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FPSC Classic Work In Progress / New Shaders in FPSC? Look here

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Nighthawk
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Posted: 21st Aug 2006 14:53
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Short Version: I got some new shaders to work

Long Version: I tested some shaders with FPSC i found in the internet. Some worked, most shaders didn't. I modified a few of them and - they worked.

Screenshots of some working Shaders: (Fur, HDR1, HDR2, Gloss)



(The Gloss Shader looks like he's not working, but he is. You can't see it very well in the picture.)

The Shaders

Finished and is working
Finished but some problems
Unfinished, working on
Possible
Won't work

Fur
Gloss
HDR1 & HDR2 *
Cartoon **

Parallaxmapping
Ocean / Water (yes, REAL REFLECTING AND REFRACTING WATER!!!)
Hologram **
Bloom
NormalMapping

Thermal **
Per-Pixel-Lightning
Metallic **
Blur **

* Lightning does not work correctly (Screenshot)
** Additional Maps needed, aren't avialable

---

Some of the Shaders (like the Metallic or the Thermal Shader) need additional Maps. The Problem getting them to work is, couldn't find

anything about "Metallic-Maps" or "Heat-Maps". If anyone can help me, just do it.

Nighthawk

--- This is not the best English, i'm from Germany
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brummel
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Posted: 21st Aug 2006 18:02
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Normalmapping is already available but this is really great news!

My site is now updated with info and a teaser about my game The Peacemakers. My blog is now ready and i have written my first contribution!

Check it out now!
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Nighthawk
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Posted: 21st Aug 2006 19:49
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i know, but the there are better Normalmapping Shaders avialable than the Shader of FPSC

--- This is not the best English, i'm from Germany
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Nighthawk
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2006 01:57
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Has anyone Knowlegde about "Heatmaps" ? (i need them to get the Thermal Shader to work)

For Info: If you use a Thermalshader it looks like the thermal image camera from Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory!

ah...

and what's about Holomaps for the Hologram Shader?

--- This is not the best English, i'm from Germany
My System: Dell Dimension 5000, Intel P4 530J 3,0 GHz, 1GB DDR2 RAM, Sapphire Radeon X1900GT, BenQ FP71E+, No Fans - Thermal-Module
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Zilla
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2006 11:28
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Hi, Nighthawk

I'm very interested in your Cartoon Shader!
Please keep us informed about your progress.

Greetings from your southern neighbour in Switzerland. Zilla
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Zilla
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2006 11:28
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What effect does "Gloss" actually have?
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Nighthawk
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2006 11:33
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What it says

it reflects the light, heavier than the "bumpcubereflectalpha" effect from FPSC, but i would use "Bump Gloss" as an effect, only gloss...that's not really exciting


As i said, i need help with the Maps, which some Shaders need

If anyone knows how to make Heatmaps.... just write it here

thx

--- This is not the best English, i'm from Germany
My System: Dell Dimension 5000, Intel P4 530J 3,0 GHz, 1GB DDR2 RAM, Sapphire Radeon X1900GT, BenQ FP71E+, No Fans - Thermal-Module
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Zizaco
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Posted: 24th Aug 2006 15:43
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Nighthawk do u have any e-mail for contact?
thanks

Sorry for my bad inglish!
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Nighthawk
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Posted: 25th Aug 2006 01:41
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you can look at our website, but it's german... (soon there will be als

here's my e-mail adress

helix [at] kevin-dargel.de

(remove the spaces and replace the [at] with an @)

--- This is not the best English, i'm from Germany
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Nighthawk
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Posted: 26th Aug 2006 16:54
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No one can help?

--- This is not the best English, i'm from Germany
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Benjamin A
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Posted: 27th Aug 2006 11:07
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Sorry can't help. There's a simple reason for most of us not using these features on FPSC..... it slows down the game way to much. so that's why most of us never seriously looked into them, not beyond the point of playing with the features.

http://www.gamefun4u.nl/index.html
GameFun4U, the ultimate funtainment. Cool Games and Resources for your own games.
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Nighthawk
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Posted: 27th Aug 2006 13:29
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it doesn't slow down the game, only if you've got a veeeeery slow computer

i made a map with every shader i'm working on and... framerate is still the same...31-32 FPS

it doesn't slow down the game because shaders (like Bumpmapping, Parallax Mapping, etc.) are processed by the graphics hardware.

If the framerate drops on your PC, your computer seems to be old

(like the Geforce 4 Ti, this graphic card doesn't support any shader effect except (bad) bumpmapping)

--- This is not the best English, i'm from Germany
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Disturbing 13
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Posted: 27th Aug 2006 19:22
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Nighthawk, what you fail to realize is FPSC is well cheap so generally most users are not on the most expensive up to date comps. So Shaders are not for the general public.

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Benjamin A
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Posted: 27th Aug 2006 20:05
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Disturbing 13 is correct and besides I don't have a veeeeery slow computer at all. Shaders do slow down the game, always, but you may not always notice it on the most up to date machine. But as D13 stated, most people do not own the latest state of art pc.

http://www.gamefun4u.nl/index.html
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Nighthawk
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Posted: 27th Aug 2006 20:48 Edited at: 27th Aug 2006 20:49
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everyone has got his own opinion

i tested the Shaders on my machine (look at my signature), on a friends system (Athlon 64 3500+, Rad. X1800GTO) and on a slow machine (Rad. 9600 SE)

no frame drop or just 2-3 frames on the systems

--- This is not the best English, i'm from Germany
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Skywalker
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Posted: 27th Aug 2006 21:00
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I have a good computer: Amd 4400+ dual core/ Gforce 7900Gs/ 2gb ddr.
and i would like to help get these shaders in fpsc but i just don't have time right now sorry. keep working at it

u would understand if u knew my name was Luke
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FredP
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Posted: 27th Aug 2006 22:34
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Some computers don't support shaders.That is a fact.
My pc is picky about the kind of shaders that work.
I have played a number of FPSC demos where half of everything was screwed up because if shaders.
There is enough to slow an FPSC game down already and while things such as shaders,dynamic lighting and stuff like that are cool options to have at this point you really have to be careful and pick and choose what you use in your game.
And you might at least take the opinions of these others into consideration since they are your future customers.

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Cheesy Good
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Posted: 28th Aug 2006 04:44
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Lol a furry box
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Dark Goblin
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2006 23:07
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Nighthawk!
Mou hvae said, on a Friends system! Thats me!

But i have an AMD 64 3800+!
I only want to say this!

And on my system the Framnerate is still by 25-30!

I'm from Germany so don't say something about my English! Otherwise i will be a bit angry!^^
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Benjamin A
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2006 00:13
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Nighthawk, those systems you refer to are not average systems at all. The average computer user doesn't have a Athlon 64 3500+ or system with over 512Mb laying around.

It's changing slowly, but it takes time. Having 512Mb or 1Gb makes a lot of difference with FPSC. Having a cpu over 3GHz or below makes a lot of difference. But suprisingly having a Radeon X1800GTO or Radeon 9600 doesn't make that much difference when it comes to speed.

But when it comes to shaders the Radeon 9600 doesn't deal to well with FPSC shaders at all and that's a fact also. It will support a few boxes perhaps, but once you get heavy into shaders, the 9600 will soon fail you.

Of course your test level ran fine on about any pc, it hardly contains anything. Do a full blown game with shaders on FPSC and your pc is soon to crumble and that's a fact also.

http://www.gamefun4u.nl/index.html
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Nighthawk
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2006 02:11
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Quote: "Mou hvae"


what's that???

ok ok i did't remember your CPU specifications... especially Quantispeed names...

--- This is not the best English, i'm from Germany
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Jon Fletcher
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2006 02:47 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2006 02:48
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by any chance did you get some of these from the free shader pack in the work in progress forum?

because what is listed are the exact contents


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uman
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2006 02:59
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Most users or FPSC game players cant afford to drop a couple of fps for the sake of using shaders either.

Every single extra fps is of vital importance to gameplay performance.

Shaders and all the other advanced effects - I love em - Lets have them all - but we need to get realistic and achieve an engine performance that can sustain them first.

Of course its every individuals right to make and play games with any included content they wish - personally I am all for advanced stuff if its necessary - I dont think shaders are necessary to make a good game at the expense of poor gameplay speeds.



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Disturbing 13
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2006 10:05
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Quote: "but we need to get realistic and achieve an engine performance that can sustain them first"


indeed it may play well on the creators comps, but it will limit your userbase if the engine doesn't perform as well on lesser systems. The question becomes- Do i want more or a lesser amount of people to play my game?

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transient
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2006 11:21
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There seems to be this persistant myth in indi gaming that a lowest-common-denominator approach is the best one for making money.

If someone is too cheap to upgrade their machine (where talking historically low prices for computers and parts at this point), then your going to have a tough time prying money out of their buttocks for other things as well.

The biggest selling games at the moment are ones like Oblivion, BF2 and Fear that have native DX9 support as a requirement.

Even TGC are moving to the cutting edge with their support for Ageai's products.

Personally, I think FPSC is crying out for a graphical facelift, and any improvement on the shaders and lighting would be welcome.

Perhaps the option to turn them off should be there, but on a modern card a good shader system shouldn't slow things down much (if at all).

Just my 2c.
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Disturbing 13
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2006 11:26
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Quote: "Perhaps the option to turn them off should be there"

that's a step in the right direction.

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Nighthawk
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2006 12:23
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Quote: "by any chance did you get some of these from the free shader pack in the work in progress forum?

because what is listed are the exact contents"


Free Shader Pack? Where? Give me a link

I was never out of the FPSC Forum, i was only sometimes in the DBP Forum to look up, whats going on there (i'm thinking of getting DBP)

No, i collected the shaders "over the internet", made a conversion to get them to work in FPSC and thats all - short form.
A good resource are Shaders from FX Composer and RenderMonkey... i'm a ATi Fan but i think FX Composer is better lol

--- This is not the best English, i'm from Germany
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Dark Eternity
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2006 13:16 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2006 16:53
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the default shaders in FPSC are pretty bad it is not to do with the system, try running a normal game without shaders then with and you get no performance loss, my old rig had no difference on shader enabled games so dont worry.

Scorched Skies is waiting,can you help

AMDAthlonFX-62,NvidiaGeforce7900 512MB X2,RAM4GB
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FredP
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2006 16:51
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Quote: "If someone is too cheap to upgrade their machine (where talking historically low prices for computers and parts at this point), then your going to have a tough time prying money out of their buttocks for other things as well."


I have a medium-end pc and I am not too cheap to upgrade I just haven't done it yet and I have spent well over $500 on FPSC,FPSC related products and stuff for FPSC (modeling programs,etc.).
Keep in mind that a lot of kids are FPSC forum members and when you are 12-14 years old going to your parents and saying you need to upgrade your pc might not get you your pc upgrade...especially if your parents don't know squat about computers.
This is a fact:If you want to make the most amount of money on a game you need to have the widest possible audience.Making a game that only works on a select number of computers is going to narrow your sales audience.
Also keep in mind that some computers support some shaders and other computers support others.
I am not using shaders in my game at this point because I want everyone to be able to play my game.

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Mr Flowerkohl
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2006 19:40
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so...get me the bloom shader ( glow ) and parallax mapping. reflecting water would also be nice

but...i dont think third party shaders could ever be used in fpsc. I tried this half a year ago on my own and the results where bad. fpsc uses especially - FOR FPSC - programmed .fx shaders. i think you have to get the fpsc source code and fit those shaders to the framework. maybe i am wrong

yeah...thats the ticket !
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Nighthawk
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2006 21:13
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Quote: "but...i dont think third party shaders could ever be used in fpsc"


you did't read this thread correctly?

most of the shaders ARE third party shaders, which were changed to work in FPSC

the FPSC Shaders are DirectX FX Shaders, not HLSL or something like this
some shaders are really easy to get to work in FPSC

--- This is not the best English, i'm from Germany
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DoOmEd MaRiNe
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2006 21:24
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Hmm i agree with fredp
most people don't own high-end PC's so they might
suffer a drop in Frame rate's.
my pc is pretty low-end 1.7 GHZ,GeForce 4 MX 440 isen't that good.
So i won't bother with shader's uhhh my PC would freeze right down.

Ollie

How can i feel if i can't breath.
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Jon Fletcher
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2006 21:55
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Quote: "Free Shader Pack? Where? Give me a link"


i clearly said "in the work in progress forum"

its right there, one of the stickies at the top, alot were programmed by users on these forums, so compatibility might be a bit better...somehow, keeping in mind that the shaders were programmed for DBPro...

you said bloom was finished but with some small problems, if it is visible, could you please post a screenshot, as that is one of my favourite shaders, an the first thing i tried to integrate as soon as i downloaded that pack


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uman
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Posted: 4th Sep 2006 02:27
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Personally I dont think one should build for anything but a professional game end product - whether an end user has the system that can play an end result completed game would not be my concern.

If there were less players for any game I made then so be it. But thats just a personal prefernce I must admit.

I did not want to suggest that shaders are not important in any way and I hope and trust anyone working with them will continue with their most valuable contributions to making games with FPSC.

I would just see it as a matter of priorities and would prefer to see TGC at least spend the time and effort working on what I would regard as somewhat more important issues first.

"I am and forever will be your friend"
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transient
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Posted: 4th Sep 2006 06:15
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Quote: "This is a fact:If you want to make the most amount of money on a game you need to have the widest possible audience.Making a game that only works on a select number of computers is going to narrow your sales audience."


This isn't a fact, it's an opinion, and one which I personally don't see much evidence for. If I was making a pong remake I'd be more inclined to agree (but even then probably not).

Peoples spending habits aren't this simplistic, as can be seen from the huge sales of eye-candy going on at the moment, despite the steep requirements for these games.

Better to have a large share of a narrow audience, than bugger all of a wide one. But I'll admit that that's just my opinion, not an absolute fact.

Howver, I do agree that FPSC does have other more urgent needs at the momentm, and I'm looking forward to seeing what TGC comes up with.
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Nighthawk
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Posted: 4th Sep 2006 15:34
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@ Jon Fletcher:

yes, but i meant a direct link

but that doesn't matter now

i've got 2 HDR Shaders (including bloom) but they don't work really correctly and a bloom shader... but i have to do some more tests

in the last week i got no time, school has begun and so i haven't got much time to work on the Modelpack or Shaders

--- This is not the best English, i'm from Germany
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