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Geek Culture / Dark Basic Professional + Vista

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Alfred
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Posted: 12th Dec 2006 17:10
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As a programmer who really likes working with Dark Basic Pro I have been concerned with the upcoming Windows Vista O/S. I know that TGC have been working on the "migration" to Windows Vista but will this new upgrade for DBP cost?

If it does, then could we expect some sort of discount from customers who have already bought DBP?

Just a little doubt which I would appreciate any information on.

Hallowed are the ori.
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Jess T
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 05:11
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Speaking entirely on my own behalf, and not knowing what will actually happen, I think that it'll be marketed as an entirely new product, and sold as such.
There may possibly be a discount for DBP users who bought directly from TGC, but otherwise not.

Just my 2c.

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spooky
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 12:34
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I can also imagine that once a new version comes out for Vista, probably with a spanking new IDE, compiler, etc, then there will be virtually no updates for DBPro and it will go the way of DBc.

Boo!
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 12:43
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I don't see that happening until the Vista version has been out for a year or so. At that point we can't expect anything else, any product has a limited lifespan.


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Vampiric
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Posted: 14th Dec 2006 20:59
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Only hardcore gamers will move to vista anyway. I mean there's a lot people still using windows 98 so there's going to be loads of people still using xp for at least another 5 - 10 years

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Kaurotu
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Posted: 15th Dec 2006 22:53
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I actually don't even seeing many people going to Vista after the launch. I think it was PC Magazine or PC World (one of the two) that said Vista doesn't really even run any more effectively than XP. The only obvious difference is that it looks pretty. We'll see, I don't totally agree with that, but I'm just probably going to stick with XP until I get a whole new computer. I'll bet there will more than likely be some back-compatilbility support for games, applications, etc.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 01:50
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Well, I just bought a latpop with a free upgrade to Vista Home Premium when it's released, so I will have Vista on that computer someday. I will also buy Dark Basix DX10 most likely.

Sometimes the only way over a wall is to pile up enough bodies to climb over - Dave W.
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HeavyAmp
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 03:33
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So whats so special about direct x 10. I know Microsoft has stuck with 9 for ages. It must have been saving up some good features .I heard Vista was getting a completely 3D interface that ran from the Video Card and not the CPU but that was a while ago. I haven't been keeping informed about Vista. I hope the newer version of Dark Basic will be backwards compatible with XP.
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Raven
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 04:07
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Don't know about the others, but Vista Business (over Beta1) actually has some seriously interesting performance.

I'd say comparitively on current desktops, no you won't see much of a performance increase in what you do when surfing the internet or writing documents. Just turn off Aero, and you see a major difference.

Games are what have been given the best advantage, as the Kernel now suspends all processes running except those immediately required for the game itself (unless you turn this option off which you get a choice in the game settings) .. with the design of DirectX also being optimised the overall performance of games on Vista is just one of the biggest "wow" factors.

Current generation games won't see much difference, but Halo 2 for Vista and others will change this in the comming year.

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400, 512MB DDR2 667MHz, ATi Radeon X1900 XT 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista Business / XP Professional SP2
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David R
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 16:24 Edited at: 16th Dec 2006 16:25
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Quote: "ith the design of DirectX also being optimised the overall performance of games on Vista is just one of the biggest "wow" factors."


And we no longer have to worry about surfaces being lost! Woo hoo!
(if using DX10 that is)

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dark donkey
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 17:11
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will dbpro x10 version be all the same comands as ther is in dbpro now or will they all be difrent.

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Alfred
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Posted: 16th Dec 2006 19:17
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Well thanks everybody for the information. I guess that we will just have to wait for TGC to officially say something. I myself will change to Vista as soon as I have a new computer. There won´t be much use in staying in XP for long now. As for:
HeavyAmp:
Quote: "I hope the newer version of Dark Basic will be backwards compatible with XP"


If my understanding is correct Direct X 10 was made only for Vista. Also if I read right, all old applications that use Direct X 9 will still "run" but under emulation. I think that´s quite sad for all my old games.

Hallowed are the ori.
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HeavyAmp
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 01:42
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Quote: "If my understanding is correct Direct X 10 was made only for Vista. Also if I read right, all old applications that use Direct X 9 will still "run" but under emulation. I think that´s quite sad for all my old games."


That Sucks big time
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Raven
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 02:05
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Quote: "If my understanding is correct Direct X 10 was made only for Vista. Also if I read right, all old applications that use Direct X 9 will still "run" but under emulation. I think that´s quite sad for all my old games."


I don't see why everyone is getting all in a tiff about how Vista does aspects like DirectX9.

Vista uses 2 very distinct variants of DirectX.
DirectX10 and DirectX9Ex

DirectX9Ex does everything DirectX9 does, plus has the extended functionality of DirectX10. This allows the migration between both APIs, however it is by no means an 'emulation'. If anything this is a step away from emulation which previous DirectX RTLs (like DirectX9) provided to be compatible with all of their predcessors.

It's just more scare mongering from the same people who mentioned that Vista wouldn't support OpenGL directly and forced a software emulation. The realism of what Microsoft have done, is provide a system that even without a driver OpenGL ICD you can still happily play all OpenGL games provided they support DirectX9/10. Same goes for GDI+ applications, now use DirectX instead.

It actually means that everything done on the desktop is enhanced by being run on your graphics processor rather than relying on the central processor. Means that performance drawing wise is increased, also means the CPU is used less allowing the OS to do more at once.

Of course this does mean low-end cards will struggle drawing, but also means that current generation card (Geforce 7-Series and Radeon X1K-Series) will truely open up the system to do much more.

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400, 512MB DDR2 667MHz, ATi Radeon X1900 XT 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista Business / XP Professional SP2
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JerBil
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 02:07
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Well, DBP runs on Vista ok, so we can use it for a time.
A DX10 DBP will probably need a DX10 capable video card,
and TGC is generally good about taking care of users on these things.

Would hope to see lower cost DX10 video cards in the future too.

Ad Astra Per Asper
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David R
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 13:22
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Quote: "you can still happily play all OpenGL games provided they support DirectX9/10"


Umm... that's quite a big 'if' - most apps I know that use OGL use it for a reason; they are multi-platform and don't use DX at all

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John Y
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 13:56
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Quote: "you can still happily play all OpenGL games provided they support DirectX9/10"


Incorrect, OpenGL is still supported, it's just that it has to go through DirectX as Windows Vista does not allow direct access to the hardware.

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David R
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 14:02 Edited at: 17th Dec 2006 14:04
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Quote: "Incorrect, OpenGL is still supported, it's just that it has to go through DirectX as Windows Vista does not allow direct access to the hardware."


Ah, that sounds more logical - it would be pretty uselss having OGL apps only run on Vista if they supported DX! Why bother running them with OGL if they support DX!

But yeah, I assume it simply wraps each OGL command into a DX one then?

EDIT: Does the 'non direct hardware access' thing apply to most stuff on Vista then, not just graphics? Because it appears Ahead software have been given a bit of a raw deal with Nero - it does not work at all due to low-level hardware access, along with a lot of other CD burning apps.

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Manic
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 15:53
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i wonder if TGC will use vista as an opportunity to properly update the language to something more practical.

A proper object oriented DBPro would be great.

I realise that would mean no code backwards compatability, but so what? its a completely new product, on a new OS. TGC shouldn't feel bad about that.

I don't have a sig, live with it.
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RUCCUS
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 17:48
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Then it wouldnt be associated with the BASIC language, and would need a completely new name.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 18:03
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Quote: "Then it wouldnt be associated with the BASIC language"

Take a look at Blitz Basic.

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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Dec 2006 23:41
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Blitz Basic is *real* OO? Doubt it.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 00:12
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Quote: "Blitz Basic is *real* OO? Doubt it."

All I heard is it had some OO features.

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Raven
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 01:24
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Quote: "Incorrect, OpenGL is still supported, it's just that it has to go through DirectX as Windows Vista does not allow direct access to the hardware."


Would be nice if people read the ENTIRE sentance written rather than the tail-end and jumping to their conclusions based on information that is out-dated. I still distinctly remember the whole "up in arms" on the nvidia developer forum when they believed that OpenGL was going to be emulated.

Windows XP never allowed direct hardware access, as such OpenGL had to run through GDI+. On Vista GDI+ has been replaced with DirectX however something to note is that the restriction to direct hardware access has been recinded. Although you still can't directly access the BIOS, you can access the hardware directly or map to DirectX. This is Microsoft's attempt to get rid of a huge number of abstraction layers that cause performance loss.

As I said before IF there is no OpenGL ICD, THEN OpenGL is emulated/wrapped by DirectX.

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400, 512MB DDR2 667MHz, ATi Radeon X1900 XT 256MB PCI-E, Windows Vista Business / XP Professional SP2
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 03:22
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I'd love a feature that would allow us to port our DBP games into the new DB(Vista). I'm sure someone will eventually make a tool for it, but hopefully it would be integrated into the new DB. Why can't Microsoft keep their stuff compatable with their old stuff? If I want to plug in a game from 1993, then gosh dang it, I should be able to without downloading this and teaking that. Ugh... can we do a class-action lawsuit against microsoft for being annoying?


"In an interstellar burst, I'm back to save the universe"
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Manic
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 11:51 Edited at: 18th Dec 2006 11:57
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Matt: do you want to play Megadrive/Genesis games on a dreamcast too? or perhaps you'd prefer the moon on a stick.


at some point MS was gonna have to stop supporting ancient (in computer terms at least) technology


EDIT: as far as DBPx10's synytax goes, it'd be nice to write

object("player").alpha = 1

instead of

set object transparency player,1

don't you think?


Martin

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Alfred
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 18:10
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Quote: "DirectX9Ex does everything DirectX9 does, plus has the extended functionality of DirectX10. This allows the migration between both APIs, however it is by no means an 'emulation'. If anything this is a step away from emulation which previous DirectX RTLs (like DirectX9) provided to be compatible with all of their predcessors."


Oh. Thanks for clearing that up.

Hallowed are the ori.
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David R
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 18:21
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Quote: "even without a driver OpenGL ICD you can still happily play all OpenGL games provided they support DirectX9/10"



!=

Quote: "IF there is no OpenGL ICD, THEN OpenGL is emulated/wrapped by DirectX."


So you definitely cannot blame anyone for misunderstanding your post, because what you've said in these two posts is worded differently, and has a different meaning.

I mean "provided they support DirectX9/10" does not equate to "OpenGL is emulated/wrapped by DirectX."

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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 18:27
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Quote: "Why can't Microsoft keep their stuff compatable with their old stuff? If I want to plug in a game from 1993, then gosh dang it, I should be able to without downloading this and teaking that."


Cry me a river

DirectX has been backward compatible for over 10 years--- it's about time they rewrote it from scratch to remove some of the legacy crap. You're complaining about optimization?

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 19:28
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Yeah but, not all DOS games aren't compatible, which I found annoying myself, I think the sense of compatibility, the OS should be backwards compatible more, I was annoyed when I saw Discworld Noir sitting in the shop with 'Not compatible with XP'. Hopefully MS will have learnt from XP and improved with Vista, now hearing and seeing from videos that MS has copied a lot of stuff from Mac, hopefully they stole the right ideas, from points where XP was weak on (I know I'm going to get told off, but after seeing that New York times video, I think its safe saying that they have copied 'some')

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
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Chris K
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Posted: 18th Dec 2006 21:03
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If they completely rewrite DBPro, as in *complerely* rewrite it, then they should release it as a separate product. DarkBASIC Enterprise or something.

I don't think this should be done until they are ready to drop DBPro and shift completely over to the new one.

There isn't a big enough market for them to do that at the moment though, maybe when 8800s are the norm among gamers.

So in my ideal world this happens:
- Lee stops adding features to DBPro and starts writing DBX from scratch
- Mike fixes all the bugs full time
- DBPro becomes officially unsupported
- DBX is released and kicks
- We start making games that look like Crysis
- We become millionaires

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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UnderLord
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Posted: 21st Dec 2006 13:54
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Quote: "We become millionaires"


You mean I become a millionaire while the rest of you pions slave day and night to make great games?

Thats what you meant right?

"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."
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Raven
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Posted: 21st Dec 2006 17:28
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Quote: "So you definitely cannot blame anyone for misunderstanding your post, because what you've said in these two posts is worded differently, and has a different meaning.

I mean "provided they support DirectX9/10" does not equate to "OpenGL is emulated/wrapped by DirectX." "


Alright you want me to make this far more plain so I'm not mis-quoted again?

Under Windows XP, let's say you're running the Microsoft Reference Driver. This would allow you to run DirectX, and OpenGL; however it would only emulate the most basic drawing operations on the processor. These reference drivers are always active, so if a graphics card developer doesn't support something (for example S3 do not support OpenGL and as such have no OpenGL ICD) then it would revert back to a reference driver for that api.

This means only the most basic operations are supported, making it very useless for modern gaming as it wouldn't be able to run the functionality required.

Windows Vista however runs using DirectX for all drawing operations, as a replacement to GDI. As this is the case, all cards are required to support atleast the minimum DirectX7 Specification, and be compatible with the DirectX9 API.

Due to this OpenGL no longer has to simply refert to a limited reference driver, meaning that whatever that card supports in DirectX is also supported in OpenGL; as functionality is wrapped to DirectX at the system-level not program-level.

This allows OpenGL to be fully supported without the need for an ICD. Although this might not always be perfect, or quite as quick as a native OpenGL interface through an ICD. It does mean you can use all of your OpenGL software that you could before on Windows XP with an appropriot ICD without needing one on Vista.

The method is much better than previous reference or emulation systems for using OpenGL without an ICD. Doesn't mean you don't still need one, or that you can't use one (like other websites would lead you to believe); just that support is already there.

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Chris K
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Posted: 21st Dec 2006 17:45
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No one is listening Raven.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Manic
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Posted: 21st Dec 2006 19:30
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Quote: "Alright you want me to make this far more plain so I'm not mis-quoted again?"


no, i think david just wants you to admit that you worded it wrong first time round. thats all. There's no shame in making a mistake.


I didn't bother reading the rest of your post, as i honestly wasn't interested in whatever your simple (6 paragraphs!!) explanation was.


to quote Roosevelt: Be sincere; be brief; be seated.


Martin

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Benjamin
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Posted: 21st Dec 2006 19:52
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Quote: "So in my ideal world this happens:
- Lee stops adding features to DBPro and starts writing DBX from scratch
- Mike fixes all the bugs full time
- DBPro becomes officially unsupported
- DBX is released and kicks
- We start making games that look like Crysis
- We become millionaires"

That happens in my ideal world too. I don't know why but for some reason only the third and last thing on that list sound remotely likely.

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