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Geek Culture / A Global Language?

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 07:23
Hey,
Sorry if this is against the AUP for whatever reason, if so feel free to lock it mods and my apologies . So, I've been thinking, and I'm curious to know what others think...do you think we should have a global language? If so which language?

I think that we should have a global language (but I'm sure many will disagree), but not necessarily English. In fact, not any existing language at all, I think that the world should create one. It would not be naturally poetic like I hear Chinese and Japanese are (I may be wrong), or have as many strange rules and exceptions as Latin-based languages would. For example, why, instead of having a different word for the past tense of so many english words, just add an suffix or prefix to the original word? For example, I go. I went. Why not add an ed to everything? I goed. I seed. I runed. It sounds stupid, but it wouldn't if we spoke that way. Then the same would be for future tense, and another for the equivalent of -ing ending. Also I know in Spanish (and French, and I'm presuming other Latin-based languages), they use two past tenses, depending on the situation, the imperfect and regular past tense, but it's really unneccessary. Just things like that wouldn't be put in the language. It would be best if it was naturally simplistic, but with skill, it could be made more "poetic" (but I still think it's unneccessary to have so many words that mean almost the same thing, for example: mad...angry, furious, enraged, etc. I know each carries seperate connotations, but again, why not just add an ending to emphasize or down-play a word? Anyways, those are just my thoughts, what do you think?

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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 07:29 Edited at: 4th Nov 2006 07:36
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_constructed_languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto

Quote: "I know in Spanish (and French, and I'm presuming other Latin-based languages), they use two past tenses, depending on the situation, the imperfect and regular past tense, but it's really unneccessary"

The imperfect and "regular"(not sure whether you mean present perfect or simple past) are both necessary to have. Ironic to your statement, in French both tenses are said the same anyway (imperfect and simple past).

Imperfect = I was walking.
Simple past = I walked.
Present Perfect = I have walked.

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Chris K
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 10:17
Unfortunately, people love languages for their perculiarities (where's my speck checker FF??), and their history.

Also, people love the variety of different languages, and the different ways of writing (some French literature, for example, doesn't work as well in English, and vica versa).

So while it would be useful to have a unified language, it isn't worth losing the other languages.

A more sensible solution would be a translator machine that works in real time. I saw an article recently where they had apparantly got close... (not 100% real time because it has to wait to make sure it knows what you're saying)

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
El Goorf
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 10:45
i simply doubt it would work. after a couple of generations, dialects will form, people will start using different words for things in different places, just in the same way the liverpudlians and cockneys use different words for things, even though they both speak english. eventually these diallects and accents become new languages. europes a good example of this. the romans came, tought everyone latin, 2 millenia later, through this effect of diallect, english is a different language to italian. this also goes with the fact that we still use words we used before the romans because they're more convenient to pronounce (for example, the europeans can't pronounce "th" and most countries pronounce J a different way, and would need to train to do so all together.

besides, i like language diversity, i think its a very english and american thing to have a desire for a single language, simply because we're too lazy (and arrogant) to be bothered to learn other languages.

just like learning instruments, learning languages trains your mind to think more openly and in a structured way when problem solving.

languages are also a major part of national identity, its one of the few things we have left in a multicultural world that says who we are.
indi
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 11:52
i guess that also applies to australian slang.
2 bloody right it does cobber.
really tho we hardly speak like that. its more a country thing.

Chris K
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 12:15
But Yorkshire people DO actually speak like this:

Aye 'up gunna gote'p dun ha-whey eeep nan out p't may.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Fallout
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 12:22
I think, rather than coming up with a new language, certian languages should be standardized and made as essential learning in school. Typically we have french, german and spanish as our main secondary school languages (at least in my day! I don't know now). I think the teaching of foriegn languages should start earlier and be made a more fundamental part of school. We're very poor on foriegn languages in this country at school level. I got an 'A' in my German GCSE yet can't really communicate with any German people. It might be that secondary school language education is rubbish and doesnt get you anywhere as it is in this country.

I think all countries should keep their own languages and dialects, but make it a higher priority to learn a small subset of other languages, such as English and Spanish. French is one that we keep flogging because we're next to France, but it's not spoken that widely. I know Mandarin is spoken by loads but I think only in China. Bastards. Trust them to have so many people and therefore make the languages of one country a main player. A large part of the developed world does a really good job at learning English though ... just look at the Internet. A lot of people struggle with it, but they are learning it. I'd like to see more English speakers learn a foriegn language. I regret not taking my German to the next level. In hindsight, I would've like to have done a German A level, just so I could travel to Germany and feel able to communicate. I'm not the sort of person that wants to travel to a foriegn country and not be able to talk to people, because I want to check out the country and not just the tourist hot spots.

Then again, what about African, Asian .... Indian languages. Hindi etc. Mind you, Indians do a great job at learning English and other foriegn languages. Part of me thinks everyone else should just learn English as their second language sinse it's dominant on really important communication mediums such as this, but even then, I think it's important for English speakers to pull their finger out and learn a foriegn language, and I would never want English to take over as the 1st language in foriegn countries.


Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 12:32 Edited at: 4th Nov 2006 12:33
El Goorf
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 13:47 Edited at: 4th Nov 2006 13:47
yeh about the schools thing, i'd like to see more powerful languages being taught, like chinese, russian and arabic, i mean lets face it, europe's been a dying power since WW2, other continents is where the action is now.
Lost in Thought
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 14:01
Everyone in the world should speak and read/write redneck. There are no complex rules and situations to follow. Every letter has one sound and every combination of letters has the same sound no matter the situation. Tis a perfect language.

The stupidest thing in the world is the English language. There are way too many stupid rules to follow. If you are going to give a sequence of letters a sound then let it be forever that sound no matter what comes before or after it.

Take these words for instance:

rough
through
trough

the ough has a different sound for all of them. Insanity I tell you. In redneck that would be:

row
throw
trow

notice how they all sound alike now

Or we would have made spellings that actually read like they are said such as:

ruff
thru
troff

adr
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 14:06 Edited at: 4th Nov 2006 14:07
I agree with Fallout. Other countries start learning foreign languages as early as 4 or 5. I'm ashamed to be English when I'm on holiday and I see someone saying very slowly "I want an Ice-Cream".

I also agree with LIT that English is stupid. A good example is "Good Food". Why on earth, given that they have the same formation, are those two words pronounced differently?

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Kentaree
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 14:09
How are "good" and "food" pronounced differently?

adr
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 14:10 Edited at: 4th Nov 2006 14:12
well, the "double o" is said differently; in food it's "oooh" like at a fireworks display. In "good" it's a short "uh", like when you're trying to lift something

It'd be pronounced "Gudd Fudd", or "Gude Fude" if it was consistent.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 14:13
I'm lazy, make everybody else learn English Nah, I don't there should be a global language. When you move to a new country you throw yourself into a new culture, where you learn new things and language is one of the attributes to a culture, even if you moved to Australia you'd have to pick up some dialect of English, its part of the experience of being in a new place, as for dealing with foreigners here, its not too hard, as there is body language that is of use and the semantics are all the same, really for a foreigner to get by they'd need to learn the number system, where I live we have a lot of foreign people, mostly Polish and the Chinese and Filipinos are increasing and bringing their awesome Basketball skills to beat some of us with. But it is nice for them to know the language first, but they do fine over here with minimal knowledge, when Edio joined our school (AKA Kai, his Chinese name) he didn't speak much English, with help he managed to do well, I helped him with his science and ICT work, helping him with spelling and grammar and in turn me learning Chinese insults.

I think we should keep our languages and let them develop, we are able to live well in different cultures, its best not to take back some people sense of identity and culture by making one whole language, and there's the whole issue what the language would be, I mean if we were to make one derived from Latinate or Germanic origins, then it wouldn't be fair to more eastern countries, especially with pronunciation, if we were to use a more Chinese based system, would it still be fair? Same for African based languages, where there is a use of clicks, for a universal language to be made, it would have to be something universally applicable, which wouldn't bias to a certain area.

Miguel Melo
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 14:15
And there it is: Portuguese as the third most widely spoken Western language. So, everyone... get cracking on it!

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 14:17
At least portuguese has symbols over the letters to show the different sounds. It has my vote if Redneck doesn't win.

Tinkergirl
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 14:23
Quote: ""Good Food""


Um, I do pronounce those with the same -ood sound. Kind of like "gude fude".

The English language is so 'messed up' becuase it's a living language - over the centuries it's evolved from and with many other languages, borrowing words and phrases as it they were going out of fashion. The number of French and German inspired words is astonishing, and probably a source of some of the craziness we see.

If, however, you'd rather write phonetic English, you should perhaps consider US English, "color" etc. I think I posted before about the American who about 100 years ago tried to 'fix' English in America - encouraging the use of "tung" for "tongue" etc. Some of it caught on (color) and some didn't.

Give it another couple of hundred years and the fight for languages will probably be over by then anyway. Media is so international now that borrowed words are being eaten up by various languages so fast that eventually I believe there will be a hodgepodge of several languages anyway - with the only people learning the 'old' languages being historians. I mean, just look at things like Latin and Shakespear's English - just a few hundred or thousand years ago, and already they are all but incomprehensible parents to our current language.

"Kareoke"
"Boulevard"
"Lager"

All loanwords from other languages. English is the absorber of words

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 14:40
adr: You sure you're not mashing UK/American folks together?

adr
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 14:51
Quote: "I do pronounce those with the same -ood sound. Kind of like "gude fude"."

Are you Scottish, by any chance? Because it does reminds me of a former work colleague.

Quote: "The English language is so 'messed up' becuase it's a living language"

And for a brief period in time, the UK was up for grabs by pretty much everyone. My wife would be better at the details, but I'm pretty sure we had the Scandinavian living in Yorkshire, the Normans living in the rest of England, Celtics in Scotland. This land was Europe's bitch. Imperial rule only started much later ...

Quote: "You sure you're not mashing UK/American folks together"

With which comment? I tend to blather a fair bit so you're gonna have to narrow it down for me.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 15:13
Quote: "A good example is "Good Food". Why on earth, given that they have the same formation, are those two words pronounced differently?"

Different origins? I think one thing people forget is that the rules were made up after the language, not the other way around.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 15:17
Quote: ""Kareoke"
"Boulevard"
"Lager"

All loanwords from other languages. English is the absorber of words"


Yup, English is one of the biggest thieves in the world (English...thieves, why I never!) Our country has been invaded so much in History that a lot of the language comes from other countries, such from Vikings, Saxons, Normans, Romans, Americans, Aliens and so on, its mostly a mix of Germanic and Latinate words, but we still keep getting new words from other languages, pssh why don't we just call a restaurant a Food Hole instead of being all French about it

David R
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 15:34 Edited at: 4th Nov 2006 15:38
Quote: "The English language is so 'messed up' becuase it's a living language"


Which is good, because if a language isn't changing, it is dead

Quote: "Our country has been invaded so much in History "

There are only 3 as far as I can see; Romans Saxons and Normans. William the Conqueror was the last. Not much compared to the rest of the world really...

David R
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 15:36 Edited at: 4th Nov 2006 15:36
[Stupid forum decided to post twice]

Peter H
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 15:41
if we switch to any one current language it should be mandarin chinese, more people speak it than anything else, so there would be less people that have to learn a new language...

but then again, maybe it should be english, because all us americans are too dumb to learn anything as complicated as chinese

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 16:23
What if we just all kept our current languages, but created a global second language for everyone to learn? It would help with international economy, diplomacy, and relations.
Quote: "The imperfect and "regular"(not sure whether you mean present perfect or simple past) are both necessary to have. Ironic to your statement, in French both tenses are said the same anyway (imperfect and simple past).

Imperfect = I was walking.
Simple past = I walked.
Present Perfect = I have walked."

I was talking about Imperfect and simple past (or preterite, as it's called in spanish) . In spanish they are said different, I was walking (or I walked sometimes): "Caminaba", I walked: "Camine" (with an accent on the e, don't know how to do accents on computers) those are what each of those mean, except imperfect can also mean "I walked", depending on the situation. I'm not just talking about that (or just European languages either, it's just easier for me to point them out because English is natural to me, so it's harder to notice the rules ), but another example would be the "subjunctive". Used for saying something like: "I want you to eat". In spanish they say: "Yo quiero que comas". Translated directly: I want that you eat (with eat being in a different form, normally "you eat" is "comes", but it is conjugated differently because its a different form of the word. Things like those just seem uneccesary to me, and make languages more complicated .

I also think that English (including American's) should learn foreign languages earlier, like other countries learn English, but the problem is: there's so many. English has become a nearly global language among develped countries, so if you know it, you can communicate with a majority of people in any developed country across the globe. With any other language however: Spanish, French, German, Russian, Mandarin, Italian, they are all unique to only a few countries, none of which are really considered "world superpowers" (no offense ).

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David R
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 16:29
Problem is, with a global language, is that in order to learn it, you need to be able to understand what the words mean in your own (original) language (unless taught as a first language)

Oddmind
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 16:32
Its called a lingua Franca, (sorry if someones already mentioned this)
there are some between several countries (like spanglish) but I dont think theres a need for one language...

Aside from that, everyone in the world should speak only english.

kidding...

formerly KrazyJimmy

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 16:34
Quote: "Problem is, with a global language, is that in order to learn it, you need to be able to understand what the words mean in your own (original) language (unless taught as a first language)"

But that's why I said what about the entire world learning it as a second language and keeping their first language ?

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David R
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 16:35
But if you're going to go through all the trouble to explain the meanings of words and how they fit into this new language, then you may as well teach an already existent one; e.g. English

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 16:38
But the point is that English has been made overcomplicated .

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Freddy 007
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 17:31
Quote: "But the point is that English has been made overcomplicated ."


Actually I think English is a lot easier to learn than German, and it's a lot more simple than Danish. If we were to have some kind of global language, English would get my vote.


Miguel Melo
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 17:42
Quote: "Actually I think English is a lot easier to learn than German, and it's a lot more simple than Danish. If we were to have some kind of global language, English would get my vote."


Agree - it's actually quite an easy language. I mean, if English speakers think their language is complicated and full of "exceptions" they should learn a latin language (I assume many others are like that too) properly, what with all the verb declinations and all objects being either a "he" or a "she" (none of this "it" shortcut).

And, no, knowing "Dos cervezas, por favor" doesn't count as knowing a language.

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El Goorf
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 18:07
you guys seem to be forgetting that english has already been made an official language of the world in some senses.

one example being traffic control. every pilot and air traffic controller in the world communicate in english.

to work in the UN, you have to know one of very few selected languages, English is one of them.

after doing a search for universities around the world (i wanna go to uni outside the UK), i found most of them will ask you to do an english profficiency test (for those from non-english speaking countries, including the country the uni is in).
Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 18:25
Quote: "I mean, if English speakers think their language is complicated and full of "exceptions" they should learn a latin language"

I think all languages are overcomplicated, but I've been told English is one of the hardest to learn .

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Killswitch
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 18:55
English is already the de-facto standard world language. Yes, more people speak Chinese and Spanish as a first language, but these number are dwarfed if you count second-language speakers as well. It's a (un)fortunate side effect of British Imperialism and America's current economic/political dominance.

Still, that doesn't mean everyone should speak English constantly!

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Chris K
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 19:54
English has a subjunctive too - If I were older <- subjunctive 'were'.

Also I think possibly 'I knew him to be a good fighter' the 'to be' is subjunctive.

Not definite about that last example...

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
UFO
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 19:56 Edited at: 4th Nov 2006 19:57
I think everyone should just talk Pig Latin. Or even better, 1337 5p3@k...

David R
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 22:38
Quote: "It's a (un)fortunate side effect of British Imperialism"


Yeah, shame we don't still have those globes which highlight parts of the British Empire in red....

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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 22:55
Quote: "What if we just all kept our current languages, but created a global second language for everyone to learn?"


Then after a while other languages will die out and there will be only one language, I think if its necessary to speak to a different language person or people you have an interpreter if its business, or learn the language if its pleasure, pretty much what we do anyway.

Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 23:02
Quote: "If I were older <- subjunctive 'were'"

Explain where exactly the subordinate clause is in that sentence?

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Chris K
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Posted: 4th Nov 2006 23:16 Edited at: 4th Nov 2006 23:18


I didn't mention subordinate clauses...

I said it was in the subjunctive voice...

Unless I missed something?

---------------

Sorry, the subjunctive mood

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Jeku
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Posted: 5th Nov 2006 00:15 Edited at: 5th Nov 2006 00:15
That link with the most spoken languages is incorrect, as you clearly can't bunch Cantonese and Mandarin together. I understand that Cantonese can be considered a Chinese dialect, but believe me if you're raised Cantonese or Mandarin, and not both, you will *not* understand a single word of the other.

To me, a dialect carries many of the rules from the host, and I can't see that with Mandarin and Cantonese.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 5th Nov 2006 00:40
Mandarin and Cantonese is very much French and English I'm guessing, oh English and Scottish or American

Benjamin
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Posted: 5th Nov 2006 00:56
Quote: "I didn't mention subordinate clauses...

I said it was in the subjunctive voice...

Unless I missed something?"

It seems it's different in English then..

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Chris K
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Posted: 5th Nov 2006 01:05
I've noticed a lot of foreign people assume that either Welsh is very similiar to English, or English people can understand Welsh to a certain degree.

It is, of course, rubbish. Nobody understands Welsh, not even Welsh people.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Fallout
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Posted: 5th Nov 2006 01:21
haha. A Frenchman arguing points about subordinate clauses in the English language and I, as an Englishman, have no idea what the hell they are, or what you're all going on about.


Benjamin
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Posted: 5th Nov 2006 01:25
Mais je suis anglais.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 5th Nov 2006 03:50
Trying to up others in the English language is Benjamin's life work. Kind of noble and sad at the same time.

Dr Manette
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Posted: 5th Nov 2006 05:17
Too bad I stink at learning languages, which I blame the US's crappy start on them. If schools here actually cared about teaching them, we'd be starting much much earlier. Ah well.

Creating a new language is sort of a pointless task. Why not learn the ones we already have? And then you have the problem of getting people to learn it.

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indi
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Posted: 5th Nov 2006 05:37
we used to have our own language as kids.
it would help in saying stuff around adults.
it was like those languages where you add a sound to each word.
We learnt french and japanese at school as well as german.
only a few phrases from each language still sticks in my head.

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