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Geek Culture / Visual C# and XNA - Game Studio

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 20th Oct 2006 01:07
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I saw an article in my Game Informer about a new tool set based on C# called XNA. It's really cool and yields some sweet results. It is said that with a team of talented people you could even use XNA to make a Gears Of War game. There is no upper limit on this software and you can use it to make 2D or 3D games.

I've been trying it out the last few days and its AMAZING. I would recommend it to anyone trying to break out of Dark Basic (I can hear everyone yelling blashemy now ) and who wants to try something a little more professional. Note I am not taking anything away from Dark Basic. I love Dark Basic Professional just as well. It's a great environment to break out into the Indie Dev world.

And here's the sweetest part of all. You can actually use this language to program games for the XBOX 360!!! Need I talk about the potential of this? How cool is that!?

Anyway, check it out at these links:

XNA Home - http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/XNA/
XNA FAQ - http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/xna/faq/
XNA Download (Requires Visual C# 2005 Express Edition) - http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/XNA/gse/
Visual C# Express 2005 - http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/visualcsharp/

On a side note DirectX has a new update now. The latest one is the October 2006 SDK. Here's the link - http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/sdk/

Hope you all enjoy!
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Cian Rice
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Posted: 20th Oct 2006 01:33
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Has already been a thread on this about a month ago, you could've just bumped instead of making a new one... although it would've just been better to do neither...

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 20th Oct 2006 02:00
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Well I guess that was a month ago then . Thanks for the heads up though . Although I do see this post being different slightly different from that one. More has happened since then anyway.

So, since, as the very observent Anime Blood said, it's been about a month. I read that some of you had downloaded it and were messing around with it in september. Have any of your programs turned into bigger projects? Whats your take on it after a month of using it? Anyone have anything to showcase?
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Cian Rice
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Posted: 20th Oct 2006 02:12
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Well... I've decided that I will want to develop for it when I have the time to sit down and learn the SDK some more.

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White knight
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Posted: 20th Oct 2006 03:54
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i use xna beta and it is nice also got mechwarrior 2 sourcecode which uses features from xna
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 20th Oct 2006 04:17
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I think the success of XNA will fall alot on how good the devoping for the XBOX 360 is. I might actually buy a 360 just for that (I'm also thinking about trading my PSP for DS...).

I have to say, I am fairly impressed with Microsoft on this. And the documentation that comes standard with it is superb as well.
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White knight
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Posted: 20th Oct 2006 07:12
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i think microsoft is tring to get hobbiest in xbox developing to make more money not only on the x-box but also with subscriptions
from what they say you must subscribe b4 you can make any acualy games that run on the x-box 360
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Raven
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Posted: 20th Oct 2006 09:50
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Yeah, XNA Framework requires a subscriber account to play games. Although they are releasing a commerical version.

Useful, and good for getting people in to .NET Game Development.
Wouldn't mind seeing Managed DirectX being Mono .NET Compatible.

Intel Pentium-D 2.8GHz, 512MB DDR2 433, Ati Radeon X1600 Pro 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista RC1 / XP Professional SP2
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 20th Oct 2006 14:58
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yesa, and extend the xna system to all .net langs, not just c#

Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 20th Oct 2006 23:12
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Even if they are trying to make more money off of our games I say why not? I mean how cool is it to say that you've made a game for the 360? Plus you don't have to pay for it if you just want to do it on PC. I think thats fair enough. What console can you develop for free for? And does it offer a tool suite such as C# and XNA? My opinion I guess.

I would like to see it extend to other .net languages as well. Too bad dark basic can't utilize it.
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Kentaree
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Posted: 20th Oct 2006 23:49
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@CR: Maybe you should learn to use a decent language then instead of VB.NET

Nephin Games
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VR2
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Posted: 21st Oct 2006 03:37 Edited at: 21st Oct 2006 03:42
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I played around with XNA at the beginning of September but stopped, from memory, due to a couple of factors :

1) Time (as ever)
2) The current beta release seems to be missing all of what used to be the D3DX library, thu sif you want 3D then its down to editing in vertices yourself or come up with some propriatory model loading system (of which there were loads around already).
3) The 3D performance I got using the loop example from the template was not good, not as fast as MDX 1.1 I'd used previously.
4) They've swapped to RH format, no biggie but why?
5) Lacking support for Fixed Function Pipeline? Maybe it was just me but lighting didn't seem to be working using the FF pipeline and I got a funny feeling that DX10 will ONLY support shaders for rendering?
6) I wanted to use ODE.NET and that was for 1.1 (although someone had taken it and hacked it into .NET 2 - but I had problems wth it) and I didn't want to mess about with a dependancy on TWO versions of the .NET framework.

So I went back to the (now obsolete) Managed DirectX 1.1 for my little car demo project (i was feeling left out of Dark Physics and wanted to play ).

Having said all of that, even from the brief glimpse I saw, the potential of XNA, the stated goals etc, are just amazing. Sure it's cut down (and slow?) right now but it's great that they've done this and given it to the indies for first dibbs. I saw others making nice little 2D games (2D is much better supported right now).

The 360 stuff is great but I wouldn't get fixated on that. The fact that M$ are giving you the best IDE ever, the C# programming language, Managed DX 2 (and DX native of course), together with a pre built "engine", the "Microsoft.Xna.Framework.Game" class that you can just subclass to get up and running ASAP is amazing.

I've long been a huge fan of the Express version IDE's (recently preferring the FREE Web Express over the mighty DreamWeaver 8 - its that good!!!). They are so good that I keep asking myself "where's the catch?". So far i've not found it.

Basically its Managed DirectX 2 on steroids and 1.1 was great so I expect great things from this. And the fact that you don't have to pay a single penny for any of it. Its industry standard (in the making), its C#, its from the makers of the XBOX, and it's free. What's not to like?


@Kentaree, I was gonna say something very similar but deleted as I didn't want to upset anyone. But seriously, I don't know why anyone would want to use VB.NET over C#. I tried to go from VB6 to VB.NET but found it all seemed messed up and very "wordy" and OTT feeling. C# felt more like C++ but with far cleaner syntax and logical-ness. Also there are some things C# can do that VB cannot (I think) like unsafe code segments and pointer use, which make it a much better "game fit"? Also C# has a similar feel to Javascript, so if you do web dev (and I think @CR does) then again, you get a nice synergy there. Just my tuppence...
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Raven
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Posted: 21st Oct 2006 10:40
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Quote: "2) The current beta release seems to be missing all of what used to be the D3DX library, thu sif you want 3D then its down to editing in vertices yourself or come up with some propriatory model loading system (of which there were loads around already)."


Perhaps because Direct3D eXtensions are not supported by the Xbox 360. Besides they haven't dropped all support, as if you'd bothered to take the time they've added some aspects to the Graphics namespace.

Quote: "3) The 3D performance I got using the loop example from the template was not good, not as fast as MDX 1.1 I'd used previously."


Can't say I've exeprienced the same performance difference. XNA and MDX 2.0 performed identically, and both perform quicker than MDX 1.1

Quote: "4) They've swapped to RH format, no biggie but why?"


Come again? As all DirectX since 8.0, it supports both RH and LH. All depends on what you set.

Quote: "5) Lacking support for Fixed Function Pipeline? Maybe it was just me but lighting didn't seem to be working using the FF pipeline and I got a funny feeling that DX10 will ONLY support shaders for rendering?"


You realise that the Fixed Function Pipeline was created to provide early support for shaders. They're still accessible through Shader format. XNA and DX10 can both render without the need for Shader Matrials.

Quote: "6) I wanted to use ODE.NET and that was for 1.1 (although someone had taken it and hacked it into .NET 2 - but I had problems wth it) and I didn't want to mess about with a dependancy on TWO versions of the .NET framework."


ODE .NET isn't recompiled to pure managed code. It still uses the main ODE library in native code. So there's no way to *actually* use it on anything other than the Windows platform.

There are very few Managed libraries right now, specifically for games development.

Intel Pentium-D 2.8GHz, 512MB DDR2 433, Ati Radeon X1600 Pro 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista RC1 / XP Professional SP2
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VR2
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2006 02:04
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Quote: "if you'd bothered to take the time they've added some aspects to the Graphics namespace."


My time is severely limited these days, it was not that I couldn't be bothered, just a matter of priorities. I was simply relaying my experiences on to the poster of this thread.

Quote: "Can't say I've exeprienced the same performance difference."


Well good for you...I was simply relaying my experiences on to the poster of this thread.

Quote: "Come again? As all DirectX since 8.0, it supports both RH and LH. All depends on what you set.
"


I was talking about the Matrix class in XNA. As stated on this page...
http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/xna/migration/

there is "No XNA Framework equivalent" to the LH matrix math (from what used to be D3DX). Again, this is a major difference with previous versions and something to be aware of. I was simply relaying my experiences on to the poster of this thread.

Quote: "You realise that the Fixed Function Pipeline was created to provide early support for shaders. They're still accessible through Shader format."


Well that's as maybe but its a big change from previous versions where you can render without shaders. I was simply relaying my experiences on to the poster of this thread.

Quote: "ODE .NET isn't recompiled to pure managed code. It still uses the main ODE library in native code. So there's no way to *actually* use it on anything other than the Windows platform.
"


Did I say that it did? No, I did not. Did I say that I *actually* wanted to create a program for anythying other than windows? No, I did not.
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2006 02:41
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Thanks for all the "relaying of experiences" guys. lol. It has really helped out.
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Raven
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2006 10:06
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You can render without Shaders, but it's quite limiting graphics as there are no blend modes without them.

Although I'm a little confused. If you don't want to have multi-platform comptibility, why not just use Managed DX 1.1/2.0 using DXUT? It's just as simple to integrate and use as XNA Framework.

Intel Pentium-D 2.8GHz, 512MB DDR2 433, Ati Radeon X1600 Pro 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista RC1 / XP Professional SP2
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VR2
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2006 21:32
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Happy to oblige Sid, hope it was somewhat useful.

And Raven,
Quote: " If you don't want to have multi-platform comptibility, why not just use Managed DX 1.1/2.0 using DXUT?"


because I wanted to check out XNA. Simple as.

As I said, I didn't get too far with XNA and DID end up going back to MDX 1.1 since I felt XNA wasn't really upto it yet (and MDX 2 is what is in XNA, anything else will never go further than Beta so is pointeless to investigate).
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Evil Booger
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Posted: 24th Oct 2006 04:05
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Quote: "Q: Can I use the XNA Game Studio Express or XNA Framework to build a commercial Xbox 360 game?
A: XNA Game Studio Express will enable you to create Windows and now Xbox 360 console games much more easily. These games are limited to non-commercial scenarios for 360 titles created with XNA Game Studio Express. However, XNA Game Studio Express may be used to create commercial games which target Windows. We will be releasing XNA Game Studio Professional next spring which will allow developers to create commercial games for Xbox addition to Windows.
"


So does that mean you can't make a game for xbox 360? only scenarios for other games?

boogers will take over the world
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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 24th Oct 2006 04:13
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I think it's talking about how you don't burn the games to a CD/DVD and play them on your 360 right now, you network it to your 360 and upload it. Maybe you'll be able to burn the CD/DVD in the future?
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Vickie
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Posted: 27th Oct 2006 02:35
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Hi Sid Sinister,
I have been all over this the day it came out. I think there is a
lot of opportunity here for people that really want to get seen
and their game piped out to hundreds of players!

always~
Vickie

~Get in the Game~
http://www.caligari.com/gamespace/career_mmorpg01.asp
My Profile > http://www.caligari.com/news/news_june2006/cpcp3.html
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