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Geek Culture / is a second language a good idea

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dark donkey
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Posted: 8th Jan 2007 22:48
HI, before i get spammed i am staying with dbpro, but latly i have been thinking about my job when im older and dbpro isnt going to get my a job in computers, so i thought a second language might be a good idea, but dont get me wrong i am definatly going to stay with dbpro as well but just like a hobby language, aspecially now i am working on a very big prodject. So i am concidering learning a second language, i have been looking at a few like c/c++ c# php html but im not sure what will get my a job in game programing since that is what i love doing, i whant to no what you guys think i should try learn, pleas do not flame me i am just lost on which language to start on, i have been considering languages were i will also be able to write dll for dbpro but i dont no which will alow me to do this i think c/c++ and c# will but what about vb im quit intrested in vb.

thanks!
darkdonkey

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John Y
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Posted: 8th Jan 2007 23:10 Edited at: 8th Jan 2007 23:10
Of course learning a second language is a great idea. Download Visual Basic Express or Visual C# Express for free from http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio and have a look.

If you are looking to learn a language which will make you employable, then I recommend Java and C#. Visual Basic is good also, but in my experience you don't get paid as much

Get the new DarkBasic Professional IDE for only $19.99/~£9.85
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 8th Jan 2007 23:34
Musn't forget the all important C++ !

5Louiz
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 00:03
I use c++ because it is more than enough.

Don't even think of VB for heavy game development. If you want a very easy language, learn C# or Java.. maybe Delphi.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 00:28
It is a great idea, it makes you more rounded.

C++ is good stuff and so is C# and even Visual Basic, there are also some great game/3D engines out there, one I recommend is Irrlicht which is quite easy to learn as far as C++ engines go, with support for Direct X and OpenGL (leaving you with multiplatform options). You can pick up free versions of C++ as well, like DevC++, Visual C++ 2005 Express, Code::blocks IDE running MinGW as a C++ compiler.

But if that isn't for you, you can pick up Delphi 7 PE for free from somewhere, it's a good and fairly simple programming language, compatible with Truevision 3D but seems to be windows support only.

It's good to get your head out there, if you're going for C++, I can recommend "C++ for Dummies" it is a great book for beginners and of course it is in plain English as it IS "for dummies" it's directed at the use of DevC++ which is included on the disk.

If you want to tackle other game engines, you could try out Torque and get more of an experience with using a AAA game engine and scripting, although many find it quite difficult and not worth the money if you find yourself put off by the code. Of course a bit of C++ and the C-like structure knowledge is needed the (C-like structure for the scripting, C++ for playing with the actual engine source code, but you cannot play with the source code with the demo version) Torque is fun, but can be difficult to get to grips with, for one thing, following tutorials I cannot get the use of a melee weapon from editing the source code, heck not even simple spell scripts (Mind you I didn't exactly try there)

Hope that offers more insight.

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hyrichter
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 01:52
You can download the new Turbo versions of Delphi and c++ builder 2006 from http://www.turboexplorer.com

There's nothing at all wrong with learning another language. Let's see, I've used DBC, DBP, QBasic, Visual Basic, VB.NET, C++, PHP, ASP, C#, and now Delphi.

Good performance is better than a good excuse.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 07:35
I will agree with John, learning Java or C# would be my choices.

You don't have to become 100% proficient in the languages, but being familiar with them enough to write simple programs and know how to compile with them is a strong skill to have when applying for jobs. I'm familiar with pascal, c++, and getting pretty proficient with Java. I've dabbled in C# and plan to make that my next target.

Jeku
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 08:11
You guys forgot what he asked:

Quote: "what will get my a job in game programing"


Learning Java or C# will not help you get a job in game programming--- unless you're going after the mobile game market. C++ is the way to go if you're serious about learning a second language.

dark donkey
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 18:20
thanks evrey body ive decided to go with c++ as Jeku sugested, this is just a question but ive been wandering for a while what windows and mac are programed in (no im not planning on makeing an os).

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John Y
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 18:23
Quote: "Learning Java or C# will not help you get a job in game programming--- unless you're going after the mobile game market. C++ is the way to go if you're serious about learning a second language."


Depends what the world makes of XNA

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dark donkey
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Posted: 9th Jan 2007 19:47
ok, im probly gonna laern c++, i was just wandering i can make dll in c++ cant i, i also whant to no a bit more about delphi, ive heard of it but dont no much about it. Like is the syntax alot or hardly difrent, also it crossed my mind that are there any c++ engines that make exes that can be played on mac so more people will be able to use my useless pieces of software, im looking at illrich (if thats how you spell it) now Seppuku

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Peter H
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 00:00 Edited at: 10th Jan 2007 00:01
Quote: "i can make dll in c++ cant i"

yes. dlls can be made in c++.


Quote: "are there any c++ engines that make exes that can be played on mac"

Yes there are (such as irrlicht, which you mentioned)

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 00:15
I would read my post too, C++ and game dev can do wonders. If you want to go for ease of use and multiplatform capabilities, then irrlicht is the way to go. All you really have to know first is an overview of working C++ and it's structure and the rest are commands that make sense and previously using DBP will help as you know the mechanics of a game. I would recommend Irrlicht with C++ for getting started (You can make PC games, Mac games and Linux games as well as, once you've got the know how, consoles (This is only theoretical, as I think there has been only one to actually get it onto an Xbox) you also can have it on mobile devices, mirrlicht being the symbian phone version.

The good thing there as well you can integrate irrlicht into dll's as well, as one of the Deled plugins (The test your map with collision one) used irrlicht.

I started using irrlicht with a very slim knowledge of C++ and picked it up quickly. I'm still a beginner, I haven't really touched it due to other things in the way. but this is the sort of thing I've got out so far.





So I would recommend this as a place to start your game stuff in C++, even if you don't use it, what you learn is extremely valuable when working with engines provided by an employer, or using the Open Gl or Direct X api in writing your own.

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dark donkey
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 17:00
thanks evrey one i am now definatly going with c++, i am planing on useing the irrlich engine, one of the main reason becouse of suppukus nice effect in pic 3, i was just whandering what software will let me make dll's that is cheaper than visual studion/. I am planning on makeing some dll's when im more expeerainced in it such as better 3ds support so it dosent take so long.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 20:40
There is no real effect there in pic 3 (its a lightmapped bsp with 3 characters, a light and stencil shadow shading), but you can do much more of course.

As for cheap C++ that allow for dll's...why not 'DevC++' it is completely free and if you check out 'program announcements' someone has recently released a DevC++ DBP dll template. I use it, it has a lack of compatibility with most engines, but is excellent for those getting started and irrlicht works like a charm from it.

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David R
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 20:45
Quote: "Learning Java or C# will not help you get a job in game programming--- unless you're going after the mobile game market. C++ is the way to go if you're serious about learning a second language."


Depends entirely on where you want to work - some game dev houses seem to of picked up C# and other 'simpler'/rapid languages for use in developing internal tools - a good example of this is Lionhead. If you check out their job page, C# is mentioned quite heavily.


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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 21:54
Quote: "a good example of this is Lionhead. If you check out their job page, C# is mentioned quite heavily."


I'm guessing, without looking at the Lionhead page, that C# would be used for tools such as editors, analyzers, profilers, etc. I have yet to see a major game studio switch to C#. Believe me, I would prefer that day to come sooner, as I believe it will.

For someone to have the largest chance possible to get a job programming games, C++ is still the way to go. Sure there may be some small companies that are using C# for their game engines, but I'm sure they will still hire you if you're fluent in C++ and have a degree.

Fallout
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Posted: 10th Jan 2007 22:00
As everyone has said, learn c++ or a c derivitive. So many languages are an off-shoot of C, so once you get a grip with C, it'll stand you in good stead for everything from Java to php. They all use a similar syntax.

Once you've learnt two or three languages, you'll be conditioned to tackle new languages easily. At the moment at work I'm learning Perl for some scripting tasks. As it's a C derivitive I'm picking it up fast and after only a couple of days I've been writing moderately complex programs and test scripts.

So basically, the more languages you can expose yourself to, the more developed your language learning ability will become, and new languages will become trivial to learn.


dark donkey
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 18:11
yea thanks evrey one, im gonna look at devc++, and im probly gonna go with irrlicht for game makeing since i understand that that is fully c++ so im gonna go buy a book on it as i didi with dbpro book 1 and 2, i have tryed ogre but it dident really apeal to me. As for evrey one else a\ big thanks!. im gonna conceon trat on c++ for a while and still do some dbpro then im gonna move onto a difrent language like fallout said so in a few years ill be a multi programer sort of thing, ill probly learn php or an other web language such as flash so i will not only have programing knowledge but also web desighn.


thanks! alot evrey one couldent have asked anything better
Darkdonkey

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John Y
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 18:14
Also, it's good to brush up on your typing skills. When you work for a company, your expected to write emails, instructions etc in English which people can read easily.

Just a heads up

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dark donkey
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 18:23
Quote: "Also, it's good to brush up on your typing skills. When you work for a company, your expected to write emails, instructions etc in English which people can read easily.
"


yeh, i do that alot but if i am writing long inportant emails i write them in word first beacouse it has a dictionary thing then copy and past it.

John thanks for the fast reply
Suppuku devc++ looks really good nownloading now

thanks
Darkdonkey

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hyrichter
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 19:30
Quote: "When you work for a company, your expected to write emails, instructions etc in English which people can read easily.
"

And to know the difference between "your" and "you're."


Have fun with C++, but please, there's really no excuse to type such poorly spelled and structured sentences. If you're as careless typing your c++ code as you are with your forum posts, I'm afraid that the compiler will have a harder time understanding you than we do.

Good performance is better than a good excuse.
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John Y
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 19:39
haha, ah, but you can still read it.

I do write you're when I write text by hand, it's just one of those typing things, like people type teh. But, people just do that because they think it's clever these days

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dark donkey
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 17:56
ok, i have a c++ engine (devc++ as suppuku sugested), but now im gonna buy a book on it i have lowerd it to the books i think look best (not the covers)

ones here ill get the lnik for the other one soon
http://www.amazon.com/C%2B%2B-Dummies-Stephen-Randy-Davis/dp/0764568523/sr=8-25/qid=1168620944/ref=sr_1_25/105-0482883-5608458?ie=UTF8&s=books

thanks

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enablerbr
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 19:56 Edited at: 12th Jan 2007 19:57
if your focus is on gaming and c++. maybe take a look at the Game Institute web site. http://www.gameinstitute.com/
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 00:07
Dark Donkey, I have that exact book sitting on the shelf above me, I've only done chapter 1 and 2, it is very simple, its in plain English, it used DevC++ and keeps you informed of terminology etc. You don't make anything hugely exciting, but what you learn can be applied so much, like when learning German, you learn how to say 'Where are the peanuts' but don't always have to write a novel if you catch my drift. I think C++ for Dummies is a good starting point, I mean from there I'm sure the internet could be your guide, or perhaps further books or education.

The applications you make seem to be only console based ones that possess the use of as much of the actual language it can, its not flashy, but you have irrlicht to do that with.

If you wish to know, the chapters are as follows (suddenly its not on the shelf above anymore, agh! thieves! )

Part 1- Intro
-Writing your first C++ app
-Declaring Variables constantly
-Performing Mathematical Operations
-Performing Logical Operations
-Controlling Program Flow
Part 2 - Becoming a functional C++ Programmer
-Creating Functions (This becomes very important in any C++ application, there are several types and will be used in game dev, you'll need a place to fully understand these, same for most of the C++ architecture)
-Storing Sequences in Arrays
-Taking a first look at C++ pointers
-Taking a Second look at C++ pointers
-Debugging C++
Part 3 - Introduction to classes (You will find it difficult to avoid these)
-Examining Object-oriented programming
-Adding class to C++
-Making Classes work
-Point and stare at objects
-Protecting members: Do not disturb


And a load more (Sorry, contents was larger than I first perceived )

This should be a good book if you're sticking you're head in the door and saying 'is this room 182?'.

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dark donkey
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Posted: 13th Jan 2007 11:03
thanks alot evrey one, heres the second one i was nebt to most but im not sure if it uses c++

http://www.amazon.co.uk/o/ASIN/1932111913/ref=s9_asin_image_1/202-7495190-6454261

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dark donkey
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 10:44
i just have another few questions,

1.do i have to write a 3d file opener for my files

2.do objects get object numbers like in dbpro so i can easyilly move then scale them or have easy collision detection instead of haveing to program evrey polly collision

3. how would i go about makeing a chase cam in c++

4. in irrlicht do i still have to do the include stuff

thanks! alot for any answers, sorry if i sound too noobish.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 11:19 Edited at: 14th Jan 2007 11:21
The objects work differently than in DBPro, try to think of scene management like you would get in a 3D modeller.

You have to declare a scene manager, then use scene manager to load an object, then apply a node to it, you can use the node label to use the object, so for example:


That's using scene manager (declared as smgr) to make a mesh from the file. 'mesh' is the name of this


This is making the mesh a node, basically scene object that uses the mesh called 'mesh'. (A node can contain more than 1 mesh)

Of course, now that you have a mesh and a node, you can manipulate the node in particularly, for example:



So essentially you can think of objects as labels in irrlicht as opposed to numbers as in DBP.

[edit]

Also, follow as many of the tutorials as you can first, same for C++ ones, you will grab a deeper understanding, don't jump in the deep end yet, once you know how to work them both, you'll see you'll be able to apply principles from DBP onto irrlicht, or just check their forum for code snippets, tutorials or help.

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dark donkey
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 14:49
ok, so if i am right this will turn the object into a mesh (i think)
, and thats all im gonna go on the irrlicht web site and look at some tuts, im gonna also have a look over your message a few times i think the second line og code you put makes my mesh into a node am i right. Any way it a releafe not having to make an open opener thingy for my self (it would be as slow as dbpro and 3ds files).

thanks

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 15:03
You could have look at my message over and over, but you need not to, because the exact lines of code I took from the first tutorial, it takes some understanding at first, but I'll try to answer as many questions as I can, but remember I'm just a beginner too

I'll try and make a diagram of what an object in Irrlicht is.

-Scene/Scene Manager (Contains the commands needed for a scene)-
AnimatedNode (An object, or objects that are animated, all properties are controlled here)
Mesh - A 3D mesh, which can be attached to a node.

You'll find a lot of things in irrlicht can be attached to a type of node, lights included, if you will a node is something with its attached properties that the programmer controls, but each node can be a different type, that sydney model is an animated 3D mesh, so it gets an animated mesh node.

I'll try to re-write the first tutorial of irrlicht, but in plain English to take you on every step of the way.

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dark donkey
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 15:50
I have a noobish question but i cant find an answere, ive downloaded irrlich but now wha theres no installer exe or anything ive searched, a guy tolsd me to run the file in the bin/win3d visual folder but thats full of demos (the collision one looks cool).

Thanks!
darkdonkey

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 16:29 Edited at: 14th Jan 2007 16:30
Irrlicht is a library (like Newton.dll is to Darkbasic, heck you can use newton in irrlicht as well as PhysX and other physics engines, but I'd learn those much later), not an executable program, you make C++ read it, if you want to know to make DevC++ use irrlicht, there is a tutorial here:

http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/tut_devcpp.html

Irrlicht is basically spread out through those folders as .h's, .dll's .lib's etc.

Also, I've just finished rewriting the first irrlicht tutorial with a larger explanation on what means what. I hope it becomes of good use.

http://seppuku-arts.koetsuaboshi.net/?q=node/24

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dark donkey
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 16:36
Thank you i get it now so i would have to do #include irrlicht.h
or whatever that comand looks like.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 16:53
Yes, just make sure you set up your compiler before coding, it's very different to DBP, but you should get the hang of things.

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dark donkey
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 17:50
Thanks! suppuku youv been a big help.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Jan 2007 17:52
No problem, glad that I was of help.

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