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Geek Culture / Running Games in a Browser?

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Jeku
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 06:39 Edited at: 14th Feb 2007 06:54
For some time I've been looking for an affordable way to have my small, 2D games run from a browser. I have seen two options (of which, unfortunately, I can't remember their names), but they both charge hundreds per title, or thousands for an open license. This isn't a choice for an indie dev.

Basically if I write a small app, I'd like a way to wrap it in a tool that is, for lack of a better description, a plug-in for browsers, allowing you to play the game in the window much like Flash. And again, I've seen a solution available by two different companies (one of them even advertised in a competition from this site), but their prices were rather hefty.

If anyone knows of an open solution, or a cheaper way to do this--- i.e. I don't mind paying something for this, then please let me know. I don't even know what to type into Google to do a search

Thanks

EDIT:

I found one of them: http://www.osakit.com/buy.html -- with a full price of $129.99 for an unlimited number of games on one site, I guess it's not too bad--- but still, kinda iffy for me.

Sunflash
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 09:01
There was a DBPro project like this before, allowing you to run games within the browser. It was almost finished too, but the creater left on a business trip or something, and was never heard from again, but he left a demo online for people to try out, it's pretty sweet, but unusable becasue it is unfinished.

But yeah, I've been searching for exactly the same thing for a long time now!

Mountain Dew, happyness in a bottle.
spooky
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 11:47
If I remember rightly, these browser plugins for exe's basically work by downloading the exe to clients pc and running it in the browser as an activex or other type of plugin.

The danger with DBPro exes is that you can run dangerous system commands like deleting files, messing about in the registry, etc. With Flash that is not possible.

Just not sure I'd trust running and DBPro games in a browser.

Boo!
Jess T
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 13:12
Jeku,

It's an attractive possibility, but to be honest, who would use it?
It's like Spooky says, downloading and running an exe within a browser isn't safe, and people don't like safe.
If, however, they download and run the exe themselves, they feel safer (at least, I would).

But either way, it requires the user to download the entire app in the first place, so what difference is running it in a browser going to make?

Oh, and on the possitive site, I beleive that the demo for that DBP-in-browser thing was in one of the previous News Letters.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 16:42
Quote: "Just not sure I'd trust running and DBPro games in a browser.
"
Yeah, but thats assuming the people who play the games either give a monkeys or actual know what they are running and how it can effect your PC. Small amount. Plus if someone here put up a DBP game to download I'm pretty sure most people would try it. And you don't know what they could have done (especially if no code given).

A lot of normal people would probably feel safer playing inside a browser I reckon. How do they know the differences between DBP and Flash? Given the choice between "run this exe once downloaded" and your browser doing everything for you then yes, I think most people would go with the browser.

People give quite a bit of trust a lot of the time at the end of the day.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Kentaree
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 17:29
Here's the answer nobody wants: Java.

Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 17:33
Followed by a wise word: sucks.



Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 17:40
it would be good to have an in-browser DBPro compiler.
or any basic compiler really.
it would be grear to be able to make web apps in BASIC

Kentaree
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 17:47
@Ben: indeed. In browsers anyway

Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 17:50 Edited at: 14th Feb 2007 17:51
Quote: "it would be good to have an in-browser DBPro compiler."

An interpreter would be best, as it could emulate a file system (thus averting any potential disasters).

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Erick G
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 17:57
have a look at igLoader

http://www.igloader.com/
Jeku
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 18:39
Quote: "It's like Spooky says, downloading and running an exe within a browser isn't safe, and people don't like safe."


But what's the difference between that and running the game exe? Maybe you and I would feel safer, but most people not (as Jess said).

Quote: "have a look at igLoader"


Ahh yes, that was the other site. But did you see the prices? Ridiculous!

Quote: "Here's the answer nobody wants: Java."


Um, how would that help? Unless there's a Java wrapper. But there must be an open source way to run almost any EXE from the browser. I mean, the osakit one shows examples of full-fledged 3D Blitz games running, and even little apps. I guess I could make my own, but I wouldn't have a clue :S

spooky
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 19:42
The difference is, that once you have installed the plugin, then, like flash, the thing would run automatically just by browsing to the web page. At least with a downloadable exe, you have to forcibly go through a few motions.

Imagine innocently clicking a link in google and going to a website with a dodgy game that ran immediately in the browser and started messing with your system.

Maybe if the plugin did not start automatically but you had to at least click a confirm button, then maybe it would be alright, but I think it still all sounds too dangerous.

Imagine a rogue game that whilst playing it was also looping thorugh all the files on your hard disk getting email addresses, user names, passwords, etc, and then uploaded them to a website somewhere. A lot of people, like me, dont bother with an outgoing firewall and so would not know this was happening.

Am I just being paranoid or what!

Boo!
Sunflash
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 20:39
Lol, you don't need a game to do that, if you have ActiveX enabled, it can do it even without your knowledge. Have fun on Myspace, becasue pretty soon it will be full of this

Mountain Dew, happyness in a bottle.
Silvester
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Posted: 14th Feb 2007 21:36
Igloader just made a free lisence,as soon as your trial runs out youll go to free.It has a few limitations though...

Here the email that told me it was:



Quote: "igLoader V3.0 is released, packed with great new features, more flexible licensing and Vista Protected Mode support.

What's new?

* Improved Sandbox - With file path virtualization.
* Vista compatibility - Including IE7 Protected Mode.
* JavaScript > igLoader > App > igLoader > JavaScript Scripting (more below).
* In-game ad capabilities.
* Improved branding tools - brand game assets post-production.
* Support for 3rd party DRM wrappers.
* More flexible plugin version control.
* Free and Premium Licenses.

Kick-ass features:


Security and compatibility: The only commercially available product that sandboxes the web-application protecting the client machine from malicious code execution and file access. Compatible with Netscape, Mozilla, Firefox, Opera, IE 5+, SeaMonkey, IE7 (including protected mode) and runs on Win95/98/2000/XP/Vista.


Scripting : Web2.0, we've arrived! Run JavaScript functions on your web page directly from your application. Allows for complex control and truly dynamic web page content that responds to your applications instruction. Example, update a web based game high-score table in real-time as the player is scoring the points – post the scores via Ajax so the player gets live feedback on their progress. There are a number of native functions that provide a two-way communication between igLoader and the webpage. These functions have been provided to enable greater control over plugin functionality and a more seamless client experience.


In-Game Ads (pre/mid/post roll): Utilize the scripting functionality to display adverts, pre/post game and between levels!


Post-Production Branding: Take some software, tag the assets and have them re-branded at load-time. Any file or application asset that is exposed to igLoader can be swapped out for a branded version at load-time. For example, a game may need to have custom graphics based on the sales or distribution channel. Normally a game would be recompiled for each channel, with the branding functions you can take the existing package and re-brand images, music, sound effects and even 3d models and textures.


DRM support: As a pre-cursor to our session based play API, due for release shortly, igLoader supports 3rd Party DRM wrappers. Now your web games can have trial limitations that can be unlocked in the normal manner.


Free licenses: Yes, it is now possible to use igLoader in your own personal or commercial products for free. For details on license restrictions and functionality grab a copy of the SDK.

Grab a copy of the SDK today and set your software free : http://www.igloader.com/trial_account.php

igLoader - Delivering over 1 million game plays per month"


The limits are this:

Quote: "• Hosting Locked to a single domain
• Loading screen fixed with advertising
• Branding Streams disabled
• Archive Streams disabled – post launch streaming
• Patch Streams disabled
• Scripting Disabled
• Internal Messaging Disabled"


So its quite OK.

-Prince Of Darkness
Jeku
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Posted: 15th Feb 2007 04:12
Wow, thanks for letting me know that. I would still prefer to be able to do my own branding, but it's still better than nothing

Jess T
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Posted: 15th Feb 2007 10:49
The main issues I have with safety are two fold.
First, I scan everything I download to be run before running it (unless it's from a trusted source like MS updates, or Firefox, etc).

Second, I have a firewall which is set to ask me for permission every time anything wants to access the net (except for 'always accepted' things I've set like Firefox, etc). So, the second a game tries accessing the net (which, surprisingly ALOT do, even ones you wouldn't think needed to), I block it, but if it's run within the browser, it already has an open (allowed) connection to the net which I cannot block without blocking my browsers connection.
And that, to me, is VERY unsafe.

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xtom
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Posted: 15th Feb 2007 13:37
It may be unsafe, but I think a lot of people like playing games instantly through their browser nowadays rather than downloading files and doing installs etc. Especially for simple games. At the end of the day we want our games to be as easily accessible to as many people as possible. I'd love to see some DBPro games running in a browser.

Jeku
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Posted: 15th Feb 2007 21:53
Quote: "First, I scan everything I download to be run before running it (unless it's from a trusted source like MS updates, or Firefox, etc)."


A scan will do nothing if a person sticks a few delete commands in a regular DBP app

Seriously though, I will eventually place my games on my site, and obviously if people would rather download the game and run it (for whatever reason), then they don't have to install the plug-in. You have to install it in the first place, so I can't see what the big deal is.

Benjamin
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Posted: 15th Feb 2007 21:55 Edited at: 15th Feb 2007 21:55
What's the advantage of running it through the web browser anyway? The game still has to be downloaded.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 15th Feb 2007 23:53
not to mention the browser is an exe, and Im assuming the game is an exe, how would the one execute inside the other? That goes against current computing standards of application domain boundaries. there are things meant to execute in a browser (ie flash, java, etc) but a standard exe? and a bloated dbp exe at that? yikes.

Then theres all of the different browsers...

maybe I misunderstand what Jeku is asking

Michael Moore needs this film:Aaron Russo's America: Freedom To Fascism
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Raven
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Posted: 16th Feb 2007 02:17
Why not get a host capable of Microsoft .NET?
That way you can then program using C# and XNA Framework / Managed DirectX 1.0/2.0, the added bonus is the fail-safes for scripting would be built-in plus being a language and API that you're already used to and/or working with.

Failing that, Java is a very viable option.
I've personally found it to be quite quick, unless you work on full-title complexity. (i.e. something like Doom3 in Java would be insane to think of complexity wise, but Java could physically handle the graphics without problem; just the physics and scripting system the language would die on.)

Jeku
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Posted: 16th Feb 2007 04:27 Edited at: 16th Feb 2007 04:28
Quote: "What's the advantage of running it through the web browser anyway? The game still has to be downloaded."


Because to most people, it would be nice to play the game online before downloading. The developer can strip out themes, art packs, levels etc. and have a barebones game. If you go to Popcap Games's websites you can play all of their games online before downloading the trial or buying the full versions.

Quote: "not to mention the browser is an exe, and Im assuming the game is an exe, how would the one execute inside the other? That goes against current computing standards of application domain boundaries. there are things meant to execute in a browser (ie flash, java, etc) but a standard exe? and a bloated dbp exe at that? yikes."


It doesn't matter. Like I said, there are 2 products out there that already do this for executables. Whether it's an exe or not is not important--- after all a java app online is an executable too (without a .exe extension).

And who said anything about DBP? I'm talking about any kind of executable from as small as 15k up to--- well, Doom 3 if the user is that insane.

Quote: "Failing that, Java is a very viable option. "


Argh--- that would involve me rewriting my games. I'm looking for a wrapper. Is it that hard to understand

Quote: "Why not get a host capable of Microsoft .NET?
That way you can then program using C# and XNA Framework / Managed DirectX 1.0/2.0, the added bonus is the fail-safes for scripting would be built-in plus being a language and API that you're already used to and/or working with."


Please explain what you are talking about. How is C# and XNA going to help me with my problem?

Benjamin
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Posted: 16th Feb 2007 04:55
Quote: "Because to most people, it would be nice to play the game online before downloading. The developer can strip out themes, art packs, levels etc. and have a barebones game."

Makes sense I guess.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Jess T
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Posted: 16th Feb 2007 08:31
Still, they have to download it to play it.
There's no such thing as 'playing online' except for games that actually require the internet to play the game (which, I assume, yours don't).

CR, to get a game to run in a browser is actually rather trivial, all you need to do is direct the rendering to the window of the browser (I assume ActiveX can do this, if not normal Win32 programming certainly can).

A prime example of this is the Screen-saver code that me and Baggers came up with a long while back for DBP. You call certain DLLs and it shows the standard 'preview' in the preview window. Then, if the app is run with the right command-line params, it will run full-screen. Simple, yet VERY effective.

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Pricey
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Posted: 16th Feb 2007 21:49
what i meant would it would be fantastic to be able to program interactive web content in BASIC.

its there anything that can do this?

Kaurotu
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Posted: 16th Feb 2007 22:48
So is Java the way games like Runescape implement their games into the web browser?


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Silvester
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Posted: 16th Feb 2007 23:29
RuneScape is Java only...

And your best bet on getting a .exe running is IG loader,as it has a free lisence.unless you want to spend ages on making your own wrapper.

-Prince Of Darkness
VR2
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Posted: 17th Feb 2007 02:24
I just checked popcap - they seem to be downloadable games, not run in the browser?

The only browser games I've ever heard of have been written, without exception, in DHTML (pure browser code - Lemmings et al), Flash (AX Plugin), Shockwave (Director) (AXPlugin), Java (VM), .NET control (VM), Wild Tangent (AX Plugin) or igLoader (AX Plugin) or Custom AX Control.

The question then becomes "which vendor would the end user most likely willingly install from?". IMHO the last 3 would be last in the list. Very last!

However, if you are not bothered by the user being bothered (if you see what I mean) then I would have thought that writng your own AX component (in VB6 for instance) would be very do-able. The hardest part would be convincing the user to install it! Assuming that it is not a problem for you (which it sounds like it isn't) then said AX control could be embedded in a page and when activated could do something like:

1) Download your exe from your site to the clients HDD.
2) Execute a run command on it.

Bingo! If the user has installed your plug in with admin privileges (how else do you install anything these days) then other than the expected Firewall notification when your code tries to access the Internet, then the user will be none the wiser - your game will download and run whenever they access said page on your site.

That's the theory anyway and I guess is basically what IG Loader does (but renders the exe to the browser window as already suggested?). At least this way would be relatively easy and free. Like I said, the biggest stumblig block would appear to be getting the user to insall said "trojan" in the first place: It may need to be signed (default Intenet security under SP2 says that downloading unsigned AX Controls is DISABLED), but at least SIGNED controls are still "prompted".

Perhaps you could ask users to add your site to their trusted list (if they wish to have the convienience of playing your game without downloading it, at least without KNOWING that they've downloaded it).

In other words. Why bother? Why not just make a cut down version and offer it for download,then they can do with it what they will

As you said yourself, web games tend to be small, simple, usually 2D games so why do you need DBPro for that? If you want to write games for the web, learn Java I think.

Not to mention that ANY Win32 exe wrapper would not get your game running on a Mac or Linux etc, where as Java, Flash & Director all do.
Jeku
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Posted: 17th Feb 2007 03:20
Quote: "Still, they have to download it to play it.
There's no such thing as 'playing online' except for games that actually require the internet to play the game (which, I assume, yours don't)."


I understand that, but you'll find the majority of customers would feel safer playing a game in a window. Then they don't have to have icons added etc. But yes, technically the game is downloaded, but that goes along with Flash too

Quote: "I just checked popcap - they seem to be downloadable games, not run in the browser?"


You can play all of their games in a browser window too, and they have their own proprietary plug-in for that.

Quote: "In other words. Why bother? Why not just make a cut down version and offer it for download,then they can do with it what they will"


Because there's something nice about offering games to play in a browser. When I visit casual gaming sites, I *only* play the ones that run inside a browser. There's no way I'm going to download all the games with their installers, shortcuts, icons etc. just to try out the games. I'll play them first and if I like it I'll download and/or buy it.

Quote: "As you said yourself, web games tend to be small, simple, usually 2D games so why do you need DBPro for that? If you want to write games for the web, learn Java I think."


Okay, for the last time: I didn't say anything about DBP, and these games are *already written* in various languages, so I'm not going to waste my time porting them to Java or Flash. The whole point is to get the executable running in the browser, and the user doesn't know/care if it's Flash, Java, or whatever.

Jess T
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Posted: 17th Feb 2007 05:04
Short of forking out the money for one of the already mentioned wrappers, you're going to have to write your own it looks like.

As I said, it's quite trivial win32 programming to direct rendering to a certain window.

A-ha! Here's the screensaver code that me and Blanky wrote (not baggers )
It shows how easy it is to set where the rendering goes to

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VR2
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Posted: 20th Feb 2007 00:39
Quote: " technically the game is downloaded, but that goes along with Flash too "


Well, actually Flash streams as it downloads (ie it starts executing when "frame1" has downloaded). I have to say though that most/all examples I've seen just use this feature to feed a "progress bar". Oh well


Quote: "You can play all of their games in a browser window too, and they have their own proprietary plug-in for that."


So when they say "Download now" they mean....download another program that will enable you to play ALL games on this site from now on, within your browser?

And there's the rub, having never downloaded "Popcap plugin" I wouldn't want to (I'd assume it was malware, adware or worse).

This is the thing about Flash - its a plugin, just like the rest but everyone's already got it, or have at least heard of it and may well trust adobe enough to install it.

At the end of the day though, it looks like Jess is right on, either you cough up for someone elses Plugin efforts, and cross your fingers that folks will trust it enough to install it, or simply make your own, still with the trust problem but at least if users don't install it/use it, you haven't wasted your money.

Plus you might learn something writing the plugin?
Antidote
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Posted: 20th Feb 2007 01:04
Quote: "
Failing that, Java is a very viable option.
I've personally found it to be quite quick, unless you work on full-title complexity. (i.e. something like Doom3 in Java would be insane to think of complexity wise, but Java could physically handle the graphics without problem; just the physics and scripting system the language would die on.)
"


NO, NO, NOOOOOO!!!! Java = BADBADBADBADBAD! I'm talking from experience. It's great for businesses that need quick apps, it's great for runescape because they needed something that runs in a browser, but in all honesty it's bloated and subsequently slow.


Great Knight
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Posted: 20th Feb 2007 03:44 Edited at: 20th Feb 2007 03:55
I really don't think you are going to get the executables running in the browsers, unless you make something that runs it.


But I got you some links. Hope these help.

There is microsofts Click Once technology.
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vbasic/ms789088.aspx



You could probably make up a java application with a exe and launch it via webstart.

Take a look at Java Web Start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Web_Start

Examples That use Web Start(To show what it looks like when launches)
http://bytonic.de/html/jake2_webstart.html
http://www.javagaming.org/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=5860b25b5aad5cd82eb75a3942a1349e&topic=15538.0

Jeku
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Posted: 20th Feb 2007 05:56
Quote: "Well, actually Flash streams as it downloads (ie it starts executing when "frame1" has downloaded)."


But it still downloads it to your cache. Visit your cache one day and you will find the Flash videos there.

Thanks for the other info, guys

dark coder
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Posted: 20th Feb 2007 09:46
I agree that it's more convenient to play games in the browser, and it would be nice to click on a demo for some game and be able to play it then and there without the haslte of installers, however security would be the main issue as stated above, as anyone could just write some malicious code that rapes your PC, I feel safer running downloaded programs as I have knowledge of it being downloaded and it's my choise to run it, I don't want to goto some site and have 4 ads run as EXEs running all kinds of code that will nodoubt mess up my PC.

There are also other issues, such as download speed, as currently the average download speed from either the client PC or the host server will give you could be from 100-200 KB/s which if your game has alot of media, or the EXE was very large(DBP) then you loose the purpose of having it run in a browser, as it then becomes less convinien,t and you get added annoyances such as the GUi of the browser being in the way and such, but there is allways flash so people should just use that if they wish to have small games that people can play on the fly.

VR2
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Posted: 20th Feb 2007 12:31
Quote: "But it still downloads it to your cache. Visit your cache one day and you will find the Flash videos there."


Sure but my point was just that it doesn't have to wait until its downloaded - as soon as it has content enough for "Frame1" it will begin to execute. As I said tho - most developers only use this feature to drive a progress bar but in theory it can mean that a game could start executing before all assets are loaded (like maybe present the menus etc while the content loads in the background).
Raven
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Posted: 20th Feb 2007 16:22
Quote: "Please explain what you are talking about. How is C# and XNA going to help me with my problem?"


Well I'm not sure what you're using to develop you're games but right now I'd see C# with XNA Framework as the best option as this makes it multiplatform.
(any platform supporting .NET Framework 2.0, and DirectX9/10)

As such this would mean you could make a single source, that would be capable of running on Windows 2000, XP, Vista and 360. Only the 360 would even need recompiling in order for it to run; because of slightly different headers.

Most online games are only a few megabyte, which the majority of gamers can download and run in at most 5minutes.

With a Microsoft .NET Host, then you can make a C# script that is built-in to the executable that you're website can access; set the download so it will download the runtime and components to a temporary location.. the added bonus of .NET is this location can be made secure to prevent tampering with.

You could code in to the executable to check for the run-time request, so say you're running it from the browser it would be the users' browser that requests the application run; this will be in the Main() Arguements input which can be easily checked.

You can then simply change the boot sequence so that rather than creating a new Window to use the one already active (i.e. browser window/tab) and limit it to a specific area of that browser this is fairly easily done with a C# rather than HTML page, the permission can be set so the page is created on the users computer rather than by the server using their .NET Cache; this means that you can refresh the area without any callbacks to the server itself this means that you only get the browser overhead (IE7 only uses about 5% CPU)

You also have built-in script protection with C# to prevent people from trying to create malicious script. Plus DirectX and Managed DirectX have a "Download-on-Demand" system, which can be used to download and cache game resources AS needed rather than everything at once. On decent end user connections (say 2Mbit) then you're looking at 1x DVD performance on data transfering. Not great for large games, but for games around 128MB is more than enough.
Just think about what lots of Live! developers have been able to do with 56MB they have available to develop with.

This said, I did mention there's always Java. Either to develop with; or to create a content runtime system. I mean Java is capable of accessing C-Lib as it would it's own libraries; to an extent. Personally I'd choose C#, but that's just me.

Currently sorting out a Microsoft server to run from home, I'm just waiting for Microsoft to get back to me about details on the Server edition and costs of Vista.

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