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Geek Culture / What is the best free version of Linux? Why?

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The Lone Programmer
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Posted: 30th May 2006 23:21
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Well as my title says,
What is the best free version of Linux and why?

There is just so many versions of Linux floating around, but I have no idea which one is the best. I hate wasting 30 minutes downloading a useless 800mb+ download.

I am a Windows user, but I am considering installing Linux instead. Will I have any issues as far as drivers? I know I must download special programs for the system, almost as easy to find as Win32 programs?

I know about what Linux could do, but I just don't know the specs. Don't want to torture myself by installing it on a computer that wont support it. I also don't want to install it and find out that I cannot gather any of my old programs or similar.

Also,
I have two 250GB Hard Drives. Is it possible to install Windows on one drive and Linux on the other, but choose to run either whenever I choose? Like say one day I feel like running Windows. Can I just boot from my windows drive? Or vise-versa?

Windows allows you to have dual Windows operating systems on your PC, that allow you to choose at startup which one you want to boot. Usually it has like a timer and you move the arrows up or down to choose which one you want. When the timer runs out it chooses the selected. Will it work that way with Linux if I could have both operating systems?


Any and all information regarding Linux is highly appreciated.


Thanks,
The Lone Programmer

"Is The Juice Worth The Squeeze"
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Jeku
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Posted: 30th May 2006 23:32
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If you're not that experienced with Linux, I would suggest Ubuntu. It's by far the best for n00bs, and last time I checked it was the easiest to install and get things running.

Its package manager is great--- select the program/game you want installed and it downloads all dependencies and binaries for you. Same goes with uninstalling.


Automaton Games website has been revamped! Check it out!
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The Lone Programmer
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Posted: 30th May 2006 23:47
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Hmm,
Will it install Win32 games?

Like say I wanted to play Counter-Strike. Is that impossible?

I don't think I understood what you meant when you mentioned the package manager.

Ubuntu.... I will try to find a download link


Lone Programmer

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adr
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Posted: 30th May 2006 23:48
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I'm not gonna go into all the possible linux distributions, and what each one has over the other. To answer the main questions:

Quote: "I hate wasting 30 minutes downloading a useless 800mb+ download."

800MB distros are so 2003. Fedora Core 5 is 5 or 6 CDs if I remember correctly.

Quote: "Will I have any issues as far as drivers?"

The last driver issue I had was with Redhat 9 on a laptop. It was major - the o/s corrupted the partition because the driver for the HDD controller was bugged. However, these days, driver issues are scarce. Although it's possible to play games under linux, I wouldn't bother. That's what Windows is for

Quote: "I know I must download special programs for the system, almost as easy to find as Win32 programs?"

Everything you need to get started will come with the CDs. There are very easy routes to downloading problems (namely, yum), less easy routes (RPMs in general) and the most akward way - compiling from source.

Quote: "Is it possible to install Windows on one drive and Linux on the other, but choose to run either whenever I choose?"

WindowsXP, rather rudely, will overwrite the master boot record when you install it. I've never had any experience in dealing with dual booting between windows operating systems, so all I can assume is that WinXP only trashes non-MS products. Bet your ass that if you try and install WinXP on top of a linux system, you'll loose the GRUB loader.

When you install a linux distribution, most will give you the option of installing a boot loader - something which lets you choose the operating system to load on boot.

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adr
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Posted: 30th May 2006 23:50
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Quote: "Will it install Win32 games?"

You wouldn't try to run excel on an xbox, so why try and play games on Linux? WinXP is a great toy OS; second to none for playing games. Let windows do what it does best, and Linux do what it does best.

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Toby Quan
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Posted: 31st May 2006 00:23
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What does Linux do best?
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soapyfish
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Posted: 31st May 2006 00:55
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Freeness

<º))))><.·´¯`·.Here's to the crazy ones¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>
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adr
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Posted: 31st May 2006 01:12 Edited at: 31st May 2006 01:20
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Quote: "What does Linux do best? "

I'll assume that was a genuine question, rather than trying to incite a flamewar. I'll answer it in good faith .... I'm sure you appreciate my sceptical preface.

I prefer to do all my development work under Linux if I can help it. There's something about the Linux environment that feels productive. I think it's mainly the shell environment that does it. Everything seems to be geared towards doing things quickly and effectively... tail, grep, awk/sed, vi/m, process piping - put them all together and you've got a very quick and dirty development environment.

Most of the development tools (Eclipse, ZDE, etc) and server software (Apache/Tomcat, PHP, MySQL, PostgreSQL, etc) have been ported to windows, so it's not out of necessity - more of a preference.

There's also an element of integration. All the crappy little shell scripts that come with a package do have their windows equivalent, but for some reason, running a shell tool in WinXP always seems more cumbersome.

I also like how configurable it is. If your machine isn't capable of running a GUI, then it's not necessary - just don't start X and yer laughing. It's as lightweight as you like, but a small distribution footprint doesn't preclude features. That's why you can get Linux on a budget NAS whereas you wouldn't stand a chance with getting Windows on there. The cheapest £50 server available? Probably.

I'm not a 100% born again linux fan, no matter what it might sound like. Sometimes, I wish Linux had Windows' plug and play attitude. The communities are elitist and documentation isn't always idiot proof. On your very frequent trips to google, you'll get the feeling of "If you don't know how to use Linux, you shouldn't be using it"

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SirFire
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Posted: 31st May 2006 01:14 Edited at: 31st May 2006 01:17
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Quote: "What does Linux do best?"


It's best at giving you headaches and improving your google skills while you try to figure it out.

However, if by some miracle you get it all configured properly (10 days later), you will have the knowledge to hack the planet.

I'm kidding, but not really.

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The Lone Programmer
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Posted: 31st May 2006 02:37
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LOL...

I am a bit confused.

Can Linux handle Win32 software? Like does it have some kind of program that knows how to run .exe files?

You say you like to use Linux to develop stuff. Does it work with all languages such as Visual Basic, C++, Pascal?

For graphics I will assume it uses OpenGL?

I think as far as "what Linux does best part," I think I recall Linux being brilliant as far as servers. I think I heard that a Linux server can run far more superior than a Windows server. Correct?

It doesn't appear that Red Hat Linux is free. I consider that to be the most well known Linux, but I have never found a free download of it.

I am in the process of downloading a 4GB Debian Linux. Looks rather good. Maybe I could get your opinions.

One day if I wanted to host a freeserver for an MMORPG or dedicated CS server which would be the best for me? Windows or Linux?

adr
I probably wouldn't use excel on an xbox, but just knowing I could would be worth it. Same for Linux. Maybe its not the best for running games, but since I could run them, then its far better than Windows. I do like your analogy though.


Keep up the posts guys and maybe I will be convinced to switch to Linux. Windows gives me too much problems.


Thanks,
The Lone Programmer

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SirFire
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Posted: 31st May 2006 03:17
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Quote: "Can Linux handle Win32 software?"


If you install Wine you can run *some* windows software.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 31st May 2006 04:09 Edited at: 31st May 2006 04:10
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What does XP do best? (nvm :0, don't answer...)

Quote: "800MB distros are so 2003. Fedora Core 5 is 5 or 6 CDs if I remember correctly."

CD's are SOOOO 2003 It's BlueRay now.


Quote: "One day if I wanted to host a freeserver for an MMORPG or dedicated CS server which would be the best for me? Windows or Linux?"

FCore. Don't know why but ADR supports it like crazy for servers. Something about hardware managment and low system usage I think... can't remeber exactally but this was in one of the 'I Wanna Start a Server' threads.

HOWEVER, unless you can find a linux CS version, it probally would be better to keep it windows 32 (or 64 ) because imulators slowdown stuff.

We all have our inner noob. Join the NJL, and have more fun!
I believe society is flawed; our notions on life, on child rearing, stem too far back to be of relevance in this day and time.
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Steve J
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Posted: 31st May 2006 05:19 Edited at: 31st May 2006 05:22
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haha adr, Fcore is sooooo not low level. I use debian for my server needs. Only takes 2 days to configure after the 5th install! (memorized options). Actually Merranvo, Linux wouldnt support blueray, its too expensive. THey are just now starting extensive DVD d/l support

The Lone Programmer: NO NO NO NO NO! Dont d/l Debian on your first time, or you will die, especially with some of the questions you are asking! You are not near experienced enough for a good debian install that is partly usable! Redhat enterprise isnt free, but redhat 9/8 is free. Mainly Python, Perl, C++, web languages, ect are the Linux stuff. VB is a ms product. Wine is *ok*, but I dont think you are ready for the win32 crossover features from crossover office and wine. It does use Opengl. Linux servers use less resources, thus beat windows servers by long shots. I would suggest you try SuSe 10.1 linux, it is beginner friendly. For a server like multiplayer? Linux if you are advnaced enough, windows if you arent. Oh dear, Oh dear, oh dear. Dont switch to linux because you hate windows, as that will only give you more issues. Switch when you feel windows isnt customisable enough, or you have reached your tech limit on windows. You dont know a computer really until you move out of the kitty box (Windows, or OSX (when you are less advanced on it). You will feel much more confident.

edit: You cant dual boot from different HDD's, just different partitions.

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Tachyon
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Posted: 31st May 2006 07:31
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Quote: ""What does Linux do best? ""


Takes care of communication between hardware and software components, runs programs and shares them resources, just like windows' kernel. But it does it better
'Linux' itself is not a full operating system (gnu/linux maybe), so it does the same as any other kernel would do, the main issue is not what linux can do, but what others (software&game developers) will do for linux.

btw. you can run CSS in linux smoothly using Cedega, it's around few pounds per month. It manages to run a lot of other windows games too, mostly the popular ones.

Quote: "Switch when you feel windows isnt customisable enough"

They (microsoft) say that windows Vienna (afteer Vista) wont have a startbutton style of thinking, woot! Reading it from wikipedia gives me the impression they have had finally the time to borrow (then patent?) some innovations from KDE and OS X.

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ionstream
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Posted: 31st May 2006 07:41
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Quote: "What does XP do best? (nvm :0, don't answer...)"


It does games, user end software (non production), etc. The only thing that Linux has over Windows is its serving-ability, ie, Apache.

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The Lone Programmer
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Posted: 31st May 2006 10:02
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Microsoft already has plans for a new operating system after Vista? I would assume that they would focus on one thing before they move to another. But then again, maybe that is why they are going down hill.

Windows XP for me has been a great let down. It honestly seems to be rather slow. Sure everything is organized nice a pretty, and things couldn't be easier to do, but compared to such operating systems as Windows 2000 Professional, it is crap.

Until you meantioned they were creating an OS titled Vienna (if it's true), I was hoping that Vista would solve all of my problems. Faster boot, quicker load times, less processes being used, support for interchangable 32bit and 64bit (installs the operating system that matches what your bit rate is). Maybe it still will save me from XP. Or maybe it will kill Microsoft off.

Ok I have decided through the posts that I should not use Debian. Probably about two of the posts tell me of Linux software that would be good for me. Is there any other opinions to back these guys up? Anyone have an opinion on a Linux OS they like that is easy to use?

I just want to download a good solid version of Linux in case of a last resort (Microsoft becomes destroyed and the world ends). I know I would rather die before I use Apple technology. The only thing Apple ever did good in my opinion is the iPod. As for their computers and OS, well I use them at school and they make me very frustrated.


Keep up the posts guys I appreciated it,
The Lone Programmer

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adr
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Posted: 31st May 2006 10:54 Edited at: 31st May 2006 11:09
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What the hell? I go to sleep and I'm misquoted all over the shop.
Quote: "FCore. Don't know why but ADR supports it like crazy for servers."

I'll advocate Linux for server based stuff, but not specifically Fedora Core. I grew up on Redhat 6/7/8/9 and RHEL 3/4, so it's natural for me to use Fedora Core as my desktop solution.

Quote: "haha adr, Fcore is sooooo not low level."

I mentionned Fedora Core once, and that was in quoting distro size. My post at 23:12 described how configurable Linux was. You'll see how when I'm talking about Linux in general, as a collection of packages, I'll use the word "Linux". Never once did I say "OMGPONIES FEDORA ROCKS! j00R D1STR0 SUXXXX"

Incidentally, Steve J you do realise that Linux in general can be configured beyond the wallpaper that appears when you log in? Just because we use Fedora Core on all our servers here at work doesn't mean they all pop up with some kinda anthropamorhic paper clip when you fire em up. We pick a standard server install, then roll out our own RPM-based patches to remove unnecessary stuff... like X and Gnome. Of course, the added bonus that all our development machines can run the same distro means that testing is a little step closer to a consistent environment.

Quote: "You are not near experienced enough for a good debian install that is partly usable!"

Refer to my comments earlier about the Linux community.

My recommendation for The Lone Programmer would be to use (as Jeku suggested) Ubuntu or Mandrake. I've used Mandrake once and I hated it, but it is very simple to set up. The long and short of it is that there isn't any real difference between distros once you get set up. It's all about how they present that setup to the customer. Gentoo is very different to a Live CD Distro, but once they're running, they provide the same functionality. It's all about how focused you are on configuration, speed, etc.

--- EDIT

Xandros might be your best bet. I've never used it, but a colleague bought it and said it had the best built in support for windows apps. They must've spent some time pre-configuring wine or something. I think it costs money though ...

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Gowmars
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Posted: 31st May 2006 12:01
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Yes you can set up a dual boot with windows and Linux. You just have to make sure you install windows first, and Linux second and when you install Linux it will configure the boot loader to where when you boot up your computer it will ask you which OS you want to boot into.
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Toby Quan
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Posted: 31st May 2006 14:18
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@adr

Thanks for your response. As technology enthusiast, I was genuinely interested in what Linux could do best. Your information was very well presented.

I've never used anything recently besides Windows and Visual Studio for development. Because I love programming so much, I'm fascinated by things like Java and linux.
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Represent
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Ubuntu pwns... period.


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Steve J
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Posted: 1st Jun 2006 06:09 Edited at: 1st Jun 2006 06:18
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Ubuntu is an ok distro, especially since it is based on my favorite linux distro.

@adr: Yes, I know this, but I did not actually know if you were just a linux enthuisiust (who it takes forever to convince that you can do that stuff without years and years of coding..), or someone who has actually used it beyond basic labels. Besides, using debian doesnt count for crap in the linux community?0.o You roll out your own rpm patches?!? Doesnt Fcore come with the option to remove gfx system for a cmd based option? I think even mandriva can do that...

edit: ADR it was a joke (about fedora)

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ionstream
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I have gotten Wine to play Counter Strike Condition Zero, and there are others who have gotten Source to work, but its not that simple. Wine is really coming along in its DirectX support (then when 10 comes out, its back to the drawing board ).


Debian isn't that hard to install, it gives you alot of on-screen help when you boot from the disk.

Fedora Core and SUSE are very similar, both nice for the inexperienced Linux starter. Suse is a bit more pleasant to look at, I don't know why. Its package manager, however, is a pain to use. I couldn't figure out how to get GCC installed on it. Fedora was much easier, but was missing many packages from it's system. Ah well, I like compiling stuff anyways .

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The Lone Programmer
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In the process of downloading:
- Fedora Core
- Ubuntu
- Mandriva

I looked at a picture of Mandriva and the theme looks like it resembles Windows. I think that might be best for me. I mean, I have never used Linux before, and since it looks like Windows, I may be able to take is slow with that one. I could be mistaken though.

Bittorrent is a life saver. Thanks to Bittorrent I am downloading each of these 3GB Linux's at 600kbps. I usually have an erratic 400-5000mbps download without Bittorrent, but it stays constant with it. I highly suggest using a torrent program when download a Linux.

As for the dual boot OS's with Linux and Windows.... Will this work for dual hard drives or must both be installed to the same hard drive? It may be nice to be able to switch between the two whenever I feel like it. I mean I do have some monsterous hard drives which I will probably never run out of space on.

Just keep up on the Linux opinions. I appreciate them. And if anyone has any other favorite Linux's let me hear why you think they are so great.

Thanks,
The Lone Programmer

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adr
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Posted: 1st Jun 2006 11:05
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Quote: "edit: ADR it was a joke (about fedora)"

Ahh - sorry. I thought it was almost too good to be true that you practically proved my point about the "elitist" approach the Linux community seems to adopt.

Quote: "using debian doesnt count for crap in the linux community"

I think Debian's problem is that it falls somewhere in between the desktop market and server market. It doesn't strike me as being pitched for the desktop (vs Ubuntu, Fedora, Mandrake) which makes it go towards a server setup. As for server setups, you've got to compete with CentOS/RHEL which seem to have a lot more credibility in terms of commerical application. I think it's problem is that it falls inbetween the gaps in the market.

Quote: "Doesnt Fcore come with the option to remove gfx system for a cmd based option"

Uhhmm... I think it's an install option. I imagine just unticking 'X' in the install configurator would do the trick. Basically our installation policy involves a lot of rpm -e and rpm -i. Which, to be honest, is the nicest possible way of setting stuff up. We've got our own Kernal Patches, PHP/Apache/MySQL RPMs just to make a setup extra-repeatable.

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Steve J
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Posted: 1st Jun 2006 17:50 Edited at: 1st Jun 2006 17:51
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Neh, were not elite, were 1337 . That is a problem for Debain, but with over 1 million packages available, a customizable option to go torwards desktop OR server, it is a good mix, if you want to spend the time to make it that way. Also on the last part, I meant using rpm, so that works. And yes, that is the nicest possible way of doing it. I personally am modding the source for knoppix right now to help fit my needs (the ability to run music from an old pc with a 700mhz processor, and 128mb ram, with a 250mb hdd), but that hasnt turned out to successful, as I am not a pwning linux coder by any means whatsoever...

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Seppuku Arts
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Ah yes, Linux, I was thinking of installing it (So I can keep my files safe if I have problems) but I am curious to as of how I would install it, do I have to partition my hard drive or some crap like that, or doesn't it install like a program?

&#22818;&#12398;&#28023;&#12395;&#30446;&#35226;&#12417;&#12427;&#12371;&#12392; - Into the sea of waking dreams - I am by John Clare
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ionstream
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Quote: "Will this work for dual hard drives or must both be installed to the same hard drive?"


Dual hard drives are fine, they should be detected by the distribution's installation program. If not, I can help you with modifying the bootloader configuration file.


Quote: "Just keep up on the Linux opinions."


I have an opinion: KDE. Its a desktop environment (what Steve J called a graphics system) that really rocks the house, oldschool. If you're going to get it, the version you really want to get is one that's greater than or equal to 3.5. Unfortunately, this version isn't widely available, I dont think Debian even has this yet in its package system. Once you get KDE, you should get KDevelop. KDevelop is a greate IDE for a bunch of different programming languages (although no C# yet).

If you're going to be using Konqueror as your web browser, get Mplayer and then KMplayer so that you can play video within the browser.

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Steve J
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meh, inaccurate descriptions is what I do. Obviously you have never used the latest version of debian Ionstream, as it is downloadable, but only comes with 3.3 default (with the really awesome default KDE theme) . KDE is much, much better than gnome, to say the least

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Freddy 007
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I have a question regarding this.

Next year it'll be high school(or the Danish equivalent ) for me, and I'll be using my laptop an awful lot for school purposes. I won't play any games or such on it. And I'm using OpenOffice anyways, so I won't be missing Microsoft Office. Now the question is, is Linux better/as good as Windows when I'm only using it for school?

Thanks


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adr
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Quote: "Now the question is, is Linux better/as good as Windows when I'm only using it for school"

You need to provide a subject on which you can compare Linux and Windows. Is linux as Good as windows when ... what? What is it that you do at school? If you're just using open office, then I'd say it's much worse than Windows. If something went wrong with your windows install, you'd probably be able to fix it. If you're new to linux, then it'll just be a headache.


Quote: "KDE is much, much better than gnome, to say the least"

All you KDE'ers are the same. You won't put into words what's "better" about KDE, you'll just say "because it is".

I'd say KDE is nothing more than bloated, system hogging eye-candy. But that might be classed as an unfounded, sweeping generalisation...

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Steve J
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2006 17:43
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I said it is better than gnome.

Diagran:

Command Line < X < KDE < Gnome < Custom Desktop Environment < ect

The fancy system is KDE, and I like it, but if I needed to use linux to get work done, at work (aka server, client linux, ect), then I would use a cmd interface. All I need to cmd, but when at home I like to use something easy, and I dont care about the system resources. That reminds me that I need to recompile Debian source and drivers... just got new gfx.

Wii rules.
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blanky
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@Steve J:

Quote: "Command Line < X < KDE < Gnome < Custom Desktop Environment < ect"


That diagram makes no sense. I thought you were supporting KDE, not Gnome.. And nearly all graphical stuff on Linux uses X. Including KDE and Gnome, definitely.

Is your diagram an attempt at 'which is better than which', or which relies on what...?

... installing gentoo ...
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Steve J
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damn it, wrong way

I should watch what I post in the morning

Command Line > X > KDE > Gnome > Custom Desktop Environment > ect

As there is no edit post...

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2006 09:21
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Quote: "edit: You cant dual boot from different HDD's, just different partitions."


Yes you can... that I how I manage dual boots, you merly change the boot drive in the bios menu [or if you have a nifty bios you press like f5 for boot options]

@ADR: My post was refrencing a post at a much latter time (several posts actually) which in all you recommended FCore [I believe[

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I believe society is flawed; our notions on life, on child rearing, stem too far back to be of relevance in this day and time.
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Represent
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2006 19:29
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There is LILO which boots before all OS and is commandline asking for which boot. (ex. windows or linux)


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Steve J
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2006 19:31
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I prefer grub. Ah, merranvo, I never knew that (never needed too). Thanks, that will help with my new 300gb hdd. I am simply more used to using the bootloader itself to specify what the OS options are.

Wii rules.
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Tachyon
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2006 20:30
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Quote: "commandline asking for which boot"

hmm... most distros come with grub using pretty graphical menu with options.

Ofcourse, you can for example boot windoze in grub - where hd* is your HD number - using these commands:
rootnoverify (hd0,0)
makeactive
chainloader +1
boot

But it's easier just to select which to boot using arrowkeys.

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ionstream
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2006 20:33
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That configuration should already be in grub.conf. In fact, you can only select it in the boot menu if it's in grub.conf.

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