Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / TGC Newsletter - Issue 47 (December)

Author
Message
Richard Davey
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Apr 2002
Location: On the Jupiter Probe
Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 01:23
Hi all,



Issue 47 is now out and contains the following:

PhysX Hardware Compo Results
TGC / NVIDIA Game Dev Competition
ConvSEO for DBPro
TGC in 2007 + NVIDIA 8800 Event Video
Dark Shader Preview
Tutorial: EzRotate + free trial
Tutorial: Space Invaders, Part 3
Tutorial: Strange Forces
Tutorial: 3D Character Modeling, Part 2

And more ... check it out here:

http://www.thegamecreators.com/data/newsletter/newsletter_issue_47.html

Cheers,

Rich

Heavy on the Magick
Kevin Picone
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Jon Fletcher
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th May 2005
Location: Taunton, UK
Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 01:55
great newsletter, i enjoyed the nvidia x10 demo!


Peter H
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Feb 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 02:02 Edited at: 2nd Dec 2006 02:03
haha, Lee you are such a geek (and i mean that in a good way )

great newsletter, i'm actually excited about DX10 after watching Lee's demonstration of FPSC X10

One man, one lawnmower, plenty of angry groundhogs.
AlanC
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Sep 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 06:47
I like the front cover. Now's the time to get my dbpro

Sunflash
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Jun 2005
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 08:17 Edited at: 2nd Dec 2006 08:21
Eeeek! Will we people who still use Windows Media be able to get a copy of Lee's demonstration of FPSC X10 in WMV format? Ooh, this is soooooo exciting!

Oh, I see, I just need to update my Windows Media version

"I must tell the Queen that a robin has seen Cludd hanging about. No, thats not right. I must tell the robin that Cludd has been hanging the Queen..." -Mossflower.
David R
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 17:18
Just out of interest, who is asking the questions/holding the camera in the video? I've got a good guess, but I just wanted to know for definite

MikeS
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Dec 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 18:45 Edited at: 3rd Dec 2006 06:41
Excellent tutorials and newsletter Rich, the future is very exciting and promising for TGC!

edit: I watched the video, and am completly amazed at what I'm seeing in FPSC X10.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly Yellow)
Urlforce Studios
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 19:28
Lee in your video it said you were using Dx 9 for authoring, would we be able to author games, but not test them on a Dx 9 machine.

He said, "You drink when you're lonely." No I drink when I want!
He said, "You'll never be sober." Sure. Why would I want that?
bdgbdg
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Jul 2006
Location:
Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 20:21
Nice newsletter...
I posted on other topic, but I don't know if it is the right one so:

@TGC - Can I use one of the screens of the newsletter as the main-screen of my game? (screens of FPS Creator X10)

I hope you can answer me ASAP

Project FPS - 71%
FredP
Retired Moderator
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Feb 2006
Location: Indiana
Posted: 2nd Dec 2006 21:10
Quote: "Lee in your video it said you were using Dx 9 for authoring, would we be able to author games, but not test them on a Dx 9 machine."


My impression was you could test them but it would be at a VERY slow framerate.

David iz cool
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Sep 2005
Location: somewhere lol :P
Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 02:19
wow! lots of cool things happening! thanks Richard!
RickV
TGC Development Director
24
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Apr 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 10:25
Hi,

David R: It's me holding the camera and asking Lee questions.

bdgbdg: You cannot use any FPSC X10 screens in your game, they are (c) material of TGC.

Rick

Financial Director
TGC Team
[Check out Jed McKenna - http://www.wisefoolpress.com/]
Jon Fletcher
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th May 2005
Location: Taunton, UK
Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 16:20
if it is at all possible to recall, what spec machine were you guys testing X10 on? it looked like a bunch of XPS's yet still ran pretty slow


Steve J
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 19:05
That is because it is directx 9. He already explained that.

http://phoenixophelia.com

Steve J, less, and less Controversial!
Sunflash
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Jun 2005
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posted: 4th Dec 2006 03:24
Hmmm, I just downloaded the newest Windows Media version, but it still says that either the video format isn't supported, or the codec used to make the file isn't supported. Is anyone else getting this?

"I must tell the Queen that a robin has seen Cludd hanging about. No, thats not right. I must tell the robin that Cludd has been hanging the Queen..." -Mossflower.
Chris K
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Oct 2003
Location: Lake Hylia
Posted: 4th Dec 2006 10:49
You have to love Lee's accent...

Who's Luke?

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
spooky
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 4th Dec 2006 11:06
WMP does not support mp4 files unless you can find a codec for it and most people are trying to sell it aswell.

Download the latest Quicktime and it plays it just fine.

Boo!
Miguel Melo
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Aug 2005
Location:
Posted: 4th Dec 2006 12:13
Quote: "You have to love Lee's accent..."


I noticed that but being a foreigner myself I can't quite place it. Is it from somewhere up North?

I have vague plans for World Domination
BatVink
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Apr 2003
Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 4th Dec 2006 13:14
Lancashire - Wigan to be precise.
The amazing thing is, if you wander East for about 30 miles where I live, the accent changes completely in Yorkshire. They are 2 of the broadest accents in the country, and yet so close geographically.



indi
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 4th Dec 2006 13:42
I cant wait for soft shadows and massive amounts of monsters from the new pipeline setup.
8800 and vista here we go.

BatVink
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Apr 2003
Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 4th Dec 2006 14:34
Is it just me, or has anyone else being playing Sheepdog with Grant's demo?



Peter H
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Feb 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posted: 4th Dec 2006 15:33
Quote: "Is it just me, or has anyone else being playing Sheepdog with Grant's demo?"

what! haha, that's what i was doing to!

trying to herd all the rebellious little buggers into a corner... etc.. lol

One man, one lawnmower, plenty of angry groundhogs.
Jon Fletcher
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th May 2005
Location: Taunton, UK
Posted: 4th Dec 2006 15:47
Quote: "That is because it is directx 9. He already explained that.
"


what, so the upgrade of a driver makes THAT much difference?


BatVink
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Apr 2003
Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 4th Dec 2006 16:42
Quote: "what, so the upgrade of a driver makes THAT much difference?"


If you listen to what's being said, you'll hear that the answer is most definitely yes. That's the whole point - the entire pipeline has been scrapped and left open to the developer to implement as they see fit.

In the DX9 demo, they are tied to what DirectX thinks is the best way to do things, which is wrong for the largest percentage of scenarios.



dark coder
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2002
Location: Japan
Posted: 4th Dec 2006 16:43
DX10 isn't an upgraded driver, it's a complete rewrite from what I understand, since it's a rewrite they can obviously perfect and optimize things like shaders now in ways they hadn't have considered before, and I saw the video, was that all in dx9 then? and lee was just stating what will be faster when using dx10? or does my memory suck.

Hallowed are the ori.
BatVink
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Apr 2003
Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 4th Dec 2006 17:19 Edited at: 4th Dec 2006 17:19
Yup, he was basically saying you can have all this stuff - fresnel shaders, reflection, realtime cubemaps, shadows et al - at 60 FPS!

The video obviously needs subtitles for non-Pennine dwellers



Ron Erickson
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Dec 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Posted: 4th Dec 2006 18:18
I just FINALLY watched the video. Very cool stuff. I am looking forward to seeing where things go in the next couple of years.

EZrotate! TextureMax! Enhanced Animations! (coming soon....) 3D Character Maker! (coming soon....)
Sunflash
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Jun 2005
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posted: 4th Dec 2006 19:39
Quote: "Quote: "Is it just me, or has anyone else being playing Sheepdog with Grant's demo?"
what! haha, that's what i was doing to!

trying to herd all the rebellious little buggers into a corner... etc.. lol"


Lol! Me too! It was to addicting not too

"I must tell the Queen that a robin has seen Cludd hanging about. No, thats not right. I must tell the robin that Cludd has been hanging the Queen..." -Mossflower.
Jon Fletcher
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th May 2005
Location: Taunton, UK
Posted: 5th Dec 2006 12:19
Quote: "That's the whole point - the entire pipeline has been scrapped and left open to the developer to implement as they see fit.
"


oh ok sorry, i sometimes drift in and out of things

certainly looks very interesting though.


Raven
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 6th Dec 2006 03:57
I was excited about the video, to see what is comming.
After watching it though a penny kinda dropped for me...

Something that has annoyed me over the years with DarkBASIC Professional, is that the product ever step of the way has been designed around the engine rather than the language.

More to the point of this, the engine is being developed by possibly a very good application programmers; but this could perhaps what is causing the most unrest here. TGC are by no means game developers themselves, and even more to the point I very much doubt that any of them are really gamer themselves at heart.

Sure, the change from DirectX9 to DirectX10 is probably forcing TGC to approach development of their graphics pipeline from a very different direction; there is still a huge question of "have they learnt some lessons" or are they once again going to rely on technology to bolster performance gaps.

From the impression I got from the video, the latter is almost certainly true. Lee over and over again claims aspects that are DirectX10 only because of performance reasons over DirectX9... however honestly if you ever doubt that DirectX9 is capable of on mid-range hardware take a good hard look at Gears of War.
The graphics processor it's running is fairly close performance-wise to the X1600XT, even a cheap $100 X1900 XTX can out-perform it; what consoles are calling next-generation games, PC owners have had the power there for almost 3years now.

I mean you think you'll be seeing all that at 60fps in FPSC X10, think again; unless Lee decides to actually upgrade Sync 30 to Sync 60. Honestly to see him show the screen saying "20fps is quite a good framerate" had me chringing.
Games should be running faster than 60fps and then tapped so that that it only refreshes that quickly without affecting the engine refresh.

What is truely next-generation with DirectX10, aren't the effects of old like Bloom, HDR (now built-in to all Gen7 Cards) or Field of Depth (hell Perfect Dark for N64 had that) ... instead what is impressive about it is the new Geometry Shader.

The ability to maintain a global light system. Link all shaders through a common program. Create or destroy geometry on the fly with little performance overhead, but more importantly in an interactive way with the rest of your engine. So say you want to create something similar to when a Beserker crashes through pillars in Gears of War.
In Gears of War itself, it's done by using what's called a "FlipMesh" where the solid mesh is replaced with one that has parts pre-cut for breaking up. To get around the constant repetitive nature of this GOW uses 2-3 'damage' models that are then accessed through the physics engine (havok iirc), which then looks amazing in the DX9 shader pipeline.

In DirectX10 however, there would be no need to have several extra models. You can just create the geometry and plug-in the physics system (Havok or HavokFX) which then will run in tandum with the graphics pipeline to destroy the model in a realistic fashion.

With most of the new technology in DirectX10 it isn't the fact of programmable graphics pipelines; again we've had those for a few years not, but the interactive nature of them now. It's no longer a case that you need a shader pipeline and/or main pipeline; but the entire system is now a single system that interacts and uses the hardware as needed.

Sure there is a performance increase that can be found in this, but the more important aspect is the control that programmers now have over their scenes. This is however a double edged sword, because with more power comes more to do, and more to know.

Yes, DX10 is a step forward.. but honestly nothing of what Lee talked about isn't possible at a reasonable performance speed in DX9. There are many aspects that DX10 has, which literally aren't possible in DX9 and won't be appearing in DX9.L/DX9Ex (designed to bridge the gap for XP users) but none of that appears to have been used in FPSC X10.

Vista Beta and DirectX10 have been available since last November to companies, so not running it on DX10 is very bizzare. Although I can understand why there's no DX10 SM4 aspects, as it was for the launch of the first DX10 SM4 card; just honestly don't understand why it wasn't DX10 and Vista itself.

Just my thoughts on the video.

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400, 512MB DDR2 667MHz, ATi Radeon X1900 XT 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista Business / XP Professional SP2
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 6th Dec 2006 04:17 Edited at: 6th Dec 2006 04:22
Quote: "In DirectX10 however, there would be no need to have several extra models. You can just create the geometry and plug-in the physics system (Havok or HavokFX) which then will run in tandum with the graphics pipeline to destroy the model in a realistic fashion."

I don't think that all of your terminology or theories are correct. It depends on how you want to destroy the model. With DarkPhysics, I disassemble some models in real time, creating physics bodies with the limbs. This is not ideal for all models, and certainly not ideal for real time vertex manipulation. If they are disassembled incorrectly then they will look bad. In addition, the resulting number of debris parts might be excessive.

The 2-3 model approach is ideal because it allows you total control over what is created, and it allows you to properly manage the resources. 10,000 pieces of debris gives no advantage over 1000 pieces of debris. All it will do is bog down the game.

DX 10 will certainly give DBP, and indie coders, an advantage. DX 10 will allow us to interface with all of this new technology correctly. Shaders are slow in DBP. With 10, they'll be fast. I'm happy with the language. I'll certainly be happy when the language gets a new technological boost.


Come see the WIP!
Raven
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 6th Dec 2006 11:28
Quote: "The 2-3 model approach is ideal because it allows you total control over what is created, and it allows you to properly manage the resources. 10,000 pieces of debris gives no advantage over 1000 pieces of debris. All it will do is bog down the game."


I'm not saying that it would create several hundred or thousand model parts; you would still have the control to determine the depth at which the geometry and stress would be able to work at.

That would then be down to the programmer and spec system really.
The geometry shader just allows the interaction to provide such support.. for example with Ageia PhysX, one of the programmers from Naughty Dog showed a colomn they created that was entirely machine driven and destroyable using CUDA. It was impressive, as it seemed to test for stress points; at the maximum stress it sets the model stress points and cuts it along the line... building then crumbled in a fairly realistic mannor like a 'break-up' model but was entirely different each time it was destroyed.

Quote: "DX 10 will certainly give DBP, and indie coders, an advantage. DX 10 will allow us to interface with all of this new technology correctly. Shaders are slow in DBP. With 10, they'll be fast. I'm happy with the language. I'll certainly be happy when the language gets a new technological boost."


Honestly I wish I could have the same sort of optimism over this.. but frankly the shader performance is down to the coders not the API being used.

Play a game called Prenumbre-Overture.com, in that you will see some very good shader performance in DirectX9.0c; many of the aspects that Lee claimed were only possible at a reasonable speed in DX10 are working in that using DX9 and run very happily even on the budget cards like the FX5200 reknown for it's poor Shader performance. Only thing it doesn't impliment that is in FPSC X10 is instancing, but then that's in DX9.0c and again even with the budget hardware like the FX5200 there is almost ZERO performance overhead from this technique until you hit over 4,096 objects; but this is due to the shader limitations.

Not saying that DX10 isn't impressive or that DBPro "Vista" won't benefit, but there are some fairly major conserns I have that TGC will be able to impliment it any better than they have with DX9.

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400, 512MB DDR2 667MHz, ATi Radeon X1900 XT 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista Business / XP Professional SP2
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 6th Dec 2006 12:14
You seem to forget, DBP is inexpensive and allows individual programmers to quickly create games that would take much longer using other development tools. We lose a little power, but it's better than never actually producing a full game. DX10 will level the playing field a little bit more. The parts that matter will run faster, pure and simple.

DBPs language is fine. The only disadvantage is the speed loss, and this will largely fix it.


Come see the WIP!
BatVink
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Apr 2003
Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 6th Dec 2006 13:09
Quote: "We lose a little power, but it's better than never actually producing a full game"


Nicely put

Quote: "DX10 will level the playing field a little bit more"


Personally, I think it will be the opposite. We're looking at what is in games now, and thinking it will be possible with DX10. Unfortunately the big game companies will plough ridiculous amounts of money in pushing DX10 to the limits, meaning they get far more out of it and push the envelope further than we ever will.



Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 6th Dec 2006 13:45 Edited at: 6th Dec 2006 13:53
Professional games now are light years beyond us right now. I play my own FPS and I feel very proud of what I did. Then I play Scarface and I feel like a moron. It's so much more advanced that it's not even worth comparing. When people that I know see my website, they like what they see with Geisha House, but the question always comes up - Have I seen Oblivion? Now the the Agiea license has changed, I'm integrating DarkPhysics into the game. There's no way I can bridge the gap, but I absolutely must take advantage of what I have.

Sure, professional game developers will push the envelope even further. But, our games will have more capacity. We'll have more bandwidth to dedicate to polish and effects, and the games will look better. Games don't have to be perfect, they have to be fun and look good.

One thing that it will do is widen the gap between indie developers. Some games will look just the same as they do now, others will look amazing.


Come see the WIP!
LeeBamber
TGC Lead Developer
24
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Jan 2000
Location: England
Posted: 6th Dec 2006 14:59
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the comments on X10, and I am glad you like my accent, it's Wiganese, born and bred Some responses for ya:

@sunflash : I had the same problem recently, and found a free codec pack called Mega Codec Pack (or similar) which replaces your current collection with an army of just about every codec out there. See if you can find it - it's free

@darkcoder : It's not a 100% rewrite, it throws away about 50% of the DirectX 9.0 specific lower levels, but I get to keep the FVF handling from DX9 so I can keep DBP compatibility for the next generation of DBPro. This means your DX9 DBO files will load in DX10, and your knowledge of FVF will not have gone to waste and I feel its a good way to describe vertex formats. I am taking the opportunity to sort out the issue of render pipelines, and how objects are sorted before they are rendered (for pure speed). Also, with the introduction of 'alpha coverage' you no longer need to depth sort your transparent objects in DX10

@raven : Although it might have read as 'lee bashing', you make many good points about the power of DX9. I also feel it could be exploited more within the DBP engine. The decision to start DX10 development was triggered by the opportunity to be one of the first game making tools out for Vista, and that's an acclaim I would very much like to achieve. We only started X10 development recently because, believe it or not, we are a very small company and was not recognised enough as a key developer to get DX10 hardware back in 2005. Somehow, TGC was granted a bit of limelight and we got help from NVIDIA to start DX10 development pre-launch. Even if hardware was available to us, I still think we would have remained focused on FPSC and DBPro bug fixes during 2005. Who knows for how long TGC will be looked upon favourably by the powers that be, so we are taking the opportunity to make a very big splash on Vista. As to whether we get 60FPS with everything switched on under DirectX10, no one knows. There is only one way to find out I can say that the new pipeline is a perfect mirror for all the techniques Microsoft and NVIDIA would have me do to create a fast DX10 engine, and my overriding goals are to get lots of character running at you in a great FPS game at 60fps. Technology is nice, but great gameplay is the most important. That said, there are so many 'new' things that DirectX 9 simply CANNOT do such as reading depth buffer data back from a render target, allowing you to create soft particles that do not intersect geometry, or rendering to multiple targets with a single draw call. These are the building blocks of X10, and it is exciting to code for. At the end of the day, DirectX 9 is great, and DirectX 10 is greater. No doubt DirectX 11 will be the greatest and so forth. Could I re-write the DBP engine in DirectX 9 and make it better, yes. Should I? That's the question. The answer will be different for everyone. For myself, and my friends at TGC, the answer is 'no, lets produce a tool that lets anyone make a DirectX 10 game before the seasoned developers, and lets get it out the door as soon as we can'. The good news is that FPSC is already written, and tested, and simply requires a 3D engine swap-out, so we have the advantage here. And as a bonus, we will also be updating the DirectX 9 version of FPSC with new technolgoy as we go, so everyone wins. Another cool 'only for vista' is the new implementation of the INSTANCE OBJECT command, which is working now in DBP X10. Unlike DirectX 9, the instances can have their own textures applies using a texture array, so a single draw call can render a thousand crates in your scene, each create using an alternative texture, positioned, rotated and scaled anywhere in your scene. The CPU has one draw call to worry about, and the new DirectX 10 GPU takes your request and performs it 'ridiculously fast'.

When you think about the construction of a scene, how many dynamic elements are often variations of the same object, imagine how GPU instancing will populate the games of 2007! They say almost all games are CPU bound, and the GPU is often left sitting idle. I am particularly interested while working on X10 to see if I cannot give the GPU something to worry about! I am looking forward to seeing how many crates I can instance before I drop below 60FPS on a G8800, after all, it will all be on the GPU so in theory I could draw quite a few

"Small, smart, and running around the legs of dinosaurs to find enough food to survive, bedroom programmers aren't extinct after all "
RickV
TGC Development Director
24
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Apr 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 6th Dec 2006 15:00 Edited at: 6th Dec 2006 15:38
@ Cash Curtis II

Don't be so hard on yourself.

1 develop vs 50 developers is no contest!

Be proud and also consider the complexity and cost of what the big boys do. Imagine paying 50 people each month for 2-3 years in the hope you will make a profit.

Rick

Financial Director
TGC Team
[Check out Jed McKenna - http://www.wisefoolpress.com/]
RickV
TGC Development Director
24
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Apr 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 6th Dec 2006 16:48
I'll be making a new video for the next Newsletter - it'll show Lee showing off what his DX10 code is doing!

Financial Director
TGC Team
[Check out Jed McKenna - http://www.wisefoolpress.com/]
Raven
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 7th Dec 2006 11:45
It's not Lee bashing so much, it's more a note on the direction that the decisions taken at TGC seem to take.

Don't get me wrong being the first development system (cept perhaps Torque) to take advantage of DirectX10 is a definate bonus as well as the temporary partnetship with NVIDIA. It should all go to help establish TGC as a more dominant and recognised position in the game development market. This said I don't think that focus should be made entire on a single market like seems to be.

Right now TGC really has on it's hands too many products across to many markets to successfully handle with the current size of the company. Business-wise it's a sound decision to expand, but you have to admit that as a programmer your becomming more stretched to what you can actually work on at one time.

I mean fully development companies have 7-10x the staff members actually working on a single development product.
Right now TGC has what 4 programmers working on delivering an SDK, DirectX9, DirectX10 and FPSCreator.

Something has to be basically put on a backburner or atleast have development cut-down while the other products are being worked on to maintain a reasonable Time-To-Market schedule. What's more is because there are so many products being worked on the main focus is never really 100% because at the back of your mind no doubt you do something in another product and think "well this works in DirectX10, so what if I did such-n-such and we could get similar results in DirectX9"... the distraction can cause the quality of the products to fall behind.

Issues with the SDK, particularly updates saw it being left behind in terms of upgrades and I don't think the engine was ever developed in a way so that it would be expanded in to other markets than it's original use with DBPro itself. Especially when you think of the fact it realistically only works if the developers are using the Visual Studio 6-8 environments.
(8 having only recently being added and supported)

Althought I can understand that DirectX10 is an exciting new development, for the moment there are no cards except the GeForce 8800 on the market (or planned for release within the next 3-6months) that support DirectX10s enhanced features fully. So we're still working with a Shader3.0 Generation of cards for the next fiscal year really.

Would like to see, TGC properly expand in terms of programmers. So that each team can provide their full attention to the jobs at hand. I mean with DBPro when you were all working on DarkPhysics, there was a definately slow down in development itself; and the bug-weeks were obviously designed to combat this, but it's not an ideal solution working yourselves so hard for so long. Something will end up suffering.

Since DBPro has hit the market you may have noticed I've aired a number of conserns about the fact that new technology has been incorporated without the core functionality of the products being developed to a point where you can consider it 'stable' compared to competitor products. I think with XNA Game Studio now being developed by Microsoft and due out in March 2007, this adds a new consern to the hobbyist developer market. One that for a while now it's safe to say that TGC has had a monopoly on.

It's all about working smarter and not harder. Investments for the future can lead to show that TGC is serious about becoming larger so they can properly support the fairly large market they currently serve.

As far as DirectX9 goes, although sure DirectX10 is far superior; remember the market currently being served is DirectX9. What really needs to be worked on is an engine that can switch between both environments and provide the loss of only those enhancements DirectX10 provides.

Sured it'll mean redeveloping the DirectX9 engine from the ground up, however I'm sure given the differences between the APIs you're having to do this anyway to support DirectX10.

Also fully believe that a change to DarkBASIC Professional and the way the engine is created would seriously help. A linker system and developing functions to link down to 'exactly' what is needed from libraries using the COFF system that most C-based languages use would greatly improve executable size and filter much of the redundant code.

Providing 2-forms of runtime, one which includes debugging and one which is for retail uses again would help. Right now I get a strong feeling that the libraries themselves are not designed around a Template Library, but it's designed around expanding as and when it's deemed necessary. With a template system, it is far easier to layer and abstract what is being used; this helps for debugging but also you can then build upon a stable system so it's only the final link in the chain that needs altering rather than constant changes to the engine itself.

More complicated code for the development team, but better end-result for the users. Think about how DirectX10 is now designed, honestly provides a much better end result because rather than finding that each time you call say a shader it's accessing it's own render draw call, you've already got the draw call routine created and all it's doing is calling it once when everything is complete - the data being added is being placed in a buffer so that it can all be handled at once. The queue itself is different to the data being stored, which is then called-on-demand and commited only when necessary.

Microsoft still unfortunately use the commit-all system for Windows, which is irritating cause you have to manually create the CoD system but it does help to keep physical memory useage to what is actually necessary as well as retaining performance; especially when reading from static media (i.e. Optical Drive).

TGC has so much potencial, just from what I can tell isn't really being managed correctly to provide what the company wants to. Constantly learning the new technologies certainly isn't helping this either.

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400, 512MB DDR2 667MHz, ATi Radeon X1900 XT 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista Business / XP Professional SP2
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 7th Dec 2006 11:56
Quote: "TGC has so much potencial, just from what I can tell isn't really being managed correctly to provide what the company wants to. Constantly learning the new technologies certainly isn't helping this either."

That's definitely TGC bashing.

If we don't learn the new technologies, we'll get left in the dust. So will TGC. This is not an industry in which you can afford to be idle. And, TGC has to make new products to keep making money. People want things that are at least current or next generation.

TGC is doing fine by me. They continue to make new, useful, game making products. I keep buying them. I'm a very picky buyer, so they can't be doing all that bad. And, the products they make are good.

How exactly is TGC adversely effecting you Raven? Are they somehow interfering with a project you are working on? I don't see a problem. I'll continue to drive on with DX9 for now. In about a year I'll change over to 10 with a totally new project. Whining about having to learn new things won't change a single thing.


Come see the WIP!
Raven
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 7th Dec 2006 12:37
Don't get me wrong, I fully believe that DirectX10 is the future for PC Gaming... just feel that over the past few years TGC has 'invested' in the future without considering many major aspects.

Learning new technolgies is a good thing, but not at the cost of the community ending up being basically paying beta testers. I would never look to integrate a system in to a product that someone was paying for without learning it properly first.

I mean let's say you were working on a website for a client, and you know PHP4 extremely well; but PHP5 was released, which their Server supports. Would you instantly start using PHP5 or continue to use PHP4 and upgrade to PHP5 once you've learnt the differences and enchancements in properly?

This is the main point I'm trying to make. Just look at how TGC currently impliment shaders in to DBPro.

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400, 512MB DDR2 667MHz, ATi Radeon X1900 XT 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista Business / XP Professional SP2
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 7th Dec 2006 12:59
The shader implementation seems a bit clunky. I have few other real complaints about DBP. Even the shaders aren't that bad, you just have to be reasonable and conservative and you can achieve professional effects in your game.

I'll likely buy the DX10 version as soon as it comes out. However, I won't seriously invest time into it for about a year (as in, base a full project on it). This isn't because I doubt the product. DX10, and compatible cards, will just take some time to filter down to game players. By the time I'm ready for it, I should be totally ready to use it.

If we don't learn the new stuff, we'll get stuck in the past. The only thing that you can do with old technology is join a club of angry old computer nerds that bash Bill Gates and play CGA games while reminiscing about the good old days. No thanks.


Come see the WIP!
Raven
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 7th Dec 2006 14:16
The shader implimentation is just the tip of the iceberg for me... but I know it's something most of the users will be aware of.

a more pressing issue for me, conserning Professional is the language itself and how while it now is stand-alone in terms of functionality; it's still built requiring users to have a single API rather than the language actually standing alone.

personally I was hoping that Professional being able to create executables and compiling to machine code over interpreted opcode was going to mean the language could be stand-alone and then extended with libraries... instead the language is constantly ignored in favour of the engine.

I don't give a flying monkies about the shader system, as I could program that as a TPC myself; as long as I have a language that allows me to utilise pointers, pass data i/o of functions on every level not just standardised data-types and also interact with COFF compatible libraries.

to me PureBasic is effectively what I had hoped DarkBASIC Professional was going to be.. just wish I could stand the syntax in that language as then I would've simply moved on a few years back when it was introduced.

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400, 512MB DDR2 667MHz, ATi Radeon X1900 XT 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista Business / XP Professional SP2
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 7th Dec 2006 16:15
Well, I guess that's the main difference here. You want a prettier language, I want a functional language with the most powerful engine that they can supply.

Essentially, they have a set amount of time to work on any given product. They can dedicate more time to the language, or to the engine, in the case of DBP. If they put the engine development off in favor of the language, then the result will be less power. The power of the core engine is what really matters here, as the language is extraordinarily easy to use.

The less limited the engine is, the better. Code can be worked around. The 3D engine cannot. I'd rather spend an hour figuring out how to creatively solve a problem then have the answer given to me on a less powerful system.

All that aside - the language is ridiculously simple. Any limitations can be made up for with a plugin. Want arrays inside of arrays? No problem, use LUA, or Torrey's free plugin. It goes on and on. At the core of DBP, we have such simplicity, such as "Load Object" and "Turn Object Left".

I consider myself a good programmer. However, if I built my own 3D engine from the ground up, I don't know if it would be as fast as DBP, and I'd waste at least a year doing it. TGC has essentially taken care of all that messy work. DBP is a choice, and a good one for indie developers. If it makes you so unhappy Raven, there are other choices. For me, it's great.


Come see the WIP!
BatVink
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Apr 2003
Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 7th Dec 2006 16:49
Quote: "Code can be worked around. The 3D engine cannot. "


I second that, I've said it many times before, and I'll keep saying it. Some of the requests you see for new commands are downright laziness. Sure, some commands would make life a lot easier, but at the same time you only have to write a function once. A function is for life, not just for Christmas



Zappo
Valued Member
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Oct 2004
Location: In the post
Posted: 7th Dec 2006 17:01 Edited at: 7th Dec 2006 17:02
Except this one:
Raven
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 7th Dec 2006 17:25
I'm begining to have serious doubts to people knowing the difference between an engine and a programming language.

This isn't a case of wanting a "prettier" language, but one that is better equipped for programming in general. The engine should then be there to provide a system for the simplified games development.

Quote: "Code can be worked around. The 3D engine cannot."


Using the TPC System, anyone can make a replacement 3D System in DirectX9/10/OpenGL... that's all engine based, the language can't *always* be worked around in the same mannor.

If you say "well if you want such'n'such then use LUA" but if I was using LUA then I'm not longer programming in DarkBASIC Professional and just utilising the Engine. If I wanted to do that then hell I might as well just be using DarkGDK in Visual C++.. defeats the entire damn point in DBP now doesn't it?

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400, 512MB DDR2 667MHz, ATi Radeon X1900 XT 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista Business / XP Professional SP2
Ron Erickson
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Dec 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Posted: 7th Dec 2006 17:25
Quote: "TGC has so much potencial, just from what I can tell isn't really being managed correctly to provide what the company wants to. "


While I am sure that TGC welcomes input from the users of it's products, this statement is downright silly. TGC are doing a FINE job of managing their direction. It is easy to sit as an outsider and second guess certain things. Anyone can do that. Maintaining a business in such a competitve, limited market would not be easy. Few could do that.
Every year TGC seems to grow it's presence. That wouldn't be done if it was being managed incorrectly.

EZrotate! TextureMax! Enhanced Animations! (coming soon....) 3D Character Maker! (coming soon....)
RickV
TGC Development Director
24
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Apr 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 7th Dec 2006 17:49
Tell me about it...

TGC are doing well and can do better - we recognise that.

We learn from past mistakes and aim to improve all products.

If we had lots of funds then maybe we would create multiple projects a t the same time.

It all takes time!

Financial Director
TGC Team
[Check out Jed McKenna - http://www.wisefoolpress.com/]

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-18 02:27:06
Your offset time is: 2024-11-18 02:27:06