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Geek Culture / A Sense of Scale

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Chris K
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Posted: 11th Dec 2006 19:29 Edited at: 11th Dec 2006 19:29
Thought this was quite cool. (Images have been scaled down 75% too, sorry about that):



-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-

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Oraculaca
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Posted: 11th Dec 2006 19:54
Yikes!! (and I never use that word)

El Goorf
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Posted: 11th Dec 2006 20:41
i remember once trying to model the solar system, but I could find a scale that my 3d modeller could work with to fit both pluto and the sun >.>
Fallout
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Posted: 11th Dec 2006 21:24
Funny, I always assumed mars was bigger than the earth. Never bothered to find out.


TKF15H
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Posted: 11th Dec 2006 21:28
I always thought it was just a bit smaller... not half the size.

El Goorf
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Posted: 11th Dec 2006 23:42
jupiter looks like an american gobstopper

anyways, just realised, the moon doesnt appear there, would be a nice addition..
soapyfish
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 00:01
Sweet nipple tweakers!!

It would appear I've been bitten by the coding bug yet again...
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Wiggett
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 00:02
with all those suns there how did the camera and stage not melt from all the heat?

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Grandma
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 00:04 Edited at: 12th Dec 2006 00:34
^^ Yeah, it's probably fake!



Edit: btw, VV CEPHEI is bigger then antares.

Here's a nice 3d studio max animation showing how small, unsignificant, puny little earthlings we are http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/65127/We_Are_Very_Very_Small.html

Warning! site contains some adult material.

You get the sense of scale sliglty better after having seen this.

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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 01:07
Thats cool.

I was wondering, when I was watching that, if beings on planets the size of the last sun, are giants, or the same size as us.

Steve J
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 04:28
htf would we know man?

http://phoenixophelia.com

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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 04:31
I wasnt asking for an answer..... pfft.

Dave J
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 04:48 Edited at: 12th Dec 2006 04:49
I find the distance one to be as equally as interesting:

Link to large version: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Earth-Moon2.jpg

That's a to-scale representation of how far the moon is from the Earth. Putting a man on the moon seems to be a significantly larger accomplishment now. I had no idea it was *that* far away, numbers aren't quite as impressive as a visual representation.


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 05:03
Wow Dave, that's pretty amazing! 240,000 miles if the earth is 8000 miles across. (copied and pasted the earth 30 times!) 30x8000=240,000 miles

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Raven
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 05:50
The sizes are a little off, and while there's no doubt that this solar system is fairly small; there's no proof or point of reference that any of the observed bodies are the sizes that have been claimed.

I mean think about it, you look at a light house say 10miles away in the dark. You can see the light and know it's there, but from where you are you wouldn't be able to tell how tall it is.
Even with a set of binoculars you might be able to see how detailed it is; but unless you can see a doorway you wouldn't be able to guess the height accurately, even then you would assume the doorway is a standard height.. so no matter how accurately you try to calculate it there's no gaurentee you will get it right without a huge number of facts.

Space is like living on that hill and just looking out, guessing what the world out there is like. I mean you might be able to make some well educated guesses but in the end it's all still guess work until you go out and explore it.

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Dave J
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 08:28
Just because you don't know how to prove it, doesn't mean it's impossible. There's some very complex math behind it (that I can't explain) but the measurements are reasonably accurate (of course, not 100% precise). Stop being so cynical.


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Chris K
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 10:09
Go go gadget Raven, tttrrrooooollllll!

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Morcilla
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 11:15
Scientist determine the radius of a star from its luminosity and surface temperature.
For a given luminosity, the greater the surface temperature, the smaller the radius must be.
For a given surface temperature, the greater the luminosity, the larger the radius must be.

Of course only accurate instruments can measure that.

I made my own video about space scales and star sizes not very long ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7_zPxPevXw

As the view distance is fixed, you can see how some stars can be as big as Mars orbit
Raven
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 11:45
Quote: "Just because you don't know how to prove it, doesn't mean it's impossible. There's some very complex math behind it (that I can't explain) but the measurements are reasonably accurate (of course, not 100% precise). Stop being so cynical."


Complex math? Hardly. You as game developers actually do very similar math on a daily basis to what is used to determin a star's size, density and distance.

Think about what information that is available right now.
Hubble telescope is the most powerful telescope, so based on the distance that can physically reach; then you take the dot and based on the speed of light calculate from the brightness and size to find out how large and far it is.

I mean it's no different to using the zdepth to calculate depth of field for a game; just done in reverse order. You're basically trying to find the zdepth from the dof. They assume that the galaxy is like a clear field, where you can take a bit of string from one side to the other and measure the distance... realistically it's more like trying to measure the distance of one tree to another in a forest.

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indi
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 11:50
without even knowing the maths, I think your forgetting gravity along the way warping light raven.
I would hazard an educated guess Morcilla knows what he is talking about.
Pehaps the forest analogy is a little short sighted.. geddit ! hehe never mind...

bitJericho
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 19:48
they can measure the distance to an object quite easily. Take snapshot at one end of the earths revolution around the sun, and then take a picture at the other, and you now have a 3 dimensional picture you can measure distances from.

It's the same way you know that you're ten inches from a small block, or 10 feet from your monitor...

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Raven
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 21:06
Quote: "without even knowing the maths, I think your forgetting gravity along the way warping light raven.
I would hazard an educated guess Morcilla knows what he is talking about.
Pehaps the forest analogy is a little short sighted.. geddit ! hehe never mind..."


without knowing the math? just because I never gave you the equasion doesn't mean I don't know it, instead I was trying to explain it in a context that people would understand.

while Morcilla posted at the same time I was posting, if you bother to notice (although god knows if you understand how zdepth and depth of field works) then we've given the same information.

what's more is you say "forgetting gravity along the way of light", but did you actually bother to think about what the forest analogy was trying to represent? No doubt you didn't and believe that Morcilla and I are talking about different things so felt you could basically go "hey look Morcilla right, you wrong"

Quote: "they can measure the distance to an object quite easily. Take snapshot at one end of the earths revolution around the sun, and then take a picture at the other, and you now have a 3 dimensional picture you can measure distances from.

It's the same way you know that you're ten inches from a small block, or 10 feet from your monitor..."


true that is one method, but that has to be done from the adverage light output. there's no guarentee that this equates to the exact distance given the adverage could provide varying results when taken at different times as stars are constantly flickering between two given states randomly; on top of this is the fact that light over greater distances becomes unreliable due to external forces.

So while the technique works very well for our own system, this is because there are far less external factors and the results are relatively reliable.

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 21:48
Quote: "The sizes are a little off, and while there's no doubt that this solar system is fairly small; there's no proof or point of reference that any of the observed bodies are the sizes that have been claimed."


The same could be said about some people's own self impression

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 21:59
Raven, why can't you just take what the experts say as fact, and not poke your nose in and try to prove everyone wrong with the little expeience you have. Of course the scientists know they're estimations aren't accurate, and they probably even know more about that than you do. They give us what they know, and it's the best it's going to get. If they didn't know, they wouldn't make it up just for fun.

Wolf, lol

Miguel Melo
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 22:14
Funny, I thought that the Earth was even smaller than that compared to the Sun ...

You'd think he'd be taller.

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Oraculaca
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 23:08
Quote: "has to be done from the adverage light output"

Doh! all these years and you still cant drop the d
I have an analogy involving trees, something to do with two short planks.

Dave J
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 03:19
Don't worry, I'm sure he'll get around to fixxing that problem eventually.


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dark coder
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 06:10
Quote: "they can measure the distance to an object quite easily. Take snapshot at one end of the earths revolution around the sun, and then take a picture at the other, and you now have a 3 dimensional picture you can measure distances from."


You do realise some of these stars are over 3000 light years away, and some pictures of stars and places, are taken on seperate days and added together due to the orbital movements of earth being far too insignificant to change the image.

Steve J
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 06:34 Edited at: 13th Dec 2006 06:45
Amazing, Raven is wrong! Who would have guessed?

On distances, it is amazing though. Not too amazing though.

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Everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth.
Morcilla
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 12:34 Edited at: 13th Dec 2006 12:38
Lol, must be joking, I cannot see why Raven is wrong (he just has his own oppinion), but I can say that Jerico2day is right about distances. Our brain calculates distances in the same way with our two eyes.

To say it in other words, for example, take a picture of the sky January 1st and another picture July 1st, when the Earth is at the opposite position in orbit. We have 2 pictures separated 2 AU (300 million km).

The greater the difference (change of position for the same star) between the images, the closer the star is. That angle is called the parallax of the star.

You can try this little experiment yourselves: Hold your arm straight in front of you. Now look at the hand or one finger, first with left eye (right eye closed) and then with the right eye (left eye closed). Your hand appears to shift against the background of more distant objects. The closer the hand, the greater the parallax shift.

Hope you found that interesting, I don't wanna appear like a know-it-all, I just have read a book
Crazy Ninja
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 14:06
Quote: "I just have read a book"


Book? I hate book! Book is stupid!

and so am i.

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 14:24 Edited at: 13th Dec 2006 14:28
Quote: "Lol, must be joking, I cannot see why Raven is wrong (he just has his own oppinion)..."


I don't think anyone here would believe that the sizes of the pictures are EXACTLY to scale. But, to make a simple judgement that they are "off a little" as if you know any better is a bit silly.
In the one picture, our sun is represented as 1 pixel. Should it actually be 1.1 pixel? That is a 10% difference. Maybe it should actually be 1.000000004 pixels! The point is WHO CARES? The pics are meant to be a good visual comparison between the different bodies to give a sense of scale. I don't think anyone is going to use it to make a map to plan their journey to Mars (although some might claim having the means to do so).

So, you are correct. Everyone is alowed to have an opinion. You know what they say, opinions are like a-holes. Everyone has one. It just seems that some produce more piles of crap than others.

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Chris K
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 14:39 Edited at: 13th Dec 2006 14:40
The thing I loved was how Raven went - "Yeah, you've got your sizes a bit off there... and by the way there's no way of calculating the sizes".

What a goon.

So he knows the right sizes, but also knows that you can't calculate them

Troll on baby, troll on.

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indi
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 15:14
we all know raven has issues, like today with his xbox, we helped him with something trivial like the ports to open etc.. makes you wonder though, cant work an xbox live system, but knows the distance of planets etc.. hmm..

Kentaree
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 15:33
And hence the rest of this thread descends in Raven bashing. Very mature...

Chris K
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 15:41 Edited at: 13th Dec 2006 17:48
Good point let's cut it out....







Here.





No wait, here

----------------

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 16:06
Quote: "And hence the rest of this thread descends in Raven bashing."

The rest of the thread?
The remaining amount of "Raven bashing" a little off, and while there's no doubt that this thread is fairly small; there's no proof or point of reference that any of the posts are the amount of "Raven bashing" that have been claimed.

I mean think about it, you look at a light house say 10miles away in the dark. You can see the light and know it's there, but from where you are you wouldn't be able to tell how tall it is.
Even with a set of binoculars you might be able to see how detailed it is; but unless you can see a doorway you wouldn't be able to guess the height accurately, even then you would assume the doorway is a standard height.. so no matter how accurately you try to calculate it there's no gaurentee you will get it right without a huge number of facts.

This forum is like living on that hill and just looking out, guessing what the next posts will be like. I mean you might be able to make some well educated guesses but in the end it's all still guess work until you the posts are made.

Quote: "Very mature..."


What is mature?
The amount of maturity is a little off, and while there's no doubt that this maturity is fairly small; there's no proof or point of reference that any of the observed people are the maturity that have been claimed.

I mean think about it, you look at a light house say 10miles away in the dark. You can see the light and know it's there, but from where you are you wouldn't be able to tell how tall it is.
Even with a set of binoculars you might be able to see how detailed it is; but unless you can see a doorway you wouldn't be able to guess the height accurately, even then you would assume the doorway is a standard height.. so no matter how accurately you try to calculate it there's no gaurentee you will get it right without a huge number of facts.

Measuring peoples maturity is like living on that hill and just looking out, guessing how they will react. I mean you might be able to make some well educated guesses but in the end it's all still guess work until you go out and see their posts.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 16:18
Chris K
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 16:22
It took me ages to get that.

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 16:22
lol

You know that you laughed

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Kentaree
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 16:36
I thought it was serious for a sec, only then did I cop it. Only one word for it, owned

Peter H
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 16:52
ha

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Raven
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 17:23
Quote: "Doh! all these years and you still cant drop the d"


**** you! Just because I have dyslexia doesn't make my opinions, knowledge or understanding on subjects any less valid than anyone else, and it's a damn low-blow for people to constantly make fun of this.

Quote: "we all know raven has issues, like today with his xbox, we helped him with something trivial like the ports to open etc.. makes you wonder though, cant work an xbox live system, but knows the distance of planets etc.. hmm.."


Yeah, because every astrophysicist has to learn about computer networking before they're even allowed to use a telescope.

Quote: "Raven, why can't you just take what the experts say as fact, and not poke your nose in and try to prove everyone wrong with the little expeience you have. Of course the scientists know they're estimations aren't accurate, and they probably even know more about that than you do. They give us what they know, and it's the best it's going to get."


Oh I always forget that everyone here knows exactly what education, and hobbies I participate in. I'm sure whatever the degrees I've attained are surely neither of them mean that I would be able to provide me with any knowledge about how the math is done in astrophysics... after all Maths and Physics play no roles in that subject at all, now do they?

Quote: "If they didn't know, they wouldn't make it up just for fun."


Who here can tell me what a "Theory" is?
Remember that the majority of astrophysics and astronomy are done based on what we do know; and as such we fill in the dots ourselves.. an educated guess is still a guess, not fact.

The point I've been trying to put across, has been not that the experts are wrong; per'say. Just that you can't rely on what they claim to be accurate. Especially if you take note of how distance and size appears to be measured and stars grow in size periodically based on distance. Typically I've been blasted once again for what I've said and I'll bet heavily that very few even bothered to read what I wrote, or take the time to understand it despite the fact I always try to put information across in a way that even the youngest member here could grasp the basics.

Typical to always see the exact same posters always blasting across their responses all the time. About time they grew up, and either provided a real debate about a subject or just shut the hell up. I mean people go on about "Raven knows nothing about this..." but most of the time, none of you understand the subject at hand and just respond to be jerks rather than trying to learn more or providing valid information.

I would be greatly surprised if more than 2-3 ppl in this entire thread know much about astrophysics, and/or astronomy. You just find something pretty online and expect it to be accepted without question.

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Chris K
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 17:29
So you've got a maths degree huh?

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 17:41
Quote: "Who here can tell me what a "Theory" is?"


ohh...ohhh.... Pick me! Pick me!

Theories are ideas that can be a little off, and while there's no doubt that our undertanding is fairly small; there's no proof or point of reference that any of the theories are as true as have been claimed.

I mean think about it, you look at a light house say 10miles away in the dark. You can see the light and know it's there, but from where you are you wouldn't be able to tell how tall it is.
Even with a set of binoculars you might be able to see how detailed it is; but unless you can see a doorway you wouldn't be able to guess the height accurately, even then you would assume the doorway is a standard height.. so no matter how accurately you try to calculate it there's no gaurentee you will get it right without a huge number of facts.

Theories are like living on that hill and just looking out, guessing what the facts are. I mean you might be able to make some well educated guesses but in the end it's all still guess work until you go out and prove it.



Quote: "The point I've been trying to put across, has been not that the experts are wrong; per'say. Just that you can't rely on what they claim to be accurate."

So what. The point of this thread and the pictures is a sense of scale. At the size that they are displayed on your screen how could you call them accurate or not-accurate? They aren't dimensioned at all.

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Chris K
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 17:47
I can't believe I didn't see that coming. I started reading it like you were actually going to answer it.

Ashamed to say I laughed again.

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 17:49
lol @ Chris K.
That is my new favorite quote. It can be applied to just about anything

Quote: "
I would be greatly surprised if more than 2-3 ppl in this entire thread know much about astrophysics, and/or astronomy. You just find something pretty online and expect it to be accepted without question."


You know what? You are right. How could I possibly know as much as you on this subject. You know much more about space than most people here. Hell, half of your posts are pulled right out of Uranus.

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indi
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 22:47
now that explains a lot, sorry raven, what colour glasses did they give you. my friend has blue ones.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Dec 2006 23:06
Holy crap...look at the size at some of those giants, I know they've studied a black hole a 100 times the size of our sun, but wow!

Wonder if any one could make an actual size 3D model and make an image of Antares...because I wanna see it Who cares if the render time would be a 1000 times longer than all of the star wars and lord of the rings being rendered on my computer.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 21:33
I thought a black hole was supposed to be tiny from the gravity , but hey, what do I know?

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