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Geek Culture / Anyone researched bowling, or know much about it?

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RaceGT
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Posted: 28th Jul 2006 10:05
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I have a question regarding bowling pins, if anyone already knows the answer. I've searched a bit and can't even find any images of fallen pins to go by, so I may get get an answer quicker by asking.

Does anyone know if bowling pins, when the finally come to rest (fallen), balance so that the 'head' of the pin is off the floor, or do they sometimes rest with the body of the pin 'leaning' on the head of the pin? In other words, are they balanced so as to make them lay more or less horizontally (with the head off the floor), or do they lean on the head? I know they don't ever rest on the wide end, as then the head of the pin would be way up in the air, and I've never seen that...

Problem is I can't find any descriptions of how they act, or even a picture to demonstrate it, so I was wondering if anybody knew...thx.

http://www.geocities.com/crmnlelmnt/
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SirFire
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Posted: 28th Jul 2006 10:21
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They roll around with their heads on the floor.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7980636389466726281&q=bowling

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RaceGT
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Posted: 28th Jul 2006 11:23
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aha, good demonstration, thx alot. I can also get some of their characteristics from this video, such as what is a normal amount of 'pin action'. Thx again. I see that google videos can be a good source of reference...

http://www.geocities.com/crmnlelmnt/
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SirFire
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Posted: 28th Jul 2006 12:07 Edited at: 28th Jul 2006 12:08
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no problemo

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SirFire
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Posted: 28th Jul 2006 13:57 Edited at: 28th Jul 2006 13:57
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what's up with this? There is no post by Dave J.



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Benjamin
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Posted: 28th Jul 2006 15:31 Edited at: 28th Jul 2006 15:32
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He probably made a stupid post without realising it. Then realised it was stupid. And deleted it.

Edit: Oh and uh.. I don't mean that to offend. I would delete a post if I realised it was stupid.

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SirFire
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Posted: 28th Jul 2006 23:05 Edited at: 28th Jul 2006 23:06
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So Apollo doesn't remove the "last poster" data after a poster deletes a post? Sounds like a bug to me

[edit]
I refreshed 2 or 3 times, checking the thread, and it would continually indicate a new post (by color of the thread), but there would be no post.

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indi
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Posted: 29th Jul 2006 04:45
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the raw log does show a message deletion for this post

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 29th Jul 2006 05:01
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umm...you can delete your own posts?

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Oddmind
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Posted: 29th Jul 2006 05:07 Edited at: 29th Jul 2006 05:07
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dave is a mod right? Exeat?

He probably posted in the wrong topic or something..

also interesting about the pins, the mass is at the bottom, I wouldn't have thought that it would tip over.

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RaceGT
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Posted: 29th Jul 2006 05:47
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I didn't even realize about the absent post...didn't see that. But about the pins, I happened to catch an old match on ESPN Classic, and even the pro pins do definitely rest on the head. It's not even really close to being balanced; they definitely go towards the head. But, it's not extremely off-balanced towards the head, as if there were a lead weight just below the neck. It's probably about 60/40 or even 55/45, towards the head.

Funny it works out good though, because if you make an accurate bowling pin (or download one), and center it (the mesh), then the axis ends up being exactly (it looks like) where it should be. My axis came out being just above the widest part of the pin, about halfway along the distance (up) from the widest part to the narrowest part (the neck). And indeed, the pin rests leaning on the head, without seeming overly weighted to that end. I still have alot of tweaking to do with the physics to get it the way I want it, but the pin model itself is ok so far, at least.

With Newton, I'm not sure if the "NDB_NewtonBodySetMassMatrix" command even works (with or without using the "NDB_CalculateMISphereSolid" commands). Because if it did, then you could really very acccurately set the object's center-of-gravity, hopefully exactly like a real pin. But I've never been able to get the results the way I want; I'm probably not using them right. But I found a better way anyway, that works for me until I find it's not a complete solution. And that is: where you set the object's axis is where it rotates from. At first, I had the pin with the axis exactly at the base, where the pin stands. I didn't think it would make a difference, since Newton was supposed to be calculating the object's rotation center, and I thought that would take care of it. But the pin acted totally crazy, only rotating from its axis and not around the center of gravity that I thought Newton was handling. Well, centering the object's axis fixed the crazy rotating, but I'm wondering how I should set the Newton parameters to take full advantage of it.

http://www.geocities.com/crmnlelmnt/
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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 29th Jul 2006 12:45
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That's not my pin, is it? If so - the axis was put at the bottom originally for ease of placement on the ground, but I can see that if you wanted something physics-accurate, the centre of gravity would be far more important to you than ground placement

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RaceGT
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Posted: 29th Jul 2006 13:54
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I found that at least if I wanted to, it is possible to make the pins lay horizontally with the head off the floor, balanced on the widest part of the pin: just move the axis to exactly that widest part. But the other way is better, seems more correct, and the physics just look better with it that way. Like in the air, when a pin is spinning and bouncing; if the axis is not right, it definitely looks wrong as it spins. I have a complete working version going now, and I've tweaked all the usable variables to as close as I think I can get, without thinking about it more (I've been through just about every variable that concerns the physics). It's actually pretty cool, but I'm thinking about going to candle pins, because in that game, the pins are left on the lane, and you get a good chance for some really dynamic pin action (looks cool).

http://www.geocities.com/crmnlelmnt/
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RaceGT
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Posted: 30th Jul 2006 12:40
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I guess if I'd thought about it more, I wouldn't have really had to ask...not only is there the amount of weight contained in both the neck and head (that is offset from the main mass of the body), but there is the added influence in that it is creating a lever, also acting upon the main mass of the body. If you think of the body of the pin, you can picture about where you could create a perfectly balanced mass from it. It would be sort of an oblong shape, almost like an american football (except with a squared off end, like the bottom of the pin). Well, not only is the weight of the head and neck offsetting this mass, but also levering the mass, since it's connected...and there's no way this pin wouldn't rest against its head, unless it was specifcally weighted. If that was the case, I'm sure it would be obvious and people would be saying "why aren't those pins leaning on their heads?". I just should have thought it through I guess.

One interesting (sic) potential problem I found is in making the ratio of the weight between the pins and ball. If the ball is too heavy, it will send the pins flying, yes, but is less and less affected by the pins. In the real game, and part of the strategy I believe, is that the ball will be deflected somewhat by hitting a pin. It's not much, but realism is key. I think 16 pounds is the (rules) limit, and as low as 12 lbs. I've remembered to take that into consideration. Oh, you want to see a picture? Pretty primitive right now, yes, I'm just working on the engine.

[img]null[/img]

http://www.geocities.com/crmnlelmnt/

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