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Geek Culture / Can indie games still innovate?

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Redmotion
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 13:20
Well can they?

Can a group of say, 5 people compete with teams of 100s? Can they provide the world with anything else other than dodgy clones of existing games?

I think very few can.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 13:32
Not necessarily, but it really depends on the 5 people you're talking about, and how they choose to compete. Many people try to make dodgy clones of million dollar games, but that will never work. Indie teams have to be clever, innovative, and extraordinarily resourceful.


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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 13:40
Your honour, I present as exhibit A: Introversion Software.
The defence stands.

Van B
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 14:04
Media is the conearn, when some commercial games like oblivion have 9,000 collectable items, really that pushes guys like us into the sidelines.

That's why that mad Introversion game looks so retro, stylising is simply the only way to go when you don't have the means. Cartoon shading for instance is a great time saver, because you negate the need for time consuming texture drawing. Really most people would comfortably make 1 model per day - when you take away texturing constraints it's so much quicker to produce media.

Personally, I'm happy to play more stylised games - but I'm damn reluctant to spend £30 on a game that was made by 5 people - how much of a profit margin must that be!

Smaller teams should produce cheaper games, the cheapest games should be made by people on their own - that way these massive titles really have to justify themselves over smaller titles.

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 14:39
I really dont think anything matters other than the idea behind the game... As long as you've got a new and fun idea (and there are tonnes, dont say they're all used up) and are able to put a mockup of the game together and get someone like M$ interested then the game is well on its way to hitting it big.

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Redmotion
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 15:02
Quote: "Your honour, I present as exhibit A: Introversion Software.
The defence stands."


Erm... Introversion are one of the rare "exceptions to the rule" (will definitely pre-order DEFCON on steam - $9.95? - best value game ever made - if it's as good as it looks) - along with many games produced for the Independent games festival (although most seem to be $19.95) and the devs behind Portal. But most of the indie 'innovation' is 2D/or abstracted. Because, as Van B says - media.

RUCCUS you are right to a certain extent, but new gameplay/ideas take a lot of time to get right which is why most small devs stick to tried and tested ideas.

I think it's harder than anything to come up with a new idea that is small scale - it's very easy to come up with the next Half Life FPS or Oblivion-beating game idea!

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 17:06
I don't see why not. An indie team is smaller and because they aren't as driven by profit, they're far more likely to try something that's never been done before. Usually, that'll just end badly, but in some instances it'll end up churning out a simply amazing game, like Alien Hominid, which was made by a small indie studio and not a massive corporate entity. Software to make high-quality assets with minimal skill already exists (Poser, 3DWS, etc.), and soon, the increased simplicity of asset development will fuse with simplified programming platforms like DarkBASIC to create no-limit game design possibilities for potential budding indie teams.

I think infrastructure has a lot to do with it, also. Most indie teams lack a serious business model, and as such, they fizzle out of existence. We're too willing to give the pie away for free, and we don't understand multi-stage advertising (don't give the proverbial pie away in one shot... deliver it piece by piece so the audience gets addicted over time). Our community is willing to sit down with others and openly discuss gameplay mechanics and we reveal our code to each other constantly. The studios/ teams who treat even the smallest indie projects as though they were big-budget productions, without letting their dreams get in front of their business plans (ie, not setting unrealistic goals or trying to play out their "Icons" episode before they've sold a single unit) will find some success in the industry, as the Alien Hominid guys did.

Here's another thing: pessimism. It plows through our community like a school bus through a field of newborn puppies. Even in this thread... pessimism. More often than not, when someone has a super-keen idea, everyone is all too quick to say "that can't be done" and do everything they can to discourage someone from wanting to try, and more often than not, the person doing the discouraging is someone whose never seriously tried to do something on an equal scale... probably because they too were discouraged at some point. Until we can learn to avoid doing this to people, or until someone says "screw you guys, I'm doing this," we'll continue to see clones of Atari and Amiga games pinning down the indie market like a cop on a donut


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Fallout
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 17:17
Personally, I think indies have a huge advantage in streamlining. While media is a real problem for a small team, the main game programming is seriously streamlined. Now, I don't know this for a fact, but I'd be willing to bet that even at the centre of Oblivion there is a handful of people (perhaps even 1 person) responsible for the meat of the engine. I'm racing along on my current project because I'm doing everything myself, and I answer only to myself, and have to discuss ideas only with myself (I normally miss out that bit).

The only problem, as has been mentioned above, is media. The main components of a game can be put together by a handful of people as well as any million dollar company. So, if you can get a handful of talented artists onside, you can produce the media required to make those game components look good - not in the same volume, but to the same quality. If the package is kept small, it can be as good as AAA commercial titles, undoubtedly.

However, the title of your post was "Can indie games still innovate?". Personally, I think indie games are the only real games that innovate, and top commercial games are normally cliche and lacking innovation.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 15th Sep 2006 21:39
I don't think 5 indies could create the power of 100 industry pros, or at least within a similar time scale, but 5 indies could create something commercial and looks good, I myself am trying the job of several people, directing, modelling, animating, texturing, programming, composition, rendering CGI, 2D work and music...Its slow work I know,

But as an indie, making one generic character and edit it in places makes multiple characters and saves time, like the 'Torque/realm wars Orc' its one Orc edited a few times. Then using tools like Cinema 4D for rendering, as rendering with tricks etc is pretty much a quick process, as I found out other renderers have much more work in them like Mental Ray. Animation can be done quicker with some of the tools, if you are who I think you are then I don't need to mention XSI's 'GATOR'. Most jobs can be cut down to make awesome looking game, with the indie amounth.

Agent Dink
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 05:59 Edited at: 16th Sep 2006 06:00
I bet if I got 10 (good) indie guys together... Ones who are totally serious about the project, and would work full time like a real job. I don't totally doubt they could compete with a smaller commercial company (I'm talking like ID or something smaller, not EA who turns out 20 or so games a year) within the same timeframe or faster.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 08:12
There's no reason why 5-10 talented people couldn't make a game that competes with any major studio. Quantity, no, but quality? Why not. It all depends on how skilled the people are.


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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 10:11
Can you name a game that was made by 5-10 people that has competed with a major studio? In the last 10 years. Just wondering.

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 11:16
It's not possible to compete directly with big budget games. Indie developers have to compete on a different level. Puzzle games are a good way, because an individual or small team can make a great puzzle game that can make a bit of money.

Compare the Blair Witch Project with King Kong. Blair Witch was certainly entertaining in its own right, but on a completely different level than a movie like King Kong.


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dark coder
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 11:38
Wasn't the original far cry made by 3 people?

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Kaiyodo
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 12:05 Edited at: 16th Sep 2006 12:06
[EDIT!!] I AM NOT Kaiyodo! I'm just logged into his machine! (Bah). Tinkergirl here - if you can't tell from the writing style

The original poster asked if Indie developers could still 'innovate' - not sure how that changed into "Can Indie developers compete with the big boys on graphics etc?"

Generally* - no, indie devs will not be able to crank out the sheer amount of media to the appropriate quality that a proffessional dev team can. Hell, a lot of pro-dev teams can't crank it out any more, so they outsource some of the graphics!

*The word 'generally' is my get out clause.

However, I completely believe that indie teams can make bold and interesting innovations in gameplay, coding, sound, and even art style.

I've been playing Dwarven Fortress II recently - indie game, ASCII graphics, and hard as hell to start with without the wiki open - but it's new and interesting and jawdroppingly detailed. Indie team has innovated.

How about Slime Forest? Game that teaches you your Japanese kana - the graphics are seriously retro, there's not much music or plot to speak of - but the gameplay and the methods are very new and educational!

I'm sure a heck of a lot of the people on this forum can pull out the names of a couple of their favourite indie games that innovated in some way or other. Games that big name publishers wouldn't generally allow big name developers to go ahead with because of the risk.

It is sad that SO MANY indie developers put their efforts into remakes of previous games - it's a legally dodgy area to be in too. Where they have the freedom to make whatever they like, with no publisher-led restrictions, they choose to copy others.
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 12:14
I'm not really up on my MMORPGs, but I'm pretty sure one of the earlier ones, like Eve or something, was made by only 3 people. I'm sure later they expanded their ranks, but I definitely heard some MMORPG was put together by 3 people, all the way to getting it online.

I know I rave on about this but I also think Live For Speed is a great example of what indies can do. It's still my favourite game. There are upto 1000 racers online during peak times. Not sure if you can get a sales figure from that, but I'd guess at least 20 times that figure, so it's been pretty successful. It's been put together by only 3 people, one of which is a full time web programmer (it has a very complicated web system), meaning only 2 people made the actual game. It has the most advanced car physics of any simulation, and is the best racer I've ever played. And it doesn't look half bad either.


So indies can kick many asses, even with tiny teams. LFS is still only a beta aswell! When its finally finished, they'll probably get a publisher and fill their wallets with green goodness.


Agent Dink
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 15:37 Edited at: 16th Sep 2006 15:40
Quote: "Can you name a game that was made by 5-10 people that has competed with a major studio? In the last 10 years. Just wondering.

"


I have never said it has happened. But if 10 guys totally dedicated working like they were in a game dev company got together it could most definitely happen. And I think it could happen at a faster pace.

@Fallout... For an MMO, that is some sexy graphics.

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MiR
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 16:46
Quote: "Can you name a game that was made by 5-10 people that has competed with a major studio? In the last 10 years."

Wario Ware was put together by 5 people, mostly whilst working on another title. Also there´s that Alien Homsomething game that was quite successful. That game that came with Project Gotham Racing 3 was did well too. Though in terms of complexity those games don´t come close.

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jasonhtml
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 17:40
Quote: "Can you name a game that was made by 5-10 people that has competed with a major studio? In the last 10 years."


the first crash bandycoot game was made by 7 people. it was an article about how smaller gamemaking companies are becoming more common or something like that...


Thread: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=78971&b=8&p=0
*New Website Coming Soon*
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 18:18 Edited at: 16th Sep 2006 18:21
THat racing game looks awesome.

I agree with Van that the best way for indi to do media is with lots of style. Not an indi game, but look at lego star wars. Aside from pixel shader, it's a rediculously low requirement game. There are so few polygons in it, yet it looks great because legos look good and are very basic shapes. Sure, we'd have trouble matching that kind of content, but graphicaly, games like that are easily in indi reach. Another thing that indi game makers can do is slowly build up masses of complex code in all thier small games to be implimented into one massive game, and in a way overcomming the issues of time frames...

And isn't Mario Galaxy being made by like 7 to 15 people? I know there are like 70 of smash bros., but very little on galaxy. A teram of 7 or so people isn't too difficult for a serious team of indi developers to come up with.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 18:35 Edited at: 16th Sep 2006 18:36
Quote: "Can you name a game that was made by 5-10 people that has competed with a major studio? In the last 10 years. Just wondering."

Alien Hominid. It was a Flash game (indie), and the guys who made it said "hey, let's make this into a real game," and with a tiny team of about 10 people or so, they whipped together Alien Hominid. The catch, however, is that they had a major publisher... but the game wasn't deviated, no huge budget for development, just a bunch of programmers and some artists with Wacoms. Alien Hominid was indie until it hit distribution, and distribution was the only non-indie thing about it.

Wolfenstein 3D was, according to legend, made by a relatively small team in a short period of time (3 months or so). (edit: but that wasn't in the past 10 years, so I guess it doesn't count)

Battlefield 1942... small team until EA got it's hands on it. Dice was puny before EA "acquired" it. Same with Neversoft, Remedy, and DMA (which later became Rockstar). Never under-estimate a small team. These are all examples of tiny teams that produced high-quality commercial games and were indie until distribution came into it. Distribution is, in my opinion anyway, one of the few things separating indie studios from mainstream ones.

Point is, it CAN be done, and I'm certain it WILL be done. There is absolutely no reason why 5-10 talented people, devoted to their project and given the right tools, couldn't make an indie game into a massive hit. What's that pirate game that people are playing now that's sold something like 500,000 units? That was made by three people in a few months. And what about Second Life... that was made by an indie team too, although I don't know how many people they had. Anyway, once electronic distribution gets more popular, we'll start seeing small indie studios turning numbers that compete with big studios, so long as the product is good and the team is smart about how they handle marketing. To say it's impossible is nothing short of silly


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 18:45
I think that there is a huge difference between 7 indie developers trying to make a game and a dedicated team of 7 making a game. Once a team is dedicated, they are no longer indie developers. Rather, they have formed a small professional team.

Our real problem is that it's too hard for us to work together. We all have real life commitments, and it's impossible for us to dedicate ourselves to a group project professionally. Groups that can and have talent will certainly make a good game.

If a group of people here seriously joined together, people of exceptional talent and available time, something damned impressive could be done. Unfortunately this is next to impossible, so instead we are all trying to individually do the job.


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 19:02
The only reason we can't be dedicated is because we have jobs and other life commitments. People in the gaming industry do this as their job. So really if you quit your job, took a gamble and worked full time on game design you might pull something off.

Quote: "If a group of people here seriously joined together, people of exceptional talent and available time, something damned impressive could be done. Unfortunately this is next to impossible, so instead we are all trying to individually do the job."


I don't really see why that is impossible. Really the only hurdle is agreeing on the game concept. If we all decide to do something in a serious team based fashion GREAT things could come of it. If someone would work as an organizer and get a project started with some of the big names around here, we could easily make a game that is comparable in graphics, physics and game play to FlatOut, or something as fun and fast paced as Serious Sam. It would just take dedication.

I mean, look at what Fallout is doing with that overhead fighting game he's working on! That's awesome! Imagine how awesome it could be if we had 5 or 10 guys as dedicated as Fallout on 1 project. We'd make a dent in the Indie gaming world for sure.

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
Redmotion
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 19:02
Quote: "Alien Hominid. It was a Flash game (indie)"


Alien Hominid by The Behemoth is another good example - you can hear a really good interview with John Baez (one of the founders of The Behemoth) here at GDC radio - well worth a listen!

I think they define exactly what an indie studio is:-
"A group of "Bedroom" coders who start out with no funding - doing what they love. They chuck it out there and its gains momentum, turns heads. They get a publishing deal. And then they are able to work, full time, reasonably paid, on a new project with the same team."

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RalphY
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 22:02
http://www.projectoffset.com/ <-- proof indies can compete with the big boys.
Jeku
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Posted: 16th Sep 2006 22:07 Edited at: 16th Sep 2006 22:09
Quote: "Wario Ware was put together by 5 people, mostly whilst working on another title. Also there´s that Alien Homsomething game that was quite successful."


You can't name games that are niche and not competing. Wario Ware is not competing with any other game. Alien Hominid had poor sales compared to other big games.

Don't confuse "commercial" with "commercial success". 9 out of 10 games fail. So no, I haven't seen a game made by a small number of people COMPETE with the big boys. Geometry Wars is the closest I've seen in years, but it's nothing compared to the other big 360 games.

EDIT:

I don't own Alien Hominid, but I will bet you good money that there are more than 10 people in the credits.

Hell, Geometry Wars has dozens of people in the credits---

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Sep 2006 00:15
I would say the original Prince of Persia, but thats more than 10 years ago, so no idea of any successful minimal team winners. I remember that Equilibrium game was being developed in DBP, that looked awesome, they ditched it to work on others, then their site died. (Yes I was around here before even joining the foruns ) Wonder whatever happened to them.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Sep 2006 04:47
Quote: "Alien Hominid had poor sales compared to other big games.
"

Call me crazy, but 6 million is a pretty big number, and that most undoubtedly competes with the big boys.

Quote: "So no, I haven't seen a game made by a small number of people COMPETE with the big boys"

Battlefield 1942 was made by a relatively small team, Dice, and that's one of the most commercially successful PC games in history. EA didn't develop it, they distributed it.

Quote: "I don't own Alien Hominid, but I will bet you good money that there are more than 10 people in the credits."

Most of the credits are for distribution and marketing... more QA people than programmers! Yes, Alien Hominid was a very small development team, and consisted of less than 10 people.

Jeku, admit it just this once, your opinion is sort of biased here. You work at the largest gaming corporation in the world, Electronic Arts. You're accustomed to working with massive teams with multiple levels of management. And you see EA's success rate, and you connect that with the size of the teams that develop these games. But explain to me, seriously, why a small team couldn't make a game of equal quality? Huge corporations don't bring in several dozen people to develop a game because it'll make it better, they do it because it'll make it faster. And they're often developing on multiple platforms, usually for simultaneous releases in the same time frame. An indie studio would never be capable of that. But to say an indie studio is incapable of producing a high-quality commercially-successful game is just nuts. Seriously, it's only a matter of time before someone, maybe even someone on these forums, maybe even you or me, makes a game with high-quality assets (at the end of the day, it's all about assets and gameplay imo) that turns into a cult classic and sells a zillion copies.


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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Sep 2006 07:20 Edited at: 17th Sep 2006 07:24
Quote: "Call me crazy, but 6 million is a pretty big number, and that most undoubtedly competes with the big boys."


Read the link again. You are obviously skimming. 6 million downloads is not sales. Some free Flash download is NOT competition with Madden or Halo.

Quote: "Battlefield 1942 was made by a relatively small team, Dice, and that's one of the most commercially successful PC games in history. EA didn't develop it, they distributed it."


You're the one who said 5-10 people.

Quote: "here's no reason why 5-10 talented people couldn't make a game that competes with any major studio. "


BF 1942 was NOT made by 5-10 people, I can assure you. And you don't have to repeat that EA didn't make the game more than once

Quote: "But to say an indie studio is incapable of producing a high-quality commercially-successful game is just nuts."


Matt! You are making me nuts here, stop talking out of your ass. I didn't say an indie studio is incapable of producing a high-quality game, did I? I asked you to name a game that competes with the big boys that was developed by 5-10 people. You named Alien Hominid and BF1942, neither of which fit the criteria. Stop putting words in my mouth.

And I don't understand you saying I'm biased, just because I work for EA. I've been hobby coding and making my own games (and indie games) since I was around 8 years old. Hell, my last game team before EA, Infinite Games, consisted of about 15 people, so I know what it's like to work on an indie game.

Believe it or not, at EA I work with SMALL teams. It's not like there's 1,000 people working on a single title.

indi
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Posted: 17th Sep 2006 08:48
yes they can be innovative as much as the larger guys.
These companies drive is from the big fat juicy brains of the developers themselves.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Sep 2006 10:02
Sorry Jake, but when you say "name a game that competes with big studios" it sounds like a lot of negativity, as if you're saying "it has not, cannot, and will not be done." Alien Hominid is a pretty darn good example imo. The actual sales were probably closer to (guessing here) around 700k... but even if it was 500k, that's flippin' impressive seeing as how they had around 8 people working on it (according to Game Developer in a cover story about AH, the game had five people who quit their dayjobs to be fully devoted, and three or four others who "helped out" part time... I went and read it again because of this ). I think their story is one that we should all be rallying around, seriously. 6 million downloads, even if it was originally released for free, is hella-impressive imo. If they had matched an eigth of that in sales the game would be extremely successful.

Plus, you're setting the standards kind of high here. Halo and Madden? An indie studio will probably never have sales figures that high... I just don't see it happening, and I'm one of the most optimistic people around A game can't levitate to the top of the food chain by its merits alone; marketing and distribution makes up at least a third of a game's popularity, when you think about it, and that is, as far as I can tell anyway, the primary thing keeping indie teams from exploding.

I'm going to use Indi in an example because he was the last person to post here, so sorry Indi And this isn't targeted at you Jeku, it's more aimed at people who don't understand the business-side of things and/ or people who aren't getting my point about marketing's importance.

Let's say Indi made a game called, I dunno, "Green Dude with a Helmet." Let's say he makes it with the highest-quality assets (media) he can, so it looks, sounds, and plays like a big studio game. His friends are so impressed with Green Dude that they decide to help him fund adverts, and he pays for a $5000 banner on Myspace and a $3200 banner on IGN. The rest of the marketing is done "guerilla style," by indi going into chat rooms and on forums telling people about the game, and otherwise by word of mouth. Let's say this is the greatest game of all time, quality-wise... everyone who plays it foams at the hiney and salivates all over the screen. But in order to buy it, potential customers need to go to his website and download the game. How many units could he sell, at most? Just guessing here, but chances are he'll have a seriously difficult time reaching a million units. Even though the game is flat-out awesome to the tenth power, people are iffy about buying games via websites, and that is the thorn in the indie industry's side. So there's a question: how can an indie studio get high doses of exposure to the mass market on an "indie budget?"


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Sep 2006 11:53
Well I will end this arguement by single handedly making the ultimate MMORPG with the awesomest graphics and performance that makes the pros cry because its so awesome, full of shaders, keeping at 60FPS on the average machine for new gen games and do it all in DBP in a week.

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 17th Sep 2006 12:52
Quote: "So there's a question: how can an indie studio get high doses of exposure to the mass market on an "indie budget?""


You can't, by yourself, unless you take out a loan. But that's risky, as the returns might not be so great. A publisher will typically pay for advertising costs though. If they believe that they can make a profit from the game, then they will do so. That is what is going to happen with Geisha House.

So, I guess the challenge is to make a game worthy of being advertised. It's not even really worth worrying about until you have a game ready, or almost ready.


Come see the WIP!
Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Sep 2006 22:56 Edited at: 17th Sep 2006 22:57
But when you go with a major distributor, aren't you in a way cutting the indie out of your title? That's my biggest problem... when you sign with a distributor, they often tell you that they want various aspects of your game altered, and I wouldn't be cool with that. BF42, for instance, had blimps. Blimps! But EA wanted them taken out. I'm sure there was a good reason, maybe a technical thing or something, but if I design a game and I have something in said game, it's there for a reason, and I don't want someone telling me what I can and cannot have in my game. Maybe that person is wrong, even with all of their experience, and that aspect they're removing is a serious buying point for consumers. That's why I'll never sign with a major distributor... it's also why I'm destined to never be a zillionaire lol. Anyway, marketing and distribution are the bottlenecks for us indie developers, but there *must* be a way to get passed them. I refuse to say something is 100% impossible... this is, oh, 98% impossible, give or take, but that leaves us 2% to work with


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 17th Sep 2006 23:04 Edited at: 17th Sep 2006 23:08
Quote: "But when you go with a major distributor, aren't you in a way cutting the indie out of your title?"

No. I mean, you're still an independent developer. It doesn't change the development process at all. Having to follow a few extra rules doesn't change the core of the game either. Any creative professional has to follow a few rules, whether it be a writer or movie-maker or songwriter. True talent is being able to push the boundaries of those rules in a manner that is appealing.

But anyway, what's so great about being an indie developer? All it means is that we have no money and no reliable help. I'd love to have a professional team. I have much love for my fellow indie developers, but I assign no special value to being one. I think that the goal of any indie developer is to become a professional.

Your way of thinking is not conducive to making money. I love what I do, but ultimately if I can't make money doing it then it can only ever be a hobby, not a serious pursuit. I'm serious about what I do. Therefore, I want to be able to enjoy it and profit from it.


Come see the WIP!
Izzy545
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Posted: 17th Sep 2006 23:29 Edited at: 17th Sep 2006 23:30
Hey Jeku, looks like you missed this post:

Quote: "the first crash bandycoot game was made by 7 people. it was an article about how smaller gamemaking companies are becoming more common or something like that...
"


I looked up their timeline, looks like they started with 2 people and by the time they finished the first Crash Bandicoot they had 7 people working on it. I'd say that's a pretty succesful series started by a group of 5-10 people.

Redmotion
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Posted: 18th Sep 2006 02:00
Check out these:

Armadillo Run
Anything by Chronic Logic
Physics/Strategy game Bontago
Wild Earth
Terraformers

BLACKMESA:SOURCE - mod for HL2 - Texture Artist
BIRTHSTAR:FRONTLINE - Texture & Environment Artist
Jeku
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Posted: 18th Sep 2006 05:39 Edited at: 18th Sep 2006 05:40
You guys don't have to point me to all these games that are niche --- they're NOT competing with the big boys.

Aside from Crash Bandicoot, I haven't seen much proof that it's been done.

And Matt, not that I'm trashing your work ethic, but most publishers in any media will have requests for changes. If you're going to turn down a lucrative publishing deal because of a few non-essential changes, then there's not a lot of success for you to be had. If you're fine with that, then it's all good.

And the reason I'm naming Halo and Madden as big games is because they're at the top of their pile. Like I said, 9 out of 10 games FAIL--- even the recognizable titles you may love. That means 90% of games, commercial, fail, so your title has to REALLY be special for a) a publisher to pick it up and invest money and b) for it to even sell.

Getting a publisher is great and everything, but if your game goes straight to the $4.99 bargain bin at K-Mart, then you are not going to get anything back from your time. Unless you're working full-time on the game for free, which I assume nobody here is insane enough to do, then you will lose time, and time is money.

Fallout
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Posted: 18th Sep 2006 13:43
One thing to remember though is that an indie only needs to sell 100th the number of copies, perhaps less to make enough money to make a decent profit. EA needs to shift loads of copies to pay all their developers, marketing departments, premeses etc etc etc etc etc etc x 50. So in terms of total money made, big publishers will always make the most, but in terms of earnings and profit for individual team members, a good indie developer with a good business ethic who creates a good game is probably much more likely to be rolling in the green stuff.


indi
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Posted: 18th Sep 2006 15:30
when i was young, we didn't think of game houses as these multinational megcorp conglomerates that cant be touched with a very long stick in regards to content and quality of games.

EA was down the road from me in southport qld when i was a kid.
we would raid the dumpsters for disks code wheels and joysticks with the wires cut, that never stopped us until the police made patrols and security guards with dogs and padlocks finally stopped the dumpster runs. it was junk to them, we asked first if we could play with the broken games and stuff, they said ok once but got fed up or realized we were salvaging games.

ripped manuals taped back together, joysticks rewired code wheels roughly cut back into shape.
after all that nonsense we would raw copy the games and give each other a copy and play it to death. the point is if you want it bad enough you can do it but it takes sacrifice.
as kids we thought we were doing no harm, however we were doing warez in the 80's.
it allowed us to step up to amigas and from then it carried on until apples and then pcs loomed.

back then you could remake a lot of games that were being produced except for maybe when the amiga kids came and totally blew my mind out the window with what that machine could do, but before that it was and still is possible to create a game with that kind of game play.

It still is today but the market has moved to mobile phones. however no one says you cant do a 2d for pcs etc..

One of the biggest aspects in todays driven game development is realism. we are heading to even more realism with each step. I like realism, but i prefer graphics and shiny with great game play.

Atari cartridges like space invaders, pacman, frogger, tanks. etc were $90 AUD EACH! back in the day, no one would consider a game like that to be so expensive today, so are we basing price on REALISM? or are we balancing gameplay and visual gratification as well as audio gratification to base the price of the game?

I got my texas instruments ti99a and made pretty cool 2 player games with joysticks in 2d for my bro and I. I would spent hours finding hex values of 4 x 4 patterns on grid paper to make the graphics. lol i had to code on the computer to do graphics at the start. sucky max plus plus.

paint on the apple plus and deluxe paint on the amiga was a revolution that led into what we have today in regards to image editors.

When the amiga came I was more interested in other things except for pure gaming, never touched code for a few years and things got so far ahead I let it slide more. DBC was the first product to get me excited about making a game. I was studying java but the fact of blitting in the day was terrible for 2d games, DBC had easy 3d which pinched my eye.

In front of you now is the possibility to make a very cool game, it doesn't have to be massive in size. it doesn't have to have 50000 rare items but the potential to create these amounts can be partly coded, the rest is media content size that seems to throw the individual developer.

the amount of media could be created by one person but only if it was procedurally, think of one generic shaped 3d hammer and think of code that warps the generic shapes vertices into different shapes and paints over the texture in different ways.

This way the indi developer just has to work smarter to achieve the same media results.
It would never match hand crafted material but it stands to reason if executed well.

Procedural media may not match the realism push found in todays games, however there will be a time when the functions are so complex it will be hard to tell. by that time there will be games with truely over 1 million variants of the same game artifact. mesmerizing to think it can get that fat, but it will one day, the envelope just keeps going with the size of the pcs.

I can see a few types of coders, pure math brains who cant draw, pure art heads who cant code, and then a mix in the middle. Identify that in yourself and work on your weakest aspect once a week and you will eventually produce an amazing creation.

I wish i had the time to complete DT, Im going to buy the AI pack because multiple A* path finding monsters is kinda hard for this art brain.

Even mods sometimes lose focus, same with multinational game companies as well as indi developers.

The fact that you can build your Ideas into a game without sitting in a cubicle at work while at home in your pjs dreaming of anything you want instead of being told what to do as fast as possible is the true magic of game development.

Building your favorite game or recreating something already created is your choice. Not a manager or boss etc. Doing weird stuff that might not be commercial is as positive to the game development industry, sharing concepts and ideas fuels more creativity.

yes indi developers can do it with great focus and time.
I wish i had more time to assign but getting a job to pay the bills gets in the way when you move out etc.. plus your GF and family and friends who dont have the passion you have for deving games try to thwart your time and study.

it can be done if you have time and knowhow, money is not required however it attracts the smartest and clever artist so they can be comfortable in life.

Your game doesnt have to be the next Huge thing but if you craft it well and polish it with love, people will see the merit and remember your game and perhaps donate to you or buy your next game.

the fact you probably spent $50 - $500 for the software and $1000 for the computer to make it shouldnt be a problem if you stick with it and make enough games for people to choose from and purchase to return a small profit.

if your in it for a profit then drive your game on pure business mechanics, if your in to make a fun game people will see the fun and pay you for that pleasure.

Just dont be frightened of the large companies, they have 30 million more reasons to be worried then your dev studio.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Sep 2006 22:48
No one can ever yell at me for a long post again jk

I'm content in knowing that I'll never make a gajillion dollars making games. My target is to make enough money to live comfortably, I don't need a zillion bucks The ultimate goal is to eventually finish the FPS game we've been working on since the dawn of time and for that to make us enough money that "bills" and "worry" are never in the same sentence again in our home. Well, unless someone says "Who put that bill on the floor, aren't you worried someone might slip?" Okay, that wasn't that funny, but anyway... my team's plan currently is to release a bunch of small-scale games, most of which are 2D, and save most of the net to put towards purchasing advertisements for the first big 3D FPS game we do. We have a bunch planned for 2007, and hopefully at least half of those will be recieved well by the public.

Speaking of games we have planned, I said about a month or two ago that we had two games planned for release in September... it isn't going to happen. I learned something new about myself: I can't stay focused on two different genres at one time One game was a 2D political fighting game (a comedy of course), and the other is a text adventure set on an island full of villages, so the vast difference in the games slowed me down on both. So I'm doing the text adventure first, then we'll go in as a team and finish the fighting game. I know for certain someone will say "you're nuts," and that someone's name will probably start with a "J" (jk!), but we're actually going to sell the text adventure. Back when we did the Text Adventure Competition, someone from gamedev e-mailed me and asked if text adventures were marketable. I hastefully said no, but then I started thinking... how do I know? I mean, common sense tells me that it's impossible for a text adventure to turn a serious profit, but then the "what if" hamster in my head said "DO IT!" So I'm going to conduct a "study" about how text adventures sell in the modern indie market, and I'm going to make a thread dedicated to the subject in Game Design Theory. I already know that most people will say "pfft, goodluck, you'll need it," but it's more of an experiment than an actual business venture. If it sells good, that's more money for TGC because there's a ton of new expansions I need If it doesn't sell well, I'll have learned, and I'll have shared the experience in full so that others can learn from my mistakes. I dunno, hopefully the results will be at least interesting hehe.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Jeku
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Posted: 18th Sep 2006 22:57 Edited at: 18th Sep 2006 22:57
you're nuts


hehehe, just had to say that

Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Sep 2006 23:47
lol as it was predicted! But seriously, do you think this is a stupid idea or is it worth it if only to find out if they can sell okay? If it sells 1000 units I'll make a sequel, if it sells 2500 I'll need to buy diapers and handy wipes lol It's not possible for it to sell more than that on a good day, but if it does, happy-happy-joy-joy


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 19th Sep 2006 03:42
Matt Rock, it won't sell. I sure hope it does, for your sake, but I just don't see it happening. The market is saturated with free text adventures, and a lot of them are very good. Editors like TADS and Adrift allow people to make IF with excellent parsers. I still play one every now and then. I just wouldn't pay, because there are so many great games out there for free. There are IF organizations that organize and review the games too. None of them try to sell the games produced by their competitions.

Time is an investment, and I don't see this as being a wise business plan.


Come see the WIP!
Matt Rock
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Posted: 19th Sep 2006 05:15
Eh, we'll see. I think a lot of the reason why they give the games away for free is because they think they won't sell, although I'm willing to bet most haven't tried. It's worth a try as an experiment, and if it sells horribly and is still selling bad when we release the 2D fighter, which will be shareware, we'll probably just sell it for free and I'll have learned my lesson But I figured it's worth a try, and imo, 2500 sales at $2.99 for a text adventure would be a *complete* success, I mean an absolute and total perfect success. We'll probably be using Josh's Spidahost service for website stuff, and that'll be our only distribution cost, so if it only sells three copies per month it's already paying for itself lol. And if it doesn't, eh, the loss isn't too bad And at least we'll know if they can sell or not, and if I did something wrong while trying to market it using a guerilla campaign, someone will most assuredly point it out to me lol. So I dunno, I'm going to give it a whirl.

Also, it's important to note that this game will not be conforming to the rules of the text adventure competition, lol. It'll be around the same file size, but it's packed with music and images, sort of a "ultra-modern" IF. I'm hoping we sell enough copies that developing a sequel would be worth it... I'd like to use Poser to create still images of people's heads for dialog scenes, might be kind of neat I think. I love text adventures, making any money whatsoever from one would be the ultimate in awesome


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Jeku
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Posted: 19th Sep 2006 07:06 Edited at: 19th Sep 2006 07:11
Quote: "2500 sales at $2.99 for a text adventure"


I'd wager you won't even sell 2.5 copies

And I'm not trying to be a jerk. NOBODY plays text adventures. Hell, not a lot of people play full-fledged adventure games anymore (sadly). There are countless examples of games in history that were hallmark games that have sold under 1000. And I'm talking innovative, unique, good, etc.

You might get a few sales from friends and family who feel bad for you, but that's it.

EDIT:

A good example of this is the Zork series--- classic in its own right, as some would say are the best text adventures ever. They were put on the web for free, so you'll have to compete with them.

Saikoro
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Posted: 19th Sep 2006 08:55
Make flash games and make money from advertising. Problem solved


[url="http://www.phoenixophelia.com"]PhOp[/url]
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 19th Sep 2006 09:33
@Matt Rock -
If you want to make money with this, you're going to have to be really innovative. Music and pictures in IF is nothing new. The Hobbit was made in 1983 and had pictures and music. I LOVED that game, absolutely loved it.



A few years later (1991) I played a game called Spellcasting 101. It had pictures, music, sound effects, and a menu that had a list of available commands and targets. You could type or select from the menu. It was a good game, and the interface was good because it took away the guesswork from the game. IF generally suffers from this.



If you want to make money, you're going to have to be REALLY innovative. A simple text adventure wouldn't do it. You'd have to do something like integrate a text parser into something like an RPG in the form of intelligent conversations. Something along those lines. You have to breathe new life into the genre, and doing stuff that has already been done won't do it. You aren't just competing against Zork, but against technically more advanced games like Spellcasting 101, available now for free.

If your team helped you on this game, I predict that they will be very unhappy with the outcome. Leading a team in the development of an unsuccessful game is a great way to break up your team.


Come see the WIP!
Van B
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Posted: 19th Sep 2006 11:34
The Hobbit rocked, easily my favourite adventure game from that era - I loved the more advanced things you could do, like chat with Gollum or send Thorin away to make an idiot of himself.

I'd say that sadly there's very few people who'd actually pay for a text adventure these days. Even the handheld device market is saturated with things like Kronos, this let's you play Magnetic Scrolls adventures, and it's easy to get all these games downloaded and working. So emulation has kinda killed the market, really a game like that would need to do something more than all these classics.

One thing that was never really developed is the interface, Wonderland had an strange interface for an adventure game, kinda Macintoshy, with icons for items and a proper map. Perhaps introducing more RPG elements into it while still maintining the adventure game style would help. You have to target peoples minds to hope to sell a game like that, perhaps you could make the puzzles insanely difficult, get a game a reputation for being an incredibly difficult adventure game, and you'll get text-adventurer's comming out of retirement to take up the challenge .

''Stick that in your text and scroll it!.''
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 19th Sep 2006 12:44
I can't believe I didn't mention it, but one of my ultimate favorite text adventures was also an RPG, by Infocom. Zork 0, I think. It included automapping, stats, classes, money, combat, and many references to the Zork mythology. I loved that game.

One thing I loved about The Hobbit was how you could get your character drunk on the wine in the Wood Elves cellar. It would slur all of the text, it was great


Come see the WIP!

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