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Geek Culture / New independent game websites gives us a chance

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Xander
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 04:23 Edited at: 27th Nov 2006 06:20
Most of us here can be considered independent game developers, and we all know how hard it is to crack into the corporate video game world. I'm just wondering how those of you who were successful pulled it off.

It seems that the StarWraith series was quite popular, and as far as I can remember, he sold them all from his own site. Now that's amazing.

Dumbo and Cool is another game that comes to mind, although I don't know how successful that was.

I actually got Firewall published by another company, Manifesto Games ( http://www.manifestogames.com ), but I haven't even sold a copy from them yet. They have a really good idea though, they are a couple of former executives to put together the company to sell indie games. I don't know if it has ever been brought up here yet. I tried to advertise my game through forums and stuff, but no luck. I've ended up spending a lot more than I made. A lot.

So I'm just curious if anyone has had success with an outside indie game publisher, or by selling themselves.

Xander Moser - Bolt Software - Firewall
Raven
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 06:03
I always found Firewall to be an interesting RTS, quite well polished and playable. Not something that can be said from many games produced using DarkBasic "Classic".

I'm quite sad to hear you've not had much luck with the retail aspect of the game, but somehow I don't think you're by far alone in your plight. There are a number of shareware developers who have seen a fairly steady decline in sales over the past year.

Best options for most right now, is to sign to an established publisher in order to get your game more noticed.
I know that there's a developer on here trying to get his work on to Steam, which seems like a good digital publishing oppertunity for most.

I think the main issue with most indie titles, is that they're honestly just never seen much outside of given circles. Making sure you get through to the biggest market possible is the first step to making a decent profit.

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BatVink
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 09:51
I went to a conference with some big name game companies a couple of weeks ago. The general concensus is that publishers do not have your interests at heart.

For 95% of game makers, I can believe it is true. Even if you get your game "published", the danger is that you still won't make any money because it will be used as a stocking filler. That is, the publisher could be giving it away at less than cost, to encourage sales of the units he will make money on.

This information isn't speculation, it came straight from a royalties auditor. His job is to find anomalies in royalty payouts.

So it really is a case of working out whether you want exposure for little or no return. Your first steps may turn out to be for no reward, but is it worth doing to get further up the ladder?



Fallout
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 11:28 Edited at: 27th Nov 2006 11:30
That's not the best news Xander. Having heard Drew's lack of success, I was hoping that Firewall would've hopefully managed to do a bit better and make you a few quid. Not good.

I don't know what the answer is, but perhaps if more of us completed games of a decent quality, we could set up our own outlet. The more titles, the more punters we'd pull in, and the more exposure for our other games on the site. Just a random idea, and at the moment there aren't really enough titles afaik, but I'm sure us indis can help each other out. If we're all releasing under the same outlet, we're all promoting the same outlet too. Suddenly you have a bigger marketting army getting exposure for you, rather than 1 lone developer trying to plug his game.

If I ever get Claymore Island or ODF finished, I'd be happy to contribute to such a site.


Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 11:34
Wouldn't it be a good idea for TGC to "publish" these games? This could achieve a number of things:
1) Would make it clear to people who are looking into Dark Basic that it IS possible to get good games published.
2) Would drive traffic to the site
3) You might stand a chance to make some money as it would be in TGC's interests for the game to do well.

I dunno - seems a little odd that TGC dont offer at least a "lite" service like this...

[center]
BatVink
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 12:02
Rick V has commented on this before, he said they are not in the games publishing market. It sounds a bit odd at first sight, but I see where he's coming from. Just because the company I work for sells ERP software to the Fashion industry doesn't mean we want to sell dresses and pants.



Crazy Ninja
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 12:08
Well the last I heard Cash Curtis II had gotten a publisher for his game Geisha House. So he's had some luck hopefully.

Fallout
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 12:43
Yeah, but how many copies he sells is another matter. I hope he does well though.

I understand Ricks position. I dont think indi game sales are lucrative, so it'd be quite a big infrastructure in terms of selling the software, providing support, server space, and drawing up contracts with indis etc. for only a small return. There would also have to be quality control to avoid a million commercial pong games appearing on the sales outlet. Still, they have most of the infrastructure in place. It wouldn't require that much work, but it is a question of casheesh.

Like I said, if I get a game finished I'll be up for some sort of commercial venture.


Nicholas Thompson
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 13:08
I'm not talking a fully fledged publisher with CD Printing and all - but it'd be nice to see an online shop, even if it links to a worldpay type arrangement. Just an easy way for indi gamers to sell their games online.

Each user could have their own shop they could manage. Under your profile, you put the games there and set a price. Obviously, the game wouldn't go live until it had been moderated - there would need to be a level of control.

But for something like Firewall (which I thought was fantastic), it'd be really cool to see a section on this site selling it as I think it really shows off what DBP can do when a decent programmer and artist gets his/her hands on it.

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 13:25 Edited at: 27th Nov 2006 13:28
I might be looking into very seriously doing this next year; I've got two projects of my own about half done each. (My go-karting game and the platforming game) and this would kick start Drewsgames.com again.

Who would be interested in such an idea? I'm looking to turn Drewsgames.com into more of a portal than just a personal games site.

And when I decide to do something I get it done. (sometimes a bit late, but I do get it done none the less)

Mr Tank
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 14:45
I figured once i made a decent game or two, i'd make a site, and let people donate to me via paypal or something if they felt like it.
I think it would be cool to have a site like Myspace or 1up or Deviantart or something, where each person has their own space and a blog. Actually, perhaps we should all get accounts on those sites. Myspace works for indy music. Why not indy games?
I also think it would be nice if there was some sort of "hub" news/reviews site from which to find out about loads of indy games easily, with website links and that. Perhaps there already is but i haven't found it. Alternately, this could be just another account on myspace or whatever- eg "DB games club", o "Indy games club".
I see there is this kind of thing on youtube already.
I think such a site needs to appeal to, or be found by people other than just fellow game makers. Perhaps a bit of "advertising" by us posting in other internet forums that we frequent would be a good idea.
If we could get it featured on a major gaming site, there would be a lot of exposure and traffic. Perhaps money could be generated through advertising, and the games could be free.


You'll be able to click on this someday.
Tinkergirl
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 14:48
Has anyone considered using Cafepress? They allow you to sell data CDs, as well as music CD's and books/booklets. I imagine that would be quite good for small runs, and you'd retain control over it.

http://www.cafepress.com/buy/game/-/c_475/fpt________________A

for example.

The only two problems (and they are major problems) would be advertising the cafepress shop, and copy-security. Neither of these problems would be insurmountable, just bleedin' hard.

indi
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 14:50
I guess ill be making my own store to start with, publishing deals seem like a last resort.

Drew Cameron
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 14:53
Quote: "Perhaps money could be generated through advertising, and the games could be free."


That doesn't really generate enough money. I get alot of traffic and clicks and still just over 50 cents a day. (25p)

Take a look at Gametunnel.com if you're looking for somewhere with indy game news.

TINKERGIRL: Plimus allow you to set up shops selling CD's, sadly without booklets etc...

KeithC
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 15:52 Edited at: 27th Nov 2006 16:01
One of the things I'm eventually going to incorporate into our main page on our site, is a link exchange program of some sort. I do like the idea of having one or two 'all-encompassing' independent game development vending sites. I do think that eventually it would gather enough steam to bring in a steady flow of hopeful developers.

I'm not sure I see the point of not putting up a game store here though. I know another site that starts with a 'G', that has development tools, and sells games made with it. Seems like an effective way to promote the very people it relies on to buy/use it's product.

-Keith

Xander
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 18:20
Quote: "But for something like Firewall (which I thought was fantastic), it'd be really cool to see a section on this site selling it as I think it really shows off what DBP can do when a decent programmer and artist gets his/her hands on it."


Well...TGC did publish my game. The last time I checked, it was still available, but it appears as if they have removed it. I didn't think my contract with them was over yet. But I'm sure there was some clause in there that said they could stop it at any time. Oh well. Not like I have sold one on here for over a year anyway.

Quote: "I don't know what the answer is, but perhaps if more of us completed games of a decent quality, we could set up our own outlet. The more titles, the more punters we'd pull in, and the more exposure for our other games on the site."


I love that idea. I'm still in college right now, and am pretty busy. I'm not sure what I could help with, but I'd try my best. I do have a lot of unused space and bandwidth that I'm paying for right now. I could even increase the size of my account and we could get our very own domain name. And if we all helped pay for advertising, maybe we could pull something off. Right now I'm paying $10 a month for nothing. But if I take it down then my publishers might get angry.

The thing that will give this a chance at being a success is having a lot of contributors. I still have the rights to my game, so I could put Firewall up there. And I am almost to the point of starting up on Firewall 2 again, maybe I could get some help. I need help with animations right now. But that's a whole different issue, sorry.

Just as a side note, I wrote an article last night for a class about indie video game developers. I am also going to publish it in our college newspaper, as I am the chief copy editor and can pretty much put whatever I feel like in there. Here's a link to my article if you want to read it. It's a little long right now, needs another run-through.

http://www.boltsoftwaregames.com/opinion.doc

Thanks for all of your input, I'm glad that this is an important issue to more than just me.

Xander Moser - Bolt Software - Firewall
Fallout
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 20:49 Edited at: 27th Nov 2006 20:52
Definitely the biggest problem is games. The two commercially viable games we have are Firewall and Dumbow and Cool. To me, that's not enough. I would say 3 minimum, preferably 4, and hopefully another one in the works we can boast about or mention etc. Games in production will encourage people to come back. Updates and addons (especially free ones) for our released games would also encourage people to come back. I think what's really attractive to the prospective buyer is to come onto a site, and see choice, quality and new content coming, all at a great price. Lots and lots to think about.

But, it comes down to what games we have. I'm glad you like the idea. I definitely think we'll have more success working as a team, rather than being one little lonely fish in such a big industry. The only people who are going to want to contribute though will be those that are about to finish a game or have finished, and that's very few of us.

It's an idea I think we need to keep on the back-burner and keep in mind, and relies 100% on people coming forward with finished (or near finished) games of a decent quality. Then we can but try! My advice would be stick with FW2. If you can finish that, we'll be starting with an even higher calibre of game.


Chris K
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 21:26
I don't think that is the answer, actually - lots of games.

I think the way to make money with DBPro (or as an indie developer) is to get together a small group of highly skilled and enthusiastic people, and form a team. The point is everyone has to be very good (the sort of people who can already put of games as good as Firewall and Claymore Island by themselves - for this to be viable the has to be absolutely no dead wood.

This team should then work together on one very high quality game after the other.

If every game is commercial quality aaaaaand STANDS OUT, then you should be able to build up a kind of following.

There are lots of websites and magazines (such as Edge, MCV (<?) and Develop) that really love getting behind good indie developers, and giving them a page or article.

Then you do everything yourself.
Games are only available by download from a dedicated site or by a print-on-request mail order CD thing (that you do yourself - this costs the customer more).

The point is, there is basically no start up cost, and not really any cost anywhere!

You sell the games for £4.99, maybe £9.99 if you make something amazing and it gets good coverage.

The keys are:
- small, good, team
- a few very high quality games with a unique selling point
- absolutely whore the games to get coverage
- try and keep customers from game to game

The only people I know to have done this so far are Introversion Software (?), you know the guys who made Uplink, Darwinia and Defcon.

There are like 5 of them, they've sold hundreds of thousands (millions?) of downloads, work out yourself how rich they must be...

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Tinkergirl
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 21:32
I believe* that Cash has always stated that he wants to hand invite a killer-team in the possibly-distant future. I'm sure others around here have entertained the idea themselves, but so far it's never happened. So many people have lives.

*My memory may be faulty, please do not quote

Chris K
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 21:36
I suggested it a few weeks ago... it was in a fairly random thread though...

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Fallout
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 21:50 Edited at: 27th Nov 2006 21:51
I agree, that would be the best way, but I don't think it's likely to happen. Everyone is different, works differently, has different ideas, schedules, motivation, goals etc. I for one normally have a very specific goal in mind when I make a game, and am not really prepared to compromise it. I'd have to be a lead game designer on a team for me to be happy, and lets face it, everyone wants to have major input into the game design. That's just one example (and a personal one) of things that affect indi teams.

IMO, the best games will come from a small dedicated and skilled team (like you said), but we're more likely to have success in at least making a product with individual indi's doing their own thing (Firewall, D&C, Geisha House). Communication for indi's is such a bottleneck. However, I dont think it matters how the games are made to this site, so if someone can successfully set up a team and make a top quality game which becomes the main flagship product, then that'd be great. No problem with that at all.

Btw, I personally would love to work with a 3D artist, but have no real desires to work with another coder. I feel DBP is so high level, there isn't much of a need for more than 1 coder, but there will always be a lot of media to be produced.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Nov 2006 22:51
I agree on the comments about selling games on TGC, even if they're just sent in a sleeve, similar to what Garagegames do with their Torque made games, but I'm sure there are good reasons why they haven't done this. However good thing there are these website cropping up for indie developers.

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Hakamoto Tsunetomo
Jeku
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 04:18
No offense to anyone here who has made a commercial game, but:

I honestly believe in order to make *any* money in shareware, your game has to stand out above everything. If you make another generic shooter, or a puzzle game that we've seen 100 times before, you will NOT make a dime.

Games like Armadillo Run stand out on top of other indie games, and if you go to the website you can see he has made a lot of cash from the software (a lot of which he gives away to charities). Basically you need something totally original, a pioneer, if you will. Sorry for all those making generic RPGs, FPS', and platformers. I just don't see anything like that making cash in my experience.

Raven
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 04:49
Quote: "I honestly believe in order to make *any* money in shareware, your game has to stand out above everything. If you make another generic shooter, or a puzzle game that we've seen 100 times before, you will NOT make a dime."


I agree in-part with this comment.
Creating a clone of games seen countless times before will really put people off the game on the whole, and you can only get away with doing a game like that for already established franchises.

On the other hand, I wouldn't count entire genres out as viable ways to create a game that will interest people.

The issue isn't with the game itself, but the content of the game.
I would say taking a leaf out of the book of retail titles and their success honestly is a good way to go.

Halo 2 and Counter-Strike have seen huge followings of gamers playing them online since release. Halo 2 also has a very replayable singleplayer aspect... however a very good question is why? Neither game really breaks the mold of fps games, in-fact if anything they are very traditional in their design as both are pure bullet spewing action. Although sure you can say CS has objectives, how often does either team ever actually achieve them; but rather just tries to kill the opposition team to win a round?

This is what makes this genre so good. You don't have to have top-notch graphics, amazingly innovative gameplay, or really anythign that pushes the bounderies of the genres to make a game that people become addicted to. It's all about how easy it is to simply jump-in and play.

It's something that I would honestly say a good majority of Shareware titles lack; and that's polish & gameplay considerations.

To grab a gamers attention is graphics.
To grab the gamers time is gameplay.
To keep the gamers hooked is polish.

If a gamer can enjoy the game and start having fun without anything bothering them within the first crucial few minutes of play; I can guarentee that they will want to play it more.

Halo 2 for example is almost identical gameplay from start to finish and online your just playing to kill each other as quickly as possible. What has made it such a success is a) it's very easy to play, and b) the physics, and weapon balance give it a fun-factor polish that gamers will come back to and enjoy, time after time.

A big killer in communities like this, are everyone is either hyper-critical and say "this is crap" or they're so easily impressed and say "OMFG th1s roXXors th3 b1g !111". There's no real feedback on the quality or playability of a product that they're playing or testing for developers. So a developer will go off either thinking it was a big waste of time, or that it's so freaking amazing that it's got to sell big.

Reality of the situation is these are being sold to people who have no idea about what it takes to make these games; their only reference are retail titles they buy for their PS2, Xbox 360 or other such console.

Don't get me wrong adding innovation and providing something novel that gamers will use and think "cool" about, can often help you get the game out to more people; but always remember that the core or substance of the game over the interesting fluff is what is important for the actual development.

I can show you a good number of games retail and shareware, where the developers have just got it all wrong.. because they've focused on the wrong thing.

Honestly I believe games like Doom 3 and Half-Life 2 wouldn't have been so huge if they were the first incarnation of the series. With no backing from an established name you have to provide something that gamers will enjoy, build up the name and following.

Good games come from simple ideas.

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Xander
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 06:44
Quote: "Good games come from simple ideas."


I like that quote a lot, and completely agree with it.

As I am thinking of new and innovative things for my new game, I keep getting too complex, and I realize that. I need to work on making my next game more simple...but more in-depth. It's a very hard balance to achieve, and I hope I can get closer this time. I believe that my first game was too complex and hard to get into, but did not have enough content to make people want to play more. It's a learning process.

Xander Moser - Bolt Software - Firewall
indi
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 06:56
Jeku you hit the nail on the head with the word "shareware".
Its not a road im embarking down.

Raven
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 07:10
Quote: "As I am thinking of new and innovative things for my new game, I keep getting too complex, and I realize that. I need to work on making my next game more simple...but more in-depth. It's a very hard balance to achieve, and I hope I can get closer this time. I believe that my first game was too complex and hard to get into, but did not have enough content to make people want to play more. It's a learning process."


I think Firewall was well designed, and a good idea. What probably doesn't help is that the gameplay isn't explained (atleast not in the demo) and you get everything immediately.

This can overwhelm the player. I mean something that annoyed me about the game was, the virus could build up their forces far to quickly; and it felt like you had very little control over your offensive units. Taking the concept and adapting it, so it gives a bit more of a traditional RTS gameplay aspects would've made it far more accessible.

The content was there, and it's a very polished and responsive game. It's just the gameplay aspect that really hurts it.

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 10:44
It kind of hit me just a day or so ago that we're not so much competing with other indie games, but the professional games of 3-5 years ago. Basically, if people want to sell their game for a fiver (£5) then they're up against games like Theif II, Theme Hospital, Broken Sword I&II double pack, Myst etc etc. Those are the games that are in the £5 price bracket, so if we don't have gameplay or graphics or polish (or all three) better than those, then we're not competing in the price bracket.

Theif II (as the one I played most recently) is now my yardstick.

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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 13:07
I agree. Niche and originality. I think Firewall achieves that to an extent by providing an environment that isn't seen in commercial games, even if its still an RTS at heart. I racked my brains for a unique angle for my RTS - computers, space, foriegn planets, under water, inside the human body, microscoptic level, inter-galactic level .... but they either didn't stick out, seem like that'd work, or they'd been done before. Innovation is definitely a tricky business.

Armadillo run, for me, is an example of a fad type game. I feel like I wasted my money there. I played it for about 3 days on and off, and now I have zero interest in playing it again. But I have to commend the guy for getting me to part with my money, because I wouldn't normally do that. He did create something original that got me hooked, even if it was for a very short space of time.

There's another problem - business vs hobby. We all know simple games with an addictive hook are gonna be the most lucrative, but are they the most fun to make? Would you rather make your own RPG which you love making and make much less money, or make a simple but innovative game that'll get you cash, but you didn't particularly enjoy putting together?

Personally I would rather make a game I enjoy making and make peanuts, than vice versa. Unless we're talking huge bucks, but then again, you can't guarentee huge bucks. For me this is a hobby I'd like to make a bit of money from, but I dont consider it a business venture, so I'd always rather make games I want to make.


Kenjar
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 13:13
Until groups of people start working together, as I recently attempted, there really is no hope for any game produced in DarkBASIC Professional, doing very well, or coming up to 3 - 4 year old games standard. As Rich declaired recently, starwra ith was never a DBP programmed game, it was in fact written in C. Sure, DarkBASIC can do some pretty nice graphical stuff these days, some bugfixes and new features have definately helped it along, not to mention a new set of plugins. However, no single person, on their own is going to make a commerical quaility game. All DarkBASIC Professional allows is a smaller team coming up to commerical standards, but there never the less NEEDS to be a team.

indi
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 13:25
Quote: "Until groups of people start working together, as I recently attempted, there really is no hope for any game produced in DarkBASIC Professional"


I tend to disagree with your statements, Im finding your current posts a little cranky in subjective manner which in turn is hardly rational.

Kenjar
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 14:39
Quote: "I tend to disagree with your statements, Im finding your current posts a little cranky in subjective manner which in turn is hardly rational."


Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But I'm speaking from observation and experiance. Name me one, released, successful game, purely written in DBP, by just one single person and I'll retract what I said. But as Tinkergirl said, we're not up against other indi game maker stands, we are up against aging, yet still superior commerical games that anyone can grab for £5 in the bargan bin.

adr
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 14:56
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is another example of you being petulant.


I'm superfly TNT
Kenjar
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 14:59
Good choice of words.

adr
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 15:03 Edited at: 28th Nov 2006 15:04
erm... thank you. I do agree with your sentiment (it's just you usually phrase it in a way that annoys people) - this community's problem is that there are 100s of people with the best idea ever+, but no-one wants to share the limelight.

Then you've got the flipside of people polishing a dog turd and selling it.

Both of these attributes don't do the community any favours. To conclude; we're putting our faith in Fallout - no pressure dude.


I'm superfly TNT
Kenjar
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 15:19 Edited at: 28th Nov 2006 15:22
Yes I do, it's all part of my mental make up. What sounds reasonable and well stated to me often sounds annoying to other people. I can't help it . Luckily in face to face situations most people take it as blunt honesty which does work to my advantage. I've never failed to get a job I've been interviewed for, with the exception of one.

But yes, you see the big issue within the community. I had hoped with Open MMO that more programmers would work together. It definately worked with the artist community! We had loads, and loads of submissions. But then when you think about it, the not sharing of limelight thing works quite well. It only takes one person to do a model or graphic, and posting it to a website tends to help play to their vanity. However, when it comes to programming, no one here is willing to work with someone else for long. It's a shame, but that's where commerical projects win out, if you don't work, there's no payment, plus of cause commerical projects often use languages that lots of people know, and are well trained in so there's alot of compeition around for jobs, so it's easy to replace lots team members, even if it is inconviniant bring them up to speed. It's a shame that within this smaller community the same can not be said.

Fallout
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 15:27 Edited at: 28th Nov 2006 15:29
@adr - Dont worry man. I don't feel any pressure. I enjoy letting you all down. In fact, I routinely make decisions which I know will result in my failure, just so I can disappoint you all. The satisfaction I get from crushing the hopes of the community far outweighs any satisfaction I could get from actually finishing a good game.

There are quite a few good game coders here, with good ideas and a willingness to see the games through to the end. The problem really, to me at least, just seems to be media.

Here's something controversial, and might bother a few people. The 3D board really bugs me. It bugs me a lot. There is a lot of talent there. They routinely have competitions to create models and renders and there are some good results that come from it. Some of those peeps make models for games, but it seems a lot of time these guys are making super high poly models (which do look damn good) that they can put into a render. We're talking tens to hundreds of hours of work, making some beautiful model, so they can render it into a still image.

I can't help look at that lot as a complete waste of potential and talent. I couldn't give a rats a-hole about a still render of some brilliantly made mech model. I can't think of anything more pointless. It's not very good art, in my opinion, just a mildly interesting computer model, with some fancy lighting. Like I said, it really bugs me. If those people spent more time actively trying to contribute to game making on this game making website, then perhaps we'd have some games.

Totally personal opinion. I'm sure some people love 3D renders and high poly models and love to just look at them all day with a box of kleenex at hand. Personally, I can't see how a 3D artist would prefer to make a very complex and time consuming 3D model to have a few still renders, over making models that they can interact with and place in a computer game. Ya know, something other people can enjoy, that contribute to the community, that is productive, that helps make good games, that anyone who plays games will like to see ....

Ok, that's one thing that has been bothering me for some time. Bring on the come backs! I'm ready!


Kenjar
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 15:38 Edited at: 28th Nov 2006 15:39
Quote: "Here's something controversial, and might bother a few people. The 3D board really bugs me. It bugs me a lot. There is a lot of talent there. They routinely have competitions to create models and renders and there are some good results that come from it. Some of those peeps make models for games, but it seems a lot of time these guys are making super high poly models (which do look damn good) that they can put into a render. We're talking tens to hundreds of hours of work, making some beautiful model, so they can render it into a still image."


Yes that's not very useful for game design unless you want a screen render or CGI scene! I can see why you'd get bugged.

Do you have people working on claymore island with you?

Fallout
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 16:25
Nope. I do everything myself in all my games (coding, modelling, animation, 2D textures, level design, sound, music). Megaton was helping me out with level design for Claymore Island when it was a single player game idea, but his life got busy. I actually choose my game designs around what I can achieve as a media artist. I don't, at this point in time, have the skill to make decent FPS characters, so I would never make an FPS, as much as I would like to try and have a go at one.

It's very draining doing everything yourself, and its the main reason why I dont get games finished. I'm sure many here can relate to that. It bugs me when I know what I could achieve if the media was available, and it potentially is. The talent to make it exists, but the people with the talent are either busy elsewhere, not interested, too lazy, worried their work will go to waste, or unaware of what could be achieved if they hooked up with one of the coders here who can make a decent game (and there are quite a few good coders here).

Btw, I dont blame 3D artists, as if they're some sorta bunch of lazy wasters! I just find it frustrating that we have all the tools and all the skills but constant conflicts of interest, goals, social life, motivation and commitment.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 17:14
Quote: "Btw, I dont blame 3D artists, as if they're some sorta bunch of lazy wasters!"


Take one look at me and you will When it comes to indie games, I don't think a team works out, being indie you have other things occupying you, and those priorities can get in the way, where as on your own you don't have to worry about other people, or wait for media, you can just do each bit individually in your own time, slower? yes, but I'd prefer that way, hence I do, but for me it is extremely slow which could easily be saved by a faster computer and a decent chair .

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Hakamoto Tsunetomo
the_winch
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Posted: 28th Nov 2006 18:06
I think the small publishing website idea is flawed. They don't have enough clout to negotiate exclusive distribution rights. This makes it difficult to recoup the losses made promoting games that do poorly.
When they do find a good game the author can undercut them and make more money as the author doesn't have to cover the cost of promoting dud games.
I think this is why most of them are just glorified web hosts that do almost nothing to promote individual games they sell.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
Jeku
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 05:49
Quote: "As Rich declaired recently, starwra ith was never a DBP programmed game, it was in fact written in C"


Are you sure you read that right?

Xander
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 06:35
I always thought the first Star Wraith games, or at least the very first one, was written in DBC. And the rest in DBC or DBP

Xander Moser - Bolt Software - Firewall
Mr Tank
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 06:51
My plan is to make a few "portfolio" games that don't require a lot of media, or work using placeholders. That way i can convince modelling/sound effects/texturing/artist/musician guys that any stuff they do for me will most likely end up being showcased in a decent, finished game, rather than being lost in development hell.
At the moment, i don't trust myself to finish anything, so i can't reasonably expect anyone else to.

On the other hand, i would really like to see the modelling guys, for example, build up a library of general stuff that anyone can use. The DBP media folder is a bit limited. The same goes for sounds and music. I can get a few things by searching my harddrive for .wav files, but if i were ever to sell anything, everything has to be by the book.


You'll be able to click on this someday.
BatVink
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 09:54
Quote: "As Rich declaired recently, starwra ith was never a DBP programmed game, it was in fact written in C"


That was Trackmania Sunrise, which was sold on this site for a short while.



Kenjar
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 12:00 Edited at: 29th Nov 2006 12:01
Quote: "Are you sure you read that right?"


The following was posted by Rich.

Quote: "I challenge you to find a page *on our site* that says anything even remotely similar to that. I wouldn't have written it in the first place because (a) neither of those games are written in DBPro and (b) Shaun has never released the source code to them."


Now I read it a second time, C isn't actually mentioned, my mistake. However he doesn't say it was written in any DarkBASIC language at all. I'm not sure what it was written in, but it's not nessassarily DarkBASIC Classic either. I merely assumed that if "the publisher" decided to add these games to the TGC pack, then it wasn't something related to TGC or a TGC product at all. But this is deduction and guess work on my part.



Kentaree
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 12:10
Kenjar, I seem to remember that there were 2 versions of Starwraith, one written in DBC and one in C. It said it on the game's website if I remember correctly

KeithC
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 13:51
Quote: "On the other hand, i would really like to see the modelling guys, for example, build up a library of general stuff that anyone can use."

That's something I've been piecing together for awhile now:

Freebies Section

I'm still plugging away at it, and there are a few more things to be found for free on the forums. Everything comes with a license for its use.

-Keith

Kenjar
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 14:23
Quote: "Kenjar, I seem to remember that there were 2 versions of Starwraith, one written in DBC and one in C. It said it on the game's website if I remember correctly"


I just went on the website, and I can't see anything there, unless it came up in a forum post. Do you have a link, or a rough idea of where you saw it? I don't mind searching.

Chris K
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 15:03
AFAIK, they were made in DBC.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-

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