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Geek Culture / University open days (UK)

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David T
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 13:42
It's openday season again and I was wondering if anybody was at any opens days over the past few weeks.

Particuarly Cambridge. I've been there Weds-Fri, the William Gates buliding is absolutely splendiferous, and it seems like graduates in CompSci there are highly sought after. The course too looks great, with some incredibly interesting lectures on compilers, discrete maths, OSes, etc.

Anybody else been to look around places?

Fallout
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 15:47
I chose Bournemouth purely based on beaches and bitches. I never went to open days. I tried Southampton first but didn't get the UCAS points so didn't get in. I took a year out and then applied to Bournemouth where I just had enough points. Unfortunately I discovered cigarettes, beer, women and cars at 6th form and was doing physics, maths and computer A levels. Therefore I only went 50% of the time and ended up with B,D,E.

By far the most important thing is to make sure you're doing a sandwich course. BSc Honours. The placement you get in the 3rd year will be such good experience that a 2-2 sandwich student who had a good placement will still be more attractive to employers than 1st level student without sandwich placement. I still regard my 13 months in industry as far more valuable than my degree. I couldn't imagine having finished uni without placement experience now. I'm already an experienced computing industry software developer with important projects to my name, rather than some guy who left uni and can program but doesn't have a clue about the business environment.

Sandwich sandwich sandwich!! BSc(Hons)!!!

I got a 1st btw. As my letter of congratulations reads "you have now joined the ranks of the elite!". bwhaha. My disseration on DBP got 73%!!!

Bahamut
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 16:20
I went last year. I was impressed by Sussex and Southampton. I decided on sussex in the end though. Now all I need is BBB or 300 points from my A levels (bloody hard btw). I chose Surrey as my insurance even though I'd never been there. I went to their open day this week just to see what it's like, but despite all the good things I'd heard about it, I was extremely unimpressed.

The course I'm hoping to do is Biochemistry with an optional sandwich year.

@ Fallout: Wow, well done with the first. Nicely done.

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Jess T
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 16:38 Edited at: 8th Jul 2006 16:39
Wow... I have no idea what you guys are talking about

UCAS points
6th form
B,D,E
sandwich course. BSc Honours.
2-2 sandwich *Drool*
I got a 1st
BBB or 300 points
A levels

Hurray for everything!

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 16:47
Quote: "purely based on beaches and bitches."

Great minds think alike

Quote: "My disseration on DBP got 73%!!!"


Ouch. What didn't they like?




Come see the WIP!
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 16:48
I've been to Leicester Uni so far, because the 6th form went, although they don't do my course, who cares, it was an open day, it was the same day when that guy in M&S in Leicester played that prank on his boss with Turanchula, to think I wanted a subway instead

I want to look at Northampton, Southhampton, Buckingham (Although its got a lot of racist gangs around there) Uni of East Anglia, Greenwich, Birmingham, Portsmouth, Derby and anything else I can research on UCAS that do Creative Writing as a course.

However I doubt I'll get into Uni of East Anglia, they go over 300 UCAS points.

Quote: "
Particuarly Cambridge. I've been there Weds-Fri, the William Gates buliding is absolutely splendiferous, and it seems like graduates in CompSci there are highly sought after. The course too looks great, with some incredibly interesting lectures on compilers, discrete maths, OSes, etc."


Being a cambridge local, I have seen their universities quite a bit and they are rather impressive, I was hoping to go for many years, but they don't do want I want and theres no point going there for me, which is a shame, being the second highest in the country I would expect the entry requirements would be quite high, as you would find with Oxford as well

Dazzag
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 17:08
Quote: "UCAS points
6th form
B,D,E
sandwich course. BSc Honours.
2-2 sandwich *Drool*
I got a 1st
BBB or 300 points
A levels"


I went to Uni in the Uk. So lets see...

1. 6th form - last 2 years of school (16-18)
2. B,D,E - Hmmm. Rearrange and you get what most students spend most of the time in. Apart from that I'm assuming grades here
3. Sandwich course - year out being a lackey in a business somewhere
4. I got a 1st - Highest grade you can get. Obviously didn't party enough...
5. BBB or 300 points - Think thats 3 grade Bs. Lost me on 300 points
6. A levels - The exams you get at the end of 6th form to get you into Uni. Also seen on the inside of phone boxes under the pictures of ladies in underwear....

Oh, and make sure they know who you are when you go for your uni interview. The bloke interviewing me thought I was some Polish geezer who wanted to do computers and accounts. Kept asking me how I would do balance sheets and stuff ("Erm, I did a couple a few years ago in basic accountancy"). In the end he realised I wasn't Norman Kawplosci (or whatever) and didn't have time to have proper interview. And one person was deffo in the door that day regardless of their final grades (if you impressed them enough). Typical.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
adr
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 17:30 Edited at: 8th Jul 2006 17:36
Every University course has a "required UCAS points" to get a place. UCAS Points are based on grades at A-level (as dazzag said, non-vocational education at 16-18). When I were a lad, the points were assigned as follows:
A - 12 points
B - 10 points
C - 8 points
D - 6 points, etc, etc

So, my Software Engineering course at Newcastle Required 26 points and I got an A and two Cs = 28 points. So, I was guaranteed a place.

I think they've changed it now, so an A is like 100 points. I think they've changed it so it better accomodates playtime qualifications like QNVQs and day release programmes. Our govornment has a huge rod for getting 50% of the country through univerisity. So, rather than make people smarter, they make it easier for people to get in by adjusting in-take requirements.


Quote: "My disseration on DBP got 73%!!!"

Quote: "Ouch. What didn't they like?"


70%+ is an amazingly good score for a final year dissertation. You're in the top 3-5% of your year or there abouts. In my course, there were about 140 people and I got 72% (damn you Fallout). If you average 70% on your exams and projects, you can expect a first class honours degree.

You see, that's where I fell down. I averaged about 45% on my exams (My second year attendance was nothing short of dreadful) but I pulled a rabit out of the hat with my final year project.

Oh yeah - the quality of your education, and the gravitas that a degree caries varies wildly depending on your choice of university. RedBricks (as they're called) carry a lot more weight than recent technical colleges which have become universities (see my comments on our govornment).

Similarly, at A-Level, the difficulty of the exam depends on the creator of the exam; there are several exam boards around the country and they all product exams. For example, If your 1999 General Studies examination was assessed by OCEAC then you were asked a question as follows:

Quote: "
Look at the following table below - which animal is fastest?
* Chetah
* Hare
* Shopping Trolley
"

Which wouldn't be so bad, except for the fact the maximum speeds were quoted at the side.

If however, you were a ninja, like me, and did an NEAB general studies examination, you were asked to "spot the odd one out" from 4 works of art. I think I ballsed that one up, but I nailed the Foreign Languages and mathematics questions - because I did French and Mathematics at A-level It's odd... looking back. I used to be so studious, and then I went to University and it all collapsed.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 18:37
Quote: "Our govornment has a huge rod for getting 50% of the country through univerisity"
Unfortunate then that the students have to now spend years (decades) paying back all the loans. Can just see all those BK degrees (art for example) getting a hell of a lot less students soon.

Cheers

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David T
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 18:58
Quote: "being the second highest in the country I would expect the entry requirements would be quite high, as you would find with Oxford as well"


Ahem - Cambridge is first I think!

The requirement seems to be straight As. Which when you consider an A is 80%+, not too bad. Though the interviews are tough. Nice thing is CompSci is quite a niche subject, so unless you go to Churchill, they're not under too much pressure to stick to numbers.

Jess T
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 19:14
Ahh, interesting. Thanks for explaining that stuff Daz & adr

See, here on the under-side of the planet, we have a completely stuffed up education system

"The Board of Studies". To get into Uni, you're given a rank, based against all the other students in your state.
If you're the best (ie, highest grades in the entire state), you get 100.0, and it goes down in decrements of 0.1 till it gets to 30.0 and anyone left just gets 30.0

Quite a load of dogs ballocks if you ask me, but... Meh.
I got 88.85, which would probably be equivilant to getting maybe 3 A' and a B or two?

Once you're actually in Uni, though... It means absolutely nothing.
Seriously... It's nothing, not a single thing.
I know people that got about 55 and are at my Uni.

*Shrug* Education systems around the world just plain and simple suck

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Bahamut
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 19:23
Quote: "Every University course has a "required UCAS points" to get a place. UCAS Points are based on grades at A-level (as dazzag said, non-vocational education at 16-18). When I were a lad, the points were assigned as follows:
A - 12 points
B - 10 points
C - 8 points
D - 6 points, etc, etc"


Yeah it's changed.

A=120
B=100
C=80
D=60
E=40

For an As level (first year of your A level), each is worth half. Other qualifications are also worth different amounts of points.

Most Universities only care about 3 complete A levels, others want 3 A levels and 1 As, others want only 2 A levels. It depends.

The reason for the point system is that if your offer is BBB, you can get ABC or AAD and still get in, because they all add up to 300 points.

I think I'm right in thinking though that in the UK we specialise very early in our education. At 16 you leave school, and get a job or enter 6th form (also called college). You do 3,4 or 5 subjects (normally 4 and drop one after a year). Most people end up with 3 A levels and one As level but it varies. There are no compulsoy subjects. I just did Biology, Chemistry and Maths with an Ethics As level. Others chose the easy route and do Photography, Media and ICT before realising they're not actually that easy either.


Quote: "The requirement seems to be straight As. Which when you consider an A is 80%+, not too bad. Though the interviews are tough. Nice thing is CompSci is quite a niche subject, so unless you go to Churchill, they're not under too much pressure to stick to numbers."


80%+ is actually very difficult. In maths it's ok, because you're either right or wrong. However, in something like Biology, you can be correct but get no marks at all. With only 18 or sometimes only 12 marks to spare it can be pretty tough.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 19:27
Quote: "Ahem - Cambridge is first I think!"


Not occording to the list our Head of sixth form showed us, supposedly Oxford has knocked them down to second, I'll have a look at the UCAS website, it should be on there.

All A's sounds about right though, and cambridge is difficult, they are very biased to their straigh locals as well (well the colleges were biased) as I applied for Long Road with far more than enough requirements, but was rejected because so many student from Cambridge schools applied (as their schools don't have a 6th form centre) I think it will be even harder in the colleges now that the regional college has shut down its A level courses. (As if I care now )

But best of luck getting in, its a nice uni.

Fallout
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 19:28
Not sure if Cash was joking Adr or being serious. Either way, thanks for clarrifying it. I was quite worried about my dissertation all through the year. I knew I wasn't gonna be able to finish my RTS, and I wasn't 100% sure on how I was gonna turn it into a technical scientific investigation. Eventually I pulled it out of the bag.

My hypothesis was "Darkbasic Professional is capable of making a Real-Time Strategy game technically as complex as Command & Conquer Generals". The final conclusion was: totally unproven. The grade was 1st! Woohoooo!

David T
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 20:03 Edited at: 8th Jul 2006 20:04
Quote: "Not occording to the list our Head of sixth form showed us, supposedly Oxford has knocked them down to second, I'll have a look at the UCAS website, it should be on there."


I was sort of joking, it varies depending on who you ask. Times Good University Guide has had it top by a bit for the past 4 years. But it depends on how you rank things.

Quote: "they are very biased to their straigh locals as well"


I noticed that a bit - every student who I spoke to came from London, or locally...

Quote: "80%+ is actually very difficult. In maths it's ok, because you're either right or wrong. However, in something like Biology, you can be correct but get no marks at all. With only 18 or sometimes only 12 marks to spare it can be pretty tough."


On the harder papers you do have a bit of the UMS factor too.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 20:21
Ah yes I see, I guess we had a differant guide...Shame, Northampton isn't in the top 30, but other Universities I am interested in are, but then reputation isn't everything (unless employers decided to be bastards)

Fallout
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 21:47
Reputation isn't everything at all. All you need is a good enough CV to get you to the interview and then it's all down to your personality. Yes, I would be screwed if I went for a job and 10 Cambridge graduates all with 1sts and 1 years industry experience applied too. I might not get to the interview then! The chances of that are pretty slim though.

If you're going for a real techy job where they need the absolute best of the best and you won't be dealing with people (so personality isn't an issue) then your uni, your degree grade and your work experience will be all they care about. In any other job, I firmly believe the guy with good enough skills who they like the most will get the job.

Tinkergirl
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 22:06
Cool.

UCAS points calculator.

Apparently, I'd have 452 points. That's several old Scottish Highers and a CSYS (Advanced Higher). Which sounds nice. Shame I dropped out of uni twice, mind you Just goes to show - points don't always make prizes

adr
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Posted: 8th Jul 2006 22:09 Edited at: 8th Jul 2006 22:12
Quote: "All you need is a good enough CV to get you to the interview and then it's all down to your personality."


Fallout's one of the few people with his head screwed on. There is a certain calibre of Oxbrigde graduate who thinks that a degree makes up for an obnoxious personality. Actually, that's not true. Generally speaking CompSci grads think people should give them a job, just because they know about computers n stuff.

Skillset and aptitude obviously play a large part when applying for a job, but if you're a socially stunted geek, no-one will hire you.

It depends what you want from a job. If you're happy to work for IBM as a researcher, then a well respected degree and meticulous approach to work is going to go down well. If you want a job in the rest of the world, you have to be an all round decent bloke.


(You'll notice I said he/him/bloke when referring to a potential employee - this is because girls do not exist in IT. They are a figment of our geeky imagination).

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Dazzag
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 02:32 Edited at: 9th Jul 2006 02:36
Quote: "your degree grade and your work experience will be all they care about"
When I used to do interviews (as in hold them, not go for a job myself) you wouldn't even get in the door without a Computer science degree (took a bit to get my manager to agree to HNDs if the rest of the CV was good). We tended to only choose graduates, so experience didn't really count (we seriously specialise and hardly anyone knows the language) and our manager liked to "sculpt" people from scratch without any pre-conceived programming ideals (eg. structure diagrams for every damn thing) that generally don't work with our system.

They then got an IQ test when they got to our company and had to get 95% to get an interview. Then as long as the person didn't sit there like Gumby, or be a cocky little s**t, then we normally gave them a chance (3 months then second test on the system) no matter what their grades were like. Mainly because it's amazing how many fantastic programmers really don't do hardly any work in Uni. Hell, main thing I remember (apart from partying a lot and avoiding waaayyy too many lectures) was writing Atari demos with some programmer mates instead of doing assignments (then you work as a team on the last night).

We knew we missed a few stars with this method, but we never got any complete duffers once we had it all set out.

Although a lot of places will just ignore anyone without a 1st. Stupid attitude, but there you go. Especially considering a degree might as well be a swimming badge once you get the job, no matter what the grade. Oh, and it's harder these days as every man and his dog can program *and* have a computer science degree (luckily government is sorting this out by screwing the students it seems, obviously lowering their figures in the future), so companies need to have a way of choosing.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Mattman
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 05:22
I feel all alone Costs of college is rising here, along with requirements for getting in. I'm glad they are trying to remove class rank, as I will be going to a H.S. of like 5000. Stupid 3 years of foreign language is balogny in my opinion, I'm not going to work at Wendys.

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indi
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 10:28
never been myself as a student, been offered jobs teaching at a few, worked at a few but hated the no pay to mark tests attitude, ironic i guess

Fallout
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 11:34
The main thing about a good degree grade is it normally shows the ability to self learn and the ability to work at something that you hate more than satan himself (sometimes). Some degrees spoon feed you, but most will require you to read around a subject to get top marks and hunt down lecturers, ask them questions and try and work to their individual requirements (they all mark a little differently). Also, if you're getting bored of your work you still have to keep plugging, no matter how dull it is. It's that skill set that you can take into the workplace.

I would argue that someone who gets a lower grade at uni (pass up to 2-2) is either not quite as sharp, or not interested in doing the work (i.e. partying like dazzag said). If they're not quite as sharp, they're probably still worth employing unless you need the best of the best. If they were too busy doing other things, then I would argue they're not worth employing (going against what Dazzag argued). I mean, if you can't be arsed to knuckle down for 9 months in that final year (where it all counts) and do some proper work to set yourself up for the rest of your life, then what can you actually bring to a work place? Yeah, maybe a natural flair and ability to program well, but clearly a poor sense of professionalism and commitment.

I did it the right way round I think. Unconcious most of my first year, ditto for the second year until the last few months where I pulled my socks up for the final bits of course work and exams. Did my placement year and then worked my balls off for the final year. I didn't go out properly in the whole year. Probably 10 visits to the pub, and no proper all night sessions. I got a 1st for everything except 2 assignments and 1 exam. I feel like I did myself justice because I finally helped myself achieve what I was capable of even though it got to the stage where everything on the course was dull as watching paint dry in a very humid room.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 11:52
Quote: "
Apparently, I'd have 452 points."


Nice one, that should be enough to get you into any uni in the country (well if your interview works out)

Quote: "Reputation isn't everything at all. All you need is a good enough CV to get you to the interview and then it's all down to your personality"


Of course, my personality would screw me over, which is why I'm trying to do up my CV I have plenty of examples of work (Although after uni most of those will be useless as I'll have better ones) and well employers are impressed by socially active people...so I'm joining the student council, for that and I hate the new dress code.

Quote: "Costs of college is rising here, along with requirements for getting in. I'm glad they are trying to remove class rank, as I will be going to a H.S. of like 5000. Stupid 3 years of foreign language is balogny in my opinion, I'm not going to work at Wendys."


I know its terrible, £3000 a year, plus equipment/book/study expenses, plus any living/travel costs, the better rooms at Leicester cost £3000 a term, although they are their best rooms, but even for that, its a little expensive, so unless you're rich, I wouldn't ask for en suite.

Dazzag
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 12:42 Edited at: 9th Jul 2006 12:47
Quote: "ability to work at something that you hate more than satan himself (sometimes)"
Actually we preferred it when people actually enjoyed programming rather than just did it as a job.

Quote: "not interested in doing the work "
Yeah, but *at* Uni. I mean who goes to study all day? :-| Well, a friend of mine at work did. Took a briefcase on the train every day and commuted from his parents. I'm above him in the company BTW and started about the same time. Not only that but we had some dedicated hard working people at Uni who did really well. One girl in particular grafted out a 1st from sheer hard work. Could she program? Could she ****. Good old research and studying gets you through. Ask her to write a simple client server application and watch the eyes glaze over. Which is what you see all the time from trainees who just left Uni with a decent degree.

As it happens I reckon I would have studied more these days (if I knew what the industry is like now). Massively more competition now and all the bosses treat programmers more like plumbers (rather than the gods we really are). Probably because they have this feeling these days that anyone can do it. This is not true. Trust me I've trained enough people over the years. I always believed you can teach anyone programming, but some people, even with a CS degree, can't program decently (I'm talking about just getting the damn thing working full stop, forget about coding standards and QA) for toffee. Couple that with outsourcing from cheaper countries (eg. India) and the fact that more and more people are going into IT, and you end up with a much harder market than when I started (started working in the mid 90's). So yeah, grades matter more now IMHO. But they mean **** all compared with experience. Really.

Oh, and theres also the age thing. Read something that said if you don't get into a good solid IT role by the time you are 40 then you are stuffed as no-one will want you (get manager in your job title and you are gold, even though you then have to have half your brain surgically removed it seems). Apparently thats more like 35 now I've heard recently. Lean towards big firms I say. After getting a decent position in a smallish travel IT company, with a management (I am the head teamleader of my department) role looming, basically 911 happened and overnight destroyed our market pretty much. Larger company with capital behind it came along, bought us, and now I work in a place (doing the same thing) with lots of other people that do the same thing (watch The Office - it's practically my life story at work, but the other way around. We moved to Slough). And redundancies every 6 months (outsourcing soon!). Good stress build up that one. Think we have had 2 people have strokes (related to work apparently) this year. Is all good.

Quote: "Reputation isn't everything at all"
Not in my industry. Where I work we have employed people just because people listen to them at dinner parties. Really. Whole departments have been created just because of the reputation of individuals. Half of them are useless, so I assume we are talking golf buddies and funny handshakes with antlers on their head mates.

Satan eh? I'm guessing you are not on these boards on this lovely overcast sunday morning?

Cheers?

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Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 12:53
I dont know if anyone's mentioned Essex Uni... I went there. DO NOT GO THERE. The Uni itself if really pleasant (imho) but the CompSci department is a joke. Its probably the same in all uni's, but they just make you feel like a statistic. The resources are poor (bad memories of a robotics course done in a language the uni dropped 2 years before using 4 robots between 120 people. 1 Robot got commandeered for a PG course, another was always out of action due to knackered battery. That left 2 between 120 people. They had to be exclusively used).

At work we recently were hiring a webmaster. We basically didn't care about degree qualification. We were looking far more for a portfolio of work. A degree actually doesn't prove anything. And I mean that. Maybe a Cambridge one might, I dont know. All the people I've met who went to cambridge were stuck up themselves. Complete twats. All a degree shows is that you can sit down and apply yourself to something for 3 years. You learn nothing that you couldn't have taught yourself in a tenth the time. ESPECIALLY seeing as a UK degree now sets you back £10K (about $18K) for fee's alone. Then you have accomodation, bills (for off campus), commuting if you dont live there, books, etc. Uni is an expensive event.

To be honest, unless you REALLY REALLY need a degree - seriously consider if its worth it. The social aspect is fantastic. But you can have that if you have a friend at uni you can visit

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David T
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 12:56 Edited at: 9th Jul 2006 13:01
Quote: "There is a certain calibre of Oxbrigde graduate who thinks that a degree makes up for an obnoxious personality. Actually, that's not true. Generally speaking CompSci grads think people should give them a job, just because they know about computers n stuff."


I contest that. Of course, I have bias, I hope to read CompSci at Cambridge but I wish to do so because it's probably hte best place in Britain to. The facilities are top class, the lecturers even more so and the employment oppurtunities are very good.

I haven't met one CS grad from Cam who wasn't a nice fellow. Out of the handful there a couple had started their own business, and a few had gone on into employment with highly respected companies. There is nothing to say if you're Oxbrige you have no inter-personal skills. If I got in, I'd personally refute that
You may get the odd oddball who says 'I'm oxbridge, let me in to your company!' at hte end of it but I would be surprised if somebody with such attitude would have got into Oxbridge in the first place.

By and large, Oxbridge tend to admit the brightest and so will graduate some of the brightest too. And it is a hard course. And imo quite a good course, because it focuses on theory rather than the current 'hot property' in the programming world. And so yes, a lot of graduates will go into jobs like research at IBM.

And there's nothing wrong with that - I intend to go down that path! (either research, or low level programming work - I love stuff like that)

Quote: "All the people I've met who went to cambridge were stuck up themselves. Complete twats"


Must have met the wrong sort of people. I know a few. Nice, normal people.

Quote: "You learn nothing that you couldn't have taught yourself in a tenth the time. ESPECIALLY seeing as a UK degree now sets you back £10K (about $18K) for fee's alone. Then you have accomodation, bills (for off campus), commuting if you dont live there, books, etc. Uni is an expensive event.

To be honest, unless you REALLY REALLY need a degree - seriously consider if its worth it. The social aspect is fantastic. But you can have that if you have a friend at uni you can visit "


I think you certainly do. While I an teach myself to an extent, there's some things that just work better when somebody else has taught it. I often flick ahead in a textbook, trying to read some stuff - but it always works out better when the teacher explains it. Books are often more concise than spoken word. And if your university offers tutorials, more the better.

Fallout
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 13:22
That's the thing about uni though matey. On a proper non-spoon fed course, you don't get taught anything. I remember a lot of people in the first year always complaining that they weren't being taught very well. That's because at any uni worth it's salt, you don't get taught shizzle!! They generally throw a bunch of course texts your way, invite you to ask them questions, give you a learning plan and hold lecturers. True teaching is ramming info down your throat over and over and then testing it and repeating until you know it. That's doesnt happen at uni. It's up to you to figure out what the hell you're doing and why the hell A doesnt slot into B when C can be rammed up D but B can only connect to he side of C if D is first set on fire and then screwed into A before being separated from E with the aid of F. Yes. Exactly.

That's why the argument that you can teach yourself something in half the time stands with me. Because uni is quite disjointed with multiple modules all running at the same time and interfering with each other (on purpose I might add, to put you under as much pressure and make you as physically and mentally sick as possible), you end up learning at the pace the uni sets for you. You can't really afford to sit down for a week and learn a load of C#, for example. You just have to do the chunks that fit in with your course schedule and therefore slowly pick it up over time. I'm a competent C# programmer now, but that's after 8 months doing it for 2 hours/week and fitting in other rubbarb (including Java ). If I'd've needed C# for a job, I could have programmed the Matrix in 8 months of learning it myself!

Bahamut
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 13:48 Edited at: 9th Jul 2006 13:54
Quote: "I hope to read CompSci at Cambridge but I wish to do so because it's probably hte best place in Britain to. The facilities are top class, the lecturers even more so and the employment oppurtunities are very good."


I'll give you some advice. Don't pick a university just because it has the best course. Consider all with very good courses or better. Whilst a degree doing a poor course is pretty useless, I'd say that a degree at a university you don't like would be equally rubbish. Why do a degree for three years if you don't enjoy it.

If you love cambridge then good for you. If you find that you don't like it, or find that it's uninspiring, then think carefully about your choice. Just because it's cambridge it doesn't make it worth your time.

Do you go to a private school, because apparently Oxford and Cambridge are pretty biased. Hence the social ineptness that several people have already mentioned (yes, yes, that was a huge generalisation with stereotypes, and probably completely false. )


[EDIT]

Quote: "That's the thing about uni though matey. On a proper non-spoon fed course, you don't get taught anything."


That's why I think private schools so rubbish. At normal schools and 6th form, you have to deal with teachers not turning up and missing out parts of the course. Therefore, you end up teaching yourself some of it during your revision time. This means that you're not totally useless at university because you already have some basic skills for working independantly. I think statistically private school students struggle more with degrees, and I think it's because of the style in which they're taught.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 14:25
Quote: "I'd say that a degree at a university you don't like would be equally rubbish"
Yep. 3 to 4 years in a place you don't like? No thanks.

Quote: "because apparently Oxford and Cambridge are pretty biased"
Yep. Don't even accept applications from a lot of places. When I was doing BTEC (equivelent of A levels) Oxbridge wouldn't even consider anything but A levels. Didn't help that my stupid school didn't have A levels for computers. And even if you meet the requirements they may not take you because of the area of your school etc. Out of interest are we talking about *the* Cambridge University? Because the old poly changed to something like University of Cambridge when they were allowed to change it's name to University (ie. there is 2 and one is really a poly).

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 14:52
Quote: "Quote: "because apparently Oxford and Cambridge are pretty biased"
Yep. Don't even accept applications from a lot of places."


Oxford would only offer me a place in 2006, and since I'd already gotten a job for my gap year at a company who will sponser me throughout Uni, I said no. Frankly I don't look at Oxford in any different-a-light than all the other universities, and they didn't have a problem with me doing a gap year, in fact they encouraged it if I was going to be doing something productive with my time. I appreciate that Oxford are reputed to have a thing about gap years, but I'm not going to sacrifice a year of industry experience and lots o' £££ just to say that I've been to Oxford.

I should be going to Bristol or Southampton instead. This way I can say "uh, yeah, I got offered a place at Oxford, but I turned them down *inspecting fingernails*", though whether I'll actually get the 3 A's required remains to be seen.


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David T
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 19:25 Edited at: 9th Jul 2006 20:41
Quote: "I'll give you some advice. Don't pick a university just because it has the best course. Consider all with very good courses or better. Whilst a degree doing a poor course is pretty useless, I'd say that a degree at a university you don't like would be equally rubbish. Why do a degree for three years if you don't enjoy it.

If you love cambridge then good for you."


Sorry yes, I think I gave the wrong impression, I love the place! Been round quite a few times and I just love the town, the atmosphere, and the surroundings.

Quote: "That's the thing about uni though matey. On a proper non-spoon fed course, you don't get taught anything. I remember a lot of people in the first year always complaining that they weren't being taught very well. That's because at any uni worth it's salt, you don't get taught shizzle!! They generally throw a bunch of course texts your way, invite you to ask them questions, give you a learning plan and hold lecturers. True teaching is ramming info down your throat over and over and then testing it and repeating until you know it. That's doesnt happen at uni."


True, at uni a lot of reading is left to be done by you, but you get the lectures and importantly at some unis you get 1-on-1 or 1-on-2 teaching where staff go through problems, work and notes you don't understand.

This may just be me but I think 3 years spent studying at a university is 3 years better spent than, say, teaching yourself. You get the facilities and availability of staff who know what they're talking about that aren't usually available to home students (unless, of course, you parents are professors. Then you haven't really got too much of a problem).

But everybody's tastes in education are different - as long as you're happy with what you do is what matters.

Quote: "Do you go to a private school, because apparently Oxford and Cambridge are pretty biased."


Yes, I do, and no - they're not only in 3 college do the number of private pupils outnumber the number of state. Cambridge's average is 53% state per college, although I don't know the numbers for applicants. They try to interview everybody who meets the basic requirements (for example, predicted AAA/AAB and have the essential subjects needed, eg. Physics). They do turn people away who stand no chance. But after that, it's all down to your interview and depending on course there may be tests like TSA, BMAT. As most of them said after finishing their talk - "The only way to guarantee not getting a place is to not apply".

I know this stuff - I've been knee deep in applications statistics and processes this past week

Quote: "That's why I think private schools so rubbish. At normal schools and 6th form, you have to deal with teachers not turning up and missing out parts of the course. Therefore, you end up teaching yourself some of it during your revision time. This means that you're not totally useless at university because you already have some basic skills for working independantly. I think statistically private school students struggle more with degrees, and I think it's because of the style in which they're taught."


Have you ever been taught in a private school? I have been, and I'm sorry but that's utter crap.
I was cost an A* at English last year because my teacher missed out part of the course. There are some very good teachers, but we also have bad ones. Everywhere does.
Of course there are differences between public schools and 'normal' schools but the teaching experience is largely the same - right down to taking the same exams at the end of the year.

And I disagree with the notion that people from private school are 'totally useless' with respect to degrees. At least, I hope not. Would be bad news for me and my mates otherwise

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 19:57
But think about this David T! Do you really want to go to Cambridge university? I mean that would mean you'd be near me, that would seriously harm your chances of employment, I've seen it happen before

Well anyway, aside from the stupid comments from me, I know the alternative to University is the Open University, my friend was considering it and got me interested, however what sort of options does Open U leave you with, I mean its not like a real university and surely not spending thousands a year on uni has to have a catch. Mind you Open U doesn't exactly have the life experience you'd get at uni, like the partys, the responsibility etc etc.

ConorH
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Posted: 9th Jul 2006 22:57
Could anyone suggest courses for me?

I've pondered the likelyhoods(?) of the following:

Programming
I know theres all different ones like Information Systems Programming or Applied COmputing Control, but these only confuse me in what they would contain subject wise; The info in prospectuses is vague

Games Programming
Is this worth getting into, as my friend suggested it would narrow your employability to that sector in the industry? Is this true?

Security
I know Staffordshire do a course on this, and the subject generally interests me. Can't find anywhere else that does "Computing Security", because it may be masked under another ambiguous name.

Stafford Link
http://www.staffs.ac.uk/courses/undergrad/computingandit/tcm451014064.php


Internet Technologies
Is it worth going for and Internet Technologies course? These generally include things like website design, and bits of networking and programming.

I would prefer courses that have some programming in them. Any thoughts really appreciated, as it's hard to make a choice.

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Fallout
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 00:00 Edited at: 10th Jul 2006 00:02
I basically did an Internet Technologies type degree. Advanced networks, web design/programming, multimedia design, application programming. I'd definitely recommend them as a nice balance between programming, real world hands on technology and media for a bit of artistic relief.

I did Comp Sci for 1 year (passed) and then half of the second year before I got so sick of it I had to quit (then switched to the degree I've just finished). Comp Sci definitely isn't for everyone. You have to really enjoy programming to enjoy Comp Sci. I personally don't enjoy programming very much, just what can be achieved with it. Seeing as at Uni you build pretty dull things, it really didn't hold my interest. And Comp Sci has loads of design modules etc.

Comp Sci is a respected and well known degree, but I found it painfully dull, to the extent that I couldn't motivate myself to do any of the work in the second year. I'd say choose what interests you the most, because unless you enjoy it a little bit (or at least don't hate it) you're unlikely to be able to motivate yourself to do your best.

Dazzag
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 00:28 Edited at: 10th Jul 2006 00:35
Quote: "Frankly I don't look at Oxford in any different-a-light than all the other universities"
When I went to Uni I don't think either of them were in the top 10 for computer science, so no, neither did I. But this isn't to say that a lot of companies don't look favourably on people with degrees from these places.

Quote: "Could anyone suggest courses for me?"
Well, as a programmer and as someone who has hired programmers, a computer science BSc degree stands out a mile. Some firms don't even look at CVs with different degrees. Mainly because they know what they are getting with it. Of course it's been a couple of years since I was looking for work or looking for people to work for me, but can't imagine it's changed that much.

Oh, and I can't comment for game companies, I mean a degree with games programming might actually be sought after, but working in a totally non-games software house I would say we would ignore your CV if it had a games programming module in your degree (esp. if it was a good portion). I mean we are obviously a stop-gap on your way to programming Quake 8 or whatever. Easier to not take the change and go with one of the other 800 applicants. Plus I'm betting anything they teach you will probably either be useless (the games software house will have their own set methods) or will be taught to you anyway quite quickly. And anyway, the last year of computer science gives you the chance of a year long project (with all the research and access to available hardware that you need). Personally I wrote a computer game writer (for kids in schools; you have to *sell* the idea to the lecturers, and they won't go for "It's a game"). Loads of fun that was. If only I had the time to link it up to that Puma robot (car making type robot) they had in the room. Would have been fun. Real robotic "virtual" game. Cool...

Cheers

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Bahamut
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 01:17
Quote: "Have you ever been taught in a private school? I have been, and I'm sorry but that's utter crap."


I thought it might be

Quote: "
I was cost an A* at English last year because my teacher missed out part of the course. There are some very good teachers, but we also have bad ones. Everywhere does.
Of course there are differences between public schools and 'normal' schools but the teaching experience is largely the same - right down to taking the same exams at the end of the year."


To be honest, I'm surprised. Having never been to private school, I was making assumptions. I asumed that if you pay for your education, your teachers care more and are generally more reliable. I also assumed that the standard of teaching is higher, and the courses may well be extended beyond the syllabus. Therefore, I reasoned that the trade-off is that you don't have to deal with incompetance. I guess I was wrong. Sorry for the misjudgement.


Quote: "Sorry yes, I think I gave the wrong impression, I love the place! Been round quite a few times and I just love the town, the atmosphere, and the surroundings.
"


Then that's really great. I really hope you get in.

Quote: "And I disagree with the notion that people from private school are 'totally useless' with respect to degrees. "


It's not abosolute I just heard from several different (unreliable) sources that statistically some private school students tend to struggle a bit. Obviously most will do really well and get 1st's or 2-1's.


Sorry, I do tend to go overboard sometimes, often when I don't really know what I'm talking about. It's a really bad habbit.

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 01:48
532 UCAS points for me. You get like 12 points for a Credit standard grade as well, but there weren't enough things in that calculator Tinkergirl posted to add on my Standard Grades.

Fallout
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 10:54
UCAS points are uber sludge. Any system that values an A in Business Studies as highly as an A in Physics is as pointless as a broken pencil. It's like saying "You scored well on a course for thick people, and you scored well on a course for smart people, therefore you are of the same intellectual value". POPPYCOCK!!!

Dazzag
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 11:05
What, so if I got A's for 3 completely rubbish and unrelated A levels (eg. that cookery one and the one where you walk around a field half the time) then the points system would basically allow you to get into anything? Even if you had no experience of it? I'm obviously thinking computers here. Then again when I went to Uni as long as you were good at maths and english they didn't really care much (some of the girls never touched computers before).

Cheers

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Fallout
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 11:20 Edited at: 10th Jul 2006 11:25
Basically. Obviously some tougher courses say "260 points at A Level, with a B in Maths" or similar, but a lot of course just say "200 points" or whatever. So some muppet who, like you said, did walk in a field studies, bake in an oven studies and wears mums clothes studies and got BBB, would be valued just as highly as someone who did Elite Uber Physics, Space Time Continuem Quantum Mega Sciene, and Extra Terrestial Hybridization and also scored BBB.

Edit: What's worse is when I was looking for my 3rd year placement, I applied for a cool sounding job at IBM. In the end my HOUSEMATE got to the interview and I DIDN'T! Why? Because he had 24 points at A Level and I had 18. It was irrelevant that his were in Business Studies, Sports Science and something else crap, and mine were in Physics, Maths and Computing. It was also not considered that my first year grade was a 1st and his was a 2-2. It was all UCAS rubbishry.

The irony was that, not only was he thicker than custard where the recipe has not been properly followed and twice as much cornflour was added (like 200g instead of 100g!!!!), but I went and found my own job with EDS and made £25k (damn good for placement), where as he was on £15 (average for a placement). So it all worked out fine in the end, but that's just another example of how rubbish some of these systems are and how pointless the filtering methods can be.

Bahamut
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 13:37
I think the only A level that isn't worth much is general studies. I've no idea what kind of stuff you learn from it, but it sounds vague. I'm ashamed to say that the snob in me agrees that it is very harsh that someone with an A in taking pictures is equivalant to someone who can integrate trig functions, or can draw 2-hydroxybenzoic acid.

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 15:44
12 points for a Credit Standard Grade, eh? Well, in that case I'd like to re-count my score: 524. Drew beat me I take it I don't get any points for a Scotvec in trampolining, do I? *laughs*

(Oh, and I got my points in 'sensible' subjects - Maths, English, Physics, Chemistry, etc. Then in 6th year I went a bit daft and did Art+Design and RE. Still - Art+Design let me design a game as my project.)

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