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Geek Culture / American spellings and pronounciations

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HowDo
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Posted: 10th Feb 2007 19:13
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taking you back to word being said and spell differently how about

business

how's that one spelt there.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 10th Feb 2007 19:30 Edited at: 10th Feb 2007 19:31
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Quote: "it's still dead if it doesn't change"

No, no it's not. Who told you this?

Quote: "it is taught to Itlian school children"

That doesn't have anything to do with native speakers.

Quote: "And by that definition Ben, latin is not dead"

No, by that definition it's not dead because Latin is one of the official languages of the Vatican City, therefore has native speakers. Besides, where did I say that Latin was dead? Don't put words into my mouth.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Feb 2007 20:26
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Quote: "My point is that they probably have different roots, hence the rules won't be the same. Besides, rules aren't always that simple, when certain sounds are preceded by certain letters, they may change.
"


Fair enough, that point being also true, although probably badly explained on my behalf, I mean English has no continued set rule, more so than other languages, where a rule is more commonly applied. And as said, English is made up of different roots.

Quote: "it's still dead if it doesn't change"


A dead language is one that is archaic, and unchanging language isn't dead as it is still used. How would a language be defined 'dead' if it stops changing, because there is still some 'life' in it if people still speak it, 'dead' is a term usually used with something that doesn't exist any more or isn't active.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 10th Feb 2007 21:03
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Quote: "But since it's German, it's not."
Considering this is how the whole thread is going, then what is your point exactly? Other countries pronounce our words differently. For example america. And we pronounce some of the words they have come up with differently. Ok, one point of the thread taken (along with spelling changes). A fair few people say Audi differently to the germans who invented the name. Think thats going along with the thread. Whats your point?

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Benjamin
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Posted: 10th Feb 2007 21:10 Edited at: 10th Feb 2007 21:38
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Quote: "Considering this is how the whole thread is going, then what is your point exactly?"

My point? I was just answering your question, dear old Dazzaq.

Quote: "And we pronounce some of the words they have come up with differently."

I think this is different, since it's a name. There's nothing wrong with pronouncing it differently, it's just that in my opinion I consider the German way correct.

Though having said that, anyone who pronounces Chopin as literally "choppin" is rather silly.

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Evil Star
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Posted: 10th Feb 2007 21:21 Edited at: 10th Feb 2007 21:21
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Quote: "No, no it's not. Who told you this?"


David R did, and yes there are many floors in my logic and latin is widely accepted by most people as dead, I take it you come under the catergory of "most pepole". And now tht I look at it ben, I agree with everything you said, part from saying that the fact that latin being taught to itlian school children was irrelevant, they were the people who most used the languge and to the extent of my knowledge they invented it, and they being taught to speak it makes it alive!
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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Feb 2007 21:50
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Quote: "linus (lie-nuss) torvalds"


Actually his name is pronounced lihniss, not lienuss. And yes, it's Lihnix, not Lienix

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Dave J
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 12:54
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Yeah, I think I remember hearing an audio clip of the creator pronouncing it correctly (basically how Jeku said).


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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 17:15
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Quote: "not all Americans talk like Texans."

And remember that not all (actually most) Texans don't speak like stereotypical Texans .

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hyrichter
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 17:30 Edited at: 11th Feb 2007 17:31
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Quote: "business

how's that one spelt there.
"

Business. But what's with spelling "spelled" as "spelt"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelt

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David R
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 17:35 Edited at: 11th Feb 2007 17:37
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Quote: "But what's with spelling "spelled" as "spelt"?"


Spelt is the correct (British) English for the past tense and the past participle of spell. But I believe it is actually also an American spelling (as in, it's in your dictionaries and not replaced with spelled). No idea where spelled comes from - there may be a difference between their correct usages, I'm not sure (?)

EDIT: And Google isn't giving the 'trivial' definition of spelt, its just giving its other meanings


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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 17:36
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Quote: "No idea where spelled comes from - there may be a difference between their correct usages, I'm not sure (?)"

Maybe "spelt" is a verb, while "spelled" is an adverb? Like "I spelt the word right", or "The word was spelled right." I'm not great with grammar though.

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hyrichter
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 17:55
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Quote: "I'm not great with grammar though."

So I see. You used "spelled" as a verb there, and I can't see how it could be used as anything BUT a verb.

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 19:36
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Quote: "So I see. You used "spelled" as a verb there, and I can't see how it could be used as anything BUT a verb."

Lol, I guess it is, but can't that be taken both ways, like it was actually spelled by someone, or it is spelled, as in a state.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 19:38
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Quote: "No idea where spelled comes from - there may be a difference between their correct usages, I'm not sure (?)"

It is indeed a strange one this, and I can't seem to find a website that gives a definitive answer. Maybe the Americans came up with it to make it like how some other verbs are conjugated, for instance call->called, jump->jumped. Who knows.

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Torrey
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 20:04
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It's nearly impossible to show comparison pronounciations of words between the two english languages because the US is so large that different areas will pronounce things differently. It's really odd when you can drive for an hour in any direction and speak with someone and they'll answer back with a different accent.

Here's some words from the list in the first post that made no sense as to why the British spell them this way:

American-British
enrollment-enrolment (seems silly that you add l's to other words, but take away one in this word)
encylopedia-enlycopaedia (possible error or too much time spent at the local pub?)
maneuver-manoeuvre (why the extra o? it's almost fancy talk for saying "man over")
draft-draught (God only knows what happened here, but we'll blame it on the Americans)

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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 21:19
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Quote: "encylopedia-enlycopaedia (possible error or too much time spent at the local pub?)
...
draft-draught (God only knows what happened here, but we'll blame it on the Americans)"


Well, you've got a typo in 'enlycopaedia' there - it should be encyclopaedia, I believe. And it would have been written with the 'æ' symbol, not seperate 'a' and 'e'. Encyclopædia.

As for draught - well, you don't write laf, do you? Apparently though it's old English from 13th Century, so it's been around a while, at least

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Dazzag
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 21:26
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Depends what exactly you mean by draught. Only time I would spell it that way is for alcohol. Wouldn't for example say "this specification is the first draught". Would be "first draft". Then again, I'm Welsh. Most of our education involves hating the English

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Evil Star
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Posted: 11th Feb 2007 21:32 Edited at: 11th Feb 2007 21:38
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Thnks again guys, I agree with one american spelling above the rest "thru" as opposed to "through", we spell it thruff

Dazzag, 'ch re 'r 'n flaen Cymraeg berson fi ve cyffyrddedig 'ma, O a gyda llaw , 'n 'n anianyddol addysg gwersau rhywsut darfod i fyny yn casáu 'r Cymraeg
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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 00:08
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Quote: "draft-draught "


Wait--- you say draught in relation to alcohol? That is very weird but interesting. I would probably be confused in an English bar if I read that.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 00:44
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Just remember... there’s no correct pronunciation in American English… That is because no one KNOWS American English… watch any American channel and you will find people alternating between pronunciations… some acceptable, others… The problem is that English is a phonetically unregulated language. Take Japanese… if you can read the kana’s and (and the word isn’t spelled with a kenji) you can pronounce it properly no matter what (well, a few exceptions).

English makes random rules that it doesn’t even follow with pronunciations, just like it makes random rules with word formation. “It is Invariably Indicated that the Incarcerated Inmate is Innocent.” Can we ATLEAST make a formal definition for the prefix “in”? Half the nation is saying “eye-rack” while the other half is saying “E-rock”.

Just wait a few more years, we'll have obfuscated our language to the point we can't even TEACH it.


Then again, American English is the collection of words from OTHER languages... and although the spelling changes, the original pronouncation lingers around.


Quote: "ghoti - this should logically be pronounced "fish"."

Gh as in Ghandi
O as in Hot
Ti as in Yeti

As the delemia over the word being "fish" or "ghati" exists... we decide to make a NEWER better pronouncation... "geweebliwebliwoo".

If you fear speaking for yourself, make use the words of others while discovering your own voice.
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indi
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 01:07
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Also note that magic in ye olde english was more phonetic back in the day as well hence the word was spelt majick

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hyrichter
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 01:19 Edited at: 12th Feb 2007 01:50
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*Ahem*
Hou tu pranownse Inglish

Something else to wonder or ponder upon.
Quote: " I'm in danger of anger when I wonder or ponder about how easily "laughter" becomes "slaughter." So, do not despair when the good food of language is full of worms, or storms of linguistic trickery blow (and how!); keep in mind that the wind and rain go away, and again you'll feast on breast of beast that's better (but close) to those whose descriptions you'll ever read (or have read). My point is this: we English speakers are rule-breakers, and have come home to an accord about how a word is said, so "plaid" and "raid" are friends (not fiends) and you can bear to hear that there's no thought of a drought, that we're far from war and from harm and we're warm, and that "worm" is the norm."


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Dave J
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 03:40
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Quote: "Wait--- you say draught in relation to alcohol? That is very weird but interesting. I would probably be confused in an English bar if I read that."


Some types of beer are labelled as 'draught', not sure in what way exactly, but I think it refers to the taste somehow.


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Wiggett
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 07:02
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yes in Australia our "draft beers" are draught beers. its pronounced the same way (draft). Also meter and metre are different things, metre is the measurement, meter is the measuring device. (ie Centimetre, gas meter.)

i like the way Australians say things


except for the streets i like their songs.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 07:36
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over 56 rules and exceptions to pronounciation and it STILL has a 15% margin of error (according to the creator). This shows how utterly pathetic American English really is, the author even makes a good point on how pathetic American English's spelling is, since you can't predict the spelling of a word from its pronounciation.

Hmm... I must really hate the language I speak.

Its not who you are or what you've done... its WHY you did it and how far you are willing to go.
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Dazzag
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 08:32
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Ummm, yeah, anyways, the point about America being so big that different words sound different in different places still applies in the UK. Don't think we all say things the same. May be a small place but we still pack in more than 60 million people or so. You can a couple of miles up the road and someone will talk almost completely differently. Especially in the north. Where your mother, sister, and aunt add up to less than three ladies. Heh. Couldn't resist. On with the shandy jokes please!!!

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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 13:05
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If it's from a keg or cask it's draught beer. If it's from a can or bottle it's not.
We do get draught beer in a can, but thats just a can of beer with a 'widget' in it - tastes nothing like draught beer.


The word "Gullible" cannot be found in any English Dictionary.
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 13:13
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This thread has gone from the discussion of the continental differences of pronounciation and spelling of the English language, to the discussion of fermented vegetable drinks...hmmmm

Anyway thanks again and I hope the draft draught commotion is solved soon
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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 13:32
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You would think it would be easy for a US person detect an English-speaking Canadian. Not easy at all. I can only detect one if he says the word "about".
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 14:43
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Quote: "I can only detect one if he says the word "about"."


Don't even think about starting that discussion! Please, we do not need "aboot" jokes
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Tinkergirl
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 14:53
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It's not just the Canadians though - the Scottish say aboot too!

"There's a moose, loose, aboot this hoose!"

We had a Canadian over to visit over Christmas and New Year, and had great fun playing Scrabble. Three English, a Scot and a Canadian trying to agree on spelling.

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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 15:25
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Incidentally, while Americans have intentionally changed spelling of English words, the main differences between the way Americans and Brits pronounce words has more likely resulted from changes in pronunciation evolving in the UK over the last 3 to 4 centuries, not changes that Americans have made. American pronunciation is much closer to the way English sounded in 17th century UK than is current UK pronunciation. This happens with most colonial empires during the period. Colonists tend to preciously guard pronunciation, while in the more secure mother country pronunciation evolves much more rapidly.
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Dazzag
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 16:43
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What about "water"? Always a good one. But yeah, we can't normally tell the difference between Canadians and Americans when it comes to accents. Unless they are like really french.

And it's always a good time to talk about alcohol! Whoop etc.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Dazzag
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 16:47 Edited at: 12th Feb 2007 16:48
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Quote: "American pronunciation is much closer to the way English sounded in 17th century UK than is current UK pronunciation"
You are forgetting the effect that TV has had on us in the UK. I mean the US is by far the biggest supplier of English speaking TV that we get. It's a mistake to think we get nothing but British TV on like 3 channels. When I lived in the UK it was hundreds of channels, and we simply cannot create enough content in this country. So we buy all yours (and Australian stuff - sometimes Canadian, but you know what it's like.... ). Which has a massive effect on what and how we say things. Dude.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 17:37
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Quote: "What about "water"? Always a good one. But yeah, we can't normally tell the difference between Canadians and Americans when it comes to accents."


Well most people in England now just pronounce 'water' as 'wa'er' or 'butter' being 'bu'er' and so on, because we're lazy b*****ds that can't be bothered to pronounce 't' in the middle of a word. About the Canadians, it is true, our year 8 English teacher was Canadian, I thought he was a yank until he said he was Canadian (And some idiot asked him where 'Canadia is' as opposed to 'Canada')

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Evil Star
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 18:12 Edited at: 12th Feb 2007 20:11
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Quote: "Well most people in England now just pronounce 'water' as 'wa'er' or 'butter' being 'bu'er' and so on"


Most? some is more like it, I know very few people who speak like that, I try to avoid talking to them becuse it's rather obvious that they have an IQ below six (and thats a poor IQ for a glass of water)

BTW I'm from Colchester
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Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 18:17
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Quote: "I try to avoid talking to them becuse it's rather obvious that they have an IQ below six (and thats a poor IQ for a glass of water)
"

I kind of agree, you'll find that in the areas where general intelligence is very low (chav areas), people will speak like this, however this doesn't apply to everyone.

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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 19:18
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Although I wasn't speaking literally, chav's aren't the only ones the avoid the 't', I've seen a lot of intelligent people miss the 't' as well and even say 'innit'. I'm sure there are non-chav dialects that miss the 't', I mean there are very few of us that actually speak with a standard English accent and dialect, so you're bound to find people with an IQ higher than 6 missing the 'Ts' from butter, I mean I do sometimes.

Besides, Shakespeare missed out letters all of the time in his work and people call him a genius, pssh some genius that didn't realise 'over' has a 'v' in it. (Yes I know, it's completely different, I just wanted to jab at Shakespeare)

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Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 20:02
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Quote: "Although I wasn't speaking literally, chav's aren't the only ones the avoid the 't', I've seen a lot of intelligent people miss the 't' as well and even say 'innit'."

Indeed, this is the case where it doesn't apply to everyone.

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Evil Star
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 20:17 Edited at: 12th Feb 2007 20:18
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Quote: "Besides, Shakespeare missed out letters all of the time in his work and people call him a genius"


This was before the time of Samuel Johnson, the man who wrote the dictionary and standardised English spelling, so Shakespeare had an excuse, they were times when things like
"I have burrned downe the wytches howse" or "I lyke not this quil" were acceptable...CURSE YOU SAMUEL JOHNSON! You inadvertently created one of the most hated parts of all childrens education, the spelling test!
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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 21:23
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Quote: "I can only detect one if he says the word "about"."


That reminds me of when I used to do tech support for a large computer laptop company, and once in a while I'd get a guy saying "You're Canadian aren't you?" It floored me everytime. Funny thing is, we weren't allowed to say we were Canadian, so I just said "I live close to the border". Sure enough, that made it make sense to them usually

But I haven't met one person here who says "aboot"--- perhaps that's just the Newfie way (Newfoundlanders have their own accent that's nothing like the mainstream Canadian accent).

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Dazzag
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 22:06
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So no-one says "Wadder" then for Water?...

As for innit, what about like at the end of every sentence? Eh, mate? Practically had to concentrate for years to stop myself saying those things. And I'm a bloody genius

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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 23:31
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Interestingly most linguists consider Latin to be a dead language. Well, I at least remember two of them . But seriously, in the mid 90s we were taught (in linguistics) that Latin is a dead language; and I would still agree with it, because I doubt there are any native speakers.

And for those who are interested:
A very short but quite good introduction to linguistics

An interesting article on native speakers and extinct languages

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Feb 2007 23:35
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Quote: "This was before the time of Samuel Johnson, the man who wrote the dictionary and standardised English spelling, so Shakespeare had an excuse, they were times when things like"


AHEM!

Quote: "(Yes I know, it's completely different, I just wanted to jab at Shakespeare)
"


Yes I know all about the Samuel Johnson dictionary, William Caxton's printing press and standardisation, hence Chaucer had some funky ways of writing too and most of the dudes before standardisation. I think you missed me trying to be facetious, just think whenever I make a comment that is stupid, I don't mean it, generally my language will change (use of taboo or taking the p***) or I will state it.

Dazzag, 'innit' at the end of every sentence would drive me to stabbing out my ear drums with a pencil, so er yeah innit bruv.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 13:35
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Bruv? Don't be such a chav... innit... like.... erm...

You know you are getting older though when you no longer understand what the youngsters are saying. And when you start calling them youngsters... and when you start writing things like this.... Also the class line of "He looks much too young to smoke! Surely someone should tell his parents!" crops up too. Next step is to actually tell his parents. This is from someone who used to do the usual smokey things when a kid. F**k....

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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 13:58
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UK folks might hear the Canadian "about" as "aboot", but Americans hear it as "a boat". Some Canadian gents have made it to the highest level of news/commentary in the US, and that is the one and only word by which I can detect that they are Canadian.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 15:00 Edited at: 13th Feb 2007 15:02
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Quote: ""He looks much too young to smoke! Surely someone should tell his parents!""


I think I've said something like that one, I'm not old, the dude was 7/8 years old, mind you we had accidentally picked a Chav campsite to go on holiday to, so you probably would expect that.

Quote: "and that is the one and only word by which I can detect that they are Canadian."


What about the Canadian stereotype I see on American shows? I've met about 3 Canadians in my life, didn't seem like an accurate image to me:

"So, you're an American Eh??"

Did The Buddha have a Zen micro?
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Jeku
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Posted: 13th Feb 2007 18:40
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Hmmm--- I'd like to meet a Canadian who says "aboat" or "aboot". Still don't know where that comes from

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Jeff Miller
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Location: New Jersey, USA
Posted: 13th Feb 2007 21:03
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It's very suttle, Jeku, and you simply may not hear it that way. The ace news guys I referred to were Robert MacNeil and the late Peter Jennings, and -especially with MacNeil who is a language expert - I only started detecting it in "about" after watching two or three of his shows. That's when I looked up where he was from. With Jennings it was a bit more pronounced as I recall. Basically, my point is that there is extremely little difference in pronunciation between English-speaking Canada and northern US that I can detect, yet it is so easy to detect regional differences in pronunciation WITHIN the US.

Also, when it comes to Canadian actors I can't discern any difference. Cases in point would include the late Raymond Massey and the late John Vernon. Massey's voice, I believe, is what you hear when the President Lincoln automaton is "speaking" in the Hall of Presidents at Disney World.
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