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Geek Culture / Yet another violent games study, but this one isn't good!

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 03:35
On MSN.com today there was an article titled Teen Brains Changed by Violent Video Games. I read it, wondering if this were (A) another credible, non-biased study that confirms that violent video games have no negative effects on players, or (B) a completely biased and slanted "study" presented just to take cheap stabs at our industry. Apparently, it was neither of the above.

A quick exerpt from the article:
Quote: "a new brain-imaging study from Indiana University—the first of its kind—suggests that playing violent videogames may indeed change the way a person feels and acts. In the study, released Tuesday at the at the annual meeting of the Radiological Society of North America, researchers found that teenagers who played a violent videogame exhibited increased activity in a part of the brain that governs emotional arousal. The same teens showed decreased activity in the parts of the brain involved in focus, inhibition and concentration. The study randomly assigned 44 physically and psychologically normal 13- to 17-year-old boys and girls (with boys outnumbering girls more than two to one) to two groups. One group played a violent wartime videogame for a half hour while the other played a nonviolent, car-chase video game. Researchers then used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to look at the kids’ brains."


The non-violent game was Need for Speed: Underground. The violent game was Medal of Honor: Frontline. Besides these games being obviously dated, there's a few problems I have with this study. First off, what platform were the games played on? Both were made for various platforms, and I'm willing to bet a minute amount of content was different on each. But more important is that these games are both pretty moderate. NFSU isn't violent, but the sheer fact that they referred to it as a "car chasing game" tells me that someone at Indiana University didn't do their homework (I have this game for PC and PS2). And while Frontline is moderately violent, it doesn't show blood and guts and all of that fun stuff (I played and beat the PS2 version of it). Right there, I think the study is a bit slanted. Shouldn't they have used proper variants? Like, say, Mario Party and Halflife 2? I'd love to see the data they collected from this "study."

Or am I wrong in thinking this study is faulted? Does it actually make sense to use two very moderate games, one of which that features cartoon-ish, non-realistic violence at best? What do you guys (and girls of course) have to say about this study? And please, I'd prefer it if this didn't turn into another debate on violent video games... probably a tall order but at least I'm trying, hehe. Anyway, what do you guys think of the study?


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Lucifer
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 03:44
Quote: "may indeed change the way a person feels and acts"


that's true, when i plaid guildwars for a week or two i started to think like "damn, i need 1000g for doritos, i need to go farm and sell stuff." then i realised what i was thinking...



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indi
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 03:49
first of all, one study from anywhere isnt conclusive to all aspects of a complex situation. sometimes fear mongering bubbles up from even the scientific institutions from inconclusive or shoddy experiement guidlines to acheive anything they want.

Violence is part of humanity and is reflected/ glorified in computer entertainment because of a demand from purchasers.
Its taboo in a civilised society and becomes a taboo addiction, ever played postal2?

A natural competition within each of us knows it cant hurt us if we are sane to begin with. <--Note "Sane to begin with", The violence in the game could trigger a mind set, but only if one was lacking in the fundamentals of normal usage and thought patterns to start with.

that said : any repetitive simulation of gore and violence would in time make you less sensitive to the elemenets you have watched time and time again.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 03:56
That was just suspension of disbelief though. If some people submerse themselves in a variant reality for a long time, they'll come out of it thinking and acting entirely differently, as if they were still in that alternate reality. some games can have that effect on certain people if they play the games for an extremely long period of time. But the person's morality stays intact in these instances, so long as they're mentally stable, and I've seen quite a few reports that have indicated that.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 04:03
I see a few problems with it. First with such a small pool of people a mere 2 individuals can skew the results drastically. with 22 in each group 2 people equals just about 10% so if they have less activity in one place and more in another (which might be normal for them while eating chees for all we know, they can call this a big increase.

second problem with it is these kids may be psyhologically and physically normal(where do those stats come from by the way) but it certainly does not mean they will all react the same way to anything. I am sure these people knew what they were being tested for and that can affect the results also. Had they had all the people play both games for a longer period of time and said they were testing to see if controllers can give people carpal tunnel and give them an mri after each one I would find the results a little more credible.

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Raven
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 04:25
Quote: "Yet another violent games study, but this one isn't good!"


yeah, cause the last few have shown the great and positive roles that violent games place on our society.

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Krilik
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 04:27
All the study was trying to prove is that video games stimulate an emotional arousal. There's not even an arugment to that because its almost obvious. Other forms of media do, like movies and books. Video games wouldn't be any different.
Agent Dink
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 04:53
That's a pretty stupid study if you ask me. Of course if you play a violent game you are going to stimulate aggressive emotions, you can't run through a level looking for butterflies and smelling flowers. You have to pretend your there, you have to get the first shot in a firefight or you might not make it. But what they need to do is compare these emotions to someone doing exactly whats happening in the game (unfortunately it would end in someone's death in this case) I am quite sure that the amount of aggressive emotion from the violent game is FAR LESS than if one was actually in WW2 fighting Japanese soldiers on an island in the Pacific Ocean.

In fact earlier today the fact that Saddam Hussein is probably going to get his death penalty in a few weeks came up in a conversation. I think it was decided he is gonna be hanged. Someone asked me if they televised it, would I watch it. I think I probably wouldn't want to. I play tons of violent games. It's simply not the same thing to see someone die for real or someone die in a game. It's not even comparable no matter how brutal the game is. If I did watch I know I'd feel rather odd seeing someones life wiped out no matter what the person did.

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Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 06:00
There is something I really can't stand about certain people that want to ban violent videogames.

I consider myself the average gamer--- not too weird but also not too fragile.

In my life I've played countless violent games, starting in '91 with Wolf3D and up until now with games like the GTA series and Call of Duty.

But a while back a friend sent me a link to one of "those" sites that show decapitations, people splattered on the roads from jumping off high rises, dead people in pits, etc. and I felt kinda sick after. There is no way in hell the feelings are similar-- i.e. violence in games (fiction) and non-fiction violence.

The same could arguably be said with violent movies. While I can stomach the best of them (Goodfellas, House of 1000 Corpses, etc.), I know how to separate the fake from the real.

I would strongly consider that 90% of your average male gamers are the same. 5-10% however have brain issues or psychosis problems where it may affect them differently. But banning an entire thing because a small subset of people abuse it? That would be like banning alcohol because of drunk drivers, or banning board games because of OCD sufferers.

FredP
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 07:19
I used to play Pac-Man when I was growing up but I never went to school and ate anybody...
Video games are just society's latest scapegoat to blame all the problems on.
Over the years it's been books,movies,music or something else.
If someone is disturbed and they do something stupid or horrific they were going to do it anyways.
I saw the story on TV (I live in central Indiana) and even the guy who was running the study said one study was not conclusive enough.
I am over 18 and I can play whatever kind of games I want.
If the government doesn't like it they can pry them from my cold,dead hands.
I figure that there are bigger problems in the world today than video games.
It just that politicians and others want to focus on video games so they don't have to deal with society's important problems.

Steve J
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 07:24
The most violent game I have played is oblivion in terms of gore. I am pretty sensitized to violence, but I dont mind hunting, gun practice, ect. My main issue with violent games is that they are trying to show realistic gore. I dont like that. My friend told me about Doom 3, and I would not like to play that. Cant the gamer just say, "Oh, blood. Cool, looks real", not "ooo, their brain is on the wall! Look at those stomach cuts, amazing!". Unreal Tourny is different, because it is obviously not real guts, I mean, they are just pieces of meat, lol.

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Michael S
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 07:35
Until the child is 17 they can restrict what there children play. so if a parent has a problem with violence then...wait how about dont give the child the gosh darn game. Dont ruin our fun.

Agent Dink
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 08:52
It's just these politicians have grown up in an era before the majority of these problems came about (cause they caused em). Also happened to be an era before games. Hmmm could be a connection there. I think it's just that they think they found a scapegoat.

If they are worried about instilling violence in our children, how about we work a bit harder to world peace WITHOUT resorting to wars... There's a thought

We'll see how my little bros turn out. They have been playing shooters for awhile now and my one brother is only 8 They are so mature about it, I would never even worry a bit about them. I'm not letting 'em play anything much worse than BF2 or anything right now, otherwise my mom wouldn't be so happy but even still...

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BatVink
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 09:46
Quote: "yeah, cause the last few have shown the great and positive roles that violent games place on our society"


Well said

You don't have to go out and kill someone to display adverse effects. Being desensitised to death is also a harmful outcome. For example - how many people these days consider abortion and euthanasia as acceptable, and have no emotion when watching news on TV about a single death, natural disaster or war?

Quote: "I used to play Pac-Man when I was growing up but I never went to school and ate anybody"

Yeah, but I know a few people who shut themselves in dark rooms with repetitive music, popping pills and thinking people were out to get them



Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 09:49 Edited at: 3rd Dec 2006 09:54
One of the main problems is that Urban legends become facts to alot of people.

Case 1) people killed themselves because they wacked out on D&D. This all stemmed from a decent piece of fiction Ronha Jaffe's Mazes and Monsters. They made a movie from the book and soon parents were hearing stories that the movie was supposed to be based on. Never happened.

Case 2) The kid who killed himself cuz his Everquest character died. I don't know how many people have told me htey knew a kid or someone they know knew a kid who did this. While I don't doubt someone may have been depressed about their characters death (though why I have no idea) No one ever killed themselves because of this game.

Alot also has to do with the fact that no one wants to be responsible for what their kid, husband, whatever did. So it becomes who can we blame because its certainly not my fault. I hate to say it (no I don't) but I blame lawyers for this whole mess, in an attempt to get a client off or with reduced charges they will say anything, present any theory, to earn their paycheck. Lawyers (though gennerally hated) are seen as intelligent people so if they are saying GTA caused someone to go on a killing spree it must be true.

Lets also face the fact that the media is largely responsible for this, heck if we are gonna have 24 hour news channels they have to talk about something, and what is going to get you to watch more? A story about a woman who volunteers 40 hours a week at a homless shelter or some hairbrained story about Video game violence making your kids into killers?

EDIT
Quote: "You don't have to go out and kill someone to display adverse effects. Being desensitised to death is also a harmful outcome. For example - how many people these days consider abortion and euthanasia as acceptable, and have no emotion when watching news on TV about a single death, natural disaster or war?"


While I agree we have been desensitised to violence it is far more from the news then from video games. Horror movies have gotten gorier(sp?), music more vulgar etc but the peopl ewho watch these things can generally seperate fact from fiction. My sister-in-law loves the SAW movies but near about faints and gets super squemish at the sight of real blood.

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Michael S
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 09:57
I don't know I might watch the one about A story about a woman who volunteers 40 hours a week at a homless shelter.

Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 10:00
Quote: "I don't know I might watch the one about A story about a woman who volunteers 40 hours a week at a homless shelter."


as would I but face it we are in the minority on that.

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FredP
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 10:04
Quote: "Yeah, but I know a few people who shut themselves in dark rooms with repetitive music, popping pills and thinking people were out to get them"


Hey!I change the music I listen to every once in a while...
Just kidding...
You make a valid point but what about the people who did this before computers?
People have been behaving erratically for thousands of years...
long before video games.
I also agree about the horror movies.
I used to watch them like crazy when I was younger but the emphasis was on scaring the crap out of you not seeing in how much blood you can splatter.
Things were a lot different when I was a kid.
Now I am starting to sound like my parents...

Hobgoblin Lord
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 10:11
Quote: "Things were a lot different when I was a kid."


Yeah but did you have to watch those movies uphill both ways in 40 below weather?

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FredP
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 10:15
While I was walking barefoot through the snow dragging the children to the schoolhouse?
I'm not that old...

Dared1111
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 10:23
I'd say the results are fake... it depends on personality.

if you are an addictive person you may start wanting to be like the person and then start acting like them...

I play lots of games but i never get very violent.

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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 10:33 Edited at: 3rd Dec 2006 10:34
If I was part of the study I'd skew the results like crazy. I'm always calm under pressure, play violent video games and love to kill pixels, but outside video games in the real world I avoid killing even insects because I believe all life is precious.

There has been a study (don't remember where I saw it) that says because of video games soldiers are more likely to shoot... in times of war that's an asset... so it's both good and bad.
Wiggett
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 10:43
sometime swhen i get a game i really enjoy i will play it heaps in teh first week or so, and that will haev an affect on my outside a computer life. For instance, i started playing joint ops recently, i loved it heaps an dplayed a respectable amount of hours at it for the first week. I'd find myself closing my eyes on public transport and seeing a feint crosshair placed oh so accurately or I'd start thinking in abbreviated say: messages, or even trying to hit f10 for voice macros. this isn't the only game that has had that affect on me, it's mostly just the whole interface that affects me, (and I assume others.. well i hope others ), not the voilence or character interactions.

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Jess T
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 11:57
Don't worry guys, our industry isn't just going to go down the gutter.

What's the worst that'll happen? They'll force us to put higher rating labels on the games? So what, the kids that buy these games will get them regardless

Wigget; I can just imagine, you're at the supermarket and someone says "Hi Sir, how are you" and you start stabbing the air with your finger trying to press f10 for "Hi, good, asl?"
Hahaha

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 11:59
Right...From my studies of Psychology, Child Learning etc. I am concluding that:

Young children imitate what they see on TV and Video games, one test showed when watching someone beat up a big doll, if they saw it, they beat it up too, but these were younger children, who only learn and do from what the see and are told, meaning a 6 year old shouldn't play GTA, hence the 18 sticker, from about 10 years old a child will develop a sense of morality, meaning they are fully aware of what is right and wrong, and as long as they are taught the right way for morality then seeing violence isn't a problem, hence we get the 12, 15 and 18 stickers, for different levels of violence and mature themes, so from that age, if taught well, the child/teen will not act immorally after seeing violence or playing a violent game, meaning if you're going to have your kid play an 18 rated game, you're gonna make sure they know that its virtual reality and doing such things in reality is wrong. I think there are too many looking at it at a too biased way, like 'No way a game can't influence someone, that's dumb' or 'Video games are a leech to society' its neither, its another thing parents need to make sure their kids understand it if they're playing the game as long as the kid is at the age where they have moral awareness.

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Posted: 3rd Dec 2006 12:10
Quote: "But a while back a friend sent me a link to one of "those" sites that show decapitations, people splattered on the roads from jumping off high rises, dead people in pits, etc. and I felt kinda sick after. There is no way in hell the feelings are similar-- i.e. violence in games (fiction) and non-fiction violence"


Exactly how I feel. I get some perverse pleasure from mutilating people in computer games. If the game allows me to blow off every limb and then pick them up and dump them in separate dumpsters before writing "AHAHAH" in their blood pool with my foot prints, then I will do that .... lots of times ... and be highly entertained by it (more so than playing the actual game sometimes).

But I am routinely sickened by the stuff I see on TV ... real violence, which might not even show the act of violence itself. I have to force myself to switch off to the emotional effects caused by the news sometimes, at the risk of getting upset and frustrated by what people do to other people.

As has been said before, the problem is only for the psychotic individuals that are affected the same way by both real and computer generated violence. Then I can see how playing games would bring out their violent side. What can you do though? These people are already psychos. It's not the games fault.

Most people are normal enough to have different emotional responses to real and fake violence, and you can't destroy something (in this case computer games) just to save the few. That's taking away our freedom.


Matt Rock
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Posted: 4th Dec 2006 02:51
Quote: "I used to play Pac-Man when I was growing up but I never went to school and ate anybody..."

Without question, that is undeniably my most favorite quote now!

Quote: "yeah, cause the last few have shown the great and positive roles that violent games place on our society."

Every credible study I've read thus far from a non-biased research group has said that violent games are no more likely to increase violent behavior than any other form of media. But unlike other forms of media, games increase motor skills, hand-eye coordination, and a number of other traits. So I'd go so far as to say that I think games offer more to mental development than any other form of media... but that's just my opinion.

Quote: "My main issue with violent games is that they are trying to show realistic gore. I dont like that."

But what about violent movies like Hostel or Saw? Surely they've made more gruesome films than they've made games. If I had a kid, I would no more want him/ her to watch Hostel than I'd want them to play a game like GTA or Doom. And yet you never see studies conducted on the film industry.

On that note... our industry needs better lobbyists here in the states, if we even have any at all. I hate lobbyists as much as most others, but it's the only way to get stuff done nowadays, so let's hire some decent lobbyists dangit!

Quote: "It's just these politicians have grown up in an era before the majority of these problems came about (cause they caused em). Also happened to be an era before games. Hmmm could be a connection there. I think it's just that they think they found a scapegoat."

Very true. They came from an era where the girl on "I dream of Jeanie" wasn't allowed to show her bellybutton on TV because it was considered too risque, and no one thought the show title "Leave it to Beaver" was hilarious. Today, what do we consider risque? Janet Jackson's boob flopping out during the Superbowl? Terra Reid having a similar "clothing malfunction" at the Oscars? Paris Hilton (just her being alive in general)? I don't see anyone going after Britney Spears for dancing the way she does, all the while being more than half nude. And her target audience is what, 8-13 year olds? Yeah, there's a role model . To be perfectly honest, I think my kids could learn more from Tommy Vercetti than they ever could from Britney Spears.

Quote: "Yeah, but I know a few people who shut themselves in dark rooms with repetitive music, popping pills and thinking people were out to get them "

You know Jason Mewes?

Quote: "There has been a study (don't remember where I saw it) that says because of video games soldiers are more likely to shoot... in times of war that's an asset... so it's both good and bad."

I saw a similar study, maybe even the same one. It was on the Military Channel, some guy talking about how they might "administer" war-based PC games to soldiers that are failing weapon accuracy tests.

Quote: "What's the worst that'll happen? They'll force us to put higher rating labels on the games? So what, the kids that buy these games will get them regardless "

My big fear is that they might do to us what they did to our friends in Australia. Or maybe they'll put some sort of limitations on how we develop games, content-wise. If they tried to do that, it would seriously take the jam out of my donut.


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
Glorfon
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Posted: 4th Dec 2006 03:47 Edited at: 4th Dec 2006 03:58
I know a little sumthin sumthin bout psycology and the area of the brain they were refering to is stimulated during any activity you enjoy from painting to voulenteering to freebasing crack cocaine. They refer to it a lot in psycological studies to say that some think is "addictive" becuas it stimulates the same area as smoking cocaine does.

Secondly I don't know what to make of this but it seems some what relavent. I don't play many violent games. or ANY for that matter but I still love violence. I draw pictures of gruesome murders executed by bunies. Yet the most violent thing I've ever actualy done was shove a kid over a chair (before any one get's off on a tangent about how he could have fallen over backwards and broken his neck there was a wall behind the chair so he just bumped the wall and fell into the seat ok) you just have to seperate fact from fiction.

Also acording to a studie from the Carnegie Institute fror children violence in teens has gone down in the last 30 years. I guess they had some incrediblly violent video games back in 1976.

And finally All sorts of things mess with my mind books, movies, board games, but rarely vidio games. The worse case was with my modeling software anim8or I had gotten so obsesed with it that I was woken up in the middle of the night once by high pitched voices screamin "anim80r anim8or anim8or" in my dream.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 4th Dec 2006 04:44
I agree that playing violent video games can desensitise (if that's a word) people to violence, as can movies, but I don't think that means that it makes people want to go out and kill people (with a few exceptions). But you don't really need a study for that, it's common sense, if you take someone who's never seen anything violent simulated in their life, and stick them in a fierce battle, they would be more affected by it than someone who had played and watched violent video games their entire life, because, although it's different with real people, I think that seeing things like that you gradually become used to it and less sensitive to such materials.

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BatVink
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Posted: 4th Dec 2006 13:07
Quote: "I agree that playing violent video games can desensitise (if that's a word) people to violence, as can movies, but I don't think that means that it makes people want to go out and kill people (with a few exceptions). "


The point isn't about violence. The point is that desensitising a generation of children is a bad effect in itself. These people will be the politicians and decision-makers in 20 or 30 years time. Do you want people who have a deficit of emotion deciding whether you live or die? Whether you should receive government funding for your disability or degenerative disease? Whether you can decide whether or not to keep or abort your own unborn baby? Whether your child with a mental illness should be allowed to live? Whether you can be forced to go to war, or face the death sentence for your crimes?



Kenjar
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Posted: 4th Dec 2006 22:06
Quote: "Quote: "a new brain-imaging study from Indiana University—the first of its kind—suggests that playing violent videogames may indeed change the way a person feels and acts. In the study, released Tuesday at the at the annual meeting of the Radiological Society of North America, researchers found that teenagers who played a violent videogame exhibited increased activity in a part of the brain that governs emotional arousal. The same teens showed decreased activity in the parts of the brain involved in focus, inhibition and concentration. The study randomly assigned 44 physically and psychologically normal 13- to 17-year-old boys and girls (with boys outnumbering girls more than two to one) to two groups. One group played a violent wartime videogame for a half hour while the other played a nonviolent, car-chase video game. Researchers then used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to look at the kids’ brains.""


I think that's a little obvious, given the way we know our brains work, which is to create new neurological pathways to store memories. The greater specific area's of the brain's stimulated, the greater the strenth of the pathways in that section of the brain. Teenagers and children are developing at a far faster rate than adults, so the more you stimulate one part of the brain the stronger it gets, the less you stimulate another part, the weaker it gets. If someone's total experiance is based on playing these games, then they will develope abnormally. However it doesn't work like that, most kids won't play more than a few hours a day, so there's plenty of other enviromental factors to help balance it out. But all in all, teenagers are constantly adapting, and forming their personalities, it's called growing up. I suspect if someone is playing these games, and has a terrible home enviroment then games will agrovate an already negitive situation, but it's certainly not going to be the whole factor for someone going off the deep end.

Jess T
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Posted: 6th Dec 2006 04:02
Quote: "My big fear is that they might do to us what they did to our friends in Australia."


Um... I live in Australia, and I have no clue what you're talking about

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indi
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Posted: 6th Dec 2006 04:05
I think he's mentioning the ban of some games to australia via the standard shop system.
GTA when it went through its pornography scandal became harder to buy anywhere but the internet.

Torsten Sorensen
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Posted: 6th Dec 2006 08:19
Quote: "splattered on the roads from jumping off high rises, dead people in pits, etc. and I felt kinda sick after."

I'm the exact same way. Violence ir real life just makes me feel sick, but in games it si just entertainment. But I guess the people that don't feel that way get a gun on the black market and kill 90 people...

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Posted: 7th Dec 2006 04:07
Quote: "I think he's mentioning the ban of some games to australia via the standard shop system."

Exactly.


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Jess T
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Posted: 7th Dec 2006 08:24
Ah, ok, now I get it

But like indi mentioned, that just means that the games aren't available 'off-the-shelf'.

Actually, having said that, that's a pretty big kick in the nads for the general game-industry if a whole country can't ever impulse-buy, or simply 'pop down to the shops' to get a particular game...

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 8th Dec 2006 00:51
I can only imagine it hurts sales dramatically. And the US makes up a pretty big chunk of game consumers, so I think it's safe to say that if such a law were passed here, it would have a severely negative effect on the industry worldwide.


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