MoCap is really becomming fairly obsolete.

Quote: "At the very end, it says physics by Ageia. Meaning it uses the PhysX. Why, when it supposedly has this fantastic Cell processor?"


Perhaps because Aegis PhysX is a Physics Engine and Cell is a processor? Not to mention PhysX is in the hardware, and that hardware is capable of handling more throughput floating-point calculations within the dynamics and collision space passed directly from the graphics card than iirc Aegis saying 100 processors of equivilant speed.

Not to mention that the memory cut-downs in the Playstation3 version of the Cell mean that it's potencial falls damn short of what they advertised and in-fact makes it about on-par with the xbox360's processor. But don't let any of that detract from the real subject here.

Jeku
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Posted: 15th May 2006 04:27
Quote: "MoCap is really becomming fairly obsolete."


Hmmm-- funny, tell that to the company I work for who just built a multi-million dollar new mocap studio

I don't see how a physics engine can replace mocap tech, but that's just me.

hexGEAR
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Posted: 15th May 2006 07:04
Quote: "I don't see how a physics engine can replace mocap tech, but that's just me."


I'm sure at some point it will, isn't that kind of what SPORE is doing but on a very basic level? But mocap for the generic body and mocap for facial features are two seperate things.

The new-thing now is mixing both mocap and physics; check out NaturalMotion's Endorphin, might not be long before physics takes over.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 15th May 2006 11:32 Edited at: 15th May 2006 11:34
Endorphin is the dogs coconuts. Best physics I have ever seen.

£5495 oh soo cheap......

Raven
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Posted: 15th May 2006 11:58
Quote: "Hmmm-- funny, tell that to the company I work for who just built a multi-million dollar new mocap studio

I don't see how a physics engine can replace mocap tech, but that's just me."


iirc most of the games worked on where you are, are EA Sport titles.
Personally I've always found them to be quite poorly animated, as you have fluid motion of each animation, but they're all set-pieces that then looks all believeablity when linked together.

I know a number of artists don't share my veiws on MoCap, mainly because it can cut-down their workloads considerably; but honeslty I've never seen much of a point in the technology. There are only a number of limited sitations where I believe that it can honestly help over traditional animation techniques.

A football game for example is one of them, not because something like PhysX isn't capable of achieving the same movement; but because it's difficult to reproduce the motions of a footballer without understanding what they do to do what they do. For example, doing a faint backpass. It's just not something that can be reproduced easily in any other way... however for me someone who is getting shot apart by bullets is better to be done using a physics engine than some actor standing there pretending he's being shot.

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