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Geek Culture / Lack of Hard drive space annoying

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 00:50
Has anyone noticed how big apps and games have become? I have a 100gb hard drive, and though I know there are much bigger ones available I am getting a little sick of upgrading. The size of programs seems to be inflating much faster than HD space. Quite awhile ago I had a 40mb hard drive with over 200 games installed and plenty of space left, I am not talking about pong clones but about mostly RPG's which took up about as much space as any game could (like the SSI gold box series, bards tale, wasteland etc). Now it seems I am lucky to get 20 or so things installed, I looked at my DDO folder and with the content updates it has swelled to over 12gb (for 1 game). Now I know the graphics have come lightyears from the early days, but I also find games to be much shorter then they were at the dawn EGA/VGA. I guess what I am saying is, is there some conspiracy between software companies and hardware companies to have apps become so large and require consistant hardware updates?

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 01:00
Quote: "a new HDD isn't much, and fitting them takes seconds, it still takes a fair bit to fill up 100GB aswell."


Nothing to do with how much they cost, just annoying how fast they fill up. and 100gb goes pretty quick lately and I generally do not install the cinematics if that is an option on a game. I mean I downloaded the Civ 4 demo, just over 400mb and 750mb when installed, for a game that lasts 100 turns, needs very few models since it is so short and only has 4 of the factions available.

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Grandma
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 01:05
Quote: "I guess what I am saying is, is there some conspiracy between software companies and hardware companies to have apps become so large and require consistant hardware updates?"


Yes

"Stupid World of Warcraft.
I have no money, I have no skills. All of the hot hot elvin women are dancing with the big warrior guys. It's college all over again."
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 01:21
You can get 500Gb drivers for somewhat less than £200.

The main problem is that the Windows executable format isn't terribly efficient - the actual machine code will also be pretty inefficient, due to the poor PC architecture and assembly code layout.

For efficient and non-bloated code, you really need to use a different processor, for example ARM, PowerPC, 680x00 etc

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ionstream
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 01:25
Quote: " You can get 500Gb drivers for somewhat less than £200."


That's not cheap!

What I want to know is why the heck Battlefront 2 takes up 4 CD's and is pretty much the same as Battlefield 1942, which takes up 2 CD's and has massive levels.


Maybe all their textures are BMP's?

Steve J
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 01:34
4096x4096 bmp's

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 02:04
Well, you know - people want graphics - photorealistic textures. And if your game doesn't fill a CD then people wonder why - in fact, if it doesn't fill a DVD people want to know why. So CD quality music, DVD quality intro movies and cutscenes, and photorealistic textures are probably to blame.

Back in the days of floppy disks, you had only that much space to play with - the advent of CDs and DVDs meant that size was no issue, to a game. They don't care what else you have on your machine - just that your drive is big enough for them.

Jeku
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 03:05
This has always been the case, dude.

When I had a 120MB hard drive in my 486, I was upset when Doom 2 had a 30MB install In 10 years we'll have 80TB hard drives and wonder why games take up 10TB when they used to just take up 10GB

Times they are a changin'


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
Steve J
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 03:14
Eventually we will develop ever increasing neural networks holding trillions of terabytes, with just simple pictures taking up terabytes because we lost our need to compress the files... in fact, we increase the size of them so that they are higher quality...

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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 05:54
Quote: "4 CD's"


The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay takes up 5 cd's...

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ionstream
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 05:56
So what? I never said that that was the maximum amount of CD's ever, I'm just saying that it shouldn't take up that much space. Just like if pong takes up an entire CD, that's a whole lot of memory used up for just freaking pong, however their's plenty of software out there that takes up more than one CD.

Zaibatsu
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 06:23
i have 330 gigs, with a 256mb, a 512mb, and a 1 gig memory stick so space isn't an issue with me

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 06:24
I remember when Phantasmagoria came out. Seven discs! BS!!! And it was a 2x CD-ROM drive, too... total crap! ah, memories


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Phaelax
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 06:59 Edited at: 5th Aug 2006 07:00
All that pron is finally catching up huh?

Unreal 2 has 6 discs. And the game was totally not worth buying. Beat the whole thing in a few days, depressingly short compared to the first.

300GB for $100, that's cheap. If you want cheap as in $20, go find a used 10gb.

Quote: "Seven discs! BS!!! And it was a 2x CD-ROM drive"

I installed Windows 9x (i forget) from over 30 floppies, 'nuf said.

"Using Unix is the computing equivalent of listening only to music by David Cassidy" - Rob Pike
Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 07:31
Quote: "I installed Windows 9x (i forget) from over 30 floppies, 'nuf said."


bet it was still faster then waiting for "Bruce Lee" to load on the c64

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 08:22
Man, how could you complain about space nowadays.

Ok, I haven't been into computers as long as some of the older guys here, But I remember having to replace the family computer's hard drive a good ten years back and we got a 1260 megabyte hard drive... That was about $120. Ok... so basically we are talking 1 gigabyte is equivalent to $120... Now, multiply that by a 300 gigabyte hard drive... Back then, that would be a $36,000 hard drive (if they don't discount it at all as you go up on the hard drive size)

Now today... 300 gigabyte hard drive = about $100... Thats one BIG price drop. $0.30 a gig. I can live with that... I can live with that...

We are living in evermore wonderful times when it comes to computer technology.

I'm working on a high res photorealistic texture pack. High res as in 7 megapixels, e-mail me with suggestions.

Steve J
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 08:28
My parents never had a pc I didnt get to have my own pc until 1996...

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Three Score
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 10:48
programs will just get bigger as we change from 32bits to 64bits to 128bits(or hopefully 256) I mean think about it, stack size is doubled, every pointer is doubled, and every call address doubled so that 14gb game will go to atleast 16gb, unless of course they do some good optimizations for size

think about when internet becomes super fast to where its comparable to hdd speeds and when you can just go to a server and buy a gb for $0.50, think about it like an external harddrive you don't have to carry around

yup sure will be fun when that happens....

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 10:53
Quote: "That's not cheap!"

Compared to what they used to cost, it is.

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Grandma
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 12:12
Quote: "I remember when Phantasmagoria came out. Seven discs! BS!!! And it was a 2x CD-ROM drive, too... total crap! ah, memories"


Black Dahlia takes eight cd's. It was so hard i never came trough the first cd, lol. Hmmm think i'll try it again now as i bought myself a 400gb drive i have to install every thing i can get my hands on.

"Stupid World of Warcraft.
I have no money, I have no skills. All of the hot hot elvin women are dancing with the big warrior guys. It's college all over again."
Dazzag
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 15:19 Edited at: 5th Aug 2006 15:20
I remember the server room in Uni had like a pyramid of hard drives all plugged in to the main servers. Each hard drive being smaller in capacity and bigger in physical size as you went from the top to the bottom. If I remember rightly the total capacity for the whole college network was about 75Gb (one of my portable 2.5" non-power supply drives has 80gb...), with CompSci getting around half of it all to ourselves. Bwahahahahah..... I remember being seriously impressed at the time (many years ago). Hell, I remember a few years ago being impressed with one of clients upgrading to a 16 processor IBM with something like 20gb of RAM. For the whole of their online business basically. Not so impressive these days though. Give it a couple more years...

Oh, and I almost cried when I saw how big Blade Runner was. I took a serious amount of time cleaning up my drive to just install it. Think it was only the smallest install too... Luckily I've bought CD writers pretty much since they first came out so no more destroying data forever. Heh, my first CD-R was a single speed effort which cost me about £450 if I remember rightly. And don't get me started on the £100+ I spent on 512k RAM for my Atari ST....

Cheers

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Grandma
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 16:15
@Dazzag

wierd you mentioned Blade Runner, i was just innstalling it now. Haha, remember the camera at the store wich looks around the corner for the license plate? Amazing.

"Stupid World of Warcraft.
I have no money, I have no skills. All of the hot hot elvin women are dancing with the big warrior guys. It's college all over again."
Dazzag
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 16:41 Edited at: 5th Aug 2006 16:43
I can hardly remember it to tell the truth. I really didn't play it that much. Think I got to the bit on the rooftops where you get shot if you are not careful. If I remember rightly I wanted to install other games and there really wasn't enough room for Blade Runner and *any* other games really. Might dig it out again. That and Toon struck game, which I never really fully completed... Although I must devote some time to completing DOT on my PDA. Amazing how I can't remember half of the game, and yet I completed it once. Must have been around 2004 I believe. I was unemployed for 10 months after college and just played adventure games with my mates as well as epic Kick Off 2 tournaments.

Cheers

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 16:52
I only put about 6 games on my computer at any one time... Don't know why you need so many installed..

Three Score
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 18:50
lol I only have 1 big game, and then a few small ones(<4

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 18:59
I blame DDS format and other micro$oft standards. DDS is a pretty lame compression format, making pretty big files in most cases flooded with squares and discolouration. Why do developers use it? It's a "standard". MP3 isn't the best out there, but it's frequently used. Why? It's a "standard". Intels aren't the best processors in terms of performance, but they're still widely used. Why? It's a "standard". I'm sick of standards.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
Three Score
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 19:09
lol I use .wma for my music(my cdplayer supports wma so...) smaller filesizes and better quality


yea standards are quite stupid, if I made a standard it would be to use flash as an image format, quite good compression... of course every os would have to have a flash port so....

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 5th Aug 2006 20:02
The Blade Runner game was pretty good - managed to complete it with different endings...

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soapyfish
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Posted: 6th Aug 2006 03:15
Games aside. I've just bought a 250gb external hard drive for my Mac becuase it was filling up with digital photos like there's no tomorrow.

I've got 80gb on the Windows machine I'm using now and I don't think I've EVER had less than 20gb of space on it (although I don't play many games on it. I stuck in the factory restore cd about a year ago and since then the only game I've installed has been Sid Meier's Pirates!)

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Osiris
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Posted: 6th Aug 2006 04:57
Grr, my moms work has 50 TB of space and about 300 firewalls thad be cool...

Phaelax
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Posted: 6th Aug 2006 09:28
Exactly how many digital images do you need to fill up 100GB would you say?

I got about 2000 images taking up about 300mb or so. So unless they're all uncompressed bitmaps or you have a really really large family album, I dont see how.

Quote: "Grr, my moms work has 50 TB of space and about 300 firewalls thad be cool..."

My friend has 1TB in his mac. I think he's already used 800gb. (he's a video editor though)


I should scan some of the ads in my old amiga magazines. The price for a 1mb (yes i said mb as in megabyte) upgrade was ridiculous.

"Using Unix is the computing equivalent of listening only to music by David Cassidy" - Rob Pike
Dazzag
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Posted: 6th Aug 2006 14:50
Quote: "about 300 firewalls thad be cool"
Space is cool. Firewalls not... Too much red tape. Takes forever to try setting stuff up where I work. eg. to test a new CRS's (Central Reservation System) link I have to go through the hassle of contacting the CRS company itself (several departments normally), our own managed services department, not to mention the company we are programming for's IT manager. Serious hassle to essentially test out a client server system. Estimate 1 week of mucking around just to send a login message. 2 weeks if they are french (one of the biggest is annoyingly very french).

Oh, and work is very rarely good for employees when it comes to their computer systems. In our old place we had download speeds of around 2-3 megabytes a second like 10 years ago. If you came in on the weekend. Especially in the night. And if the directors liked you. Essentially in the week it was shared throughout the company and we rented out a good portion to some of our customers. On the other hand we know of one IT manager for one of our customers who is using a good portion of their bandwidth to download torrents like no tomorrow. But he is the IT manager. Very good for hiding your footsteps. As did another IT manager for one of our other customers who worked out a way to get credit card refunds on to his own card. Took them for a *lot* of money over the years. But again, he was the IT manager and could easily hide his tracks. It became pretty clear after he was caught why he had never authorised decent financial reports we could have easily provided for their company.... Didn't get done though. Mainly because they didn't want the publicity. Git.

Cheers

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Manic
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Posted: 6th Aug 2006 15:52
i know a guy who's got in excess of 7TB of storage, as far as i can tell, he doesn't really have a need for it.

I don't have a sig, live with it.
Three Score
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Posted: 6th Aug 2006 17:38
I got
142gb of space(100gb of it on an external hdd) and I really don't have a use for it all aside from some music recording and editing
I'm not using over 50% of any partiton/hdd right now so...

I just don't know who would need a TB unless of course their people like video editor or sound editing


btw
use .png when possible for photo's, their like compressed bitmaps, full qualtiy half size

soapyfish
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Posted: 7th Aug 2006 01:34 Edited at: 7th Aug 2006 01:35
On my Mac there's a good few hundred high quality jpegs taken with a point and shoot and I recently got a DSLR and started shooting in raw format which are much larger in file size. Better quality than jpeg if you take the time to work with them on a computer.

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Three Score
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Posted: 7th Aug 2006 01:47
yea raw lets you have tons of control right? like even better quality than bitmap

I tried saving a simple drawing as raw and it was like 20mb so yea you could use some space

soapyfish
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Posted: 7th Aug 2006 02:01 Edited at: 7th Aug 2006 02:03
When you take a pic in jpeg the camera has to compress the picture so the fial image is the camera's 'opinion' of the best possible image.

A raw file is the data exactly as it hit the image sensor and because your computer's (hopefully) more powerful than the camera you can tweak it to much greater effect. Ofcourse if you just want to take pictures, or you're doing it for a job and aren't getting paid for the pc work then raw probably wouldn't be for you.

RAW!!!

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 7th Aug 2006 08:15
Quote: "When I had a 120MB hard drive in my 486, I was upset when Doom 2 had a 30MB install In 10 years we'll have 80TB hard drives and wonder why games take up 10TB when they used to just take up 10GB"


I disagree. I personally believe that although HD space is going some revelations, the inevitable fact is that we WILL hit a wall and even though I can’t quote the article word for word what it said was pretty convincing. The fact is that you can only cram magnetic fields so close to each other before they begin to interfere with each other. Now the article stated that we were rather close to that boundary as is. The revelation that was made is something I don’t fully comprehend (Bad explanation) but it has something to do with making the fields perpendicular to each other (I think) or rotating them… not certain.

Also, games can only have so much before the ‘improvements’ are not visible to the player. Unless sometime between now and your mythical 80TB era we develop keener eye sight and bigger monitors (yeah, so big we can’t see everything), what would the point be of doubling the texture size and polys if we can’t see the difference?

And So WHAT to the first person who mentions holography; games are already in 3D, you don’t need more data to make a game project 3D, it already is within the computer. Now the end run is that there are only two things that can warrant more space, Sound, and extended game play (more model and texture data for more levels). And I mean AFTER the maximum achievement has occurred.

Now, before I leave for your subjective scrutiny let me ask this one question. If Electronic Arts hates piracy, why would they make their games install everything to the HD? I understand the speed enhancements, but a no cd crack (which leads to piracy of the software) is much easier if all the files are all registered to the hard drive. That is one of the things that has changed over the years, many games fully install themselves to the HD (or have minor alternative thingy’s). Apposed to the past where games could install only 30mb while the game itself was 300mb.

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Jeku
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Posted: 7th Aug 2006 09:41 Edited at: 7th Aug 2006 09:42
Quote: "The revelation that was made is something I don’t fully comprehend (Bad explanation) but it has something to do with making the fields perpendicular to each other (I think) or rotating them… not certain"


If I were you I wouldn't quote articles willy-nilly when you forget all of the facts.

People have been predicting walls in technology for years. It hasn't come yet, so whether it comes tomorrow is anyone's guess. My figures with the 80TB hard drive were merely based on the speed increases in technology that have come in the past 15 years that I've had a PC.

Quote: "Now, before I leave for your subjective scrutiny let me ask this one question. If Electronic Arts hates piracy, why would they make their games install everything to the HD?"


I think I have an idea. Basically most people hate disc-swapping, and since many games come on multi-CDs, then it's a hassle to switch disks to load levels or cinematics, don't you think?

And back when hard drives were small (as in less than 200MB), most CD-ROM games didn't give you the option to install the cinematics to your HD. People who pirated them basically said "screw it" and didn't trade the game with the movies intact.

Quote: "but a no cd crack"


Nowadays if someone wants to pirate a game, they'll just copy the entire CDs or DVDs to blank disks, *and* use the no-CD crack. You can't win with piracy, so it's good that you can do a full install of a game to your HD--- makes it more convenient for the gameplayer in my opinion. Obviously companies like EA have unlimited bank accounts for R&D to figure this kind of stuff out from the market


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UnderLord
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Posted: 7th Aug 2006 15:31
Haha, I remember whne I grabbed my dads C++ floppy drives...in 2001, 21 floppy drives to get C++ on my computer, little did I know I could have downloaded it much faster.....

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Tachyon
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Posted: 7th Aug 2006 19:06
I just got linux running on my laptop without HD from 1Gb memory stick. It takes only about 100Mb with fluxbox and some applications.
Now I want to develop java on it and the SDK itself takes over 100Mb, more than whole system!

Now it's just a matter of compromisses, do I want to listen Subroc's "You close your windows", Marvin's "Reasons to be miserable", or Keygen tunes in college.
Anyway, Im not so worried about games, as netris and moonbuggy are small enough and satisfy my gaming needs (both console games )

Osiris
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Posted: 7th Aug 2006 21:04
Quote: "I disagree. I personally believe that although HD space is going some revelations, the inevitable fact is that we WILL hit a wall and even though I can’t quote the article word for word what it said was pretty convincing. The fact is that you can only cram magnetic fields so close to each other before they begin to interfere with each other. Now the article stated that we were rather close to that boundary as is. The revelation that was made is something I don’t fully comprehend (Bad explanation) but it has something to do with making the fields perpendicular to each other (I think) or rotating them… not certain.
"


Unless you dont use a magnetic field, there are other ways to store data.

Quote: "Nowadays if someone wants to pirate a game, they'll just copy the entire CDs or DVDs to blank disks, *and* use the no-CD crack. You can't win with piracy, so it's good that you can do a full install of a game to your HD--- makes it more convenient for the gameplayer in my opinion. Obviously companies like EA have unlimited bank accounts for R&D to figure this kind of stuff out from the market "


Unless of course you dont use the no cd crack for pirating and you just use it because the disk became too scratched or something, maybe you become sick of looking for the right cd.

Les Horribres
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Posted: 8th Aug 2006 08:51
Quote: "I think I have an idea. Basically most people hate disc-swapping, and since many games come on multi-CDs, then it's a hassle to switch disks to load levels or cinematics, don't you think?"


I can understand where your heading on that, and I agree. Truth told, any software I get I automatically look for a no-cd patch because spending the time digging out a cd really doesn't seem needed.

What I don't understand is why agressive action isn't used. It seems to me that the reason no-cd patches are in abundance is because of most files being associated on the hard drive already. What I ask is why not make the CD (or DVD) a more intricate part of the game.

I guess I just don't see the point of making it easy on the people stealing from the company. Most games, even if I can't find a cd-fix, I can remove the disc after it has booted and play with no issue. My question is why.


Also, doesn't the speed increases have to do with optimization of components used and design not the physical boundrys that exist? I can understand boundrys involving the sensitivity of the sensors seeming to be insurpassable obstructions, yet how can you deny the physical aspects?

Yes, I agree that if we abandon magnetics we can acheive greater space, there is no denying that, but I thought that the reference of hard drive is of current tech. I mean that what we use now is called a hard drive, a flash drive masquading as a hard drive is still a flash drive is it not? It may be refered to as a hard drive but then what propper name do you refer to the current standard hard drive?

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