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Geek Culture / TGC out of buisness

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Supremacy
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 13:36
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will be very hard to compete against this

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=15743&type=mov&pl=game
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BatVink
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 13:46
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$99 per year subscription for the basic membership. Not so sure it's in the same marketplace as DB Pro.



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Supremacy
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 13:48
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its has a lot of power, just look at this:

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=3121&type=mov&pl=game
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Supremacy
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 13:49 Edited at: 22nd Dec 2006 13:50
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even the guys at garage games joined them, much likely because of fear, another take over of microsoft in the indi industry, this is gonna kill a lot of indie engines like blitz and darkbasic among others.

but then again...WII is killing everything else...soo...hmmm....strange things gonna happen in less then an year for sure
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indi
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 13:52
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$99 a year is a price range that might be out of the cash pocket for some smaller developers.
You will also need visual studio to code anything, which is how much lately?
Its already starting to sound expensive.

It will also mean you will have to buckle down and learn c++ / C sharp, which is much harder then getting DBP to complete groovy stuff.

The drag n drop feature sounds right up your alley supremacy.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 13:54
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Not really, the only reason I'll get Torque X is because I can compile in C# instead of C++ and its free to those who own Torque, I probably won't go near XNA otherwise and still use DBP, and consider there will be DBP X10, I don't think there would be any reason to go for XNA as DBP is easier and can produce great results, same for FPSC and FPSC X10, so I don't think XNA will effect TGC that much.

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 14:07
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Looks nice, but I bet dark basic can do just as good.

Its basically sucrosoft trying to take over the world again. I know I wont be getting it, Iam going to stay with TGC.

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John Y
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 14:13
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Quote: "You will also need visual studio to code anything, which is how much lately?"


I runs from Visual Studio C# Express which is free. The Visual Studio range is really impressive, one of the best things to come out of Microsoft for a while.

Get the new DarkBasic Professional IDE for only $19.99/~£9.85
Http://synergyide.thegamecreators.com
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indi
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 14:15
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thats enlightening! thanks.

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Supremacy
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 14:34
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What scares me, is the ease of use, theyre drag and drop is not a regular "drag and drop"...

Quote: "The drag n drop feature sounds right up your alley supremacy."


this offended me....lol
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Chris K
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 14:36
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Whoa wait the drag and drop is what's going to put them out of business?

It looks *rubbish*.

Seriously, sub Klik & Play poo.

The rest of it looks very good. I'm going to be looking to get into it once I get a 360 all of my very own .

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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indi
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 14:37
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well you appear to have trouble with simple things in DBP so i figured that would be good for you.
if you take it as offense perhaps your not being real to yourself, it wasn't intended that way.

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Supremacy
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 14:44
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Quote: "well you appear to have trouble with simple things in DBP so i figured that would be good for you.
if you take it as offense perhaps your not being real to yourself, it wasn't intended that way."


dont forget about this! specially, dont forget about my nick when you see my entry for the nvidia compo, then youll see what kind of "drag and drop" i am.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 14:48
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There's nothing much to worry about here - yet.

1) The 'drag and drop' aspect applies to 2D sprite games only. There are MANY solutions out there already that provide this, including free ones (Game Maker) which are far more advanced.

The problem with 2D games built like this is you need to be a graphics genius to create something that anyone would actually want to play. If you can't draw for crap, or don't have a friend who can, you're a bit stuffed really.

2) To build a 3D game you need to be proficient in C# programming. I love C#, I think it's an incredible language to use, but notice how in the interview they never said once that it was good for 'beginners', because it just isn't. The whole XNA approach isn't.

So in short, you're back to where we are today - those who can already code well (in C# or C++) have the option of using XNA and paying $99 per year for doing so. Those who want to drag and drop a game together could also pay $99 a year to do so, and their game will still be no better than something made with Game Maker, except it won't run on any non 'XNA' PC.

Add to this that there was nothing shown in the video, or that I've downloaded so far, that couldn't be built in DBPro or Blitz3D, and more easily too.

For an example watch this video:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/directx/xna/videos/

Specifically watch Tutorial 1: Displaying a 3D Model on the Screen

It takes them 18 minutes (yes, 18 whole minutes) to teach you how to get a 3D object on-screen. That's all - it doesn't even do anything but rotate. The amount of code being used and generated by Visual Studio to perform just this basic task is incredible (hundreds of lines worth) - see around 9mins into it for an example. You need a good comprehensive understanding of real object orientated programming to do this.

I mean I know people here who could have written half a game in 18 minutes with DBPro.

I'm sorry, but they don't compare - different markets, different approaches. I honestly believe that DB and Blitz are perfectly safe from XNA for the time being. They'll have to really work on the 'ease' of making a game before it hits our market. If I was Torque on the other hand, who do rely on people knowing C++ to create their games, then yes I'd be more worried - but even Torque have a big ace up their sleeve with a well built, well tested engine + network code for you to plug into.

It *could* have been a real problem for us. Thankfully, it's nowhere near yet.

Cheers,

Rich

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 15:01
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on a side note, iirc, xna will eventually be available to vb.net developers too, not just c#.

for now why not take advantage of the best of both worlds?
DGDK.NET!



Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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indi
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 15:26
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Did you change your name supremacy from mustra zoo or something. thats a name ive heard a while back in time.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 15:32
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Wasn't XNA supposed to be free, and you'd have to pay 99 a year mainly to support XBox 360, or am I wrong?

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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 15:39
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Actually, I was under that impression too...

I have vague plans for World Domination
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IanM
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 16:30 Edited at: 22nd Dec 2006 16:36
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XNA is free for use on Windows - you pay to get the ability to upload to your XBox

[EDIT]Here's the info

Q: How much does XNA Game Studio Express cost? Is there a difference between Windows and Xbox 360 development?
A: Visual C# Express, the XNA Game Studio Express tools and runtime environment for Windows are all FREE. To develop, debug and/or play games on the Xbox 360, however, you must have an XNA Creators Club subscription purchased directly from the Xbox Live Marketplace. Two subscription options are available: $99 per year or $49 per four months.

For free Plug-ins and source code
http://www.matrix1.demon.co.uk
New Utility plugins collection
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Chris K
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 16:31
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You can code games yourself on your PC and 360, the money only comes into it when you want to distribute games over Live!

At least, that is my understanding.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 16:33
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Quote: "Whoa wait the drag and drop is what's going to put them out of business?

It looks *rubbish*.

Seriously, sub Klik & Play poo."


Don't let Jeku hear you say that, he purchased that piece of poo

All of that Drag and drop stuff is just XNA within the Torque Engine, at the moment is only available for the Torque Game Builder (2D torque basically) and will have a version for the torque game engine and the shader engine.

I found it a bit odd that Marble Blast Ultra was in that video, I could swear that was demonstrating Torque's consoles ability (being for the Xbox 360) and didn't have anything to do with XNA, or am I mistaken?

"Cut down the gods if they stand in your way" - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
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Raven
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 17:03
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XNA Platform:

Requirements Windows PC:

600MHz Processor
128MB RAM
Shader 1.1 Capable Card (Shader 2.0 or above recommended)
100MB Hard Disk Space
Visual C# Express (free)

Requirements XBOX 360:

XNA Creator Club
XNA Creator Club License
XBOX 360 Hard Disk (20GB or 80GB)

The XNA Creator Club costs $39 (3months) or $99 (1year), which is almost identical to the cost of xbox live gold service.
You need the License to play on the XBOX 360, however not for the PC.

Game developed and shared must be compiled from Windows and then transfered to the XBOX 360 through XNA Game Studio Express.
Once the game is on that XBOX 360 you don't need to recompile unless you make changes to your code as the game or deleted from the XBOX 360 hard disk as it is stored in "My Games".

Runtimes on Windows do not require XNA like those on the XBOX 360, as it compiles the game runtime which can be freely shared.
You will need to provide the XNA Framework runtime, to make sure it is installed on that persons computer. It can be found in the 'redist' folder of XNA Game Studio installation.

Quote: "I found it a bit odd that Marble Blast Ultra was in that video, I could swear that was demonstrating Torque's consoles ability (being for the Xbox 360) and didn't have anything to do with XNA, or am I mistaken?"


Yeah, nothing to do with XNA. The only relation it has to the video is it's a 360 Arcade game, and uses Torque for XBOX 360.
It wasn't a particularly amazing game tbh either, they could really do with some better examples like what they were showing off prior to XNAs release.

As far as the drag'n'drop applications go. Personally don't care much for them. It'll be something interesting for those who just want quick and easy games on their 360 console, however it's not exactly fantastic to use.

Something interesting to note though is there is no recoding required for compatibility so, but you do have to make sure all of the resources used are in a compatible format and provided in the projects resource section - otherwise the game ends up with no media because the 360 only uses a few select formats.

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x1b
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 17:21 Edited at: 22nd Dec 2006 17:25
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TGC Out of Business.

I highly doubt any of us, my self included, would stand back and watch TGC dilapidate into non existance. If it came down to such a state of affairs, I for one, would apply for a heavy bankloan to be forwarded to TGC's cause (with complete confidence in making a wise investment in TGC's well being), and proposition my company to sponsor TGC until they got back on their feet.

TGC has a much larger riding than we see on the forum. Alot of us either dont come to the forum or come and browse to stay current events. I my self have been mildly quiet only due to university studies and work, but I am here nearly daily to see whats going on.

I remember a phase of the doom sayers and nay sayers all crying out how Blitz would be TGC's undoing...and now..look whom is dilapidating (personal opinion, of course)

In much less diplomatic choice of words? TGC Out of Business? F*ck that.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 17:26
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Don't worry, things are extremely healthy here to say the least!

No personal bank loans will be required

Heavy on the Magick
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El Goorf
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 17:39
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i dont care what you say about XNA in comparison to DBP, all i have to say is the XNA seems so great for what it does.

if i had a 360, i'd have ran for xna by now. it's just another door opened for budding coders.
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 18:01
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That code... was so unnecessarily complicated!
It was a total mess! Not even DS, which has two processors, is quite that bad! And that constant converting into radians, what is that about? Did you see the build time!?


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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Trinity Pictures
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 19:53
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I wouldn't be worried, yet. First off, DB costs way less than what they're proposing, second, the DB language is easier. Whay I can see that is good from this new product is the X-Box/PC sync. That looks really cool....but for now, LONG LIVE TGC!

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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 20:30
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Quote: "Don't let Jeku hear you say that, he purchased that piece of poo"


For what it's worth, TGB is not "click and play". There's nothing "drag and drop" about it except setting up your scene initially. Everything else is done in C-scripted code.

Last night I created a quick turn-based guessing game that supports multiplayer peer-to-peer---- the Torque networking code is seriously powerful.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 20:37
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Quote: "And that constant converting into radians, what is that about?"


Nearly all languages/libraries that deal with angles use radians...

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 20:48
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That first tutorial makes it look harder than DBP, it looks just like Java but with some prebuilt methods and classes. Don't think I'd be worried about the competition .

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Kentaree
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 20:56
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I wasn't able to find any primitive commands in XNA, so no create cub/sphere etc. which isn't a great loss. However, a lot of rotation stuff and such is done with matrices, which is a lot more complicated than the euler system of rotation used in DBP aswell.
It's closer to DirectX code-wise than DBP to be honest, all it seems to be abstracting away is the managing of Direct3D devices and surfaces.

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Manic
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 21:09
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i didn't really watch it, i only noticed how clear the picture was! i better watch again.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 21:57
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it might look good, but most people are forgetting one thing, you need abit of talent lol, if you can't develop a reasonable game with Blitz or DB Pro you wont stand much of a chance with the 'harder' languages, IMHO

the only way TGC will be stuffed is when someone writes a 'simple' language wrapper - which will happen.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2006 23:37 Edited at: 22nd Dec 2006 23:38
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Quote: "the only way TGC will be stuffed is when someone writes a 'simple' language wrapper - which will happen"

it already did, you cant get much simpler than dbp.
I don't know what's simpler than a directx wrapper accessed via procedural basic. A point-and-click solution may look great but unless it has a complex scripting engine (which will require coding ability anyway) it isnt going to allow some noob to make HL3



Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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Steve J
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 00:02
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@CattleRustler: The point and click solution you describe is FPSC, it has a scripting language and everything...

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VR2
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 01:41
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One must not lose site that XNA, as with Managed DirectX before it (and COM DirectX before that) is not a game engine, just a bunch of helpers (Graphics, sound, input, networking) that, when put together could be used to MAKE a game engine.

With DBPro you have a generic game engine of sorts, where all of these components have been put together for you, so you can concentrate on the gameplay only and never need worry about the internals, vectors, matrices or device resets etc etc.

At least that's the idea. So why do plugins like EZRotate exist? And NG Collision? Or the myriad of others?

The reality, as far as I can tell, is that while your game program progresses with DBPro, you *may* start to feel held back, or hampered, or are waiting around for a bug fix, new plug-in or may just simply have some issues with the API.

Its like DPPro promises alot, and at first it may all look too easy, 5 lines of code for a spinning cube or whatever. But to make any game of worth does take some talent, and some coding ability. This is where the argument of "aimed at beginners" falls rather short IMHO.

Sure a beginner can pick up DBP and "do something" with it but they'll have to progress pretty quickly if they hope to actually finish any game project worth shouting about (rather than just a graphics demo). And there's the rub, by the time they got to imtermediate, they *may* feel that they've outgrown the syntax chores of DBP and they *may* have wished that they'd started with something like XNA and got a good grounding in the 3D basics first, learning to "walk" before trying to "run" as DBP coaxes you to do.

Another way of looking at it might be to say that it really doesn't matter how many lines of C# code it takes to make a spinning cube in XNA, because however many it is, using OO it would only ever need coding once, either by you, or by the vendor of the engine you are using. Sooner or later, C# will make writing your games actually *easier* than procedural BASIC simply by virtue of the nature of object oriented programming.

And I'll not even mention that VS 2005 (and the express versions) represent an industry standard toolset.

So all in all, I'm not so sure that Rich can be quite as complacent as he's appearing here, not just because no one stays beginner for long, but also because it's certain that someone will create an easy to use game engine ontop of what XNA already delivers (like Torque already kindof does).

Bearing in mind that C# Express and XNA are both free, it would give the creators of those engines scope for massive profits, or very low purchase prices, not to mention coming into direct competition with DBP (or even FPS Creator?).
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x1b
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 02:02
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Quote: "the only way TGC will be stuffed"
is if new born yaks learn to code assembler. it's not going to happen.

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Code Dragon
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 02:49 Edited at: 23rd Dec 2006 15:49
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The XNA people said that there's lots of people with great game ideas, but the resorces aren't avaiable or too complicated and they were intimidated. I'm certain that absolutly no one will be more intimidated by this code:



Than that multi-page overly-complicated not-simple Microsoft code. Microsoft can try to take over the gaming industry with their Xbox 360, but they won't beat Nintendo, the Wii is too popular, and they won't beat TCG, DBP is easier than anything else.

I'm using DBP instead of learning DirectX programming for C++ because I don't want to have knowlage for only Windows, I have the feeling that all the bugs in Windows, some from way back in Windows 95, and all the speed loss from their higer level languages continuly being written on top of their not-as-high level languages is all going to catch up them in about 5 years after Windows Vista I'm predicting and Microsoft will fall apart.

Then, we can all use Linux, and reap the benifits of it's security so we don't get viruses.

However, people are still using Windows because:

1. It's familiar, almost everyone who has a computer uses Windows, most average computer users think Windows is good and it's the only operating system they ever used.

2. It's pretty. Some people think what looks good, works good. How wrong they are, Bill Gates' quote "If you can't make it good, make it look good."

3. Games, Windows has the most games. Someone might be able to speed up Microsoft's downfall by writing a code translator from Windows to Linux and port all the games over.

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SageTech
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 03:05
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After watching that video, I now realize just how simple DBPro has made things. While I have a fully functional 3D game engine with physics and collision in less then 200 lines, It would take that much just to look at a rotating model in XNA! Thank you TCG, maybe one day people will come to realize that BASIC doesnt have to mean Basic power, because in your case, it means power and simplicity. Cheers to TCG

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AlexRiva
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 04:28
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What I see is Microsoft, as always, making an attempt to cannibalize another section of market as it's doing with consoles, as it did with operating systems and I don't like this.
That's the kind of path big companies always do: enter in a fragment of market, usually buying a little company already there (and I'll be no surprised if in the near future Microsoft will acquire Torque) and pushing other ones out of the way.

I really hope it will not happen for Indie game making languages!
For me I'll continue making my games with independent game creating languages as DarkBasic is, they're better and if you ask something you have a good explanation! Have you ever tried to have a problem and ask Microsoft for a technical issue?

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Steve J
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@AlexRiva: Its called business, its the reason why billions make money, get used to it

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 05:03
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Let me see if I get this straight... this software basically is just an engine with a purdy IDE for C#?

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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 06:53
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Quote: "Than that multi-page overly-complicated not-simple Microsoft code."


It's *not* complicated code. If anything, the complexity is hidden.

Anyone with half a brain and familiar with OO concepts just has to type out that "complex" code a few times and put them away in classes. Then you can use your classes to load objects, spin them around, etc. with just a few lines. It's not rocket science.

Quote: "Let me see if I get this straight... this software basically is just an engine with a purdy IDE for C#?"


Not quite.. It's not an engine. It's a Direct3D wrapper tweaked specifically for games, and can compile binaries for Windows and Xbox 360. The purdy IDE is just VS.NET 2005 Express.

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Supremacy
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 13:37
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VR2
Quote: "
So all in all, I'm not so sure that Rich can be quite as complacent as he's appearing here, not just because no one stays beginner for long, but also because it's certain that someone will create an easy to use game engine ontop of what XNA already delivers (like Torque already kindof does).

Bearing in mind that C# Express and XNA are both free, it would give the creators of those engines scope for massive profits, or very low purchase prices, not to mention coming into direct competition with DBP (or even FPS Creator?)."


This was my point, you guys are crazy not to take microsoft seriously !! personally i dont like them, but the main thing is that theyre invading the indi market, wich...sucks....but my point is the same has vr2, someone makes a really cool engine for xna, something has easy has dbp, and you guys are in serious trouble !

I mean, Rich, you at least agree in that dont you ?


Quote: "What I see is Microsoft, as always, making an attempt to cannibalize another section of market as it's doing with consoles,"


I never understood the hanger between linux and microsoft, but now I do when theyre messing with the indi turf

Indi:

Quote: "Did you change your name supremacy from mustra zoo or something. thats a name ive heard a while back in time."


yes I did, whats the problem ? Using your "moddy" skills to dig what up ?




Quote: "3. Games, Windows has the most games. Someone might be able to speed up Microsoft's downfall by writing a code translator from Windows to Linux and port all the games over."


This will never happen, directx is exclusive, youll never see a dbpro game working in linux, unless tgc drops in something not directx
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indi
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 14:12
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Actually I looked at your email account name, hardly ubeh skillzors, and the name reminded me of an older user, bit touchy for my liking.

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Code Dragon
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 15:55
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Quote: "Anyone with half a brain and familiar with OO concepts just has to type out that "complex" code a few times and put them away in classes."


True, but I was talking about newcomers to programming, Microsoft might be intimidating potental customers by not hiding that complexity.

"Did I ever tell you how I got the nickname the Dragon of the West?"
"I'm not interested in a lengthy anecdote, Uncle."
"It's more of a demonstration really."
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Hobgoblin Lord
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Location: Fall River, MA USA
Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 16:26
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Quote: "Bearing in mind that C# Express and XNA are both free"


Now It was last semester when I used this, but I could swear on execution it gave me a little window that said Paraphrase "programs compiled under this version are for free distribution only if you paid this program etc etc" (that might have been VS, but I was pretty sure it was in the express license that you could not sell products made with the express version.

http://www.cafepress.com/blackarrowgames
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Jeku
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 19:14
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Quote: "but the main thing is that theyre invading the indi market, wich...sucks"


Why? If you're going to get a job in the game industry as a programmer, there is a good chance you will be using MS' VS.NET, and they've basically given us that for free, now. It used to cost hundreds of dollars. If anything, now is a *great* time to be in the indie market.

Quote: "Microsoft might be intimidating potental customers by not hiding that complexity."


Sure, it's intimidating for people who are not used to C-scripted languages and OO concepts. But one will need to get over that "fear" if they want to do this for a living

http://www.codercafe.com - My blog
Ben Stein's Christmas Thoughts
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Chris K
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 19:46
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The thing that is so awesome about it, is that it is specifically designed for games.

There's a whole lot of crap extra you have to do to get a game running in C++, because C++ can do a lot more than games.

Those videos actually made me phenomenally excited about XNA! Looks freaking sweet!!

Then I read that it doesn't really support animated models yet...

Do you really have to have the membership to run stuff on your 360? Also, how do you connect your 360 to the computer?

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Supremacy
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2006 20:00
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Then I read that it doesn't really support animated models yet..."


you must have read wrong Chris, one of the videos i saw showed a film noir scene with an animated bartender and an animated lady.


Quote: "Do you really have to have the membership to run stuff on your 360? Also, how do you connect your 360 to the computer?"


Yes, but there will always exist "ilegal" work arounds, easy, with a usb cable, theres stuff for that
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