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Geek Culture / "We" are doing this, "We" are doing that

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Redmotion
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 17:09
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I've noticed that, when posting on the forums,quite a few people are using "We" in their posts. Why is this? Are you working in a team?

If so, how did you get them together? Are they friends you already know, into games like you? Or people from across the internet you've never met (eg: through a team-building website)?

(I only really know one site that allows people to team up over the net to make games/mods and that's www.Moddb.com. )

BLACKMESA:SOURCE - mod for HL2 - Texture Artist
BIRTHSTAR:FRONTLINE - Texture & Environment Artist
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Dazzag
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 17:38
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Whether you have a team or not doesn't matter; it sounds better. Not as if you are going to be taken as seriously if you say *you* alone are coding, doing the graphics, sound, design, menus.. etc... etc...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Steve J
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 17:39
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I alone am doing everything, and I say it. On none gamedev forums people congrats me on doing work on my own

http://phoenixophelia.com
Steve J, less, and less Controversial!
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 18:06
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'We' seems more natural when referring to oneself professionally, because anyone that is any level of professional has other people working with them.

I use the term 'we' on my website. It's true because I have many talented professionals assisting me, but in the context it seems wrong, given the independent nature of my project. But, I don't want to say "I", because then I seem like a lone amateur.


Come see the WIP!
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Toby Quan
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 18:18
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It's the same when people say "Contact Us". You can go to a website that is clearly run by only one person, yet it says "Contact Us".
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 18:54
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I used to say "we" for quite a while, but it felt too stupid at one point. What's wrong with just being honest and stating that you're the only one responsible for your work? Atleast then people see you as an individual.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 18:57
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I think I almost always refer to myself as "I" and not "We" but I'm sure I have done it before. But if it was in reference to my site then "We" is ok, since it's owned by 4 people including myself. I think I have always taken as much possible credit on a game though.

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
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Jeku
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 19:04 Edited at: 29th Sep 2006 19:04
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I've been pointed out twice (thanks, Megaton ) about my site saying "we" everywhere, but sometimes it *is* a case of having more than one person creating a game. It doesn't always mean it's one lone dude trying to sound professional

And besides, if I was schizophrenic would it not be proper for me to say "we"?


http://www.codercafe.com - My blog
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Peter H
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 19:48 Edited at: 29th Sep 2006 19:49
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yeah, i use "We" on my website because on almost all the games i've made Flindiana has helped, and vice versa.

When i'm posting on forums though i say "i"... unless Flindiana has done a large part of the game then i use "we", (some games we practically make together and others are more solo).

but it's always funny to see a cube on a matrix wip and the poster is saying how "We" have decided to release the beta for our game for free (and you wonder why it took more than one person to make said game)

"We make the worst games in the universe..."
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 20:22
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Of all the things wrong in the world ... people worry about using we instead of I?

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Toby Quan
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 20:32
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Quote: "Of all the things wrong in the world ... people worry about using we instead of I?"


Yup!
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Redmotion
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Posted: 29th Sep 2006 22:46
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I was actually wondering if teaming up using Dark Basic Pro as a game dev platform (can't think of a faster one) was a viable thing to do - and thought people were using "We" because they were part of a team.

@ Lost in thought/Toby Quan - I'll ignore that comment.

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Toby Quan
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 00:16
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@Redmotion

In no way was my comment directed towards you. I think your post was certainly valid.
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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 00:32
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I say we because he's schizofrenic.

... who was that??

I have vague plans for World Domination
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 00:51
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Not all indie games are made by individuals, as Jeku pointed out. Some of us collect a group of our friends, chain them up in our basements, and whip them until they develop the stuff we need Our team has fourteen people in it, but in all honesty it's more like nine people who actually do stuff and five others who like to say they work in the game industry I'm lucky, I have a bunch of friends with applicable talents. If you can get a few friends to help you out, it's always cool. Find people who have skill related to art, coding, etc. and put them to work

One bit of advice: get people to sign contracts. It probably sounds stupid to a lot of you, but that's probably because you haven't tried to work in a team. The first team we tried to put together ("we" being me and my friend Colin) consisted of four people and it dissipitated rather quickly because they lost interest. Getting your team to sign a contract that states they'll do the work assigned to them in a set (reasonable) period of time if you'll pay them (n) is a good way to make people realize you're serious about/ dedicated to the endeavor. Make sure you let them know exactly what you're doing on the project, too... saying "oh, I'm the designer" is basically a way of saying "oh, you'll do all of the work and earn less money than my lazy ***." And assign MEANINGFUL titles! I don't mean you should name one of your friends the secretary of treasury or something else that sounds cool but doesn't mean anything... I mean, if you have two or three people doing 3D models, name one of them the lead modeler so the other two have someone to ask questions to. Trust me, it simplifies things dramatically

lol I sound all-knowledgable but I'm not We worked our butts off on a huge FPS game, made some serious progress, and then got stumped and we're doing 2D games now, so don't take what I'm saying as the "final word" or anything lol. But I do have a lot of experience in managing and getting people organized to do stuff, so that's my qualification for opening my mouth on the subject anyway, hope it helps hehe.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 00:59
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And some of us just prefer talking about our large personal team of inudstry vets under our command, working away on a secret project no one gets to see.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 01:15
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I *never* said they were industry vets, I said they're friends, big difference there And there's a reason why that project is secret, and if we ever finish it, (well, if we ever get back to working on it) you'll say "oh, that's why he was so protective of it!" I can very arrogantly state that it's more groundbreaking than an indonesian earthquake and that's all you'll know about it until it's done, lol (okay, it's not that groundbreaking, but it sure is cool saying it is ). The best part is, I get to keep it a secret even longer now because we've decided to do some 2D games until we can afford to get that game back underway. Secrets are cool


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Redmotion
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 01:22
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@Toby - no worries

Quote: "One bit of advice: get people to sign contracts"
- Yeah, I agree with that, I signed an NDA for the Black Mesa: Source mod, they got the whole team to sign it. Though, I'm not sure what powers you'd have if they ran off with it.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 01:22
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Since we're pals to the end, what you say I be the first one to receive a copy of this in the mail when it's done eh? Waddya say.



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Matt Rock
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 01:33
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sure, if you'll pay for it lol In all seriousness though, I was planning on asking you, Jeku, Cash, and Ben to test it's beta when/ if it gets to that point so I could get some "community input" from people that I know for a fact would be blatently honest with me No offense to anyone else lol. I might do that with Capital Punishment when it's done, too, and then you'll get your name in the credits, YIPPEE!!!

Quote: "Yeah, I agree with that, I signed an NDA for the Black Mesa: Source mod, they got the whole team to sign it"

Ugh, NDA's. I'm always worried about wording those properly for that same reason.

An NDA for those of you who don't know is a "non-disclosure agreement," also called a non-disclosure contract. Basically it states that a member of your team isn't allowed to tell others about your project or the ideas involved, or release portions of assets (media) to others, or in any other way jeaprodize the privacy of the project. There's hard as heck to word (for me anyway) and although I've never had to enforce one, I can't assume they'd be very easy to enforce. You basically have to prove that someone told someone else something you didn't want them to say yuck.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Zerk
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 03:10 Edited at: 30th Sep 2006 03:10
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Saying "we" if your not a team and just an individual, sounds a bit insecure. Unless you have multiple personalities.

I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do. ~Hal-9000
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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 03:28
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Exactly, but some people say it sounds more proffesional and corporate - but you're pretty much bullsh*ting people, even if you don't intend to.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 05:02
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I can see how it sounds more professional, I think people are probably less likely to buy your product if they know it's just one person making it, because then, whose there to check quality? Then again, lots of things with huge teams have been released that totally sucked: Bonfire of the Vanities, the E! television station, N'Sync, the entire clothing line at The Gap, MTV since 1993, the rep... nope, can't say that one, against the aup... "New Coke," the 3D0, you get the idea


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 05:10
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I dunno. If the person presents himself as an honest individual, I'll buy whatever he has. If the site says "we" all over the place, with no evidence of an actual soul running the place, it's alot more dodgy. That's why people are now including more Blogs even on their proffesional site (It's even encouraged by Mircosoft for it's employees) so all visitors can have a glimpse into the personality of the author.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 05:39
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I can see that, if a single individual has a lot of personality and reflects his or her talents well, it would probably encourage people to buy their product(s). I think there's a fine line between professionalism and showing off your personality though. Like, if you go into off-topic stuff a lot on your site, that wouldn't be cool.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 05:51 Edited at: 30th Sep 2006 05:52
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Quote: "Like, if you go into off-topic stuff a lot on your site, that wouldn't be cool.
"


But the thing is, so many proffesionals nowadays do. (Especially in the media/design industry) You can literaly learn about the quality of a person's character by reading through their Blog. It's all about what you write. Many post well-written experiences and thoughts that really show empoyers that "this guy's got a brain and he knows his sh*t".

There's nothing wrong with this in my opinion, and I hope to do it more often as I completly neglect my Blog. Obviously if you write about how high you got the other night with your b*tches or about that awsome nap you feel like taking, then don't bother.

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Jeku
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 07:41
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Pretty much every job in this industry will require you to sign an NDA--- even for a lowly waged job like quality assurance tester. To those who can't keep a secret, an NDA is a very scary document


http://www.codercafe.com - My blog
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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 14:42
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The NDA is fine, it's the other parts of contracts that usually send a shiver down my spine...

Everything thou makest, shall belong to the mother-company...
Thou shall not ownest thy own ideas...
Thou willst not work on anything similar for X years after you leave the mother-company...

Ok, so I jest, but they're not that far off. It saddens me that even if I write poetry or bake a cake, it offcially belongs to my parent company. I understand where it comes from, and they don't want employees running off with their tech, but there's a line somewhere. NDA's are fine - I can keep secrets. It's my own ideas I have trouble with.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 15:20
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maybe some singular coders:

have multiple personality disorder
have joined the collective
take orders from their pets

hence the term "we"

?

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 19:08
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I don't hate the NDA itself, I just hate trying to write them. Other contracts, that I've dealt with anyway, are far easier to write, for me anyway.

Quote: "Thou willst not work on anything similar for X years after you leave the mother-company..."

I will never, ever, ever make someone sign a contract that states that. I mean, are the methodologies THAT unique that you don't want some other company to find them? ugh, what companies do that so I never apply for jobs with them hehe.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Jeku
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Posted: 30th Sep 2006 22:18
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Quote: "Thou willst not work on anything similar for X years after you leave the mother-company..."


Yah, that was in the NDA I'm currently under. Fortunately I haven't seen too many examples of this kind of thing being brought to court, aside from EA & Ubisoft constantly suing each other over exec stealing in Montreal.


http://www.codercafe.com - My blog
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 1st Oct 2006 00:02
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I dunno, the phrase "under the thumb" takes on a whole new meaning with that in a contract. I'd heard of people signing that sort of stuff, but didn't believe it until now. It's insane. If my company gets big enough where I can afford to pay you your salary you should come to work for me instead, hehe.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2006 12:44
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Quote: " was planning on asking you, Jeku, Cash, and Ben to test it's beta when/ if it gets to that point so I could get some "community input" from people that I know for a fact would be blatently honest with me "


I'd be happy to Matt. Something else though - what part of the FPS stumped you? Shoot me an e-mail, maybe I can unstump you.

Like I've said before, lots of very talented people are helping me with Geisha House. I've not, nor will I on this project, bother with things like contracts or NDAs. Both cost money and are suitable only when money is involved.

My thought is that when someone contributes something to the project, I'm only acquiring the rights to distribute it with the game. They still own the copyright. They can use the same media in their own game or sell the media to other people. Even if it is sold to 1000 people, my game will be finished first so no harm is done, and it is more worthwhile to the person that made the media.

I'm also very tight lipped about the storyline, so there's really no risk of anything getting out. I just think that being too rigid in an indie project will just cause people not to help you.


Come see the WIP!
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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2006 18:30
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Quote: "I just think that being too rigid in an indie project will just cause people not to help you."


I kinda agree. The problem is with "what kind of people can you get to help you in a free project". I found that everyone, no exception, that ever showed interest in helping me in a project, flaked off the very minute they were asked to actually DO anything.

I've started 2 projects where clearly could not do on my own, everyone I talked to loved the idea, most of them offered to help, but when it's time to put the hand to the plow they all have soccer practise, family holidays, deadlines at work etc etc

My current project, much like yours is VERY dependent on the story as it's an "mystery" adventure. After the first guy dropped off I decided not to let anyone in the story when I next look for someone until they sign an NDA and contribute something to the project.

I know this is going to make the search for "partners in crime" even harder, but I can't risk my story being sold to Dan Brown.

I have vague plans for World Domination
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2006 18:55
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Well, the key here is not to start a project that you can't finish on your own, because other people won't do the work for you.

Geisha House is certainly a project that I can finish on my own. However, it will be better for the contributions that have and will be made. I was using a lot of placeholder (copyrighted) media since it was going to be a free game, but when I got the commercial deal I shifted gears and got help creating original media.

Quote: "I found that everyone, no exception, that ever showed interest in helping me in a project, flaked off the very minute they were asked to actually DO anything."

I've found that not to be the case. I guess it depends on what you're asking people to do. The bottom line is that you'll have to do 90% of the work yourself. Until you can pay people, that part will not change. The standard team request will never work. You have to be realistic about the amount of help that you can get, and use that to its maximum benefit to the project.


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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2006 19:05 Edited at: 2nd Oct 2006 19:05
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Quote: "I guess it depends on what you're asking people to do."


I understand this, and I never take the position of ordering people around while I only pound the drums: I do expect to do the brunt of the work. I ask people in as co-creators, co-owners and, if it ever gets to that, co-earners.

But, and this may be just my bad luck, they give up on the first thing you ask them to do WHATEVER THAT IS. Design a logo? "I quit". Model a guy? "I quit". Do the networking library since that's what you like anyway? "I quit". (These are ACTUAL examples)

Unfortunately a few friends that tried to do the same also found people giving up on them. So this is either a chronic problem with Portuguese people, which I am ready to accept may be the case, or you are the exception...

I have vague plans for World Domination
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2006 19:16 Edited at: 2nd Oct 2006 19:17
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Man, it sounds like design time friction

I doubt that it has anything to do with nationality, or any kind of special exceptions to the rule. I really think that it's just the level of completion of the project, plus the commercial deal.

My initial plan was to do the game myself, then start a second game with commercial aspirations. That way, the engine is essentially complete, which is the part that sinks 99% of all team requests that actually get off the ground. Everything really just got fast tracked. I don't think that a game idea can hold a team together from concept stage, I think that people need some substantial content to see to really get interested.

In any event, I've studied a lot of team requests. The major malfunction is a competent programmer / leader. The programming is the worst part of the job (not the hardest, just the worst in my opinion). Typically, a project leader will attempt to allocate programming jobs to the programmers. This is a problem because the programmers are expected to do so much work and get only a tiny bit of credit. Also, the programmers are seldom qualified for such a job.

I figured if I were project leader and lead (only) programmer I couldn't go wrong. I haven't asked anyone else to do a single bit of coding. All of my contributions of code have come from Code Snippets and DBP Plugins (all credited).

It's not perfect, and it can be slow at times, but I think it's worked out pretty well.


Come see the WIP!
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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2006 19:46
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Quote: "I figured if I were project leader and lead (only) programmer I couldn't go wrong."


That's me too.

Much like yourself, I am currently in the frame of mind of being the sole coder pretty much all the way through. Unfortunately I'm only a midly capable artist (=hack) so, at some stage, I will need a partner there. I wish I could find the right person for the job earlier on so we could bounce ideas and considerations regarding visual style et al but I guess I'll have to be pacient on that area too.

And, please, do not discount the lack of enpreneurship of Portuguese people. It's a nacional sport over here...

I have vague plans for World Domination
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Dazzag
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Quote: "Everything thou makest, shall belong to the mother-company...
Thou shall not ownest thy own ideas...
Thou willst not work on anything similar for X years after you leave the mother-company"
Yep. But there is no way in hell this kind of stuff (I have the same thing in my contract) would hold up in court. Especially if the idea is completely foreign to what you work on and in a completely different language. Hell, I brought my knowledge of VB and Access/Oracle to create their MIS systems out of nothing (only help was extremely expensive but easyish to learn Cognos tool courses), yet they would argue anything I create would belong to them. Bloody cheeky if you ask me.

And as for the standing up in court, before we got bought out by a company in Slough (think of us like the *other* division that was merged in the program "the office", with *lots* of similarities) there was a bloke who left the company for an almost identical job. It was the same language, and the system is actually based (line for line) on the code from an original company that both companies came from (apparently in some cases copied line for line from reams and reams of listing paper). Anyways, our company invoked the rule in our contract that stated that you cannot work for a competitor (which they surely were) or something similar until something like 6 months or a year had gone by after you left. Court case ensued where the bloke stayed at home playing games for most of 6 months or so. In the end the judge agreed with our company, but said why 6 months/year? Why not 2 months. Or 2 years? How could we justify it. We couldn't and we lost. He moved to the new company and recieved a load of money in compensation. He then left soon after. Apparently it is a land mark case in the UK. We even had BBC camera filming us as we came back from lunch

Rather amusingly we still have this rule in our contracts, something like 9 years later. Morons. Same people who basically, when we were took over, tried to make the women on pregnancy leave redundant. Quickly revoked when they found it was illegal (which we all knew). Honestly, these people get paid *tonnes* and they are thick as ****. Makes my blood boil. Oh, and they tried to get the only full time C programmer left in the company redundant at the same time. Soon realised their mistake once they needed a new comms program written. Cap in hand is a good phrase for that one....

Grrrr. Mad now. Think of the nice places... think of the rabbits.... nice rabbits.......

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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