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Geek Culture / The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess

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SageTech
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 03:35
Well, obviously unless you've been under a rock for the last week or so, you already know that the new Zelda is finally here (at least for the Wii). As soon as I got my Wii Friday morning, I played Wii sports for an hour or so then dived into Links newest adventure, and I honestly cant put it down! Initially I thought the game started out slow, but it picked up when the time was right.

As for it being an Ocarina of time homage, I honestly don't see the connection, because aside from the grown up graphics and similar places and names, the game has a VERY different feel to it. In fact, Id say its game play mechanics still mirror that of Wind waker. However, I can honestly say that I'm enjoying it, and it by far exceeded my expectations. But is it the next OoT? Ive yet to decide. What are your impressions?

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bond1
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 06:22
Cool, I didn't get a Wii, I'll have to wait for the next round...

Soo...how's that controller treatin ya? Does it work as good as they say? Any lag, dropouts, etc.?

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small fish
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 14:35
I hate Twilight Princess I have been trying to catch a fish for hours I dangle the hook In front of the fish and nothing happens I read that a fish on sign is meant to appear but nothing I am starting to think its a fault

The world is complicated only people are simple
MiR
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 16:25
Great game. The dungeons get a bit tiring towards the end though and there´s still no voice acting. Something that I missed on this one. Never noticed it before. That end boss is neat though. Third time lucky I guess. (This is the third game not directed by Myotimo(sp?) but by some dude begining with A) I´m not sure that Myotimo directed all the others before those 3 but I´m pretty sure he did. It´s easily the longest Zelda. It took me almost 60 hours to complete. Compared to the 30 that wind waker took.

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David T
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 20:27
I'm a bit disappointed that the entire world is mirrored on the Wii version. Yes, I know it's for continuity with link holding the sword in the right hand etc, but I really want Kakariko village to be in hte north east

Torsten Sorensen
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 21:27
I got it along with my Wii, but it hasn't been to fun so far. I hope it gets better soon. I'm at the part where I just beat the monkey boss...that was so strange...

Code Dragon
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 21:58 Edited at: 10th Jan 2007 01:03
It's definitely a very fun game, also nice to see that it's longer than I expected, I was afraid the game might end after I cleaned up all the twilight.

I'm really stuck in this game, I'm in Faron Woods, with that trumpeter guy attacking me with his wood puppet monsters. How do you get to him when he walks up on that really tall ledge? Wolf Link can't jump that high...

[edit]
Nevermind, I found the hidden passageway on the bridge.
[/edit]

It's a lot like Wind Waker, except it doesn't have the toon graphics , I like those. One good part is that now if your rupee wallet is full (mine always is, can anyone explain how to get a bigger one?) and you open a chest with ruppees in it, Link puts it back instead of just tossing it out. Also if you hold down B Link charges up for the spin attack without doing a slice first.

After I got the last fused shadow it was really anoying to see the whole area turn to twilight again. I felt like shouting "I just cleaned up that mess, just keep it clean!"

Quote: "I'm a bit disappointed that the entire world is mirrored on the Wii version. Yes, I know it's for continuity with link holding the sword in the right hand"


When are they going to decide if Link's right handed or left handed? I have the gamecube version, and I've gotten stuck in a couple places so it's annoying to have the entire map mirrored.

I've only caught 2 kinds of fish so far, 1 that the cat ate and a skullfish in the water temple (the game said it's "forbidden" and didn't put it in my fish journal)

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SageTech
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 21:58
I beat it quite a ways back. My only complaint is that they built it up to what could have been an amziing conclusion, but really blew it at the end.

Kenjar, yet another victim of NRS (N00b Relapse Syndrome) May he code in peace...

Antidote
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 22:26
Quote: "so it's annoying to have the entire map mirrored."


It's only mirrored in the Wii version. Your Kakariko is in the east and your gerudo is in the west where they should be. For us wii owners (and BTW the wii version is muuuuch better) everything is flipped over the y axis.


David T
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 22:50
Quote: "It's only mirrored in the Wii version. Your Kakariko is in the east and your gerudo is in the west where they should be. For us wii owners (and BTW the wii version is muuuuch better) everything is flipped over the y axis."


I know... I own the Wii version

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 23:34
How hard can it have been to simply put the sword in Link's opposite hand? Much easier than flipping all the GUI and everything, and it wouldn't annoy people!


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
Jeku
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 23:37
What was the point in having opposite hands for NGC and Wii anyways? Something I'm missing?

Kentaree
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 23:43
Link was always left handed, and that was how they made it when they started on the GC version. When they decided to port it to Wii aswell, they realised that the majority of people are right handed so they changed it all

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 23:46
Quote: "Yes, I know it's for continuity with link holding the sword in the right hand etc,"

So what does link needing to be right-handed have to do with them mirroring the entire world ?

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Antidote
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 23:59
Well in order to make him right handed quickly they had to flip link and his collision boxes etc... It probably would've worked ok, but the developers weren't sure. Better safe than sorry so they flipped everything.


Code Dragon
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 01:12 Edited at: 10th Jan 2007 01:15
Quote: "It's only mirrored in the Wii version. Your Kakariko is in the east and your gerudo is in the west where they should be."


Yes, but most of the online tips explain things only in the Wii version. "Go right if you want to meet Ooccoo" and on mine it's left.

Quote: "How hard can it have been to simply put the sword in Link's opposite hand? Much easier than flipping all the GUI and everything, and it wouldn't annoy people!"


They didn't change the GUI, they probably just flipped the direction that the 3D rendering is displayed to the screen, and slapped the 2D GUI system on top as they normally would.

In this pseudocode, they could have changed one line of code to make the enitire world backwards.



And change it to this:



(Although it would be written in C++ and not DBP and probably more complicated, but this is the basic idea)

In Mario Karts: Double Dash, there's this thing called mirror mode, the track is flipped from left to right just like in Twilight Princess, and all the words on the buildboards are backwards, flipping all the textures would have been tedious so they probably did something like I explained above.

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Antidote
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 01:28
Actually they probably just went through all the media files and said, flip 180 degrees.


Peter H
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 01:30 Edited at: 10th Jan 2007 01:32
Quote: "they probably just flipped the direction that the 3D rendering is displayed to the screen"

err... no.

that would mess up everything, partly because the player would think that there was a tunnel on the left, but really the tunnel is on the right... and partly because that just makes no sense at all...

they probably just flipped all the models across the y-axis

[edit] like antidote so concisely said

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Antidote
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 03:12
yeah and went through all the messages and changed east to west and vice versa.


ionstream
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 15:38
I played the game over Christmas break, and I must say it was the best game I've played in a long time. Great music, great story, although the actual Twilight Realm is somewhat disappointing. I mean, do the citizens of that realm actually get around by using those floaty blue platforms?



That's not as bad as you think you said.
Oolite
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 17:51 Edited at: 10th Jan 2007 17:58
Quote: "One good part is that now if your rupee wallet is full (mine always is, can anyone explain how to get a bigger one?)"

You have to give the bugs you collect to a girl inside a house in hyrule city, she gives you a bigger wallet, mines 600 now, although thats still not enough

Check out the armour inside the shop near the fountain, to get in, theres a little dude in the street that shines your shoes, so you can get in the shop, i wouldn't expect to buy anything though...

Not really into any other launch titles, i'm really looking forward to smash bros and wario ware when they come out here, might get super monkey ball, but i'm not too sure yet.

EDIT:
Quote: "I hate Twilight Princess I have been trying to catch a fish for hours I dangle the hook In front of the fish and nothing happens I read that a fish on sign is meant to appear but nothing I am starting to think its a fault"

The rod you get at the start is fly fishing, when the pole at the end starts to sink down, whip the wiimote up over your shoulder, then hold it there, you should catch fish, later in the game when you get a proper rod you have to use the nunchuk to reel em in
David R
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 18:24
Quote: "everything is flipped over the y axis.
"


Um, wouldn't that make it upside down? Assuming that the Y-axis is being used as Up/down as per usual


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Benjamin
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 18:30 Edited at: 10th Jan 2007 18:31
Quote: "Um, wouldn't that make it upside down? Assuming that the Y-axis is being used as Up/down as per usual"

I think he meant rotated on the Y axis.

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Peter H
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 20:25
Quote: "Um, wouldn't that make it upside down? Assuming that the Y-axis is being used as Up/down as per usual"


the y-axis runs up and down, but if you "flip over it" you flip everything horizontally.

to illustrate, (yes i have way too much time on my hands).



as you can see, if you wanted to make everything upside down you'd have to flip over the x-axis...

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David R
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 20:28 Edited at: 10th Jan 2007 20:29
Quote: "
the y-axis runs up and down, but if you "flip over it" you flip everything horizontally.

to illustrate, (yes i have way too much time on my hands)."


That would be rotating/mirroring. Flipping is vertical (mirroring in the centre horizontal plane usually), so it's the wrong word to use. I know what you mean though - if you rotate around Y, the effect is actually seen on the X (if you get what I mean) but the main problem was the usage of 'flip'.


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
Peter H
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 20:31 Edited at: 10th Jan 2007 20:34
[edit] nvm... you understood him anyway right?

i don't really think that "flipping" is restricted to vertical movement (usually involving a finger)... but if you think so then that's fine.

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David T
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 20:46
I think theworld getting flipped was just a clever way of providing continuity affictionados with a reason that the sword was in the different hand. Remember that all signs are still the right way round (no pun intended) so it was a little more than just a batch rotate job!

They made link right handed as you're swinging the sword with your right hand when you play. Would have just been weird if it was the other way round.

David R
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 20:48 Edited at: 10th Jan 2007 20:50
Quote: "i don't really think that "flipping" is restricted to vertical movement (usually involving a finger)... but if you think so then that's fine"


Flipping isn't restricted to vertical, no. But if you just say 'Flipping' it usually implies Vertical. It's customary to mention the direction in which the flip takes place otherwise (if not all the time) eg. "Horizontal Flip" etc.

EDIT: I'm not referring to the finger motion at all here by the way But it's just that most apps I use (especially PSP) treat 'Flipping' as vertical by default (along with MAX)


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
Code Dragon
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 22:05
Quote: "Quote: "they probably just flipped the direction that the 3D rendering is displayed to the screen"
err... no.

that would mess up everything, partly because the player would think that there was a tunnel on the left, but really the tunnel is on the right... and partly because that just makes no sense at all..."


Yes, it was lacking sense a bit. It's kind of the same idea that Peter H explained. The after the 3D image is rendered it's flipped left/right, and the 2D stuff like the HUD gets put on top.

Quote: "Remember that all signs are still the right way round (no pun intended) so it was a little more than just a batch rotate job!"


They might have fixed that by just mirror the sign texture, so when it get mirrored again it's correct, but I can't remember any signs that were written in English, I think I saw one with strange Hyrulian symobls on it, almost no one would notice if that was flipped.

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Peter H
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 22:15
Quote: "The after the 3D image is rendered it's flipped left/right"

there was no "flipping"/"rotating"/"mirroring" done after they rendered it.

really.



dot-no-foolin.

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David R
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 22:19
I may of got the wrong impression here, but I'm pretty sure (in contrast to what Code Dragon said) the world/levels have been mirrored/rotated along with the objects, and that the drawing of the world to the screen isn't flipped in any way. It's just a static mirroring of stuff when they made the actual game, rather than a runtime rotation.


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
Peter H
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 22:26 Edited at: 10th Jan 2007 22:27
yes, that's the only sane way to do it.

the only thing i can possibly see them rotating during the runtime would be 2D maps... besides that the easiest way (and nearly only way) would be for them to mirror the 3D models. Probably some other details involved there though, like positioning entities... etc

what's funny is that we've just spent most of this thread discussing why/how they mirrored the world...

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 23:14
It seems like a pretty enormous task to make sure EVERYTHING is the right way around and still UV aligned... why on earth didn't they just MIRROR LINK'S MODEL!?


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
Peter H
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 23:16 Edited at: 10th Jan 2007 23:17
lol nex...

we are going in circles.

someone already asked that:
Quote: "So what does link needing to be right-handed have to do with them mirroring the entire world ?"


and antidote answered:
Quote: "Well in order to make him right handed quickly they had to flip link and his collision boxes etc... It probably would've worked ok, but the developers weren't sure. Better safe than sorry so they flipped everything."


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 00:24
I just finished the bit where you have to control the two statues so they stand on their squares. I love those type's of puzzles The water temple always seems to be so hard, no matter what game. Twilight Princess, Ocarina of Time, etc..

I actually like the idea of going back to Hyrule. It gives them a good chance to make it all so much better. In the OOT, it was basically one single almost flat lang, with big "rock" walls, which are just basic flat things, with the grass texture at the bottom of them being taller than link himself.

Code Dragon
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 23:14 Edited at: 11th Jan 2007 23:16
Quote: "I just finished the bit where you have to control the two statues so they stand on their squares."


Me too. What's strange is that now Midna actually calls Link by his name.

Press Z before you finish the water temple.
"Huh? What is it?"

Press Z after you finish the water temple.
"What is it, Link?" (or whatever name you put in)

Suddendly she's so nice, maybe it's because that Zant guy converted her to a light person.

Quote: "Quote: "The after the 3D image is rendered it's flipped left/right"
"


I can't belive I re-explained it with a typo.

Quote: "Gimme teh code!"

Thank you for not flooding the forums with posts like this.
David R
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 20:56
Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "The after the 3D image is rendered it's flipped left/right"
"

I can't belive I re-explained it with a typo."


Beside the fact what you're saying is completely wrong. I mean, why the hell would the game flip the screen on the fly? It makes no sense


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
Silvester
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 21:10
Aggh...too bad the last Wii went outof store when it was my turn

Tinkergirl
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 23:23
Personally, I play Zelda left handed anyway, and the fact that Link holds the sword in his right hand has never bothered me in the slightest. Great game, 45hrs in and just got 1 and a half dungeons to go

Antidote
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 01:51
Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "Quote: "The after the 3D image is rendered it's flipped left/right"
"

I can't belive I re-explained it with a typo."

Beside the fact what you're saying is completely wrong. I mean, why the hell would the game flip the screen on the fly? It makes no sense"


Disclaimer: If you are offended easily don't read the next paragraph, instead go to the one after it .

OK, for the love of [insert religious figure here], they do NOT flip the screen on the fly. The went through every image file, model file, camera script, messages and flipped everything over the Y axis. This means that every model and its animations are flipped, every image (besides the HUD and menus) are flipped, every scripted camera rotation is flipped, every message said by NPCs has EAST instead of WEST and vice versa. If you disagree then you're being retarded, unless you disagree and have a much better way that it could be done. There's no changing the screen on the fly, no magic fairies confusing your brain, no Nintendo Gnome inside of your wii flipping everything, your eyes are in the wrong sockets. </rant>

That said... The game is great, I beat it at 42 hours (I was obsessed), great ending, great final boss, great final dungeon. I like how they had a lot of cameos and little easter eggs pointing towards Ocarina, but it was still a different game. That made sure that it wasn't just Ocarina + wolf form. Although the lack of a musical instrument made me sad. True you could argue that there are some instruments, but they're nothing like the ocarina.


Jeku
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 02:35
I find it more than mildly amusing everyone is getting riled up about "how it was done", even though none of us know for sure

Code Dragon
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 16:44 Edited at: 15th Jan 2007 16:48
Quote: "If you disagree then you're being retarded, unless you disagree and have a much better way that it could be done."


Mirroring the image at runtime by changing a few lines of code or less is easier than inverting the x coordinate of every vertex of every object in the game to flip it on it's local origin, then inverting the x coordinate of every object in every map to flip it along the global origin. Of course they'd need to change west/east directions and flip the map images, nobody's that dumb.

Seriously though, does it really matter how they did it? It's just a game. 99% of the people who play the game don't care how it got mirrored, and I'm one of them. We're just guessing, it makes no difference how it was done, nothing to rant about.

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David R
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Posted: 15th Jan 2007 18:08
Quote: "We're just guessing, it makes no difference how it was done, nothing to rant about.
"


Unfortunately, I would agree, however, what you're saying is very impractical:

Quote: "by changing a few lines of code or less is easier than inverting the x coordinate of every vertex of every object in the game to flip it on it's local origin, then inverting the x coordinate of every object in every map to flip it along the global origin."


You realise that flipping the screen during runtime isn' t especially fast, right? You'd have to store the screen image off screen in memory, flip it, and copy it back to the screen. Then you'd have to update the rest of the screen in a separate draw, since you couldn't draw on the main 3d stuff (otherwise it would be flipped too)

So essentially:

- It's slow
- It's slow
- It's a waste of precious memory
- It's slow.

Flipping things on the fly is pointless and dumb. I realise that we don't know how they actually did it, but I'm pretty sure that flipping the screen on the fly for each draw would kill the precious resources the Wii had - resources that would be needed elsewhere.

Quote: "easier than inverting the x coordinate of every vertex of every object in the game to flip it on it's local origin, then inverting the x coordinate of every object in every map to flip it along the global origin."


It's easier, sure. But it's also a hell of a lot slower. I'm pretty sure they would of rebuilt most of the world in new tools for this game anyway, so they would of probably of done this during level-making, as opposed to getting the original world and flipping it.


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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 16th Jan 2007 01:40
Quote: "You realise that flipping the screen during runtime isn' t especially fast, right? You'd have to store the screen image off screen in memory, flip it, and copy it back to the screen. Then you'd have to update the rest of the screen in a separate draw, since you couldn't draw on the main 3d stuff (otherwise it would be flipped too)"


Surely it's just a matter of flipping the projection matrix for the 3d stuff and put it back for the 2d overlays, no? (Never tried it and haven't given it more than 10secs thought, but I'm sure it's possible)

Assuming I didn't deserve to have failed on my Computer Graphics classes , using the matrix hack, rendering would be exactly the same speed.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 17th Jan 2007 15:37
@Miguel: Yes indeed it would be, between that and inverting the left and right controls it should theoretically be fairly quick.

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