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Geek Culture / New independent game websites gives us a chance

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Mr Tank
21
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Joined: 25th Nov 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 29th Nov 2006 15:22 Edited at: 29th Nov 2006 15:30
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Quote: "
That doesn't really generate enough money. I get alot of traffic and clicks and still just over 50 cents a day. (25p)
"

Is that steady? I guess it shows there is some money to be made.
Quote: "
Take a look at Gametunnel.com if you're looking for somewhere with indy game news."

Nice site. I should give it a god browsing when i get the chance.

Quote: "
That's something I've been piecing together for awhile now:

Freebies Section

I'm still plugging away at it, and there are a few more things to be found for free on the forums. Everything comes with a license for its use.

-Keith
"

Nice one. I should have checked before i opened my mouth. Just found this: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=64205&b=1


You'll be able to click on this someday.
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Ron Erickson
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Posted: 29th Nov 2006 21:45
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All of the StarWraith games are written in DB Classic. I've talked to Shawn numerous times about this over the past couple months.
I created a dll for the TrackIR head tracking system so it could be supported in Shawn's latest game "Arvoch Conflict". The dll had to be usable from DB Classic because that is what the game is written in.
Here is more info on the TrackIR if you are interested. Look at the "Special Thanks" section
http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/03-enhanced-games/enhanced-games-all.html

Regards,
Ron Erickson

EZrotate! TextureMax! Enhanced Animations! (coming soon....) 3D Character Maker! (coming soon....)
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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 22:10 Edited at: 29th Nov 2006 22:14
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Quote: "I'm sure many here can relate to that. "


I totally agree with Fallout. In the past 5 years since leaving the games industry I made 2 somewhat serious attempts at starting a indi game by building a small team of like minded people, who would do it for the heck of it but with an eye to making some money if we got to the end with an ok product.

Prior to that I had a go at trying to do something on my own only to find that I would get not only overwhelmed with the gfx requirements, but hopelessly distracted farting about with a 3d modeller and not doing any code (which is my discipline). So, unless you're Leonardo DaVinci I really don't think you can be proficient enough to do anything worthwhile on your own: specially when you also have a 8:30-19:00 job and family.

So, anyway, when scouting the land for braves to join me in an equal equity venture I found that, while finding good coders was hard, finding good artists that you could depend on was impossible! You either got potentially commited people with no skill, skilled people that prefered to use their time doing drivel or unskilled people doing drivel.

In a nutshell, at least over here, I found that artists really are more of a moving target than coders - and have a lot more of a "mercenary" attitude too. No amount of "look dude, I am also doing the code for no money in sight" would sway them away from doing a website for someone for a few bob towards investing time in a project that they agreed was more exciting, but potentially non-profitable (it looking good on their portfolio didn't seem to convince them either).

Oh well... these days I just hunch in the corner and cry myself to sleep. Because that's something I can do on my own...

I have vague plans for World Domination
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Chris K
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Location: Lake Hylia
Posted: 29th Nov 2006 22:21
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Maybe we should all just teach ourselves to be decent modellers...

I mean, we were crap at coding once upon a time...

It is weird, though, how modelers are happy just modelling and not making games.

As if use coders just sat around making sorting algorythms all day.

'Modeller's Code' is never seen, whereas 'Coder's Art' afflict's most TGC games.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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KeithC
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 22:55
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I'm pretty dedicated to working soley on our projects, even though I get offers for paid work once in a blue moon. Not that I don't need the money, but I recognize if I don't concentrate on one serious project at a time I can get easily bogged down and accomplish nothing in the process.

I'm definately not a very good multi-tasker (coupled with family time and other responsabilities outside of game-making). The flip-side of the coin is the modeler getting screwed. I've seen many artists commit to a project, only to have the coders bail on them for a pay project elsewhere.

Something ahs to pay the bills, and if that means resorting to high-poly models for architectural visualization; then that's just the way it is.

Someday when the projects are at a steady pace, and I can handle the additional work, I'd like to start a small custom media setup. It's just difficult being the only artist in the group, and having to cover virtually all aspects of graphics.

-Keith



Ozark Games
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Fallout
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 22:56
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@Miguel Melo

rofl. Never was a post more true.

There are some modellers who make free models for people to use too .... like, nice tables, and a cupboard and a sword ... an apple, some people even make a few guns. Some of these are really high quality.

So, as coders, we can now make a game where a cupboard holds a sword and attacks an apple with an AK, all based on a table. Absolutely bloody great.

I think there is a mentality "I fancy making a sword" or "I feel like making a gun" with many 3D modellers. And ... because it's no use to them and didn't take them too much time, they release it to the community for free. Great .... except for the fact it's completely useless to pretty much everyone else aswell. If someone has the means to have fully animated characters, it's highly unlikely they're going to equip him with Sammy's freebie broadsword, when they can get their modeller (whoever this saintly person is) to make them a bespoke sword, unique to their game, in half an hour. It is totally fair enough for modellers to do whatever they hell they want, and to release whatever models they want for free onto the net, but don't delude yourself into thinking you're actually being helpful!

Jonny Ree released a free generic humanoid model a while back. That's a great freebie. Muchos respectos. But Sammy's Ironing Board model, complete with lightmap is a waste of our time. Btw, if there is a 3D modeller around here called Sammy, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about fictional Sammy. This Sammy drools and walks with a limp and dresses in drag. But even a humanoid model is useless to a coder who can't animate and UV map. I think Jonny's model was more aimed at other modellers to use as a base and learn from etc. Fair play, but no use to coders.

And in response to what Chris said ... many coders here have learnt to model, as it's the only way to get anywhere. I do everything myself, and it kills me. Constantly switching from media -> coding -> media. It's draining, and it's not feasible to do it all for anything but the simplist games.

I don't know what my point is again now. I'm not having a go at modellers. How can I? It's a hobby at the end of the day. We can do whatever the hell we like! It's just a shame we're not motivated by the same goals.


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KeithC
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 23:07
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Quote: "but don't delude yourself into thinking you're actually being helpful!"

Gee thanks; that's really motivating.



Ozark Games
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Fallout
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 23:20
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That wasn't directed at you chap. FPS Creator packs to enhance a product that already has the media required to make a game ... great. and ideal. Model packs for other platforms can be useful, but then again, only if you can fill in the rest of the blanks with media of the same style.

It is generous to give away freebies and it is commendable, I just wonder how useful it is to people.


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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 23:29
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I've been somewhat lucky. Originaly, I was an artist. I got into coding as a way to showcase my art. Unfortunately for my art skills, I loved coding so much that I never turned back. I now would consider myself a MUCH better coder than artist, but I probably have more raw talent as an artist than a coder.
I really hope to release my character making application someday in the not too distant future. I think it could go a long way to helping people to work on projects by themselves. I hope to get back into actually making games someday. I've never tried to join a team and would love to try it sometime.

EZrotate! TextureMax! Enhanced Animations! (coming soon....) 3D Character Maker! (coming soon....)
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KeithC
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 23:32
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Well, the last time I looked we've had several thousand downloads altogether; add to that several hundred downloads out of Turbosquid and the3DStudio.com. I'd say they're of use to a large group of people; especially as placeholders.

I always hear about people needing some sort of art to use to visualize their game...in order to attract serious artists. If you tell me that the red sphere represents the evil dragon, and the green cube represents the knight; I can then visualize what the game will look like, and see what you have done with your coding.

I do agree about making sure anything you make, blends in; or is generic enough to blend in with many types of game projects. Then there's the apple or cup model you were talking about; someone may only need a cup or apple model to complete their scene. If there is only one or two artists; they'll be looking for all the shortcuts they can get.

I realize that your comments probably weren't directed at me; but it does take time to make something to put up for free (and in our case to host on our site), and even make it ready for a specific engine. Making a comment like the one I previously highlighted makes it less likely that the artist will continue offering media for free in the future...even when they improve greatly in their art.

-Keith



Ozark Games
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Fallout
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 23:35
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3D Character Making will be a big void filler Wolf. I remember there was that app that came out that had built in animations that you could assign to any model you import. I can't remember what its called now, but I think TGC still sell it. Combine that with your character maker and suddenly peoples worlds can finaly come alive without having to be a modeller. More animations would be ideal in that character animator program, but still, it'd be a great start.


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KeithC
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 23:45
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I've heard of some sort of "monster making" program that lets you select certain attributes to a creation. I agree though, what Wolf is talking about would be a boon the the development community.



Ozark Games
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Fallout
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Posted: 29th Nov 2006 23:51 Edited at: 29th Nov 2006 23:52
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@Keith - I understand where you're coming from, and I do believe these freebies are useful to some people. I think it depends where you're coming from though.

I personally am able to model most things, to a modeately half decent level, but not a high quality level. Therefore I have no need for placeholders, or temporary fixes. All I need is the good stuff to finish my game to a high level of polish. This is the stuff that isn't available (high quality models are available, but not of the same look and feel). This is the stuff that it's hard to find an artist to do. It's this final tier that can't be satisfied.

So, I'm sure work like yours is useful to a lot of developers. But for people trying to finish off a high quality title, it probably isn't useful as it's not bespoke/suitable to their world/of the same final quality or appearance. That's the angle I'm coming from .. the guy who can cobble something together already that looks like a game, but wants to make a properly polished title, not the guy who can't do anything but write code.

Sorry if it felt like I was attacking work that you do. I totally conceed it is useful to many. I was thinking purely from the angle of trying to finish off a high quality title, with unique characters and seemless media. That's what I want to do and that's what I can't do.


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KeithC
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 00:05
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First of all, I commend you for being able (even if its pretty overwhelming) to do everything neccesary to create a complete game; that's rather rare. I know that I have no idea as to how coding works. I can relate that "in order for this to happen, X Y and Z need to happen; but beyond that, I'm not even going to try.

Some of the things we have to offer might just fit the look of someone's nearly complete game. But, as you pointed out, it won't fill up the whole level with a complete set of content. There aren't that many sites that offer a complete game art solution for a whole game...and definately not for free. You need a dedicated artist for that. In the future when I make models/packs for sale, I try to look at what's available on the market, and make it as compatible (as far as textures) as I can; which is lucrative for me, and the buyer.

I've had the WWII Pack bought by advanced artists (Torque users) before, either to save time (as I included the UV Maps), or just to support a fellow developer.

Incidentally, I have looked at your game-in-progress before; and I have to say it's very impressive, especially coming from a "one-man show".

-Keith



Ozark Games
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Godrich13
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 01:11
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Figured I would throw in my two cents...

I am (in partnership with Mind's Eye Entertainment and Steel Works Media) planning to get together a group of people to work on an online magizine that reviews and previews Indie games and game development tools. This could be a great way to get indie games some good recognition.

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Raven
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Posted: 30th Nov 2006 01:15
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I'd personally say that the issue for teams is the trust, but this said around here the more pertinant issue is talent and attitudes.

I've worked with a number of people on these forums, only to have a good number of them bail on the projects because they've come up with their own concept and believe they can do it alone.

Those, which made it completion are few and far between. Certainly nothing I've been involved with over the past 3-4years years since DBPs release.

Also another issue is programmers just seem to expect artists to suddenly say "hey you want some help!", very few of them ever actually approach an artist, musician, etc.
When they finally do, often they offer what obviously they can't actually deliver.

As far as I'm conserned, I will work on a project if I feel it has merit or will actually be produced. When I hear a programmer say something like "well I've not coded anything yet because I need the art done first" alarm bells ring as they're not primarily working with placeholders in order to get key aspects of the engine done.

Well anyways, don't see why an indie retail site wouldn't work; just depends on how it's run (just like any other business).

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400, 512MB DDR2 667MHz, ATi Radeon X1900 XT 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista Business / XP Professional SP2
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