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Geek Culture / Can a Parrot think?

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Philip
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 14:15
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_%28parrot%29

Very interesting article and most thought-provoking too. See also the links to Koko the great ape, who can use a primitive version of sign language.

All this begs some fundamental ethical questions about our treatment of higher level animals.

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dark coder
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 14:35
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well i would have to see it to believe it really, i very often to on tv some 'wonder dog' that can apparently spell words by picking out fluffy alphabet toys, i wont why everyone thinks thats amazing, if you watch the dog just scans through everything unstill the owner goes ohh good boy!....

however parrots are different since they can almost talk i guess, but still i wouldent call them inteligent, could this parrot teach other parrots the same thing? do parrots have there own language?(other than some basic calling or in danger sounds) so im still a sceptic but its still interesting.

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Jess T
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 18:30
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I'd say that alot of animals are alot more intelligent than we give them credit for.

Most 'smart' animals are self-aware and use the environment to their advantage (apes and tools, birds and poking sticks (for food inside trees) ).

It's fun to watch documentaries on kids as they get older (as their brain capacity increases), especially around the time that the learn to infer knowledge, or as they can predict what will happen, and use abstract thinking to determin results. And their ability to lie for self-presivation... That's always a kicker!

A good one is for the babies, you show an object, then hide it under a cup - To them, it just suddenly ceased to exist! As they get older, the kids are all "What? That's supposed to impress me? That thing's still under there, just because I can no longer actually tell it's there, I know there's no-where else for it to go! Now... Lemme play!"

A Parrot that can mimic language..?
I'm not sure if it's understanding, or if it's simply repeating for the reward. At any rate, I wouldn't be surprised (but most definatly wowed) if birds do hold a style of intelligence comparable to our own (and Dolphin's of course!)

Ahh, the wonders of nature, how beatiful she is.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 19:12
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Quote: "All this begs some fundamental ethical questions about our treatment of higher level animals."


We kill dogs because we don't want to pay for the medicine. We drown cattle to be buttchered as meat. Our idea of a good time is to buy a gun and shoot the hell out of some innocent animal.

I don't think we give a crap about how smart the animals are... and if it was proven that we were idiots compared to parrots we probally would kill all the parrots.


Denial and superioritism... two small words yeilding very frightening results.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 20:06
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Can a parrot think?... not a well thought out title...

It seems to have a limited intelligence, but with a poor memory. Only getting something right 80% of the time would be poor for a human. It is also doing something repeatedly, and so the intelligence is good for only a couple of subjects...

What is on a tray...
What would you like to eat...

so introducing more subjects would not be easy. Good for a parrot with a small brain, but how intelligent is that?

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Jeku
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 21:53
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Quote: "Our idea of a good time is to buy a gun and shoot the hell out of some innocent animal."


Time and time again you put your ignorance on display

I believe parrots mimic, but there is no reason why some birds are not as smart as some apes. I saw a bird on Google Video standing by some water trying to catch a fish. Finally after a few minutes he grabbed some bread from the dock, dropped it into the water, and when a fish went to grab the bread the bird nabbed the fish. This would prove a thinking ability.


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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 22:43
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Quote: "Very interesting article and most thought-provoking too. See also the links to Koko the great ape, who can use a primitive version of sign language."

Koko can lie, too. One time she pooped on the rug and actually blamed a photographer in the room. I'm sure all animals would lie if they were smart enough.

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Essal
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 22:46
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I am 100% with Merranvo on this one,

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ionstream
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 22:51
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Quote: "I don't think we give a crap about how smart the animals are... and if it was proven that we were idiots compared to parrots we probally would kill all the parrots."


Maybe you do, but I sure don't. Stop classifying people into one entity as if we all had something to do with it; there's good people and then there's bad people.

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David T
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 23:02
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The Life of Pi is a good read on the subject, the beginning has some very compelling and interesting arguments on zoos and zoomorphism.

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SageTech
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 23:02
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So long, and thanks for all the fish...

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 25th Jun 2006 23:49
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... don't panic.

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Philip
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 01:44
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@Pincho Paxton

Quote: "Only getting something right 80% of the time would be poor for a human."


Oh yeah? Well look at the success record of a lot of the forumgoers on here. Some of us would be delighted to reach 80%.

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 02:52
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Not to mention the average score for the Arizona Instrument to Measure Standards is less than failing.


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Dave J
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 03:17
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Quote: "A Parrot that can mimic language..?
I'm not sure if it's understanding, or if it's simply repeating for the reward."


It's not mimicking though, it's responding to questions with the correct answer, as if to show it understands what the words mean.


"Computers are useless, they can only give you answers."
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 07:32
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Quote: "Only getting something right 80% of the time would be poor for a human."

Hey for that average we give people a B-
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Oddmind
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 08:29
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parrots can think of course they can... but to communicate in OUR human ways of communication is difficult. Hes fluent in parrot tactics, but adopting charactaristics of humans is obviously challenging...

Its basically just like running a 3d app on a 500mhz processor or something like that... its gonna lag up but you get the idea of what stuff looks like ect.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 19:17
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The GameCube has a 450mhz processor... bad comparison.

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Saikoro
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 19:43
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The GameCube is strictly to run games. PCs arent. They have to run Windows


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 19:48
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Quote: "Quote: "Our idea of a good time is to buy a gun and shoot the hell out of some innocent animal."

Time and time again you put your ignorance on display"

Jeku... I pity you for your sheltered life... clearly you have not seen man at his 'best'.


Quote: "Maybe you do, but I sure don't. Stop classifying people into one entity as if we all had something to do with it; there's good people and then there's bad people."


I say we because in some way or another a very vast majority of humanity kills in one way or another. Vermin, we have thousands of products to kill what we don't want. Granted they are disease carrying little pricks but still... When was the last time you saw roadkill? I have seen people run strait over the animal, brake... then keep going. The animal has been run over and the best you can do is keep going?

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Saikoro
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 19:52
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It's your life or theirs. Would you swerve and put yourself in danger for a coyote, or would you keep on going through? I agree that there are some things in human nature that haven't been changed, but what can you do? It's a dog eat dog world. However, you cant lump everyone into the "killing innocent animals with a gun" thing because, guess what, the majority of people don't. There was a meth dealer down the street from my house, therefore you must be a meth dealer. It just doesn't work, flawed logic.


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 20:11 Edited at: 26th Jun 2006 20:18
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Quote: "It's your life or theirs. Would you swerve and put yourself in danger for a coyote, or would you keep on going through?"

Brake, change lanes...
Oh... do you know that we should have people on REAL hazard courses instead of the simple 'can you drive' course? This retard going 45MPH+ on a 30MPH street honks his horn, over swerves while I turn... you change bloody lanes. My ass was out of the his lane before he even began his idiotic swerve and he is yelling about me nearly causing an accedent. HE was the one speeding and HE was the one who did not take an accedent avoidance class.

You never swerve unless needed (it does help to kill your speed)... just change lanes and brake.

Now lets change this a little... there is a 7 year old kid running in the road dressed up as an Aardvark. Do you
A) run him over and keep going
B) run him over and stop to help
C) Try your best to stop and get out of the way.


And by the way... I AM the meth dealer down the street. *waves*

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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 22:45
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Quote: "Jeku... I pity you for your sheltered life... clearly you have not seen man at his 'best'."


And this coming from you? I was referring to your "shoot the hell out of animals" statement. If you're referring to hunters, then you are incorrect. I can only assume you have never hunted before, of which I have, and I know that hunters don't "shoot the hell" out of anything.

It's English. Lern it.

It's spelled accident.


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BatVink
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 22:56
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Quote: "Only getting something right 80% of the time would be poor for a human"


If only!!! I second Philip's statement up above, I reckon the success rate for projects around here is < 30%.



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ionstream
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 23:18 Edited at: 26th Jun 2006 23:18
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Quote: "I say we because in some way or another a very vast majority of humanity kills in one way or another. Vermin, we have thousands of products to kill what we don't want."


Bugs don't count (more or less), and the rest are usually killed rather humanely. But again, it's the bad people who hurt these creatures, not humanity in general. I've saved quite a few birds and such who would've died without my help at the hands of my merciless cats. Now that's not a humane death.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 26th Jun 2006 23:25
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You mean delievered a lethal injection along with a sedative? Most of the time just because people don't want to pay for the treatments?

"Hey Teddy, I know your only 6 but we can't afford to pay your leukemia medicine... so we will kill you instead."

Quote: "It's English. Lern it.

It's spelled accident."

It's spelled learn.

Quote: "And this coming from you? I was referring to your "shoot the hell out of animals" statement. If you're referring to hunters, then you are incorrect. I can only assume you have never hunted before, of which I have, and I know that hunters don't "shoot the hell" out of anything. "

It is called a hyperbole.

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Izzy545
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 00:28 Edited at: 27th Jun 2006 00:31
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Quote: "
"Hey Teddy, I know your only 6 but we can't afford to pay your leukemia medicine... so we will kill you instead.""


Right, so if we can't pay for an animals treatment let it die a long, painful death. Because that's obviously the humane thing to do

My dog was blind and had multiple tumors all over his body. We couldn't afford to pay the bills to get all the tumors removed so we put it to sleep. Is that not humane to put it out of its misery?

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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 01:42
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Quote: "It's spelled learn."


Does the word ironic mean anything to you? It was a joke.


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 02:56 Edited at: 27th Jun 2006 02:56
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Izzy if the dog was human would you do the same. Would you shun all hope of pulling through and just pull the plug? In medicine the hippocratic oath says

Quote: "I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work."


And as I interpret it, you shall not kill or provide means to kill. Putting a dog to sleep is the same as killing it. So the dog is suffering... Life is suffering, there are ways to overcome this suffering. Give the dog seditives and asprin... but don't outright kill it. If I may provide another example...

Grandma's on her death bed... she has only a few days to live... instead of waiting it out you say your goodbyes and quickly pull grandmas plug... assisting in the deed if needed.

Quote: "Does the word ironic mean anything to you? It was a joke. "

No.. Jieke... I don't think it was... I think... it was the cheese!

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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 03:12
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Dude, you can't compare putting a dog to sleep to putting your grandma to sleep

And when you put a dog to sleep, it doesn't suffer. That's the whole point of putting it to sleep--- to stop its suffering.


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 03:26
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Quote: "Dude, you can't compare putting a dog to sleep to putting your grandma to sleep "


Why not? Are we 'better' then dogs? Are we 'superior' and thus should KNOW what to do with them?

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Izzy545
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 03:35
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Why not? Are we 'better' then dogs? Are we 'superior' and thus should KNOW what to do with them?"


Yes, we are better than dogs. I don't see dogs learning physics, calculus, or doing engineering anytime soon. Don't get me wrong, I love dogs, but to put them on the same level as a human being is silly.

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ionstream
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 03:39
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Quote: "Why not? Are we 'better' then dogs? Are we 'superior' and thus should KNOW what to do with them?"


Of course we are!

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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 03:45
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Quote: "Why not? Are we 'better' then dogs? Are we 'superior' and thus should KNOW what to do with them?"


I'm not going to argue with you, as you argue simply for the sake of it. But yes, we are "better" than dogs, and to think otherwise would be foolish.


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 04:34
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Sighs... I was meaning it as a point of superiority. Are we so much better that we can decide their fate… kill who we want? Not as who is smarter, dogs may have a level of reasoning and logic but, as said, we are advanced in ways they are not.

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Dave J
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 04:45
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If you could save one child or 5 dogs, which would you do?


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Black Mesa
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 05:58
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This reminds me of a special they did on 60 minutes about ALF (Animal Liberation Front) who thinks its ok to bomb buildings and kill people because they are using animals to better humans. Personally I think that thinking is completly idiotic. Im not saying we should torture animals and we should avoid hurting them if possible but we also need to provide for ourselves.

Quote: "Are we so much better that we can decide their fate… kill who we want?"


Native americans killed animals so that they could eat them and use their by products, putting down a dog to help it seems far better than killing an animal for yourself. By this same tolken why dont we just drop off the face of the earth if we cant kill anything? Plants have feelings too!

Sure animals may be really smart and they may have feelings and what not but face it, we are superior in most aspects. We may not be able to go toe to toe with a bear but using our intelligence we have created weapons which allow us to. I invite any animal, intelligent or not, if they want to try and tackle us, then bring it on. When lab rats build a death ray and erradicate all humans I will admit that they are superior, but not until then.
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Izzy545
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 06:45
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Quote: "When lab rats build a death ray and erradicate all humans I will admit that they are superior, but not until then."


Anyone ever watch Pinky and the Brain when that was on?

Quality television. Quality.

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ionstream
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 08:07
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Narf!

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Jess T
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 13:28
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Quote: "If you could save one child or 5 dogs, which would you do?"


The dogs, of course!
Unless the kid could make me money... But, then again, the dogs could make me money too

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 27th Jun 2006 21:01
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Depends on the child and the dogs. A millionaire's lost son or some mutts... hmm....

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