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Geek Culture / Vista 'Craplets' - M$ already making lame excuses

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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 18:50
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Craplets' could damage Vista launch: Microsoft exec

A senior Microsoft Corp. executive says the company is concerned that uncertified third-party software loaded onto new computers by manufacturers could hurt the launch of consumer versions of its Windows Vista operating system later this month.

In a discussion Tuesday night at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, the Microsoft official told CBC News Online, on condition of anonymity, that the world's largest software maker is frustrated by legal shackles that prevent the company from restricting what kinds of software major computer makers install on new PCs.

"We can't do anything about it because it would be illegal," the executive said in reference to restrictions placed on the company following a U.S. federal anti-trust lawsuit against the company.
________________________________________________________________
Although I am using my XP laptop more and more over time due to the high speed wireless connection in my apartment complex, and incompatibility with more and more new hardware, my Windows 98SE install is still my main system.

My used extensively almost every day installation of Windows 98 turns 5 years old this January 28th! My OS cost is down to under $1 per week.

A full installation of Windows 98SE fully patched is very stable (no IE6 upgrade), I know how to treat it (Firebird/Firefox).
No unexplained crashing. No reinstallations ever.
It boots just as fast as XP-SP2 on half the speed hardware.

When history repeats we'll hear how crappy XP really is, from those who want us to "upgrade" to Vista.

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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 18:56
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From the article:
Quote: ""They could work fine, or they could cause huge problems," the Microsoft source said. "The problem is that we just don't know. And if someone buys a Vista PC and has a problem, they're going to blame Windows.""


Shouldn't a consumer blame Vista if the system fails due to a bad app?

I am not referring to a crash of the OS forcing a reboot,
I am referring to the disabling of the OS forcing surgery or reinstallation?

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John Y
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 19:07
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I think that is a fair comment from Microsoft. When I bought a laptop from Dell I spent the entire night removing all of the crap off it. It worked much faster after I had uninstalled things such as AOL, Dell media management software etc.

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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 19:15
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I guess user expectations have changed.

I could not stand it if my system crashed and I had to reinstall and/or go through reactivation/authorization.

I'd expect the OS to be immune from anything but malicious attack but I must be too old-fashioned.

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Raven
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 19:31
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I completely agree with Microsoft's comments.
Look at it this way..

It'd be like the TPCs and DBPro. TGC can't really be blamed if someone's 3rd party attempt constantly crashes DBP and makes it unusable. People however will still blame DBPro being crap rather than the plug-in itself.

That's the worry Microsoft have here.

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Ian T
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 19:58
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It is indeed a fair comment from MS. Their operating systems might suck, but the background-loading BS that manufacturers pile on before selling their computers makes things a lot worse for no good reason. I think the laws restricting them from having quality standards for packaged-in software should be reexamined, at the very least.
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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 20:16
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Any quality standards they would impose if allowed would be governed by dollars, not end user empowerment.

Anything that restricts Microsoft is fine by me.
But then again I'm old fashioned, I believe in individual not coporate freedom.

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Han
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 20:44
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*lol* i have windows98Se ,too.....

I had to deinstall Windows95 some time ago,because DirectX8 doesn't work on windows95!

I hope that it won't be the same thing with Windows98Se directX10......
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John Y
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 20:45 Edited at: 11th Jan 2007 20:45
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Quote: "I hope that it won't be the same thing with Windows98Se directX10"


You're in for a shock then, you won't even be able to get away with going to Windows XP

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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 20:59 Edited at: 11th Jan 2007 21:00
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Han, DirectX 8.0 actually works on Windows 95.
8.1 dropped the Win95 support.

Like Synergy IDE Developer indicated,
DX10 has zero compatibility with any other OS.
New methods, a clean break.

As long as they don't prematurely drop support for XP
AND allow reactivations after the end of the lifecycle
I think will be good to go with DX9 for a bit on XP.
And 98!

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John Y
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 21:01
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Quote: "Like Synergy IDE Developer indicated,"


You're welcome to call me John

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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 21:05 Edited at: 11th Jan 2007 21:06
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Sorry about that, John.

Do you think that M$ will allow free XP reactivations after the end of mainstream product support?

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John Y
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 21:06
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Yes, of course. Alot of companies will continue to use Windows XP until they have to upgrade because they buy new hardware. Which, isn't that often

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Jeku
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 22:03
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Dude, I *hate* craplets as much as the next guy. Is it me or do you enjoy anti-MS press?

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Han
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 22:09
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One moment please......

Did i get it right?


DX10 works only on Windows Vista?

If so,I think i should learn how to handle OpenGL.....
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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 22:52
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OpenGL? We think alike Han.

BTW, 'extended support' for Windows 98SE ended 7/11/2006.

The following is from http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3221
___________________________________________

Products Released: Windows XP Home Edition

General Availability Date: 12/31/2001

Mainstream Support Retired: Review Note

Extended Support Retired: Review Note

Service Pack Retired: Not Applicable

Notes: Mainstream support will end two years after the next version of this product is released.

_______________________________________

0) Can I safely assume the next version referred to is the forthcoming Vista Home?
1) What does "Service Pack Retired: Not applicable" actually mean?
2) I think in two years it will cost to reactivate Windows eXPires. I'm thinking $40. Any thoughts?

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Han
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 22:59
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I always touhgt that "end of support" means that they wont help you when you call to get help regarding this product,but it seems that "end of support" means "We'll force the world to code their stuff,so that it won't work on your Pc,until you buy our next Os...mauhahahaha"
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Phaelax
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 23:13
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I have to agree with Microsoft on this issue. They can't be blamed for uncertified applications that don't work properly.

Quote: "BTW, 'extended support' for Windows 98SE ended 7/11/2006."


Which was much much longer than they gave for Win2k.

And do my eyes deceive me, or is Heartbone back on the forum?

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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 23:28 Edited at: 11th Jan 2007 23:29
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Ha ha ha at craplets.

I hate when you get lots of new stuff on a computer *ALMOST* as much as I hate people that have tons of stuff on Startup. Grrrrr!

When I got my first own computer, it came with Driver pre-installed on it as well as about 10 other (very lame) 2D games. The only issue was, the music from the game came from the game CD, and so it wouldn't work. (We werent' provided with the CD).

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 11th Jan 2007 23:34
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Dell is the WORST with the craplets preinstalled.


Its 9/11 - but its FAKE 9/11 Ts=SQRT(Df/16)
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the_winch
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 00:06
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What if someone wanted to install useful software that wasn't rubbish? Like one of the free office apps. I don't see why everybody should have to suffer just because some like will install any old rubbish.

I suspect it's more about control than buggy software.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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heartbone
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 01:44
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Phaelax, I've been here all the time, I just did not have anything to type.

I find it hard to symphathize with a company fretting about buggy third party software being installed on its flagship OS.

I still believe that the primary purpose for a computer operating system is to run the user's applications.

If Vista is going to react poorly to them, then it is not ready for the consumer market.

As far as bundled software, there are plusses and minuses,
however I'd prefer to have it than not to have it.

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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 02:42
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Quote: "If Vista is going to react poorly to them, then it is not ready for the consumer market."


Yes, you're right that an OS shouldn't slow to a halt, but some programmers are REALLY ignorant. There are a million + 1 ways to mess with a Windows system if you're a mischevious (or ignorant) programmer.

Vista shouldn't *have* to protect us from each other. We choose to get craplets installed on our machines as it brings down the price of said machine (this is a fact), so it's our own cheap faults.

When I last installed SUSE Linux I could swear I had about 500 craplets installed as well.

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Raven
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 04:33
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Quote: "Yes, you're right that an OS shouldn't slow to a halt, but some programmers are REALLY ignorant. There are a million + 1 ways to mess with a Windows system if you're a mischevious (or ignorant) programmer.

Vista shouldn't *have* to protect us from each other. We choose to get craplets installed on our machines as it brings down the price of said machine (this is a fact), so it's our own cheap faults. "


This hits the nail on the head.
It shouldn't be Microsoft's place to have to protect users about poorly programmed applications, or the useage.

I mean Windows XP runs just fine on a default install on a Pentium II 266MHz w/128MB SDRAM 133MHz and 2MB S3 ViRGE 2D AGP Card. Performance wise it's absolutely fine.

Install Norton Security and Anti-Virus, instantly you're looking at even high-end retail systems currently being release becoming unusable due to it's 50% resource useage. This is independant of what resources are available.

To me that is just POOR PROGRAMMING, and not Windows fault. However users constantly bitch, claiming that Windows is crap and slow despite it being Norton's fault.

Microsoft are currently working on an update to provide users will the ability to see what resources and what problem areas installed applications have with Vista.

imo I'm getting completely hacked off each time someone starts crap like this over completely legitimate conserns from a company like Microsoft. Seriously, they're conserns might be because of potencial money loss due to a bad reputation of a product; but whatever they come up with will only go to benefit the end-users.

If you don't like Microsoft, or Windows then piss off and use *nix exclusively. Otherwise, leave them alone and let them do their damn job.

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UnderLord
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 05:14
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Quote: "I think that is a fair comment from Microsoft. When I bought a laptop from Dell I spent the entire night removing all of the crap off it. It worked much faster after I had uninstalled things such as AOL, Dell media management software etc.
"


When i got my dell labtop it took me 4 hours to remove all the crap they put on there =\ i went from 66 processes at start up to 35-40

"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."
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HowDo
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 05:57
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Ah! remember when the drive came blank and all the fodder was in a box and you chose what to put on the drive.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 06:04 Edited at: 12th Jan 2007 06:05
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Quote: "When i got my dell labtop it took me 4 hours to remove all the crap they put on there = i went from 66 processes at start up to 35-40"
Yikes. When I got my HP computer it had quite a few processes running, about 48 I think. I got rid of some I thought where unnecessary, and uninstalled any stuff that I didn't need. It wasn't too bad though, there wasn't too much crap on there - to be honest some of it was useful.

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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 09:30
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Hey Heartbone, ever think the ONLY way to stop crappy software from bringing down an OS is to not have third party software run at all? Look at what Apple is doing with their iPhone--- not allowing third party software to run on it, for just that reason.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/11/technology/11cnd-apple.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

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heartbone
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 18:27
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It is Apple's phone.
Apple's creation.
It makes great sense there.

Comparing a Wintel PC to the iPhone is inappropriate.
If M$ could have their way, Vista would be locked as well.
I'd love to let them try it.
I'd love to see them make that fly.
It is impossible of course.
Who would use a computer with only M$ authorized applications?

As long as they don't pull the plug on XP sales
or free XP reactivations
it will be a long time before MOST personal computer users will subject themselves to the DRM focused hardware/software that is Vista.

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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 18:33
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You're missing my point

You clearly do not understand that it is impossible for an OS to keep out mischevious programs which could bring it down. Impossible. Apple recognizes this, so they're closing off to the 3rd parties. MS *can't* close the door, and yet people still blame them for when a 3rd party program goes mental.

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the_winch
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 18:56
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Quote: "Apple recognizes this, so they're closing off to the 3rd parties."


Apple are big on vertical integration. They care much more about controlling what you can run so the phone works with their other products not a competitors. The last thing they want is someone like microsoft getting their DRM onto it.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
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heartbone
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 19:50
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Jeku, you have no idea what I understand.

MS could have "closed the door" if they hade done the ethical and correct thing. That is, present Vista as an entirely new product.

Instead they roll out Vista as a replacement for XP,
which it truly isn't.

Therefore it inherits the yoke.

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heartbone
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 19:54
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Before anyone challenges my assertion about the replacement status,
think about this.

Q: Can you run Vista on a XP motherboard?

A: No.

Ergo, it's not a replacement OS.

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David R
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 20:14
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Quote: "
Q: Can you run Vista on a XP motherboard?

A: No."


Um, yes it can


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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 20:30
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Quote: "This hits the nail on the head.
It shouldn't be Microsoft's place to have to protect users about poorly programmed applications, or the useage.

I mean Windows XP runs just fine on a default install on a Pentium II 266MHz w/128MB SDRAM 133MHz and 2MB S3 ViRGE 2D AGP Card. Performance wise it's absolutely fine.

Install Norton Security and Anti-Virus, instantly you're looking at even high-end retail systems currently being release becoming unusable due to it's 50% resource useage. This is independant of what resources are available.

To me that is just POOR PROGRAMMING, and not Windows fault. However users constantly bitch, claiming that Windows is crap and slow despite it being Norton's fault.

Microsoft are currently working on an update to provide users will the ability to see what resources and what problem areas installed applications have with Vista.

imo I'm getting completely hacked off each time someone starts crap like this over completely legitimate conserns from a company like Microsoft. Seriously, they're conserns might be because of potencial money loss due to a bad reputation of a product; but whatever they come up with will only go to benefit the end-users.

"


I agree entirely Raven, There's nothing at all that Microsoft can do if the product is poorly programmed other than the handling when it crashes.

What also makes me laugh is when people blame Windows for getting them viruses and spyware, and general crap. Granted, the use of Internet Explorer (< v6 particularly) makes you a lot more prone to the introduction to spyware to the system, but most of the time it's the users fault for connecting to the internet without having means of cleaning up the mess that the sites you visit leave.

I don't know, but of late people seem to be jumping on the bandwagon when it comes to ripping Windows - there seem to be loads of posts like this on many forums without people thinking through it logically.

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heartbone
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 20:40
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Quote: "Um, yes it can "


Of course a newer motherboard is designed for it.
But I doubt if a 3 year old XP SP1 laptop has a chance.
Even with a full install version.

We will soon see.

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David R
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 20:58
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Quote: "Of course a newer motherboard is designed for it.
But I doubt if a 3 year old XP SP1 laptop has a chance.
Even with a full install version.

We will soon see."


My 2003-built XP machine, built specifically for XP, can run Vista perfectly. So a 3 year old laptop will run it fine


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heartbone
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 21:22
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Your 2003 laptop most certainly qualifies as an XP motherboard.

So how can you tell that it runs Vista as Vista has not been released?

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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 21:26
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Quote: "But I doubt if a 3 year old XP SP1 laptop has a chance.
Even with a full install version."


That's not surprising at all. Can you run XP on a 486 motherboard? Thought not.

Quote: "So how can you tell that it runs Vista as Vista has not been released?"


The beta's have been out for ages.

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heartbone
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 21:35
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I know the beta existed.

But I was also informed that Vista needs DX10.

Is there also a DX10 beta?

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David R
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 21:37
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Quote: "But I was also informed that Vista needs DX10.

Is there also a DX10 beta? "


Vista uses Aero/DX10. It is an integral part of the OS, hence why it's unlikely you'll ever see DX10 on <Vista. Therefore, any Vista install (even the betas) have DX10 built-in.


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_Nemesis_
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I think you're getting a bit confused here by the sound of it heartbone. You don't need to have DX10 installed to install Vista, you don't need anything installed at all.

It's the other way round, DX10 needs Vista. And no, with Vista Final created about a month or two back - with companies and business already able to buy it, and has been shipped to official beta participents - DX10 is also final and included with Vista.

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heartbone
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Posted: 12th Jan 2007 21:56 Edited at: 12th Jan 2007 22:01
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Intentionally or not, I think the confusion is rampant!


DX10 was released on November 30, 2006

The deal is this.
from http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/directx_10_graphics_preview/page2.asp

The one thing that Microsoft has done with Vista is incorporate a subsystem that will comply with DirectX 9.0 graphics hardware due to the population of users that still own DX9-compliant hardware. This subsystem will be named none other than DirectX 9.0L. So, in short, if you have DirectX 9 hardware, you will be using DirectX 9.0L as your API in Windows Vista.

DirectX 9L will support all the fancy eye candy effects Microsoft has integrated into Vista’s Aero Glass interface, so DX9 users will still get the 3D desktop and all its effects under DirectX 9.0L. According to Microsoft, it would be difficult to port DirectX 10 to older operating systems like Windows XP due to the new driver model.

---------------------------------------------------------

If your laptop has DX9 gfx card then you have a theoretical chance of running Vista.

But....
What happened to the Palladium initiatiave?
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:
PvtDLfG-qk8J:www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2002/jul02/07-01palladium.mspx+palladium&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6
I doubt if it disappeared.
I'm sure some form is in the actual full Vista experience.

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