Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / Surely game dev folk don't have moral values!

Author
Message
Megaton Cat
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Aug 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 28th Sep 2006 23:22 Edited at: 28th Sep 2006 23:48
After the Montreal shooting, my folks went on a long rant about the sin of videogames killing children and all that stuff we've all here discussed already, blah blah. Then they said that whatever programmers/artists were shameless enough to work on these game projects were equally responsible.

I instantly thought of people here like Jeku who work at EA and simply get placed by the company to work on whatever project they choose. I then told them that it's really not up to the employees to decide what game to make or not. As you can guess, it's quite hard to explain the process to two people who know nothing about the game industry and it's shadowy pawns. They then said that fresh graduates looking for work in the industry should refuse to work on violent games (Translation: 90% of the current games out there)

Now I know that there are people here who'd say the same thing. One said that even if he was offered creative control over the next GTA, he'd refuse because he doesn't agree with the game's content and wants to protect his children or whatever. So what do you think? As a programmer or would-be programmer looking for work, would you turn down a callback from a company to work as a programmer/texture artist/animator on "Manhunt 2: More man hunting" because you personally don't agree with the overall theme of the game? More importantly, in today's competitive industry, can you even risk doing that?

It'd suck not even telling your own parents what project you're working out of fear of them raging out because you're apparantly contributing your time towards the next "child murder simulator".



Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 28th Sep 2006 23:52
Quote: "One said that even if he was offered creative control over the next GTA, he'd refuse because he doesn't agree with the game's content and wants to protect his children or whatever. "


Not quite my quote but close enough. I have no aversion to violence in games and would gladly work on many of them, there is a point I personally would not cross ala GTA, Manhunt I would have to take a closer look at before I would make a decision. Can you risk turning down work? I say yes, there are plenty of companies out there or you could always start your own. Will you make as much money turning down work, probably not unless you get lucky and stumble into the right project. Video games are in no way responsible for the actions of the morons in this world, just another place to try to place blame.

I guess what I am saying is I would rather take less money for a project I am proud to be part of then get paid much more for something I would be ashamed to be associated with.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Tinkergirl
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jul 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 28th Sep 2006 23:54 Edited at: 29th Sep 2006 00:06
I have worked on two really quite violent computer games. Decapitaion, removal of limbs, grenades, chainsaws, torture, blood - you name it. One sold moderately well, and the other sold by the absolute bucketload.

I don't lie awake at night worried about the moral consequences of making violent games, especially not when both of those games were rated "M FOR MATURE", or 18 Cert (depending on country). Neither game was in any way shape or form intended for children - any shop that sells those games to children should be shut down and sued, and any parent idiotic enough to buy those games for their unsupervised kid should have their children taken off them.

Games, like films, music and even books have an age that they are appropriate for, and ages that they are not appropriate for. Any parent who believes that a child should play an M/18 game, but not watch The Sopranos, or listen to 'Explicit Lyric' music, or read something like Lady Chatterly's Lovers (sp) or buy Playboy, is a hypocrite and should pay attention to what they let their children touch.


[edit] Oops - I didn't even answer the question. *Doh!* Right - anyway, as you can tell, I didn't turn down work on violent games. Unfortunately, work in the games industry isn't easy to get, especially for those just breaking into the industry. While it may sound like an easy way out, it's often publishers that decide the tone of the game that you'll be making (or indeed the genre or liscence) and believe me that if people didn't buy violent games, then publishers wouldn't publish a single one. We're not 'innocent' of making games, and we can't just blame everyone but ourselves, but violent games sell, we certify them through a certification board (which is quite strict, actually) and we don't try to pimp our games to children. Personally, I go where the work is - I can't afford not to. I'd like to work on happy sunny games (I'm a happy sunny person ), but that's not what I have the option to do right now.

Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 00:28 Edited at: 29th Sep 2006 00:29
It's silly to say that games like GTA turn people into criminals. Take Halo for example. You run and gun in first-person mode nonetheless, killing aliens and stealing their spaceships, running them over them in the process. Sounds like GTA but with a different skin, right? Instead of human hookers and pedestrians, it's ugly aliens--- but they have feelings too, right?

I agree with Tinker in that as long as the game is rated appropriately, I would not lose sleep over it. That being said, the closest commercial violent games I've worked on was football--- and I'm doing yet another football game this year. I would not turn down an opportunity to work on the next GTA, Godfather sequel, Doom, Halo, or other violent game. The same can be said if I were an actor I would not turn down a role in a violent Oliver Stone film if was rated appropriately.

Funny how a lot of violent movies are called "art", yet critics don't use art and video game in the same sentence... ever.

Agent Dink
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Mar 2004
Location:
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 00:31 Edited at: 29th Sep 2006 00:38
I don't mind games with violence, it's games with explicit sexual content that I would turn down. It's against my morals alot more than violence.

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 00:38
Quote: "I don't mind games with violence, it's games with explicit sexual content that I would turn down."


Agreed. Some explicit language is fine with me, but morally I would turn down working in the porn game industry.

Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 00:57
Violence is a vital ingredient. Good videogames release stress, some people like to blow stuff up, really if you can't differntiate then you've got mental problems already. Frankly it's too damn easy to blame the media as a whole when your faced with very little defence. There was actually a documentary about GTA a while back, aparantly 2 kids who used GTA's supposed influence as defence in a murder trial ended up in juvy, but were basically told by the gangs in there, ''Get our game banned, and you're dead''.

Why is GTA the biggest selling game of it's type, maybe any type, because it's damn good fun to kill prostitutes and cops, but that's really the tip of the iceberg. If someone made a beat-em-up where you fought cops and prostitutes, it'd bomb - GTA is so big and so influencial because it's an incredibly daunting game world where you get to actually behave like a psychopath. Behaving like a psychopath and plugging innocents from the library roof are very different things .

I have plans to do all sorts of cap peeling moves in a game, like fragments of skull flying off, and lot's of sick stuff like that - but it'll be with Chibbi style characters, so perfectly acceptable.

''Stick that in your text and scroll it!.''
Tinkergirl
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jul 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 01:03
Quote: "I don't mind games with violence, it's games with explicit sexual content that I would turn down. It's against my morals alot more than violence."


Now, I find that interesting (and Jeku's agreement with it). Now, I'm not saying for a second that I'd work on a porn game, so you can stop thinking that right now - but I know that I find it strange on some level that films and games can show people being decapitated, tortured to within an inch of their lives, raped and all kinds - but showing any kind of love scene other than missionary style is considered brain-explodingly taboo. I've not read into it that much (and it's possibly a bit risque for this forum) but...

Violence/War = OK
Love/Sex = BAD

Seems a bit messed up to me.

Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 01:06
Quote: "Love/Sex = BAD"


I don't think that at all. Porn and love/sex are two completely different things. I just don't see any entertainment value in playing a game where you have to make love in-game---- for one I can't imagine how that would be fun--- button mashing maybe? Hehehe.

Aaaanyways...

Tinkergirl
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jul 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 01:11
Well, I did mention that it was both games and films. I wasn't talking about pornography either (because that's got nothing to do with love either) but I think it strange that people would be more shocked to go into a film theatre and see a film about say, a sexually liberated 80yr old, than see someone hacking off another persons leg in brutally graphic detail.

*shrugs* Maybe I don't have a proper point. I'll stop now.

Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 01:39
Maybe it's a double standard? I would be guilty myself. When I have kids I will let them watch shows that are violent, but cover their eyes during the nude scenes. Honestly it's easy to see why one would be more accepted than the other--- they are different things! You don't hear people ask "why do you drink coffee but not tea?" after all. Violence and sex shouldn't be looked at equally in my eyes.

Fallout
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 12:10
Quote: "Violence and sex shouldn't be looked at equally in my eyes."


Definitely not. It's funny how parents get paranoid about their kids seeing any sexual activity. I think it's their own embaressment more than anything. Sex, yes a tricky issue, but parents get paranoid about nakedness. I mean really, kids should never be protected from non-sex related nakedness, in my opinion.

Quote: "a sexually liberated 80yr old"


I think you're right. That does sound horrific.

Quote: "I just don't see any entertainment value in playing a game where you have to make love in-game"


I think that sort of game would fall into the category of love dolls etc. Basically it'd be cheap thrill interactive porn for adolescents and lonely chaps. I don't think you could make a respectable game for a wide audience like that. It'd have to be sleazy smut.


Darth Vader
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th May 2005
Location: Adelaide SA, I am the only DB user here!
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 13:28
Haven't read the whole post (my bad) but I get the jist!
I agree with Agent Dink about what he would turn down (Agaisnt my Morals too). But a parent that lets their child buy and play a violent computer game is the one at fault. They should see what game the child is getting. Like Megaton said 90% of games are violent, I like Star Wars Games WW I and II games because one Star Wars is fictional and two WW I or II are Non-fictional Historic events that should be remembered! Games like GTA were you kill for points in a real life city - a.k.a San Andres - is a little bad, and that is the type of game that will get kids killing people in the street. Why? Because it shows them how to do it. I can go up and punch anybody I want in the street, sure I would be in jail but hey, what else is stopping me? I can steal a car and bash up the whole city but again I wouldn't have a very happy future!

Fantasy games are a little diferrent because you wouldn't see an orc walking down the street, or your neighbour casting a new spell or anything like that, so kids would probably not be as inclined to go out and start killing people. Same as a WWI or II game were they have field commanders giving orders to the troops were you kill only for defense and were you use advanced weaopondry that a kid couldn't get there hands on.

Okay I'll stop now before I get myself in trouble!



Oh by the way this is my opinion I speak for myself not for any other party!

Lukas W
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Sep 2003
Location: Sweden
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 13:57
the most violent games i've played is Soldier of Fortune 2 and Postal 2. i guess everybody have tried one of those games atleast once.

"running with scissors" are joking around with the theme of violence.
they even put themselves in the game so you can run around killing the employees.

"raven studios" are not joking with the violence.
if you shoot somebody in the head, you can almost look through the skull. take a knife, and you can chop of a leg, or two.
use the shotgun and detach the upper part of the body so only the legs and one arm remains. it seriously is the bloodiest game i've ever played.

however, those are the best games i've played (within the theme of violence). i would love working with "Running with Scissors" and help develop the new postal

Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 13:58
I tend to let my son play most games, like the GTA series, Oblivion, a little RE4 as well, but I did make sure it was the freeplay section, where nothing that scary happens, but it probably would'nt affect him anyway. I let him watch violent movies, to an extent. That's the thing though, I don't just hand him games that I haven't tried, he doesn't get to watch films unless I know what they're about. Films that I consider ok for horrors, like monsters mainly - Pumpkinhead is about a vengence demon, and is like our favourite horror movie - it's the same certification as SAW. I'd be most annoyed at anyone letting my son watch SAW. Another point on that - the Original 'Hills Have Eyes' and 'Dawn of the Dead', He can watch those, but not the remakes. The remake of Hills especially, the rape and stuff is very graphic, unnecesserily IMO. The original has better characters too - likeable characters change a horror movie a great deal. I let him watch Land of the Dead, because it's lame as hell, but not 28 Days Later, that's probably the scariest zombie flick yet.

If he was only interested in one type of film, then I'd be more concearned, horror movies make up a good chunk of the best movies ever made so I try to let him see as much of this stuff as I sensibly can. I'm currently watching the Aliens quadrilogy (sp?, pfft!) with him, 2nd movie (Aliens) tonight, I'm sure he'll love it.

''Stick that in your text and scroll it!.''
Lukas W
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Sep 2003
Location: Sweden
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 14:05
i remember wathcing alien 2 when i was about 8 years old.
i couldn't sleep after that, and yet i only watched until they found the little girl.

are you sure he like the alien movies? or are you just trying to get him scared?

Nicholas Thompson
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Sep 2004
Location: Bognor Regis, UK
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 14:34
Personally I think its shifting the blame. If someone see's a violent film or plays a violent game and then has the urge to shoot up a school then the problem is a LOT deeper than the trigger. If they wanna ban violent games then they're gonna have to go the whole way and ban violence full stop (which would also have to extend to war) otherwise you're just removing 1 of a million potential triggers.

Its a stupid arguement anyway - even if violent games to cause people to be violent, far fewer people die from that violence than from things like being killed by a car. If you wanna ban violent games because it causes grief from stupid people then you should also ban all cars because stupid people can use those to cause grief too..

I personally would have no moral dilema making a game which contained violence. This is because - and this is important - ITS A GAME. ITS NOT REALITY.

People who lose the ability to distinguish the difference between reality and fiction/non-reality are people who need a visit from the people in white coats.

Also - banning violent movies and games... Why stop there? What about violent books? Words always have more of a mental impact that images as they cause/force you to imagine them. What about adverts that sell using sex? Surely if someone has a mental problem and they see something like that there is a chance it force them down the rape/assault route. What about sport? Do you have relatives who sit there and scream and shout at the TV when their team loses? How much of a step from being aggressive at an inannimate object is it to being aggressive towards an ANIMATE object such as a wife or child? Some people have trouble controlling aggression so is it right we broadcast (publically) content which is almost designed to emtionally stir people up?

[center]
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 14:38 Edited at: 29th Sep 2006 14:40
Nah, he actually has good taste in movies, and he was fine with Alien - if he got freaked out or didn't want to watch then I'd switch it off. He actually notices the different aspects of these movies, likes nothing more than watching the monsters get it in the neck in the end.

Personally I don't think Aliens are any more scary than the pirates in Pirates of the Carribean - showing people with no skin is just as disturbing in my book, yet that's acceptable and aimed at children. I'd say Sayiid torturing Sawyer in Lost is a helluva more disturbing than Aliens, yet that's deemed appropriate.

''Stick that in your text and scroll it!.''
Agent Dink
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Mar 2004
Location:
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 18:52
I saw Alien when I was about 6 or 7. I liked it alot. I'm pretty surprised my parents let me watch it being rated R and everything. These are the folks who spazz when I tell them I'm going to see a PG-13 movie . Nothing from movies, games or TV had ever really affected me when I was young.... Because it's FAKE. As long as a little kid understands this, then really there shouldn't be any issues after the movie is finished.

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 19:23
Quote: "Games like GTA were you kill for points in a real life city - a.k.a San Andres - is a little bad, and that is the type of game that will get kids killing people in the street."


Proof? Links?

Okay--- how about a vote for this being the most ridiculous statement made this week?

Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 19:30 Edited at: 29th Sep 2006 20:06
Here's a fact - I'm interested in making games, not caring for the morals of others. My morals are simple - loyalty and honor. Not much else really matters to me. So, when I create a game, it will naturally reflect those values and as a consequence I will not be opposed to explicit violence or sexuality, so long as they are in keeping with the plot of the game.

Normal functional people won't do anything different after playing these games. It is nothing but a brief escape. However, people that are already near the edge might not be able to handle it. I believe that those people would find a different way off the edge without video games. Perhaps the games speed things up, but the end result is the same.

People can shift the blame to games, but they aren't right. Game makers can shift the blame off of themselves, but they aren't right either. All we can do is fight to preserve our art, but I think that hiding behind deception is nothing but cowardice.

As for concerns about comparing video games to art, the genre of video games simply isn't matured enough to be seriously considered art. Movies were in exactly the same position when they first started out. As technology and techniques mature, it will be taken seriously as art. We'd all best get in now before it's too late.


Come see the WIP!
mm0zct
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Nov 2003
Location: scotland-uk
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 19:56 Edited at: 29th Sep 2006 19:58
Quote: "Funny how a lot of violent movies are called "art", yet critics don't use art and video game in the same sentence... ever."


i think this probably has a lot to do with the fact computer games are interactive, you are actively participating in the violence in the game, where as with a film you are passively watching it.

i wouldn't pass up a chance to work on almost any game, certainly not over violence grounds. i'd much rather work on doom 4 than barbie riding club 2 for example.

age ratings are there for a reason and the parents should take more responsibility for a childs perspective of what is right and wrong.

AMD athlon 64 3000+, 1GB ddr400, 400GB total hdd, ati radeon x700pro 256mb (pci-e) 17" tft(@1280x1024).
Krilik
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Mar 2006
Location: Arizona, USA
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 20:31
Its kind of interesting how people can claim video games turn people into criminals. I can't help but think what that makes people who make games then. Logically if video games have the capability of turning people into criminals, then the creators of these video games must be criminal masterminds.
Tinkergirl
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jul 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 21:01
Quote: "then the creators of these video games must be criminal masterminds"


Mwahahah? Nah. Not really

Benjamin
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 21:23
Quote: "then the creators of these video games must be criminal masterminds"

Erm, yes, because the creators create these games for the sole purpose of turning people into criminals like themselves, not actually anything to do with the money at all.

Tempest - P2P UDP Multiplayer Plugin (DBP/DBCe)
Download the free version
Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 29th Sep 2006 23:06
Quote: ""Games like GTA were you kill for points in a real life city - a.k.a San Andres - is a little bad, and that is the type of game that will get kids killing people in the street.""


I Vote Aye.

Have to say this has been an interesting read. I would like to clarify my position. I love violence in games, if there is a purpose for it. Killing opposing army grunts, hunting down bad guys or things that represent evil or a threat to the player are acceptable. Where I draw the line is violence for no reason but to be violent, GTA goes there for me, killing innocents for no reason but personal gain, killing people who are there to protect those innocents is just not something I would find fullfilling or want to admit to being a part of. I will however fight to the death to defend the rights of others to produce such games as they have every right too.

About video game companies however I will say this, they may label the games appropriately but they market towards kids. I watch TV with the kids alot and saw comercials for the GTA brand during shows such as Avatar, and Ed, Edd, and Eddy, places I thought the ad was out of place. It should still fall on the parents to make sure their kids play games suitable for them but I have to say these companies should not market toward groups the games are not supposed to be for.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
H4ck1d
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Dec 2005
Location: Yes
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 00:10
I'm with Hobgoblin Lord on this one. There is definitely a difference between violence as a result of protecting yourself or stopping something "bad" or "evil," but I do believe that anything besides that, such as GTA, or Postal, etc., goes too far.

Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 01:06
The whole debate is stupid. Every reputable study ever conducted shows that games don't incite violence in people. I started playing games with the colecovision and the atari 2600, and PC games on the IBM PCjr (benefit of having a dad who worked at IBM hehe). Never got violent. We had Doom and a number of other excessively violent games on the SNES and other consoles growing up. Never got violent. If you're mentally "slow," yeah, a game might influence you to harm yourself or others... a movie would too. But I've NEVER heard someone say "oh, that kid watched Die Hard last night and shot up his school, it's John McTiernan's fault that those kids died." Makes me so angry Not that movies make people violent either... I saw Predator AND Terminator and a number of other violent movies in the theater as a kid and I didn't feel influenced to kill people on my way home. Ultimately, it's up to the parents what their kids are allowed to do, and I know I'll catch slack for this because I do every time I say it, but it's the parent's fault if the kid goes into school the next day and blows holes in his or her classmates as well.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Megaton Cat
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Aug 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 01:19 Edited at: 30th Sep 2006 01:20
Despite the fact that this did mostly turn into another "violence in videogames", I'm glad most people agree. I don't think the hardworking folks helping put these games together should be considered the enemy, but I guess there's no convincing old fashioned people like my parents.

My Dad is also strongly suggesting the government should ban any videogames involving the killing of cops. (Yes, my parents grew up in the Soviet Union, so the concept for them is outrageous.)



Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 01:24
Quote: "The whole debate is stupid. Every reputable study ever conducted shows that games don't incite violence in people."


Correct, only 3 credible studies have ever been done and none of them found that absorbing violent media increased violent tendancies. In fact in a study of people in prison for violent crimes showed that violent offenders took in a considerably less amount of violent media than is average for US citizens.

Quote: "If you're mentally "slow," yeah, a game might influence you to harm yourself or others... a movie would too."


I disagree here a person who commits a violent act may have been drawn to violent games/movies but in all likely hood would commit a violent crime wheather they watched Texas Chainsaw massacre or Babmi. The game/movie/song/book may influence how they carry out the act but they would just think up their own if they had too.

Quote: "but it's the parent's fault if the kid goes into school the next day and blows holes in his or her classmates as well."


While I agree parents are responsible for raising their children, they are not really anymore to blame than the video game companies when their child performs such an act, except I would say in cases of abuse. The parents may stupidly contribute to how easily they commit such a crime however by purchasing them a gun or other weapon and ignoring Johnnies violent behavior.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Saikoro
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2003
Location: California
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 04:48
Quote: "While I agree parents are responsible for raising their children, they are not really anymore to blame than the video game companies when their child performs such an act, except I would say in cases of abuse. The parents may stupidly contribute to how easily they commit such a crime however by purchasing them a gun or other weapon and ignoring Johnnies violent behavior."

Erm... the parents have the ability to stop kids from buying their games, same as they have the ability to stop kids from owning weapons or drugs. Parents are responsible for the upbringing of their children, and saying that they aren't any more responsible than a video game company when they perform a violent act is laughable at best.


[url="http://www.phoenixophelia.com"]PhOp[/url]
Krilik
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Mar 2006
Location: Arizona, USA
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 05:25 Edited at: 30th Sep 2006 05:27
Quote: "Correct, only 3 credible studies have ever been done and none of them found that absorbing violent media increased violent tendancies. In fact in a study of people in prison for violent crimes showed that violent offenders took in a considerably less amount of violent media than is average for US citizens."

That is true, but so do all competitive things. Have you ever seen stadium riots? And those happen on a massive scale. I've yet to see all hell break loose at a LAN party. The most you hear about are kids who play video games commit crimes. But all the other activites they do, don't effect their violent behavior at all?
Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 05:31
I've seen all hell break loose at a lan party, a food fight in the only room where there weren't computers present. Nerds flinging slices of pizza, it made for an entertaining evening. Well, it wasn't really a riot though, more like us taking the game into the real world. But we didn't shoot at each other lol, we through pizza and did it with laughter and grins


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Megaton Cat
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Aug 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 05:54
I can only imagine what a nerd riot would look like. It would be mostly quiet, with shambling and moaning heard in the background. Inhalers also being whiped out left and right.

Steam Assassin
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Sep 2005
Location: behind you...
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 06:31
That is a hilarious thought, Megaton...Wait a minute, your not Megaton anymore! I hate change.


I used to have one of those signs, but then realized how annoying it was...
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 07:36
There's nothing wrong with buying your kid a gun. If you raise your kid properly then he/she will know how to use it properly, much like how to drive a car without careening it into a crowd of partying teens or how to cut a carrot without stabbing his little sister.

One of my favourite UHF quotes: "Guns don't kill people. I do."

Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 09:03
Quote: "Erm... the parents have the ability to stop kids from buying their games, same as they have the ability to stop kids from owning weapons or drugs. Parents are responsible for the upbringing of their children, and saying that they aren't any more responsible than a video game company when they perform a violent act is laughable at best."


I agree, but that is not what I am saying, buying a kid a gun, letting them play violent games or watch violent movies does not make them violent, the child is violent to begin with and that can be something you have little to no control over as a parent. Sure you can get them counseling and talk to them but a psycopath is a psycopath no matter what you do. You may raise your child well and they still perform some insane act. I made an exception for certain circumstances that may contribute to a violent atitude or mental trauma but in the end the only one truly responsible for such horrific acts are those who perform them.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 09:50
I don't believe at all that video games make people violent. However, they do desensitize people to violence. If people have to propensity to be crazy, and they are thoroughly desensitized, then it would be easier for them to do something horrifically violent.

It is evident in people that aren't crazy and are put into combat situations. Young soldiers are now saying that combat feels like a video game. It's easier to do something when you've done it many times before, even if it was only a simulation. If you train crazy people do shoot, drive, fly planes, etc., you'd better watch out.


Come see the WIP!
Nicholas Thompson
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Sep 2004
Location: Bognor Regis, UK
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 13:36
Quote: "There's nothing wrong with buying your kid a gun."

A few points:
1) Why would a child ever need a gun?
2) What is the sole purpose of a gun?
3) If guns weren't so easily available, do you think that gun crime would decrease?

[center]
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 14:27
If guns weren't so easily available then crime would definitely decrease. Countries like Japan that don't have guns have very low crime rates. Some people will have guns anyway, and I think that Americans believe that if they have guns then they can defend themselves, which is silly.

Guns were important when America was a big frontier. Now that America isn't they aren't nearly as important. Unfortunately there's not much that can be done about it is so deeply ingrained as one of our basic rights.

At least it would be impossible for another country to invade America. Thugs, cops, and hillbillies would join forces to fight evil


Come see the WIP!
Megaton Cat
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Aug 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 14:49
Quote: "There's nothing wrong with buying your kid a gun."


Wtf is your kid gonna need a gun for?

Benjamin
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 14:57
Quote: "Wtf is your kid gonna need a gun for?"

To shoot people with obviously. *duh*

Tempest - P2P UDP Multiplayer Plugin (DBP/DBCe)
Download the free version
Hobgoblin Lord
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Oct 2005
Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 17:52
Quote: "A few points:
1) Why would a child ever need a gun?"


Not that I would get my children a gun, but why does a child need a piano, or violin? To learn its proper use. there are such things as competitive shooting heck there are even olympic events. You may also want to teach a child to hunt had Y2K happened like doomsayers said it would those kids would have had a huge advantage towards survival. Any tool or skill can be used for evil.

Quote: "2) What is the sole purpose of a gun?"


Depends on the purchaser I suppose, a NYC cab driver likely buys a gun for protection, a guy in west virginia likely buys it to hunt, others may just collect them like franklin mint chess sets and never fire a one to keep them in mint condition. What is the sole purpose of a PC? Some want them for games, some for work, some for porn, and some to commit internet crime.

Quote: "3) If guns weren't so easily available, do you think that gun crime would decrease?"


Hard to say there have been studies that show an increase and a decrease (Guess all you have to do is ask the right questions). I do think that if the common man were unable to acquire a firearm criminals would seek to get a gun more often as their target is far less likely to have one. In short criminals will always look for an advantage and guns being less accessible would be a boon to them.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
Check out my great stuff here
Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 19:28
Cash, when I said that exact same thing last year, everyone ate me alive hehe. But I completely agree with you. Hobgoblin has a good point, in some places like England, crime has increased, in other places like Japan, it's decreased. I think the culture of the country in question has a lot to do with whether or not violent crimes would increase or decrease as a result, but I'm no anthropology student.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Drunken Fiesta
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Dec 2005
Location:
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 21:20 Edited at: 30th Sep 2006 21:23
Anyone who thinks there's any respect for the arts nowadays should take a look at the kind of reputation GTA gets. If they can still say the arts are respected, then I really want to know what train of thought led to that.

It just really bugs me, because Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas was one of the best games I've ever seen. It had a good story, a very strong atmosphere even for an adventure game, and it had the largest and complete game world I've ever seen. To top it all off, the interactivity of it is still unsurpassed years after it's release. It was one of the few 3D games out there that actually pushes 3D as a necessity as opposed to a crowd pleaser. It's an amazing achievement in technology and artistic talent, and people rip it apart for it's violence and sex content even though if they have working eyes and half a brain they can clearly see the game wasn't made for kids anyway.

I can't even figure out where people get the idea that games are made just for kids, considering the average gamer is between 25 and 30 years old. How in the world can it surprise people that perhaps game makers would make games that have the average gamer as the target audience?
Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 21:34
Because our generation has remained the target audience for ages. When we were kids, games were aimed at kids. Now that we're adults, games are aimed at adults. But the people who haven't played games that whole time, the people who haven't seen the technology grow along with the maturity level of the themes, you know, congressmen, those are the people who don't understand that games aren't for little kids anymore. There's games for kids, like Finding Nemo games and all that, and then there's games for adults, like GTA. Without political lobbyists, our industry is doomed to be picked on by the government, and every time they bring it up, it makes parents say "oh, I voted for this guy, so he must be right." Or at least that's how it works out in my head lol.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 22:11
Quote: "A few points:
1) Why would a child ever need a gun?"


I dunno, to shoot? Target practice? There's no difference between a gun and a bow with a few arrows. You can kill somebody with a bb or pellet gun--- ban those too? I grew up shooting guns, so I know firsthand that 99.99% of people who own them are responsible, and you never hear about it.

Quote: "2) What is the sole purpose of a gun?"


To shoot, what do you think. Notice I didn't say "to shoot at people."

Quote: "3) If guns weren't so easily available, do you think that gun crime would decrease?"


No! Gun control hasn't worked anywhere. Some countries require their citizens to own guns and their violence per capita is less than that of the US. I can name hundreds of things that can be used as a tool to hurt somebody.

If you take a kid hunting in the woods for a few days, he will learn valuable life skills including safety, responsibility, and other worthwhile values. And no, I'm not going to argue about this with anyone

Megaton Cat
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Aug 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 22:35 Edited at: 30th Sep 2006 22:47
Guns for "protection" and "hunting"? Please.

Hunting I can rant on for another page and a half, but that's another issue.

The whole "guns for protection" argument itself is just stupid. Why don't we just say it like it is - some people just flippin' love their guns. I know what it's like to really dig a certain weapon, as I love katanas. It's still a weapon, just like a gun is. I enjoy the feel of it, does that mean I'm gonna go outside and cut people up? Probably not. So why do some kids with guns go outside and "protect" the crap out of everyone else?

But then again, I train under a qualified high-ranking instructer, in a controlled environment with many mature students and friends to guide me. You let some kid even collect guns, odds are without proper guidance and influence, he'll find some ammo and wonder how to put it inside.

Steve J
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 23:09
I love my 22.

http://phoenixophelia.com
Steve J, less, and less Controversial!
Megaton Cat
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Aug 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 30th Sep 2006 23:14
"I loves my gun....loves my gun"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z56pMCV2lCE

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-17 16:23:21
Your offset time is: 2024-11-17 16:23:21