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Geek Culture / What is your opinion/view/comment on the legal issue of abandonware?

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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 26th Jan 2007 05:50
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I have been reading articles, asking individual people, and contacting game makers, asking then about abandonware, and now I am asking you guys.

1. Do you think that abandonware should be legal? why or why not?

2. As game programmers, would you feel honored that people like your game enough to want to preserve it, or insulted that are distributing unlicensed copies of it?

3. Can you think of any alternatives to preserving older titles?

4. Do you have any links to articles that have valuable or unique information on the topic in question? I have read probably twenty articles on it, including all of the ones that are linked from The Official Abandonware Ring

"I admire its purity, a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality"

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dark coder
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Posted: 26th Jan 2007 06:58
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It depends on the definition, I would like to think abandonware means games that have stopped being sold from anywhere and thus cannot be obtained, other than from 2nd hand sources but even then the original developers/publishers don't get ay moneyb from that.

so:

1) Yes I do, as if the game isn't being sold by any store then, they aren't going to see another sale, so it's pointless making that illegal IMO.

2) Absolutely, assuming I programmed a commercial title, that over the years lost all sales of it, then I would love it if people distributed it, as they cannot buy it themselves and it gives people enjoyment out of it.

3) Other than some site which sells every game ever made, and would sell very old titles for cheap ammounts,no.

4) Nop.

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Van B
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Posted: 26th Jan 2007 09:05
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Some companies don't mind, to be clear we're talking about the abandonware that you'd download yes?.

I like abandonware, because I have an old laptop with a bust CD-Rom, abandonware is the best way to get old games for older machines, it keeps old PC hardware useful for longer.

Now if I decide that I'd like to play a skirmish on an RTS on the Laptop and PC, well finding a recent game in the first place that would run on the laptop is a no-go, so really the best games for this are the 2D era of RTS games, C&C Tib Sun, Warcraft, Shogun... And you can't effectively buy these games any longer, so when they're available for download as abandonware I think that the original publishers are doing us a massive favour.

These games might not make another penny in revenue, but they might instigate some interest in their newer games, like the original Warcraft might just make you want to try Warcraft3, or even WoW. Maybe publishers should just shut the hell up and take advantage - like add some page adverts to their old titles, and release them for free, because if people wanted they could download pirate versions anyway.

This argument goes hand in hand with the arguments for emulation. Really, I think that publishers only care when there's earning potential, and developers mostly just want people to play and appreciate their games. The thing is, some publishers hold on, like proud mothers watching their kid start high school - you can't simply go and download Attic Attac on the spectrum, because the copyright is enforced, unlike the hundreds of other spectrum game publishers, Ultimate Play the Game have withdrawn permission - permission that is assumed really, but hell I wanna play Attic Attac and Jetpac without feeling like a criminal. If Ultimate had a NDS title, like all their old speccy games on an emu style cartridge, then I'd buy it - instead I have to use a homebrew spectrum emulator to get my fix. Denying distribution of a 20 year old game with no future plans seems a bit huffy to me, like we did something to annoy them to warrant it.

Anyhoo, I suppose my point is that publishers need to realise just who is in charge of the games industry (US!) - and if we want's something we get's it - and abandonware is like the thinest argument they have, to the point that they look like petty a-holes when they kick up a stink.

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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Jan 2007 09:31
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I am a hypocrite.

On the one hand I have enjoyed abandonware titles, especially old Atari 1040 ST games I used to play as a kid that I can't buy.

But on the other hand, if I created a character and/or game, say, Sonic, and 15 years down the line I was planning to eventually release a new game or re-release the original on a new system, I would fight like hell to keep my games off the abandonware sites.

So honestly, like a lot of other things, I don't have the proper opinion. EA makes a new Madden every year, so would it be ok to download Madden '93? While one half of me says yes, the other half says no, because it's still a copyrighted trademark. Plus, Madden '93 was re-released on a TV adapter game, *and* on the special edition of Madden '05 if I remember correctly.

It's a tough thing.

I would *not* shed a tear over a franchise that is owned by nobody, i.e. the original dev went under and nobody bothered to buy up the rights.

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Van B
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Posted: 26th Jan 2007 10:21
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Hehe, yeah but the ST doesn't count - if it did, then the authorities would be most interested in that 'emu - ST' folder on my PC, I must have a good majority of the games ever made for the ST, so it can't count because then I would be a criminal.

People often disagree with this, but really if there was a new way to pay for these games then I would. I mean there's a plugin game now, Megadrive versions but this pair of MD controllers that plug right into the TV, and gives Mega-Lo-Mania, Sensible Soccer, and Cannon Fodder. These 3 are classics, so I've ordered this little gadget - effectively paying for 3 MD games. Perhaps there should be a iTunes style system for emulation, where you pay a few pence for a ROM - having a lot of roms legally and cleanly on a site would be worth the money alone!. It's a bit late now, but back in the day, if they standardized rom formats and made them a purchasable entity, then people would have payed. I've lost count of the number of times I've bought Bubble Bobble, or Pearl Jam's Ten album, some things are just crucial regardless of their cost.

The way I see it, it's not our fault that they can't make money on it outside of XBox live and the Wii alternative - the Wii is a great example of how it could have been done. Look at the PSP, it has a formidible PSX emulator developed by Sony - they could convert and re-release their back catalogue for PSX on the PSP, a lot of potential revenue right there, people wouldn't mind paying £20 or so for a PSX classic, we'll just have to see what Sony have planned for this.

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Wiggett
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Posted: 26th Jan 2007 12:20
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i am all for abandonware games, you just can't buy ultima 8 anymore, I payed like $100 just to get a p 2 233, (same as my old pc which is now dead) froma country town, just so I could play liero. (and of course other old school games). Getting these games to run on nowaday's computers is a nightmare! dos box works when you tweak it, but it needs to be tweaked for each game! BAH!

on anothe rnote, at cash converters (a second hand dealer) about 5 years ago, I bought a copy of Crusader: No Remorse. I took it home and my computer could only see an autorun file on it, which when ran only showed me a screen saying future releases. Which were just videos of games I had already played yonks ago. [I]here's where the story gets interesting...[/I] I found the cd in amongst some other random ones and decided to give it a try in my new dvd burner drive, and alas, it had more files! I had to do some sodding around in dos box to install it, then i finally after 5 years got to play it.


it sucked hard. very hard, what a waste. Luckily it was only $2. I don't mind paying $2 for abandonware games, but does the company really profit from making these games available through a service for such little income? it'd be more in their benefit to release these games to the abandonware sites and reap benefits from people becoming fans of their work.

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 26th Jan 2007 13:21
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Quote: "1. Do you think that abandonware should be legal? why or why not? "


No. Why should games be different from any other form of entertainment media ? The creators/license holders are the only one's who can decide what's acceptable usage. If they choose to freely distribute old titles then they should applauded, if not, so be it. It's their choice!


Quote: "2. As game programmers, would you feel honored that people like your game enough to want to preserve it, or insulted that are distributing unlicensed copies of it?"


If a developer produces a program that is widely loved/successful, then I think it stands to reason they'd feel a sense of pride in that. But that doesn't change the fact that it's theirs to do with as they see fit.



Quote: "3. Can you think of any alternatives to preserving older titles?"


I think the concept of preserving software (games/apps/etc), or any digital media for that matter is indeed a valid one, there's obviously a need. Which is only going to get bigger.

Obviously from the users perspective, a free officially licensed service would be the ideal situation. Perhaps something like the preservation societies that exist for film/television. I just can't imagine that surviving without some serious support. Since obviously a lot of (c) owners today, would be looking to earn a $$ from their back catalog.

So some sort of content on demand system is probably a more realistic option. Gives the provider & (c) holders a few bucks and requires minimal effort on the developers part. Like Itunes for retro games

Replaying the content legally on your device of choice is another issue though.


Quote: "4. Do you have any links to articles that have valuable or unique information on the topic in question? I have read probably twenty articles on it, including all of the ones that are linked from The Official Abandonware Ring"


Nope.


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Raven
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Posted: 26th Jan 2007 14:25
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Quote: "1. Do you think that abandonware should be legal? why or why not?"


I think it should be, because the term abandonware is for software that no longer has valid support.
A good example would be Bullfrog's games, like Populus, Theme-Series, Magic Carpet, etc.. the company no longer exists after EA bought them out and redistributed all of the employees.
While EA still own the rights to these games, and refuse to allow them as abandonware; they never have provided any form of support for them (this was all done by Bullfrog itself) and refuse to acknowledge they even exist until someone pirates them claiming abandonware.

I have nothing against buying older games, but if I purchase something for my computer I want it to do one thing.

Provided I have the specifications to run it, that it RUNS.
I don't want to pay for something that is incompatible with my Operating System, and it's not really Microsoft's responsibility to make sure that all software from DOS->Windows 3.x->Windows9x runs on the most modern variants of their OS. I believe it's the retailers responsibility to provide a realistic means to run the software provided.

Quote: "2. As game programmers, would you feel honored that people like your game enough to want to preserve it, or insulted that are distributing unlicensed copies of it?"


I would prefer to reserve the right for the means to it's distribution, but that said if I stopped supporting something I've made I would make it freely available; or re-release under GPL to prevent others making money from something that will give the end-users enough grief to get running properly.

Quote: "3. Can you think of any alternatives to preserving older titles?"


Actually I think the means are already available for providing a realistic alternative.

Steam/Live provide means for electronic distribution.
Emulators provide means for running under any Operating System.

What needs to happen is for the larger companies to join together to provide legal emulators for older systems, that would run older games and help create the platform to release them.

Until that happens though abandonware and piracy are going to remain very rife. I think the situation Micro-soft had with their original basic covered this quite well. People will distribute anything they feel they are owed, when you provide them with a legal means to obtain what they want with REASONABLE prices; then they will.

Abandonware needs to be easier, not more difficult. As people will always seek an easier option.

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GatorHex
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Posted: 26th Jan 2007 17:18 Edited at: 26th Jan 2007 17:21
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You should always get permision from the copyright holder 1st and make no proffit from it beyond hosting costs in my opinion.

I suspect the way the law works is that you have to prove you lost money because of it.

If your work was distributed freely and you were creditted for making it, you would find it hard to bring a damages claim.

Sites that distribute free/demo software would use this defense if anyone said, "oy! you copied my work without asking me!"

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David R
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Posted: 26th Jan 2007 17:38
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Quote: "to provide legal emulators for older systems
"


Emulation is not illegal as it is I believe. It's predominantly the software that is the legal tricky part, not the emulators themselves

Quote: "As people will always seek an easier option."


Very true. I'll feely admit that I illegally obtain music from the internet (flame all you like, I don't give a crud) and the only reason for this, is the lack of an easier alternative:

a) I want my music on my PC without ripping

b) I don't want to have to go to a shop

c) I don't want to deal with the hassle of credit card transactions every time I want a track

d) I don't want pestering DRM standing in my way

As soon as there is a mechanism that removes those faults of legal music downloading, I'll most definitely use it.


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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Jan 2007 17:40 Edited at: 26th Jan 2007 17:42
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Quote: "A good example would be Bullfrog's games, like Populus, Theme-Series, Magic Carpet, etc.. "


Your example is flawed, as tons of retro EA games are released under their Replay franchise, and Sim Theme Park is being released on the DS within the next few months. Just because a game hasn't been re-released or sequel-ized in 15 years doesn't mean it won't be in the future.

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Van B
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Posted: 26th Jan 2007 17:52
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Looking forward to Theme Park DS, just hope they ironed out the niggles from the PC version.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 26th Jan 2007 21:44
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Quote: "Emulation is not illegal as it is I believe. It's predominantly the software that is the legal tricky part, not the emulators themselves "


I believe if you own a physical copy of the game then downloading and running the rom on your emulator is not illegal... I am not a lawyer, however, and so I might be wrong...


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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Jan 2007 21:59
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I believe you'd transfer and make the ROM yourself. I believe that regardless of anything, downloading a copyrighted ROM is illegal.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 27th Jan 2007 00:09
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Quote: "I believe you'd transfer and make the ROM yourself. I believe that regardless of anything, downloading a copyrighted ROM is illegal."


Well I did a bit of research and yes you would have to make the backup yourself... BUT some companies (Nintendo for one) have it in the license agreement that you can't make a backup of the software which is technically what you'd be doing...

I can see Nintendo being a bit more strict about getting their roms off the internet as they are now selling older games on the VC...


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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 27th Jan 2007 01:18
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Quote: "I believe you'd transfer and make the ROM yourself. I believe that regardless of anything, downloading a copyrighted ROM is illegal."


I have my doubts about this: it's holding a copy for which you haven't paid royalties that is the problem. It shouldn't be how you obtained this backup from. As long as the "backup" person hasn't charged you for anything more than the trouble of making the copy, that is.

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Raven
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Posted: 27th Jan 2007 08:54
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Emulators are only legal to develop if you have permission from the original manufacturer, otherwise it falls under the same laws as creating backups.

In the UK you are legally allowed to create a single backup of ANY form of media. However what people don't realise is that this extends only to personal use, and must be backed up on to identical media.

So for example if you wanted to ripp a CD to you're PC, then technically speaking that is illegal without permission from whoever created the CD; however you can legally do a 1:1 CDR/W copy of the disc for use on any other device.

Despite MP3 players, and Media Players allowing this; in the TOS, it is still technically counted as an illegal backup. As it is not to any form of media. In the United States, you may make back-ups provided doing so is not against the User License Agreement.

Quote: "Your example is flawed, as tons of retro EA games are released under their Replay franchise, and Sim Theme Park is being released on the DS within the next few months. Just because a game hasn't been re-released or sequel-ized in 15 years doesn't mean it won't be in the future"


Replay does not provide any support for the titles they release.
A Nintendo DS version of say "Theme Park" is nice for those who want to play the game again, however this is a move to another platform; and technically another license. It does not mean that support is continued for previous platforms.

Personally I like how Codemasters, Team17 and Bitmap Brothers release their games. As they not only provide a number of their old titles as Freeware/Abandonware, but they also provide them with a Windows DirectX Emulator that is fully supported.

To me that is the way forward for abandonware. If a company is going to re-release a game I feel it should be updated accordingly and released as a new game; let those who want to play the old games for nostalgia reasons do so without causing all the greif that comes with them.

Personally I don't see the money I pay being for the game itself, but rather the promise that provided I have the hardware to run the game; that it will run without issue. That's what I see me paying for given, if you ever read licenses that come with any software you're not paying for the software itself but the right to use it. If I'm paying for that right, then I want to be able to bloody use it as it was intended.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 28th Jan 2007 20:11
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Quote: "1. Do you think that abandonware should be legal? why or why not?"

I think they should be legal, if the company isn't trying to profit from a game anymore, that shouldn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to play it. I still love dozens of older games that are no longer supported by their developers or saw the bottom of the dusty bargain bin years ago. Like the older GTA games, Rockstar is releasing those for free now from their own website, that's awesome of them imo. Some distributors are just greedy and horde away their old games that they don't even sell anymore, I hate that.

Quote: "2. As game programmers, would you feel honored that people like your game enough to want to preserve it, or insulted that are distributing unlicensed copies of it?"

I'd definitely be honored by that. In fact, I'd probably open up support lines for it and offer the game for download from my website as a direct result of the public showing such a desire to see the game continue to exist.

Quote: "3. Can you think of any alternatives to preserving older titles?"

Their should be a moral law, an unspoken code amongst developers everywhere: sell it or give it. If you aren't going to profit from a game any longer, then it's time to give it away for free. Some studios do this, some (I could probably get away with saying "most") don't, but I think they should. Treat your fans with love and admiration, and they'll treat you the same way with your newer games


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 28th Jan 2007 20:20
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I personally find it downright annoying when I lose a good game that's getting on a bit. So, I travel down to Stafford, and I can't find it anywhere. Not on eBay, not on Amazon. So, unless I made an illegal backup (hehe), I'm well and truly stuffed.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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Jeku
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Posted: 28th Jan 2007 21:18
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Quote: "In fact, I'd probably open up support lines for it and offer the game for download from my website as a direct result of the public showing such a desire to see the game continue to exist."


And you're going to pay for this how? You give away your games for free and you have a support line? Hmmm--- hasn't happened once in the history of the industry (that I know of)

If I own a copyright on a game and I want to sit on it for 5-10 years without selling it, legally it's still mine and I *should* be able to stop people from illegally copying it.

Matt - So by that logic the old bands from the 70s who haven't released an album in 10 years should just give away their music for free? Puleeeze....

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David R
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Posted: 28th Jan 2007 21:25
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Quote: "hasn't happened once in the history of the industry (that I know of) "


The free EA sports football game in Korea is like this. Free and has a support line. For the game, you have to pay for enhancements, but not the core game itself. Then again, that game is a special case (since it's designed to fight piracy, and is unique in this way)


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 28th Jan 2007 22:51
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Just because something's never been done doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done . If I get to a point where I'm rich enough to have support, then it won't kill me to encorporate old titles in with the new ones on our support system, especially since we'd get, what, 500 calls a year about the older games (and that might be pushing it)? That wouldn't exactly put a major company out of business.


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Jeku
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Posted: 28th Jan 2007 23:25
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Quote: "Matt - So by that logic the old bands from the 70s who haven't released an album in 10 years should just give away their music for free? Puleeeze...."


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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 29th Jan 2007 01:53
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Quote: "Matt - So by that logic the old bands from the 70s who haven't released an album in 10 years should just give away their music for free? Puleeeze...."


but their albums are still in stores...

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Jeku
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Posted: 29th Jan 2007 03:01
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That's the way the music market works though. However, there are some bands that I can't find in the CD store that I would buy in a second. Myles and Lennie, for example.

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Jess T
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Posted: 29th Jan 2007 03:43
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In my eyes there is no such thing as abandonware unless the copyright holders (those that made and/or published the game) officially say "We no longer support, sell, or even think about this game. Here's a link to a torrent - go download it"

That's about the ONLY time I can think of anything being called abandonware. And how often has that happened?

Even games from companies that have gone under still have someone or thing the holds the copyright. The copyright doesn't just disapear because the company went bust - it gets passed on to whoever the company determines (so I beleive), or in a worse situation, whoever bought-out the company.

At any rate, there are situations where I wish certain games had become 'abandonware' since they are infact so hard to get a hold of. But it doesn't mean I should go download it.

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Van B
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Posted: 29th Jan 2007 11:00
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The thing is though, when you download a torrent, you know your not downloading something legal. The whole argument with abandonware is the websites offering this stuff for straightforward and seemingly legal download. Now if there's a site offering a download, and it gives the impression that the publisher is ok with it, then what should people do? - all they can do is assume that all is ok and download what they like.

The way I think it works, is they provide an old game for download, and the publisher can contact them and block the distribution, so any publishers that don't mind, leave the download alone. It's the publishers responsibility to protect their titles, but when they drop support, stop updating, and the only way to obtain these games is through downloading, then I think that's a situation where they'd be better off leaving it be.

As I said, the ball is in their court - we want and will get games by the most legal means possible, if they decided to charge a small amount to download their games, with the CD protection removed, even with adverts for their recent games added, then people would be willing to pay, I would be willing to pay. Until they decide to charge for software again, we can't pay for it, if they drop support for it, we shouldn't pay for it. There's plenty opportunity for publishers as already discussed, personally I think they care very little about people downloading their games from abandonware sites, and are grumbling about legalities as a knee-jerk reaction - really there should be a law covering this, like:

If the game is older than 5 years old.
If game is no longer available to buy online or in stores.
If the game is not being updated or supported.
If the publisher does not express issues with abandonware.

Then it should be legal to download. Some might find that a bit selfish? - but really consider how much money we pump into these publishers every year, they aren't paying for webspace to hold these games, they aren't paying people to support or update them, they already sold thousands of copies and made money - we already paid for these games 10-fold, they should do the decent thing and shut up about abandonware . People download old games they used to play, so it'd be a very high percentage of people who've already paid for said games, but maybe the CD didn't last 10 years or they lost it, but these things should all be considered along with the legalities. We still have rights as consumers, maybe we need more rights as gamers .

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Wiggett
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Posted: 29th Jan 2007 12:55
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underdogs provides downloads for games that you cannot get anywhere else, and they supply links to contacts with suppliers and the companies whom produced the titles themselves for most games that still sell their products. One hypothetical to think of though, wht if a game from the 80s, no longer produced or supplied by the games creators/owners, is sitting in your bedroom. You don't want to play it anymore, so you give it to your friend. Is he then recieving it illegally? I would assume not, people lend games all teh time, but lets say he lived far away, and instead of sending it to him physically, you put it in your floppy drive and sent the files across to him. Was that legal? you're still sending him the game that he cannot get anywhere else, only this time there are now two copies of the game. If you upload the file so that many of your friends can download the game, are you then liable for charges of publicly sharign the file? even if it is only really accessible by your friends through a passworded system? will anyone care?

another one, say you sold that same game in a garage sale for $2, is that illegal? what if you made copies and sold them at a garage sale for $2 is that illegal? what if your garage sale was through the internet...

Technically I would say the making copies and sellign them bit is illegal, but what makes it so different from selling the original disk anyway? you are still making a profit. Though you could say a loss as you bought that game for $80 when it came out, but then if you sold copies would it then be ok if you made less than $80 back?

where are the boundaries?

Syndicate remastered: Corporate persuasion through urban violence.
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