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Geek Culture / Free online poker games... what's the catch?

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 04:36
I've recently been playing free online poker at Bodog.com. Every day they have a tournament where it's free to enter, you play with fake money, and you can win *real* money, up to $1,000. What's the catch? How are they making money off of people with this? Or is it just some kind of marketing scheme? Also, does anyone play *FREE* poker online? I'm not big on internet gambling, but poker is fun and if I can play it for free online, cool What sites are good and which ones can I trust?


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Saikoro
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 04:39
Ads for one, and they make it easier for you to win while playing with free money than with real money. Casinos can afford to lavish individuals who win, they make sooo so so much off of everyone else.


Les Horribres
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 04:40
Quote: "Your address information must match your personal banking or credit card information if you wish to use online deposit methods."


Perhaps they have paid services?

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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 04:55
Quote: " and they make it easier for you to win while playing with free money than with real money. "


Seeing that you play vs other players that is pretty much impossible.

Matt I play on ParadisePoker, I won a spot in the million dollar free roll by placing 3rd in and earlier tournament, unfortuneatley I placed 37th (out of just over 4k) and it was a winner take all. They do have ads, and I am betting they sell email addresses as well. I have never needed to use a credit card but I am betting alot of them will be offering pay to enter tournaments if they don't already. Just probably trying to build a player base.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
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Saikoro
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 04:58
Quote: "Seeing that you play vs other players that is pretty much impossible."

You're playing on a computer using their algorithms. Anything is possible.


Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 05:00
But that's just it, Bodog doesn't have ads, and the tournaments are free... it seems suspicious to me. How could they be making so much money on the side that they could afford to give out $1k every day, plus $250 every night at 4am and other daily contests as well? People in one of their poker rooms have told me that they've won money, so I know they're actually giving it out... but I dunno, something isn't right about this.


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Les Horribres
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 05:01 Edited at: 17th Aug 2006 05:03
you mean that they cheat you out of your money based on what you pay. Well, wouldn't put it passed them, I remember a case about a couple who got the jakpot to show up on 'the one armed bandit' yet the casino refused to payout because 'the internal chip was malfunctioning'

Matt, they DO have a 'online deposit' thingy, and that works for income. (Deposit IS when you give them money right?). Just read the account signup form.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 05:10
yeah, but when you get online and look at the pay-to-play rooms, people are betting $1 here, $3 there, and going "all in" costs $5 lol. I haven't seen any high-roller rooms on there yet. Are they nickel & diming their way to glory?


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Zerk
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 05:26
I've done this before only with online slots. They give you money to play and the odds are always against you. If you play, you'll win some and you'll lose some but they chances are you will loose it all and spend some real money to play more.

When you win, you go "Woo hoo!" and by human nature, you'll up the ante from greed and loose it all just as fast.

They bank on this.

I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do. ~Hal-9000
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 05:39
There's a good chance you do have to go through some sort of sh*ty ordeal to get that money you "won". I'd suspect it has something to do with earning the casino money.
Les Horribres
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 06:02
Matt, in production, a 10 cent cost reduction can mean millions in savings. If they have a large enough clientele then they can make a large amount of money off of it. Although, how does the house win in poker?

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 06:05
Your the catch, don't you know? That get you playing and then soon you want to gamble!
indi
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 06:38
bye bye wallet

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 07:44
You probably win house chips in a free tournament. Free games are usually easier than real games. They pad the games with awesome and impossible hands.

Once you've started paying for games in the hopes of actually hitting it big, then anything is possible. They could even go so far as to have a company player that is able to see your hand, spank you properly, and advertise this "Big Winner" to everyone, to proliferate the fantasy.

If you want to play poker for money, play with real people. The only advantage that the computer gives is to teach you the odds with particular hands and pots. It's a great way to learn quickly, so long as you aren't paying.


Come see the WIP!
Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 15:05
Quote: "You probably win house chips in a free tournament. Free games are usually easier than real games. They pad the games with awesome and impossible hands."


Have to say I am yet to see that, 2 pair is almost always boss, see the occasional flush or straight, once in a great blue moon a full house, never seen 4 of a kind or a straight flush. I have played on Party Poker, Poker Stars and Paradise poker and on none of them have I ever seen unusual hands. Though when people play in the free rooms since they are imaginary chips alot of people stay in when if playing in a tournament they would fold so you do see more flops.

As for the house chips thing it depends, occasionally some free tournaments have a cash prize, but more often winning a free tournament gets you a seat in a pay-to-play one and you do not have to pay the entry fee. In that tournament you can win cash.

Quote: "Although, how does the house win in poker?"


In a casino at a walk up table there is a Rip for the house, it could be five dollars, 10 dollars, whatever as the stakes go up. this is paid to the house from the pot each hand. In tournaments it is usually a 5% cut that goes to the house so if they collect $1,000 in entry fees prizes of $950 are paid out.

Quote: "yeah, but when you get online and look at the pay-to-play rooms, people are betting $1 here, $3 there, and going "all in" costs $5 lol. I haven't seen any high-roller rooms on there yet. Are they nickel & diming their way to glory?"


What the bets are has nothing to do with what the entry fee is. If it is a $5 entry they don't give you $5 in chips generally. These could be $25 entry tournaments and each player is given $100 in chips, most tournaments have a rebuy option also where you can buy more chips x number of times at double the cost of the initial entry. and if the house takes 10 dollars say from each of the hundreds of tournaments they run each day paying out $1000 is no big deal.

I play at Foxwoods from time to time and have met a couple guys who make their "living" off poker especially online, major names in the poker world lend their name to alot of these sites and the potential loss to them if the sites were cheating is huge. The percentages they take from the entry fees is more than enough. You also have to remember these poker sites are tournament sites not gambling sites, unlike a casino you can't win their money, unless no one plays they can't even loose money.

And even if you do not see banners Matt they are advertising something, POKER. It has become a big ratings industry and TV broadcast= money to the casino/tournament = bigger prizes = more players = more viewrs (the circle continues). You may notice on occasion there are tournaments for WTP seats (heck those are worth 10,000, just more advertising you may not have noticed.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
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Dazzag
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Posted: 17th Aug 2006 16:20 Edited at: 17th Aug 2006 16:21
Yeah, it's a way to draw you in. So you start off trying to beat the free games that come along now and again, and get good enough to believe you can perhaps get some money, but have to wait to the next free game, so you go to a paying game.

Friend of mine went unemployed and just played online games for a while. One was just a simple "will it be heads or tails" game. No problems, and he used the technique of doubling his bet each time to cover his losses. Worked great for a week and he made about £500. For a while there he thought he could get by without working. Then he got 12 wrong in a row and lost all he had made and a bit more.

At the end of the day these sites exist for a reason; they make a f**k of a lot of money off people who believe they can win. I heard one site had become twice as rich as BA in like a couple of years. We are talking about billions of pounds here. And it's not because people are getting rich from playing free games.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Aug 2006 00:22 Edited at: 18th Aug 2006 00:24
Quote: "I've done this before only with online slots. They give you money to play and the odds are always against you. If you play, you'll win some and you'll lose some but they chances are you will loose it all and spend some real money to play more.

When you win, you go "Woo hoo!" and by human nature, you'll up the ante from greed and loose it all just as fast.

They bank on this.
"

So... like a real casino lol. I play in Atlantic City and up at Turning Stone, a Native American Reservation casino up near Syracuse NY. I usually stick to the roulette tables because the payouts, when you hit, are phenomenal ($35 to every $1 chip you have on a number). But that's WHEN YOU HIT, which isn't often enough, and the house banks huge on roulette. A tip for anyone who wanders into a casino and sits down at the roulette table: Ignore Wesley Snipes' "always bet on black" rule. Playing "outside" is a waste of time and money, the odds are bigger, but the payout is lousy... 2-1 or 3-1 at best. Play inside, where it's 35-to-1, and stick to three or four numbers every round. I play 22, 29, and 33 religiously, and I never deviate from those three numbers. On a $10 table (where the minimum is $10), I put 3 chips on 22, 3 chips on 33, and 4 chips on 29. If 22 or 33 hit, I make $105. If 29 hits, I get $140. Sometimes I leave with nothing, but just as often I leave with $400-$800 more than I came in with, and on a few rare occasions I've made over a grand (my biggest hit was 400 over two large... pretty awesome day for my music equipment at the time).

I've also heard of famous poker players playing online. Scotty Nguyen famously visits Bodog.com a lot, although I've never run into him, and Chris Moneymaker (that's his real name ironically; he was the 2003 poker world champion) famously plays at Poker Stars. But I had assumed this was just marketing: "Chris Moneymaker plays here, so should you!"

Here's a tip for anyone who plays poker, for fun or for money... not that I should need to tell you guys this, you're programmers and statistics breed in your veins hehe. Anyway, NEVER, EVER go all-in before the flop. On the deal you could end up with pocket aces, and you could think everything is going your way. Your opponent could have a duece and a five, offsuit. On the flop, a pair of fives and one other card could come down. The turn? Not an ace. The river? Not an ace. Presto, you just went all in on a pair and it was easily taken down by your opponent's lowly five card I try to explain this to my hardcore poker f(r)iends and they say "dude, no way, you go all in on a pair of aces or a king/ ace split of suit and you'll win a lot." Like somehow those cards are more likely to show up or something, lol.


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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Aug 2006 00:32
The problem with free tables is there's no harm is just going all in every time you play, so you don't get the kinds of serious people at the casino or on paid online tables.

Next week the Xbox360 Texas Hold 'Em is available on Live Arcade, and they will have a virtual banknote to stop people from doing this. Will be interesting to see how it fares.


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Aug 2006 00:50
That always stinks. Some idiot always comes in to the free rooms on bodog and goes all-in on every hand... and why? So he can take $12 in ante money? It's silly lol.

This is funny: Some guy from bodog.com just called me a few seconds after I posted that last post and invited me to join some special tournament for beginners, and said that if I win the tournament I can win a match play on my first bodog account deposit. A match play, for those of you who don't go to casinos all the time, is where the casino (in this case, website) matches your first chip buy-in... so if you buy $50 in chips, they'll give you $50 in chips for free. I had a feeling that would happen lol.

Here's another tip for anyone who goes to casinos, or will go to casinos when they turn 21. And heed this knowledge: Get a casino comp card and use it every single time you play. Casinos give away millions of dollars a year in comp stuff. Depending on how much you play, you can get free food, free rooms, free match plays, even access to clubs and whatnot. And no, it doesn't cost you hundreds of dollars to get comps... I often get a free buffet coupon after $20-$40 of play, regardless of whether I win or lose. And if you DO play hundreds, you'll get into special clubs where the benefits are neverending. My mom gambles in Atlantic City all of the time, at Taj Mahal. She plays nickel slots... 5-90 cents per pull. After playing on her comp card for a while, she has gained access to "The Maharajah's Club (sp?)." As a member of this awesome club, she can eat FOR FREE in her choice of three different restaurants in the Taj Mahal, restaurants that are totally exclusive to club members. You're not allowed to leave a tip in these places, and if you do, they'll chase you down and give your tip back to you. And the meals are extraordinary... she can bring guests and they usually serve meals that you'd expect to see at a White House slumber party... lamb, lobster, the works. She gets free hotel suites as well, which cost most people $3000 a night to stay in... a whole three days, absolutely free, and all from playing on nickel slots. And if she needs a second room for her entourage of family members, it's at a 70% discount, and 90% in the "off-season" (winter). Taj Mahal pwns all From what I've heard from others who have comps at other casinos in AC, none of them come remotely close. The only other casino in the world that I've heard of with comps that cool is the Bellagio in Las Vegas. But every casino I've ever been to has comp cards, and it's always a smart bet to comp your play. I haven't paid for a meal in a casino in very long time


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 18th Aug 2006 00:54 Edited at: 18th Aug 2006 00:57
Quote: "Here's a tip for anyone who plays poker, for fun or for money... not that I should need to tell you guys this, you're programmers and statistics breed in your veins hehe. Anyway, NEVER, EVER go all-in before the flop. On the deal you could end up with pocket aces, and you could think everything is going your way. Your opponent could have a duece and a five, offsuit. On the flop, a pair of fives and one other card could come down. The turn? Not an ace. The river? Not an ace. Presto, you just went all in on a pair and it was easily taken down by your opponent's lowly five card I try to explain this to my hardcore poker f(r)iends and they say "dude, no way, you go all in on a pair of aces or a king/ ace split of suit and you'll win a lot." Like somehow those cards are more likely to show up or something, lol."


Matt, Hell yeah you go in with a pair of aces. If you are playing for money your best chance of winning is before the flop, no player in theri right mind would call with 2-5. No those cards have no better chance of appearing, in fact if you have pocket aces another ace is less likely to pop compared to single card played. Your opponent however in the case of a 2-5 would need to pull 2 cards to overtake you, if you pull just one he needs 3, all things being equal (that is truly random) a pair of pocket aces should beat any other pocket pair close to 64% of the time and should beat suited cards 71% of the time and unsuited non matching 84% of the time. Waiting for the flop gives a player in a weak position the chance to possibly make a hand. If you watch the pro's they will fold 2 unsuited face cards when faced with an all in a very high percentage of the time. In hold-em you win or lose the game before the flop. The exception to this is when you are playing with fun money or people who do not have a clue and bet randomly, then you hold back.

Quote: "Get a casino comp card and use it every single time you play."

If you want to earn alot of comps Table games are great and alot of them you can play to "Draw" no win/loss but still rack up the comps.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Aug 2006 01:00 Edited at: 18th Aug 2006 01:07
I think it depends on how much money I have. If I can afford to call someone's all in pre-flop and it won't break my bank, I'll call them on it in the chance that I could overtake their pair (or they're bluffing, hehe). I almost always fold on the turn or the river, if I fold at all. But again, it depends on how much money is on the line, lol.

Edit: It just occured to me that some people might be reading our conversation and saying "flop? River? wth?" So here's a quick rundown of how hold 'em poker works for those of you who don't know:

1. Each player is given two cards. You can then ante or place a bet. If you bet, other players must call your bet, but they can raise your bet as well, in which case you must call their bet. You can also fold if you don't like your dealt hand, and you'll only lose your ante. The ante is the "buy in" to play the hand
2. "The Flop" occurs, wherein three cards are laid out. These are "community cards," EI, everyone at the table is using the same three cards. In other words, let's say 5, king, and ace are laid out. If you have a 5 and your opponent has a 5, you both have a pair of 5's. After the flop, another round of betting/ raising/ folding occurs
3. "The Turn" occurs, wherein a fourth card is laid down. This is also called "4th street." Another round of betting/ raising/ folding occurs. This also is a community card.
4. "The River", or "5th street," is a fifth community card. Another round of betting/ raising/ folding occurs after the river card is laid down. After that, the winner is the person with the strongest hand.


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 18th Aug 2006 02:16 Edited at: 18th Aug 2006 02:20
Quote: "1. Each player is given two cards. You can then ante or place a bet. If you bet, other players must call your bet, but they can raise your bet as well, in which case you must call their bet. You can also fold if you don't like your dealt hand, and you'll only lose your ante. The ante is the "buy in" to play the hand"


You must Ante, if there is one. There is a difference between an ante and the Big and Small blind. all players ante, the blinds circulate according to the deal (a blind is a forced bet and you are automatically in the pot at the start of the hand though you can later fold.)


Quote: "I think it depends on how much money I have. If I can afford to call someone's all in pre-flop and it won't break my bank, I'll call them on it in the chance that I could overtake their pair (or they're bluffing, hehe). I almost always fold on the turn or the river, if I fold at all. But again, it depends on how much money is on the line, lol."


If you are way way ahead and you are trying to eliminate a player who is down to 5% of the chips in play this can work, but you should still have a semi decent hand (one rated at 35 or better). otherwise more often than not you will be making a hasty departure from a tournament or find yourself on tilt.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Aug 2006 05:30
I dunno, in play money I call every pre-flop bet and I'm $92,000 richer... but in play money, hehe.

I had a SUPER awesome idea... is there any way to send a webcam signal to a DBP program?


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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Aug 2006 06:29
Of course, why not? Anything is possible through DLLs.


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Aug 2006 15:14
Hmm... so, what if you could make an online poker game where each player can actually see the other players via webcams? You could have cam and non-cam rooms. One advantage that people have over the net is that they can't see each other's "poker faces," IE, you can't use natural instincts in their fullest capacity while playing online. This could change that


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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Aug 2006 23:00
They're aready going to do that with the 360 hold 'em game if you get the cam.


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
Matt Rock
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Posted: 19th Aug 2006 05:01
yeah, but I'm thinking of doing that with real money, hehe. And on the PC... there's way more PC's out there


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Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 19th Aug 2006 17:21
Sure add in the Cams and the Pron sites will pop up where you pay xxx dollars to get in and can play Mindy the dumb Blonde who puts it all in on a 2-7 offsuit.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Aug 2006 09:26
lol didn't think about that happening, good call


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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Aug 2006 10:10
Serious cam poker won't take off--- i.e. to tell if someone's bluffing--- all you have to do is hide your face or put on one of those crazy filters--- then nobody can read it. It's really a niche.


"I understand creative people. After all, I worked with towel designers." - Ray Kassar, former head of Atari
Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 01:13
It would be fun to play with friends online though... unfortunately you guys are right, it would never take off.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 03:17
the catch is, when you play a free pokey game, they take your soul, if you have no soul, jokes on them

Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 06:28
How are they taking your soul? It's only poker lol.


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