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Geek Culture / XBox 360 - Hobbiest, Indie and Student development.

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 12:03
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http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=10458

Gamasutra article on Microsoft providing tools to Windows users to cross platform develop for XP and XBox360. Really. Who'd have thunk, eh?

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hexGEAR
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 12:16
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Sounds good, my only gripe is with the $99 subscription fee but that's justified; they 'are' in the business to make a profit!

Nice to hear that XNA will be free for XP users, i guess if your game is good enough then you might make a lot more than the $99 via sales on XBLA.

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John Y
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 14:07
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Looks pretty cool, you can also read about it at http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/08/14/ms_opens_xbox360_games_devt/

Get the new DarkBasic Professional IDE free until October!
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Dazzag
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 15:17 Edited at: 14th Aug 2006 15:18
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Quote: "my only gripe is with the $99 subscription fee but that's justified"
A year. Still not too bad. Wonder how it works for a "software house". I mean lets say everyone on this forum "says" they are a software house, buys one $99 subscription, then compiles and distributes online all our games we made for free with the express version? If it eventually could make money through Live then that would be tops.

Damn it. Originally was PS3 no doubt, then was Wii no worries ("I'm cheap!", or "I'm peppy!", or whatever else that hot Wii says in the video ), and now the 360 looks pretty good. Nothing else for it but to buy the lot I suppose. Again.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 16:34
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Quote: "If it eventually could make money through Live then that would be tops."


Only the very best of the best will ever make it for *consideration* here, let alone onto the Live service. Even so this is an interesting move. If it wasn't a purely C++ solution I think this could worry us significantly, but it's quite far removed from what we do at the moment.

"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender, Futurama
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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 17:10
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I don't suppose that porting DarkGDK to it would be at all possible in the future? It'd be a very nice feather in DB's hat. Realising of course I have absolutely no idea what'd be involved in such a thing.
(I just noticed they used the "T" word - admittedly in a 2d form.)

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VR2
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 18:21 Edited at: 14th Aug 2006 18:23
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Quote: "If it wasn't a purely C++ solution I think this could worry us significantly, but it's quite far removed from what we do at the moment."


Actually I think that statement is quite, quite wrong. From what I'm reading, XNA is to be built around managed code.
That means VB.NET or at least C#.

That means writing your PC *AND* XBOX 360 game in VB....for free.

This is from Tom Miller's blog (the guy who basically wrote Managed DirectX)

Quote: "So anyways, like I mentioned last week, I've moved over to the XBox team and the Xna team specifically. If you're @ GDC this week, you might have the chance to see some of the demos we have written entirely in managed code running on both Windows as well as the XBox 360. People have been asking me for what seems like forever if there would be managed support for the Xbox, and I guess we've finally answered that.

Of course, i've also had people tell me numerous times over the last 3 to 4 years that it is essentially impossible to write a game in managed code. I have no idea why people think that, but obviously we disagree, and our demo's are starting to show that (even considering the early nature of the work we've done).

So what about MDX2 though? As I'm sure you're now aware (since you *did* go read Al's post), what is now called Managed DirectX 2 will be folded into the Xna Framework. The assembly itself will still ship (in non-release 'beta' form) until we are ready to ship a pre-release version of the Xna Framework, but in it's current form, it will never be officially "released."

We're working feverishly to get a preview of the Xna Framework out as soon as possible, and I'm quite excited about the work we're doing, and the excitement people will have when they see it. It's also quite refreshing to have an entire team supporting in these efforts.

I look forward to talking more about some of the exciting things we're doing in the (hopefully not too distant) future.

"
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 18:52
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Quote: "Actually I think that statement is quite, quite wrong. From what I'm reading, XNA is to be built around managed code.
That means VB.NET or at least C#."


Upon further reading at present it is C# only it would appear. All the sample games are written in C# that come with it and no other language appears to be supported in the fall release version.

Quote: "That means writing your PC *AND* XBOX 360 game in VB....for free."


Not yet. Also remember you cannot compile 360 *binaries* without subscribing to their $99 a year account, you can only send around 360 source code in the truly free version. They hope to address this in the future, but not until they've seen what kind of response they get (from subscribers). Check out the MS XNA blog for the low-down.

I see this as being an interesting way of messing around with coding for a 360, and XNA itself as a concept is very cool for pro developers. But with the current release this will offer no direct competition to DB, it's simply too far up the programming echelon for now.

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VR2
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 19:03
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Quote: "with the current release this will offer no direct competition to DB"


Not direct competition, but the move to Managed DirectX (which grew out of the ActiveX control to allow access to DirectX From VB6) was a step towards the bedroom coder from the previous C/C++ route only.

Its now almost as easy to create a "spinning cube" example in C# or VB using Managed DX than it is in DarkBASIC. Almost.

Now, they are ramping this up with the new version of MDX being swallowed up into XNA. Managed DirectX has gone from a pet project to centre stage in Microsoft's effort to get people developing for windows and 360.

This would mean you can download C# Express for free, XNA Express for free, and have an industry standard IDE & Game framework behind you. From an "easy" managed lanuage. For free.

But you are correct, Managed DirectX (1 or 2 I'd wager) and DarkBASIC are two different animals, one is a Game Engine, and one is just the means to build a game engine.

It would have been interesting though if 360 came with the PhysX chip on board as standard, and if they'd decided to throw in a managed wrapper to the API for it.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 19:12 Edited at: 14th Aug 2006 19:14
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Quote: "Its now almost as easy to create a "spinning cube" example in C# or VB using Managed DX than it is in DarkBASIC. Almost."


Yes, almost. But C# is not 'easy' to a lot of people (to be honest, nor would using VB to write a game be 'easy'). They will have to do a lot of work on the ground level to address this, but I do feel that isn't of much interest to them. The IDE will of course be a massive advantage, but the complexity of it all still remains to be seen. If it's anything like previous SDK releases this is no 'install and go' solution. More like 'install part 1, part 2, part 3, compile and run a few examples, but have to read masses before you can actually do anything unique'. August 30th will show though! (also I'm wondering about the system requirements for this.. i.e. what .NET stuff you'll need to start with, let alone need on the target gamers machine if you want to distribute your title)

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VR2
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 19:47
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No, not "easy" as in "your granny could do it in 5 minutes" but, well, there is alot of talent on this board, lots of bright young things who have the time and enthusiasm to devote to making games in their spare time. And hurrah for that!

But with that as a given, C# and VB.NET and MDX (or the new XNA) do become quite "easy". Especially when you consider the native C/C++ route to all of this!

But I'm not disagreeing with you, I too believe that DarkBASIC remains in a different market to this. As I said, one is a game engine and one is just the means to create one.

I'm simply saying that XNA is not C++ only, in fact it seems quite the opposite, and (will) come with (free) industry standard tools and documentation.

And then there is this 360 carrot they have.

And, well, although not direct competition, it would encroach a little, wouldn't it? If just one Indi coder decided to use XNA to build his/her game instead of DarkBASIC Pro, then that is a lost sale, thanks to Mr Gates. Or perhaps they come running back when they discover that a spinning cube is about all they can do without writing their own collision routines? lol!

Microsoft seem to do this alot, they give away free software and run rough-shod over, or at least tread on the toes of, other established, often open source but sometimes commercial, offerings.

Not that I'm saying your toes are flattened! Just, maybe stubbed a little bit?
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John Y
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 20:52
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Excelent, C# is getting the limelight it deserves

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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 21:08 Edited at: 14th Aug 2006 21:11
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Alright, I'm paying-- $99 a year is *very* worth it.

They said in the future they will open it up to allow the games to run on all 360s instead of just the elite ones who are in the "club". Totally cool!

Edit:

Hehehe I just read this in the FAQ

Quote: "
Q: What does XNA stand for?
A: XNA’s Not Acronymed
"



"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 22:01
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Quote: "Not that I'm saying your toes are flattened! Just, maybe stubbed a little bit?"


Not until it is out (and it remains to be seen just how simple it really will be for true beginners) I don't see it hurting because it's nothing really new, or different. If someone is capable of coding a game in C# there are options open to them already, and have been for some time now.

I think the 'compile for 360' is a geek novelty imho. Unless you are a serious PRO indie developer there is no commercial benefit here. If I wanted to code for a low-res, relatively slow PC with a moderately out-dated graphics card then I could do that any time

Now if we were talking free Wii dev, or even PS3 - that would be something truly exciting! But a 360 is just a medium spec PC in a better case that gets good frame rates and effects on screen thanks to the poor confines of TV (HD included). If you're not serious about making money from Live Arcade (and are therefore a professional developer already) it's really just the novelty factor that appeals, on a purely geek level. That's no bad thing at all, but it's not a mass market either. Does it interest me? Too right! Will the XNA Framework be free? Yes. So does that mean TGC could piggy-back onto this 360 access? Yup, if the market proves itself

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dab
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 22:02
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Cool Jeku, you'll have to tell us what it's like.
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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 22:18
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Quote: "Unless you are a serious PRO indie developer there is no commercial benefit here"


No *commercial* benefit, but how cool would it be to have your games available for your friends to download on their 360s? And this is eventually what it will be like, according to the MS site.


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
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ionstream
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 22:19
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$99 a year is not bad at all. I would definately get this if I had an Xbox 360, but alas, it's just too much money for me to dump on one thing. Now, if the Wii is gonna have something like this, that's a whole different story. Maybe Nintendo will react to this move by microsoft in a way that will benifit people like us?

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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 22:32 Edited at: 14th Aug 2006 22:33
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I can tell you with absolute certainty that if you're already used to Direct3D, the 360 will be easier to develop on than the Wii and PS3. Judging from past gripes, the NGC and PS2 were worse than hell hehe.

And I think it's worth it to pay the $99 a year just to be able to download and play everyone else's games.


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 14th Aug 2006 22:33
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Quote: "No *commercial* benefit, but how cool would it be to have your games available for your friends to download on their 360s? And this is eventually what it will be like, according to the MS site."


That's a big 'eventually' For now both you AND your friends all have to have the XNA Framework installed, XNA Express installed, and you have to send them the raw source and media for them to compile, before they can actually see anything you've done. They all also need to be members of the $99/year club. Oh and you can't use any networking commands.

Or you could pay MS $1000 for a pro license

What they need is for you to code, burn to a DVD, and be able to go around your mates house and run it. Nothing more complicated than that. Until that is how it works, for the average geek obsessed coder like most of us are, this is all more a novelty factor than anything else imho. A damned cool novelty factor, but still just that.

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Jeku
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Posted: 15th Aug 2006 02:08
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Yah you're right Rich, that's a very big "eventually"

Another cool thing about it is, what better way to show off your stuff to MS? I understand that it is next to impossible for indie's to get their games on Live Arcade, but if you have something amazing and groundbreaking, MS will most likely see it when it becomes popular on this service and then... who knows?

Just excited to see something I made on my big TV hehe...


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
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Medieval Coder
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 00:37
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Quote: "Just excited to see something I made on my big TV hehe..."


You could always get an adpater....but its not the same...

Quote: "Microsoft would regulate the content for appropriateness and intellectual property issues, but users would own their work, he said.

"I'd love to send a royalty cheque to a kid," he added. "


Now that is cool...

Quote: "Microsoft said more than 10 US universities, including the University of Southern California and Southern Methodist University, will include XNA Game Studio Express and Xbox 360 development in their curriculum."


Who knows, im open for learning another programming language!

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Aug 2006 01:39
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Here Garagegames (Torque) have taken advantage of this new 'thing' and are creating versions of there, 3D, 2D and shader engines, which if an indie is capable of making something cool and can afford to beat the costs it opens up more capabilities, as a Torque user/DBP backstabber its seems like something cool for me, except I'm a poor student who doesn't own a 360 and probaly never will. But still it leaves something for, as Rich said, geeks to amuse themselves with, I mean you get to play your own games sitting at the comfort of a sofa rather than close up to the monitor

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The admiral
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 09:03
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It would be cool if tgc could make a special product to integrate xna into a basic style language.

The admiral
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Manticore Night
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 09:48
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I didn't really read all of the thread, but I wish nintedo would do this. It would be sweet programming to use that wand.

[center]It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)

He's back! With 20% less intelligence!
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Medieval Coder
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 14:59
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Quote: "It would be cool if tgc could make a special product to integrate xna into a basic style language."


But then you would have Torque users, Blitz 3d users begging for that program..... It would be sweet! ^_^
However I would rather have updates to Dark Physics or the node based shaders maker...

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Kentaree
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 18:36
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All I'm hoping is for Rich to make a new XNA board when it comes out, so all the newbies trying to make games come moaning about how they're running out of memory and the likes

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 18:46
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Quote: "But then you would have Torque users, Blitz 3d users begging for that program"


Not Torque, they've taken that initiative.

http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque/x/

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Medieval Coder
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 19:04 Edited at: 22nd Aug 2006 19:05
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TGC just got left in the dust...

Mabye TGC should make their own...cause im pretty tempted right now...

Edit: It doesnt say the price...so it could be very very pricy...

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 19:57
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Are you referring to Torque X? The price isn't up, because it hasn't been released, plus you'd probaly have to buy either TGE, TGD or TSE first.

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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 21:00
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I was looking at Torque X the other day too--- I hope it's free for those who have TGE--- but that's me in dream land.


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 21:40
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Quote: "I hope it's free for those who have TGE--- but that's me in dream land"


lol ditto, as long as I get a free DVD burner and XBox 360 But I think they're putting a price on this.

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Medieval Coder
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 21:43
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Quote: ""Wait a minute, is GarageGames switching over to the XNA platform and managed code entirely?" Nope. We are still working actively on TGB, TGE, and TSE. Torque X is just a very exciting new addition to our efforts. Microsoft is taking a revolutionary step forward in opening up the Xbox 360 for just about anyone to create games on. We couldn't pass up the chance to help out."


From the sounds of that it will be seperate....

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2006 01:46
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From the sounds of things, it will be for TGB, TGE and TSE, so it would be a seperate addon I'd assume to each of those.

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