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Geek Culture / qwerty vs dvorak

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Kenjar
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 03:15
What is dvorak? Dvorak referes to a keyboard layout that is far more efficant than the current qwerty layout.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fingerworks-Touchstream-LP-keyboard-trackpad-DVORAK_W0QQitemZ200004073727QQihZ010QQcategoryZ51083QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

The reason that QWERTY became the established keyboard layout back in the 1860's was because typewriters of the time where very easy to jam if the typist was too fast on the keys. So QWERTY was designed specifically to slow down the typist. If you look at the layout of the keys and the way you type you will notice that your fingers move all over the place. This is in fact intentional, and became the standard.

In 1930 the Dvorak layout was invented, putting commonly pressed keys closer together, meaning less finger movement around the keyboard, thus increasing potintial typing speed. But with 60 years of use, the QWERTY design was too intrenched and thus unmoveable. So today we are lumbered as standard with a highly, and purposefully inefficant keyboard layout.

CattleRustler
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 03:44
heres a dvorak layout thats not an ebay sale item
http://members.networld.com/dvorak/right_and_left_hand_dvorak_layouts.jpg

Quote: "design was too intrenched and thus unmoveable"

that'd be "ENtrenched and IMMovable"
altho the words you used are indeed words, not all definitions apply to what you meant.

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Steam Assassin
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 05:40
It would be difficult to type with it after learning how to use QWERTY, but I can see how it would be easier to start with.

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Izzy545
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 08:10
Dvorak is definitely the way to go. I can type up to 120 WPM as opposed to 100 max before. I also don't strain my wrists as much when typing for long periods of time. It takes a while to adjust, but now it's QWERTY that's hard for me.

The first few days are fun when you have a QWERTY keyboard and are trying to type in Dvorak. Took me like 5 minutes to type a couple words when I first started

Kenjar
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 11:17
Just think back to the first time you ever used a QWERTY keyboard, I don't know about everyone else, but I was constantly using the "hunt and peck" method. Meaning my little eyes (I was about 6 I think) were constantly fixed on the keys with my hands moving all over the place trying to find they key I wanted! I wonder, with the more efficant design of Dvorak, if I'd have found learning typing for the first time less tiresom. I'm seriousally thinking of getting a Dvorak, and seeing if it's easier to type on. I have no doubt that I could learn it, though I admit it would be long and frustrating to being with. But it's really just a matter of practice and I type all day!

Fallout
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 12:36
The only problem now is, where ever you go to work you have to buy yourself another Dvorak keyboard, or ship one around with you wherever you go.

Arkheii
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 12:53
Meh, it breaks the keyboard shortcut layouts I'm used to.

Kenjar
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 13:14
Quote: "The only problem now is, where ever you go to work you have to buy yourself another Dvorak keyboard, or ship one around with you wherever you go. "


I am sure that you could learn to use them both.

Arkheii
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 13:36
Quote: "I am sure that you could learn to use them both."


Or just set up WinXP language settings.

One handed Dvorak is a blast on the PocketPC, I'm gonna practice this one ^__^

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 17:13
Don't think I'll be doing anything other then qwerty.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 17:16
I'm too old to change my layout. Using QWERTY for 35 years makes it impossible to change.

Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 17:18
Azerty for me all the way.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 17:35 Edited at: 4th Jul 2006 17:40
Quote: "I'm too old to change my layout. Using QWERTY for 35 years makes it impossible to change."


No the attitude that you can't change is what will defeat you. Geez the only point in your life when you won't be able to learn anything new or change is when you're burried in the grave.

What you are really saying is "I don't want to" which is at least understandable.

How's this for a weird design?



Megaton Cat
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 17:57
No, I'm pretty sure it's absurd to expect someone to ditch the qwerty after 35 years of typing. Who's going to find a reason to stop their blitzkrieg typing skill on the qwerty and switch over to something else?


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Kenjar
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 18:11
Oh I'm not saying anyone should. I certainly don't have a dvorak designed keyboard yet, mainly because I can't track one down at a reasonable price. I just find it interesting that we are all suffering from Repetitive strain syndrome, and scarificing typing speed on a keyboard design that over a 100 years ago was specifically designed to make typing harder! I find that very amusing.

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 18:22
Yeah, I too find it amusing how a keyboard designed to slow us down is now being used by some people who can type almost as fast they talk.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 19:19
Where is the SPACE key on this alternate keyboard?

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Fallout
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 19:41
Hmmm. Not so sure DVORAK would decrease problems with RSI. The whole problem with RSI is doing the same thing over and over for a long period of time results in damage. Surely a keyboard that minimizes hand movement, thus keeping the hand in one place and resulting in less variation in the movements will increase RSI probability? Either way, I've always found using the mouse in an app that requires a lot of dragging causes most of my RSIesque problems.

Kenjar
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 20:15
All I can say on that, is have a good look at your fingers next time you type something substantual. Typing at speed your fingers look like a spider tapdancing on hot coals, while someone shoots at it's feet. I'd assume that would cause more damage than keeping you hands from moving around as much.

Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 20:44
Bahamut
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Posted: 4th Jul 2006 21:47
It would be a pain using blender on a dvorak keyboard. The one hand on keyboard and the other on mouse wouldn't work at all as it appears that both hands are needed for the keyboard. Games like FPS's will also be a pain then.

To be honest, Azerty is enough to throw me off, and I'm not a particularly fast typer as it is. I'd never stop using qwerty simply because it took me long enough to get comfortable with it. I'm not going to waste all that time again learning a different layout.


I'd also contest the RSI claim. Less movement means less variation in the muscles that are used. I also find that smaller movements are less comfortable. I get mild RSI with the mouse, not the keyboard. It makes very little sense to make such a claim when the same number of buttons are being pressed too.

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 5th Jul 2006 04:43
so whats the dvorak equivilent of WASD?

dark coder
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Posted: 5th Jul 2006 05:11
Quote: "so whats the dvorak equivilent of WASD?"


The ever so catchy PEUI :p

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 5th Jul 2006 06:27
Quote: "so whats the dvorak equivilent of WASD?"


Joystick

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 5th Jul 2006 07:50
Quote: " but I was constantly using the "hunt and peck" method. Meaning my little eyes (I was about 6 I think) were constantly fixed on the keys with my hands moving all over the place trying to find they key I wanted!"


I believe that people who hunt and peck still should have a decent typing speed. It is in my best belief that alot of "hunt and peckers" are "dont want to type so refuse to learn.

Memorize asd and qwerty and you have several of the most common keys pressed. But people who ask "where is the A" constantly, I have to say that they just are not willing to type and mentally block the learning so that they persist in their hunt and peck methods.

In this, I am serious. I know people who have been typing for more then eight years and still are hunt pecking. After a while normally a person would know where a few keys were yet these people show no sign of progress. In this case it IS clear that they are unwilling to learn. Hunt pecking works and for the most part they don't want to think as much when typing. To take the time to make the connection between the keys and the letters.


Of course it can also be the way they are typing. I generally find it harder to type unfamiliar words or less commonly used, I also realized that it wasn't so much that I can't spell them, but because I haven't typed them alot. When I first "learned" to type the fastest thing I could type was my full name, 16 characters in 1.5 seconds (apox). However typing other words was a much slower task.


It is like playing a musical instrument. Just because you know the song by heart does not mean you can tell us what the notes are, and similarly, just because you know what the notes are doesn't mean you can play it perfectally. But repeating those same notes over and over forms pathways in your mind and suddently you aren't making mistakes and are playing without issue.


My point is simple, either you are too lazy to learn somthing, or you are learning it in the wrong way. There is no "I can't learn it" there is only "I won't learn it". And if you want reason to learn it, it stimulates your mind (okay... not sure of the validity of this... but is a stimulated mind less likly to develope althimers? I know, spelling) which enriches your life. It has been proven that older people recieve less stimulation because of their life style, typically repeating experiances they had before instead of seeking out new ones.

Without this stimulation something happens (neural pathways breakup?) and I can't answer for certain anymore... but still, do it, it is good for you.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 5th Jul 2006 13:24
Quote: "Hunt pecking works and for the most part they don't want to think as much when typing. "


Ultimately itself self defeating, because if you have to hunt and peak you are constantly looking for the next key, that's alot more thought then I employ when I type. As we all know, the reason we can do things without thinging is because we've trained the little brain to do it for us. It's a dedicated unit designed to store common physical movements (such as moving your arm, riding a bike, swiming, and of cause typing). I don't know about you, but when I swim, the only thought that goes into it is "overarm or breast stroke?" then I can idelly think about something else while my body goes into autopilot. So hunt and peakers, are causing themselves alot more trouble, thought and effort then the average typer who just gets on with it.

Quote: "I generally find it harder to type unfamiliar words or less commonly used"


It all gets programmed into the small brain, it's all patterns at the end of the day and reproducing them. I remember alot of telephone numbers very easily, not by the numbers but by the order I press the keys on the dial pad. I do find, and this is a personal thing, the the only thing that slows me down on the keyboard is trying to remember how to spell the word, as I work it out, my hands have no problem locating the correct key to press, but then my mind works a bit different from average seeing that I'm Aspergic in nature.

Quote: "My point is simple, either you are too lazy to learn somthing, or you are learning it in the wrong way. There is no "I can't learn it" there is only "I won't learn it". And if you want reason to learn it, it stimulates your mind (okay... not sure of the validity of this... but is a stimulated mind less likly to develope althimers? I know, spelling) which enriches your life. It has been proven that older people recieve less stimulation because of their life style, typically repeating experiances they had before instead of seeking out new ones."


I agree fully, except I think in all forms it's down to lazyness and there is no real reason for them not to learn. I'm sure there are plenty of "wrong ways" that work just fine without thought, they just lack the efficancy of other methods.

Van B
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Posted: 5th Jul 2006 13:51 Edited at: 5th Jul 2006 14:01
Anyone remember those split keyboards, like the split them down the middle to re-orientate each half to be more comfortable.

Like your left hand would be over ASD, while your right hand would be around the neck of the guy who gave you the keyboard.

My old boss had one that actually folded out, it was horrific, you'd pull the keyboard closer and almost loose a thumb.

Give me a plain uncomfortable QWERTY keyboard, like the keyboards we've been using for 3 decades, gimme one of those any day of the week. Typing speed is for CV's, and typists, coders with >30wpm speeds should be very proud, because we actually have to think about what we're typing . I think my fastest time on a paragraph that I know by heart is 80wpm - but it's all relative, typing randomly selected words only got me about 40wpm.

So if people ask me if I can touch type, I say yes, but they are far more impressed when you hold a conversation with them while looking at them, AND coding something at the same time, that just freaks folk out if you can do that.

Edit:
Incidently, more on-current topic.

I only learned to type because my dad couldn't, he'd spend days typing a simple paragraph, and with the fashion at the time being that you would type programs from magazines, it was quite a time-consuming task. Text adventures played a big part too, I have joint damage in my fingertips from the Spectrum, like I can lock them at 90 degrees, ''QAOP ruined my life'' would make a great geek-shirt.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 5th Jul 2006 14:08
lol, I loved this spilt keyboards. I remember the first version of microsofts natrual design, it was brilliant, and about twice the size of any keyboard I'd ever used before. I've got a simular design on my desktop system but much smaller, that doesn't work very well for me.

SteverEno
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Posted: 6th Jul 2006 06:15
I switched to Dvorak after typing for 25 years with QWERTY. It was slower at first, then faster and less painful. Totally worth it. The only disadvantage is when I have to use a public keyboard at the library, because I hunt and peck to avoid falling back into those bad old QWERTY habits.

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