Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / guitar players

Author
Message
Phaelax
DBPro Master
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 8th Aug 2006 12:07
I think the industry is running out of file-sharers to sue. Lately, the new thing seems to be tablature sites. I very often visit OLGA for tabs but that's under some legal issues. So now I search elsewhere and find yet another tab site being sued by NMPA.

http://www.guitartabs.cc/
http://www.olga.net


Tablature is NOT copyright infringement! This is ridiculous.

"Using Unix is the computing equivalent of listening only to music by David Cassidy" - Rob Pike
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 8th Aug 2006 12:28
Don't forget about mysongbook.com, although that has spawned a new site, gprotab.net, which is just about as good.

Tablature is DEFINITELY not illegal, but they've got enough scare tactics to make these sites think they are. I think it's sick.


Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 8th Aug 2006 12:42
This is a tough one, I don't see people "stealing" the music by getting tabs, however it certainly could easily be considered copyright infringement. Someone is posting a derivative work from a copyrighted piece. Lyric sheets could also be considered a infringment of the copyright you could not post a poem, piece of artwork whatever that does not belong to you and expect that if the owner wanted to sue for breaking their copyright that they wouldn't have solid ground to stand on. I guess this could fall into the category of reverse engineering which is generally illegal. It may be our opinion that it should not be illegal, and it may have gone unchecked for a long time, but when it comes down to it these sites are most likely breaking the law.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 8th Aug 2006 12:47
See, the problem is that most musicians really dont care about things like tabs. It's like an artist getting upset over fanart: it just doesnt happen. However, with the RIAA and NMPA on their trip right now, music is being nitpicked to the bone, when it really doesnt need to be. What the NMPA is doing is killing and discouraging creativity amongst musicians.


Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 8th Aug 2006 12:57 Edited at: 8th Aug 2006 13:00
Quote: "The U.S. Copyright Law specifically provides that the right to make and distribute an arrangement, adaptation, abridgement, or transcription of a copyrighted work such as a song belongs to the copyright owner of that work. Virtually all of the songs on the tab and other music web sites are protected by copyright. Thus, any player, whether an amateur or a top professional, needs the permission of the copyright owner of a song to make an arrangement or a tab version of that song and to post it on the Internet. Otherwise, the arranger and the web site are infringing that copyright. "


US Copyright Law. So I guess yes Tabs are illegal, looks like alot of the hubub is actually coming from sheet music producers who pay quite a bit of money it seems to produce said sheet music, and they are pretty upset with the free sites posting what they have paid for. Guess I understand that If I paid microsoft for the right to distribute Office with computers I build I would be pretty miffed at Joe down the street dumping it onto systems for free when he does not have the legal right to do so.



EDIT
Quote: "most musicians really dont care about things like tabs."

Well if musicians started seeing more paychecks from sheet music companies for legal transcriptions I bet they would care a hell of alot when something yanked it from them.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
IanG
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Sep 2004
Location: Cyberspace
Posted: 8th Aug 2006 13:00
i'm just learning guitar - been playing for about 4 months - and these tab sites are invaluable for anyone who is learning, okay most of the tabs aren't correct but they sound right and are great for anyone learning, especially broke students

both of the organisations are going mad, they are just doing something to make them look like they are doing something - its bloody stupid


amd athlon xp 2600+,1280mb,FX 5200 128mb,200gb & 120gb,xp pro sp2
Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 8th Aug 2006 13:07
Quote: "both of the organisations are going mad, they are just doing something to make them look like they are doing something - its bloody stupid"


Alot of the sites will not come down from what I read, and some of them are free sites, but they have leaglly obtained the rights to post the Tabs. As for saying its stupid, I am guessing since you are on the forum you are a programmer/designer etc. WIll you think its stupid when you invest a ton of time and money into say a new FPS engine that is really good and you want to sell, then someone blatantly rips off your code, sure a few lines are changed (its their interpretation) and gives it away free? Or you write a would be best selling novel only to have the sales squashed because someone else reprints your book, changes a few names and posts it online? Copyright is serious buisness for a reason it is there to protect the original author, and whoever may have purchased rights from that author.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 8th Aug 2006 13:22 Edited at: 8th Aug 2006 13:23
Thats insane, its easy to know if someone has copyrighted your song. I even tested to see if it works, I chucked in a variation of a part of the Unforgiven by Metallica to see if my brother noticed, he did. If they're gonna make online tabs illegal, then make tab books illegal. But as its US copyright laws, in theory US laws should have no effect on the UK, but I bet they do.

ultimateguitar tabs is another good site for tabs, they have quite a lot on there.

Phaelax
DBPro Master
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 8th Aug 2006 13:25
You're right about the copyright law, it does technically say that tablatures are illegal.

Quote: " WIll you think its stupid when you invest a ton of time and money into say a new FPS engine that is really good and you want to sell, then someone blatantly rips off your code, sure a few lines are changed (its their interpretation) and gives it away free?"


That's a little different. We use tabs to learn songs from our favorite artists. We don't try to record them as our own. (well maybe vanilla ice or puff daddy would) I've been to a ton of concerts where bands play other people's music, its just a tribute to them. Evenesence played a Korn song(yuck) but I doubt Korn will be suing them for stealing. And I'm sure any strickly tribute bands out there (like the pink floyd one) pays some sort of royalties.

If I had an album released, I'd probably post the sheet music myself. Let the fans play it and have fun. If they try to call the songs their own and sell them, well then I would sue.

Unfortunately, it looks as though the copyright law will actually support the NMPA's case.

"Using Unix is the computing equivalent of listening only to music by David Cassidy" - Rob Pike
Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 8th Aug 2006 13:39
Quote: "That's a little different. We use tabs to learn songs from our favorite artists. "


Granted thats what we as the players are using it for, however the suit is against the sites not us. Most of these sites are raking in cash from ads from this as well. I don't think they have any problem with people using tabs, just with where they come from. As for my engine statement, yes it is a little different, but it comes down to the person posting it not the person using it You may want to look at my FPS engine to learn from it and not actually use my source, but how it was obtained would still be wrong.

Quote: "If they're gonna make online tabs illegal, then make tab books illegal. But as its US copyright laws, in theory US laws should have no effect on the UK, but I bet they do."


The Tab magazines like Guitar World etc pay for the right to publish those tabs so they are not breaking any laws. As for your second thought, most countries (except China it seems) honor the copyrights or artists no matter where the copyright is held.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
empty
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 8th Aug 2006 14:43 Edited at: 8th Aug 2006 14:43
Quote: "I've been to a ton of concerts where bands play other people's music, its just a tribute to them. Evenesence played a Korn song(yuck) but I doubt Korn will be suing them for stealing. And I'm sure any strickly tribute bands out there (like the pink floyd one) pays some sort of royalties."

Every band (or the organiser/record company) that performs songs by other artists has to pay royalties.
In fact cover songs are a completely different kind of thing. You are generally allowed to do a cover version of a song and perform it live on stage or even sell it on CDs ((provided you pay royalties). However, if you want to print the lyrics of cover songs in your booklet it gets far more complicated.


Play Nice! Play Basic! -- Styx PlugIn- Coming Soon!
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 8th Aug 2006 16:27
Quote: "The Tab magazines like Guitar World etc pay for the right to publish those tabs so they are not breaking any laws. As for your second thought, most countries (except China it seems) honor the copyrights or artists no matter where the copyright is held."


So as long as they get their money they're happy...Which is silly, they get plenty of it from selling CD's, performing live, at least let rookie pennyless students legally play the tabs of their favourite songs so they can practice. I mean I don't want to go on the internet searching for an Opeth book, a Metallica book and a Led Zepplin book so I can play, Leper Affinity, Unforgiven and Stairway to heaven, too pricey. So they're not stopping me, I dount they could anyway.

Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 8th Aug 2006 22:22
Quote: "What the NMPA is doing is killing and discouraging creativity amongst musicians."


I don't see that at all. How are they killing creativity by suing people who are illegally distributing tabs?


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 9th Aug 2006 00:36
Quote: "I mean I don't want to go on the internet searching for an Opeth book, a Metallica book and a Led Zepplin book so I can play, Leper Affinity, Unforgiven and Stairway to heaven, too pricey."


So don't look for the books, figure out the songs yourself you learn more that way anyway, besides a very large percentage of the tabs online are just wrong or promote bad practice. The ones I have found that are generally correct are ones that more then likely were ripped from a magazine anyway (usually pretty easy to tell a Wolf Marshall transcription compared to Jimbo from corner).

Quote: "So as long as they get their money they're happy...Which is silly, they get plenty of it from selling CD's, performing live"

Yeah like people don't already illegally copy CD's and file share the mp3s. You know what makes most bands/artists big and popular? Money, alot of it. Companies make a huge investment in bands and often for a national act do not break even till well into the gold area and the musicians themselves make no real money till well beyond that (Though they use an awful lot of credit and end up broke when things end a few years later).

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 9th Aug 2006 00:55
Quote: "
I don't see that at all. How are they killing creativity by suing people who are illegally distributing tabs?"

Because rather than let the public create and learn from these tabs (its not the sites creating the tabs, its the people), you have to learn your music from what specific companies provide. If no one is providing a tab book for say Dredg, newer players are SOL, whereas otherwise people would not only be exposed to that music, but have the chance to learn how those songs were made and how to play it themselves. Basically, I always found tablature as a great learning experience when I was beginning to play, and they're taking that avenue from us.


Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 9th Aug 2006 02:34
Quote: "So don't look for the books, figure out the songs yourself you learn more that way anyway, besides a very large percentage of the tabs online are just wrong or promote bad practice. The ones I have found that are generally correct are ones that more then likely were ripped from a magazine anyway (usually pretty easy to tell a Wolf Marshall transcription compared to Jimbo from corner)."


Yeah true, they are a bit off, I've seen two versions of Leper Affinity and both are differant. The best I've probaly got from ear (well actually came accross the tunes improvising, all by luck) was Green Day and Seven Nation Army (White stripes) Nothing to be proud of I like to look at tabs to learn things, I can improvise my own stuff quite well with tune, but I haven't got any of the solo-y type stuff, I think if I could learn to do the Leper Affinity solo properly, I'd be happy and would have learnt a valuable skill.

Quote: "Yeah like people don't already illegally copy CD's and file share the mp3s. You know what makes most bands/artists big and popular? Money, alot of it. Companies make a huge investment in bands and often for a national act do not break even till well into the gold area and the musicians themselves make no real money till well beyond that (Though they use an awful lot of credit and end up broke when things end a few years later)."


Its unfair that people download music, and I'm against it...unless its something like 50 cent or Britney Spears, I'd love to see them go bankrupt But I agree with ya, the big bands are from big investments, a lot of very good quality bands don't get the recognition they deserve, you never see stuff like Opeth or Katatonia on Scuzz or Kerrang, heck I don't think I've seen Children of Bodom on there, but rich emo prats who cry about their last groupy leaving them for Aerosmith, like Blink 182's new band.

Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 9th Aug 2006 02:35
If someone is going to be uptight about tabs, its time to drown that someone, and their children, so we don't end up with other silly someones running around. I personally don't know many serious musicians who even use tabs... they're mostly used for beginners, or by people just looking to kill some time by learning a new song (of the people I know anyway). So why go after them? Seems rather pointless imo. If some crappy little cover band in Topeka Kansas is playing "Freebird" for free beer to an audience of 15 people, why should anyone in the music industry care? And how many serious bands use tabs to write their music as opposed to sheet music, or a chord sheet, or just writing it to memory? Tabs are great in that they help people learn how to play guitar. I know lots of people who used them to learn how to play. It's not like anyone takes tabs and uses them to record hit remakes

Something funny that some of you might find interesting: Metallica is working with Apple on releasing the full Metallica catalog on iTunes. Yay capitalism!


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Phaelax
DBPro Master
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 9th Aug 2006 06:40
I dont think artists really make that much from CDs, mostly live performances.

I'm not sure if OLGA has adverts on their pages. Maybe, I can't remember for sure. I been using them since the 90's.

"Using Unix is the computing equivalent of listening only to music by David Cassidy" - Rob Pike
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 9th Aug 2006 07:16
Quote: "Most of these sites are raking in cash from ads from this as well."

But is this money that the other companies will ever see anyway? Is this money even from the people that go on the site? It's way far too off to consider that any kind of loss.


BearCDPOLD
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Oct 2003
Location: AZ,USA
Posted: 9th Aug 2006 08:10
Even if all the tab sites go down if you're working with a teacher chances are they'll be able to transcribe a song they'll hear anyway. I figured out Blue Collar Man on keyboard and told my friends about it. Sue me now oh mighty record god. If they're going to have a pissy fit over they're going to have to start putting out mass amounts of Real Books with some good songs in it. I got my little brother one--he's the big guitar player in the family--and despite all these good reviews it only had a few really good songs. Current guitar song compilation books just don't have the selection that these tab sites have. I just wish they had chord graphs or something for Wagner's Tristan und Isolde online, now that's what I call a double standard.


I'm going to eat you!
Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 9th Aug 2006 08:57
Seriously. Any guitarist whose been playing for a decent amount of time should be able to write his or her own tabs by listening to a song. Someone needs to buy these guys some books or something... keep them occupied so they stop suing people


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 9th Aug 2006 11:54
Quote: "But is this money that the other companies will ever see anyway? Is this money even from the people that go on the site? It's way far too off to consider that any kind of loss."


Does not matter if they will ever see it, if I post Tom Clancy's current novel online and people pay me money to advertise on my site I am making money from an illegal action. There is a loss, if 5000 people use a free tab of say Enter Sandman for free, if even one of those people would buy a tab book, or magazine with the tab then there is a loss no matter how small.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 9th Aug 2006 13:24
Quote: "There is a loss, if 5000 people use a free tab of say Enter Sandman for free, if even one of those people would buy a tab book, or magazine with the tab then there is a loss no matter how small.
"

Then if those 5000 people are deprived from being able to use that tab because of one person who would buy their book, then isnt that a far greater loss to the people?


Phaelax
DBPro Master
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 9th Aug 2006 17:29
Quote: "Even if all the tab sites go down if you're working with a teacher chances are they'll be able to transcribe a song they'll hear anyway."

My teacher would record our sessions. I wonder how many "illegal" copies of tom petty I have right now?


Quote: " if 5000 people use a free tab of say Enter Sandman for free"

I bought the black album and ride the lightning books, so I'm good there.

"Using Unix is the computing equivalent of listening only to music by David Cassidy" - Rob Pike
Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 9th Aug 2006 18:37 Edited at: 9th Aug 2006 18:44
Quote: "Then if those 5000 people are deprived from being able to use that tab because of one person who would buy their book, then isnt that a far greater loss to the people?"


OK then, make everything free because it would be good for people. No more will we have to buy music, pay for movies or videogames, all art of all kinds will be free start passing out free copies of photshop and DBP (hope they still want to pay for their bandwidth after we no longer pay for their products). Of course do not expect there to be much new stuff after a while because if people can't make a living doing it these will all drop to hobbies and we will all be looking forward to the next pong clone.

It's a loss people will have to suck up, or put some of their money up for. You may see new sites pop up by people who have the legal right to post the tabs and they could still be free or resonably priced and we could end up with much better tabs anyway. I used to read a few of the mags and they usually had someone (I remember Kirk Hammett and Alex Skolnich alot) post tabs and an article of one of their songs, and it was not just a tab there was generally a whole article that went along with it including what effects and what settings they used to get different sounds. I may have to pay for it, but I would much rather have material like that to work from then some yutz posting what they think is right (and is almost always way off).

Quote: "My teacher would record our sessions. I wonder how many "illegal" copies of tom petty I have right now?"

I am not 100% sure, but from the recent research and law reading I have done this seems to fall under the "Fair Use" umbrella as it was developed by either yourself or a teacher as a direct lesson for you with intent of educational advancement (Loosely paraphrased from all that darned reading).

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Seppuku Arts
Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 9th Aug 2006 20:08
Quote: "OK then, make everything free because it would be good for people. No more will we have to buy music, pay for movies or videogames, all art of all kinds will be free start passing out free copies of photshop and DBP (hope they still want to pay for their bandwidth after we no longer pay for their products). Of course do not expect there to be much new stuff after a while because if people can't make a living doing it these will all drop to hobbies and we will all be looking forward to the next pong clone."


Well if we make everything free then we suffer, because well if no one is making money from it, they wouldn't do it, its bad business, like making biscuits for Pandas. So by putting a price there, people make money and continue doing it, people make transcribe tabs as a hobby and distribute it, others try to make money out of it by getting help from the companies. Similar to how you get bands who do it as a hobby, other make money out of their music, some even play other band's songs as tribute.

cheeseman
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Dec 2005
Location: look up...boo
Posted: 10th Aug 2006 02:25
ultimate-guitar.com
tabcrawler.com
etc... theres alot moreleft

i like redwall, videogames, and...CHEESE!!
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 10th Aug 2006 05:02
Quote: "OK then, make everything free because it would be good for people. No more will we have to buy music, pay for movies or videogames, all art of all kinds will be free start passing out free copies of photshop and DBP (hope they still want to pay for their bandwidth after we no longer pay for their products). Of course do not expect there to be much new stuff after a while because if people can't make a living doing it these will all drop to hobbies and we will all be looking forward to the next pong clone. "

No. How about let what has been going on for years go on for the sake of creativity and development and education, and let those who want the 100% perfect tabs of an album buy the book.


BearCDPOLD
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Oct 2003
Location: AZ,USA
Posted: 10th Aug 2006 05:48
Hobgoblin, the difference between distributing pirated copies of software, music or movies, and thinking up tabs and putting them online is that people are just writing down an approximation of how they think the song goes. It's not as though they broke into Tom Petty's house, stole all his sheet music and put it up for download online. They listened and transcribed and are sharing their work with others for the purpose of education.


I'm going to eat you!
Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 10th Aug 2006 07:58
Quote: "Hobgoblin, the difference between distributing pirated copies of software, music or movies, and thinking up tabs and putting them online is that people are just writing down an approximation of how they think the song goes. "


Have to disagree, people are not posting things like "Here is a solo I think would sound great in Song X" they are attempting to exactly recreate a copyrighted work, just because they are not exact in alot of cases makes it no less illegal. These people are not "thinking up" anything they are copying it. I cannot expect to copy Angela's Ashes almost word for word with a few minor interpretations and not get sued, I am breaking the law.

Quote: "No. How about let what has been going on for years go on for the sake of creativity and development and education, and let those who want the 100% perfect tabs of an album buy the book"


Just because they were not enforcing their rights all this time does not mean that they shouldn't now. As for education, someone will learn a whole lot more from figuring out a song for themselves then reading a tab, if you can't figure out a solo from a song you probably can't play it correctly anyway no matter how good the tab is. Tabs have already dumbed down our musicians as most no longer make any attempt to read music, so take away some of this free stuff and maybe if people are going to play they will actually learn theory and become better for it in the long run.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Mattman
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Jun 2003
Location: East Lansing
Posted: 10th Aug 2006 14:56
powertabs has been back for a while (although it might just be for previous file submitters, my friend says he can't get him but he might also just be dumb)

Why make sense when you could make brownies?
Phaelax
DBPro Master
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 11th Aug 2006 04:41
I was just browsing for alice in chains tabs cause I'm bored and clicked on alien ant farm. Here's a quote from the author's tab that's posted:
"THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY TO PLAY SMOOTH CRIMAL THIS IS SRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOOK!"

Certainly not helping my case with wanting to keep tabs publicly free, but who knows how many people copy books as well. Though he only posted 1 measure from the song with G,A,B power chords, something anyone with a year under their belt could figure out.

"Using Unix is the computing equivalent of listening only to music by David Cassidy" - Rob Pike
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 11th Aug 2006 08:43
Quote: "Just because they were not enforcing their rights all this time does not mean that they shouldn't now. As for education, someone will learn a whole lot more from figuring out a song for themselves then reading a tab, if you can't figure out a solo from a song you probably can't play it correctly anyway no matter how good the tab is. Tabs have already dumbed down our musicians as most no longer make any attempt to read music, so take away some of this free stuff and maybe if people are going to play they will actually learn theory and become better for it in the long run."

I started learning tabs. I am better, and have more theory knowledge than most people who have been playing 5x more than I have. It's not what you learn from, its what you learn. I used tabs as a supplement rather than a sole learning tool, but if I hadn't had the ability to visually see what I was going to play, then things may have turned out different. Also, a tab was a heck of a lot cheaper than buying the album that had the song with the solo or cool chord progression that you wanted to learn.

A singer in the Bay Area just pulled off a whole charity thing using slightly altered transcripts of Disney songs because Disney was going to charge him $4000 per song, per performance, when he had two weeks of performances. Is this fairness, or capitalism at its best? Luckily there are people who get paid to alter original songs just enough so that they aren't considered the same song, and then are able to have those peices performed. Legally. Sort of like interpreting a song and giving it to others for their use... I wonder if each one of these tabs are being checked to see if they're close enough to be considered the same peice? But I'm sure its okay, because these tabs were influenced by the original peice, so therefore they must be the same peice, right?


Xarshi
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Dec 2005
Location: Ohio
Posted: 11th Aug 2006 09:42
hah,I just go to 911tabs.com if I want tabs. I just tend to listen to songs and play 'em though. Its rather simple,find what tuning they are in,try some random stuff,if you get one chord or so right,move on from there. I leared a song by Becoming the Archetype by just playing a random part in the middle of the song,then moving to the beginning then ending at the end(and if you wonder what song,if any of you know this band,its Elegy). I've only had my own guitar for less than a year and can listen to songs and play 'em.

Woohoo. DP is finally released!
Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 13th Aug 2006 12:40
Quote: "A singer in the Bay Area just pulled off a whole charity thing using slightly altered transcripts of Disney songs because Disney was going to charge him $4000 per song, per performance, when he had two weeks of performances. Is this fairness, or capitalism at its best?"


Wow have to say I am suprised by this for a few reasons.

1) Disney is usually pretty good about charity work/events.

2) Unless it is being recorded in someway (for more then 4 seconds I believe) Live performances of other's material is not copyright infringement, the exception to that rule generally being something designed specifically as a live performance(such as a play, stand up comedy routine, or specific performance art) and the exceptions to being able to perform even these can be negated under the satire laws (that's how Weird Al got away with Amish Paradise when Coolio did not want it made).

3) The price seems way out of line for such usage, again unless it was being recorded for sale to raise more money. Sounds more like an Urban myth than something that actually happened. (waits for the I know a guy who knows this guy response)



I don't really have anything against Tabs, I don't use them generally because sight reading them is near impossible. I do jot down songs for myself all the time, but prefer doing so as sheet music. If I want to let my friend use it (plays piano) him seeing [3 5 5 5 3] is going to mean nothing. I think these sites have been great for alot of people but sometimes the gravy train stops and it gets to a point for you to make a decision, do I now pay for my Tabs or do I learn them myself.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 13th Aug 2006 14:12
Quote: "1) Disney is usually pretty good about charity work/events.

2) Unless it is being recorded in someway (for more then 4 seconds I believe) Live performances of other's material is not copyright infringement, the exception to that rule generally being something designed specifically as a live performance(such as a play, stand up comedy routine, or specific performance art) and the exceptions to being able to perform even these can be negated under the satire laws (that's how Weird Al got away with Amish Paradise when Coolio did not want it made).

3) The price seems way out of line for such usage, again unless it was being recorded for sale to raise more money. Sounds more like an Urban myth than something that actually happened. (waits for the I know a guy who knows this guy response)
"

I have no reason to argue with you, you believe what you will, but then again your research into what I brought up was probably minimal, if any. Sounds like? Well, a lot of things can "sound like" something else, but I would have no reason to argue with you about this, as what you've stated previously was for the most part correct. I am speaking from experience... I don't know if the concerts were recorded or what. But tell me, how do you know how good Disney is with charities? Also, some of the original music used in the movies is not owned by Disney at all.


indi
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 13th Aug 2006 15:14 Edited at: 13th Aug 2006 15:15
why do you think cover bands are around without problems.
I think you will find most countries have laws to allow musicians to play any song they know regardless if it is a cover of a famous song.

The problem arises when you sample actual music or components from the original song.
Then there is a certain amount you can before it becomes copyright.
Tv stations flash a 2 second component of a song to avoid paying royalties.
Its within the right to play a section of the music provided its within the limit of time dictated by the countries copyright usage policies.

your stuff lives on for 50 years after your death and then becomes public domain, eg copyright free.
If a family member re instates your music as say a best of album, they increase the copyright length, and hence it wont become public domain.

as for tabulator restrictions, this is really getting ridiculous.

Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 13th Aug 2006 15:16 Edited at: 13th Aug 2006 15:19
Quote: "I have no reason to argue with you, you believe what you will, but then again your research into what I brought up was probably minimal, if any. Sounds like? Well, a lot of things can "sound like" something else, but I would have no reason to argue with you about this, as what you've stated previously was for the most part correct. I am speaking from experience... I don't know if the concerts were recorded or what. But tell me, how do you know how good Disney is with charities? Also, some of the original music used in the movies is not owned by Disney at all."


I tried a few googles to see if there was an article about it but could not find one. I say Disney because that is who you mentioned as wanting the money, and Disney's history of chartiable work and contributions is pretty well known (there no Bill Gates but who is).

I speak from experience on the matter of live performances however. In 1988 my drummer and I wrote a song called "Free" our band recorded it and we got some airplay on the local college stations and played it out alot and it became our signature song. Awhile later we added another guitarist, Chuck, to our band and we played together a couple of years. We eventually got rid of Chuck for a few problems and he formed a new band. They began performing Free at their shows and I went to a lawyer to see if I could get him to stop since he had no claim to the song and was not even in the band when it was written, it was then I found that copyright did not cover live performances, It also did not cover them videotaping themselves performing the song as long as the recording remained "personal property" and they did not distribute it.

To keep debate out of the other thread when you say if its innacurate enough it is no longer illegal, The innacuracies would have to be so much that you could not recognize the material as being derived from the original. I'm sure if you have gone on to college you have gotten one of those handouts about "What is Plagurism" and that 100% acuracy to the original source is not required to fulfill a plagurism claim. Look what happened to John Fogherty when he was sued by his old record company for plagurising himself with the song "Centerfield" it was found to be a derivative work and the only reason he escaped was a judge ruled an artist could not plagurize themself, had it been anyone else however those mere three chords in the bridge would have spelled out a loss.

Quote: "your stuff lives on for 50 years after your death and then becomes public domain, eg copyright free."


Be nice if that was like that here, some couple bought the rights to "Happy Birthday to you" and whenever it pops up in a show or whatever they get paid (believe Rosie O'donell said it was $750)

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
indi
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 13th Aug 2006 15:23
in traditional art, you make progressive transitions of an art piece.

eg: start with a flower, and slowly over time break it down over many canvases, until you have deconstructed it in a way you feel is right.

This is why you see 5 of 100 in the corner of some artwork is a progressive piece of work linked to a plethora of works behind it to achieve a result.

this is akin to what john fog was doing if i understand you correctly.

as for the cover band thing, yup i agree, we posted at the same time.

In television advertising there is a creature called a similar.
Its a song that sounds very similar to the actual song in question.
This saves on royalties to the original creator.
Its sneaky but legal.

If you remember Ween the band, a similar was used here in australia a while back on a tv add.

The ironic thing about that band is they now work for tv commercials and tv shows creating music.

Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 13th Aug 2006 15:38
Quote: "They began performing Free at their shows and I went to a lawyer to see if I could get him to stop since he had no claim to the song and was not even in the band when it was written, it was then I found that copyright did not cover live performances, It also did not cover them videotaping themselves performing the song as long as the recording remained "personal property" and they did not distribute it."

What does this have to do with the topic though? He was claiming the works as his own and not yours, and making money off of it. Completely different than tablature.

But about changing the songs, the way they do it is change the chord progressions to feel the same as the original without being the original, and singing the same way. So it really isn't the same song at all, but it sounds and feels the same to most people.

Also, getting sued over something is one thing, actually doing something illegal is another. Punk rock uses the same basic chord progressions usually, yet there was no illegal activity there. It's not really the chords in the song that make it theft, its the way its played. Even still, you can even play it the same and it won't be illegal. Listen to the verse riff of "Boot Scoot'n Boogie" by Brooks n Dunn, and the chorus riff of "Watermelon Crawl" by Tracy Byrd. Same thing, different position on the guitar, no copyright infringement. The main chord progression in Pachelbel's Canon in D, and the chorus in Green Day's "Basketcase". Perfectly fine. Green Day's "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" blatant rip off of Oasis's "Wonderwall" is more what I would, and the law would, consider copyright infringement, however.


Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 13th Aug 2006 20:13
Quote: "What does this have to do with the topic though? He was claiming the works as his own and not yours, and making money off of it. Completely different than tablature."


Actually this was in reference to the disney/ singer paying $4000 a song thing and part of why I was saying it sounded like an urban myth.

Quote: "In television advertising there is a creature called a similar.
Its a song that sounds very similar to the actual song in question.
This saves on royalties to the original creator.
Its sneaky but legal."


Yup this happens alot and the artists who do this are very careful to get the "feel" of a song without it being the song. A tab being incorrect or off from the original is not the same of course people don't post "here I s a song I wrote thats sounds like Metallica" they post "Here is Fade to Black, there might be a few places its not quite right but its really close". The first of those is designed as an original work the second is an attempt to deconstruct a copyrighted piece, and thus illegal even if it is wrong.

Quote: "Punk rock uses the same basic chord progressions usually, yet there was no illegal activity there."


Some things become public property, especially when it is hard to trace to an original author No one can copyright G C D or other similar progressions, as they have been around forever, but again Tabs are an attempt to recreate a song.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 14th Aug 2006 03:10
Quote: "Some things become public property, especially when it is hard to trace to an original author No one can copyright G C D or other similar progressions, as they have been around forever, but again Tabs are an attempt to recreate a song."

Whilst giving the artist full credit and recognition for the song. So what you're saying is its OK to steal GCD because its "hard" to trace the author? GCD is probably no more than 90 years old at most, it shouldn't be too hard to trace. Heck, people have been playing Parker Blues all the way to this day, and its named after the guy who made it, but never have there been any legal problems with that.
Quote: "Yup this happens alot and the artists who do this are very careful to get the "feel" of a song without it being the song."

I'm pretty sure thats what I have been saying for 3 posts now :\ Also, legally it doesn't matter why someone created a song which can be compared to a Metallica song, only the end product matters, so if the "original work" you speak of is the same as "Here is Fade to Black", then it won't matter. Only the accuracy will matter, and if its far enough off, it is completely legal, and that isn't something that these organizations are checking for.


Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 14th Aug 2006 04:24 Edited at: 14th Aug 2006 04:38
Quote: "Only the accuracy will matter, and if its far enough off, it is completely legal, and that isn't something that these organizations are checking for."



Quote: "Plagiarism can take a broad range of forms. At its simplest and most extreme, plagiarism involves putting one's own name on someone else's work; this is commonly seen in schools when a student submits a paper that someone else has written. Schools, colleges, and universities usually have explicit guidelines for reviewing and punishing plagiarism by students and faculty members. In copyright lawsuits, however, allegations of plagiarism are more often based on partial theft. It is not necessary to exactly duplicate another's work in order to infringe a copyright: it is sufficient to take a substantial portion of the copyrighted material. Thus, for example, plagiarism can include copying language or ideas from another novelist, basing a new song in large part on another's musical composition, or copying another artist's drawing or photograph."


When I speak of the original work I mean an original work not a rip, but perhaps it has the "tone" of metallica (ie. similar distortion and something you could picture James singing over). Just an example when I first heard Sevendust I thought "Is this a new Pantera song" I don't think they ripped them off but it sounded like something I would expect from Pantera.

The other above quote is just to show our legal definition of plagiarism and that innacuracies do not make a piece any more legal than an exact transcription.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 14th Aug 2006 04:41
Quote: "When I speak of the original work I mean an original work not a rip, but perhaps it has the "tone" of metallica (ie. similar distortion and something you could picture James singing over) The other above quote is just to show our legal definition of plagiarism and that innacuracies do not make a piece any more legal than an exact transcription."

Haha, true about original work, or Metallica could be suing about 50 bands right now, lol. The thing I was talking about in the innacuracies is when it is far enough from the song itself. I'm not saying if they miss a tempo change then it's not the same song, i was just saying that if it is innacurate ENOUGH, so that it cannot really be considered the same song, then it is legal.


indi
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 14th Aug 2006 04:43
Metallica are going to put their songs on Itunes.
just a few years short of everyone else boys.

Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 14th Aug 2006 05:16
Quote: "i was just saying that if it is innacurate ENOUGH, so that it cannot really be considered the same song, then it is legal."


Granted if a tab were pretty far off it might not be considered the same song (You play it and your friend says "what the hell is that" you say "Enter Sandman" and your buddy says "dude that is so wrong") it would likely be legal, but who would want those tabs anyway. As long as people put the title of the song they are tabbing up no matter how wrong it is it will be illegal as a derivative work, so to make it legal people would have to play the tabs and try to figure out what they are supposed to be.

Quote: "Metallica are going to put their songs on Itunes.
just a few years short of everyone else boys."


They may be late but they were one of the few bands that was smart enough not to sign a deal until they got one that let them keep the rights to their music. A big reason why many artists don't care to much about something like this is the fact that they do not own the rights to their own music.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
indi
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 14th Aug 2006 05:27
they kicked and screamed all the way through the napster debate, until they realized they were missing out on cash for songs.

the last album was total rubbish imo, and so will the newer stuff. I really liked a lot of older content they did, but they handled themselves badly with the p2p / online sales compartment of their business machine.

they also bought the rights to the documentary that came out a few years ago, it was rubbish imho as well. spiraling downwards into oblivion.

every artist retains the copyright to their music as mentioned in previous posts.
If they sold their rights, then its their own fault

lars company "the music company" doesn't own metallica older stuff if i recall.
I share the same birthday as that freak

Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 14th Aug 2006 05:29
Quote: "As long as people put the title of the song they are tabbing up no matter how wrong it is it will be illegal as a derivative work, so to make it legal people would have to play the tabs and try to figure out what they are supposed to be.
"

But what about bands with songs of the same name? Like band A has a song called "One Wish" and band B has a song called "One Wish", but the tab named "One Wish" doesnt sound like either, you're saying thats automatically illegal?


Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 14th Aug 2006 12:06
Quote: "every artist retains the copyright to their music as mentioned in previous posts.
If they sold their rights, then its their own fault"


Actually the copyright belongs to the music company in many instances, signing the rights away is common practice in the industry and many bands do so so they can "Make it" not truly realizing what it means. Their name will always rest in the credits but their ballad of teen angst could end up in a feminine hygiene commercial and they have no say over it. Thats part of why Paul McCartney tried so hard to get the rights to Beatles catalog when they were sold and was pissed at being outbid by Michael Jackson. I think he has since gained the catalog from Jackson but not sure about that.

Quote: "But what about bands with songs of the same name? Like band A has a song called "One Wish" and band B has a song called "One Wish", but the tab named "One Wish" doesnt sound like either, you're saying thats automatically illegal?"


Good question, I suppose (and I say this because I am unsure) that if there were a song listed with a common title the companies would have to then prove who's material was lifted, if none could be resonably compared I think they could get away with it. This would mean of course they could not list the artist in the Tab, as you notice Tab sites generally break things down by band and a tab is then in their sub directory. On the same note if they don't list a band users will have no real idea what song they are getting a Tab for and if it does not sound like any of them it might be neat to learn but won't help the player learn a song they may have been looking for. When it comes to playing covers as a band there are pretty much two options play it as close to the original as you can, or completely rearrange the song, people are not usually too thrilled with just a bad, innacurate cover. We used to do a few of each, I completely reworked Stepping Stone by the Monkees, She's Not There by the Zombies, and Werewolf in London by Warren Zevon, the music was all original (or at least changed quite a bit) but I think if we recorded them we still would have been at risk for copyright infringment.

All this said infringing on a copyright is one thing, but proving it is quite another, these things go to a jury and as OJ has shown Juries can be morons.


Quote: "the last album was total rubbish imo, and so will the newer stuff. I really liked a lot of older content they did, but they handled themselves badly with the p2p / online sales compartment of their business machine."


In my opinion the fact that their newer music has sucked (I think Master of Puppets was their peak) rests in two places 1) the Commercial success of "One" started them on a road of thinking about what song would make a cool video. 2) They lost their most talented songwriter Dave Mustaine, look at the first three albums and his name is on alot of the songs, Dave has an internal anger that really leant to what they were doing. Kirk may be a better guitarist, but he just does not have that agression that makes its way into a song. Of course I think bands need to grow and progress in their art, but Metallica I think, was looking to make songs that sell.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-17 10:52:25
Your offset time is: 2024-11-17 10:52:25