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FPSC Classic Models and Media / Artist for Hire: Preliminary Projections

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KeithC
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Posted: 4th Mar 2009 22:18
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Hello there Community.

As some of you may have seen, I will be starting up a new sticky thread here in the M&M Board. It will be, in effect, a place to find a quality artist for all your custom content needs.

The list will start out small with a few "handpicked" artists, who agree to be posted. The criteria will be specific, in order to be listed (such as having a definite "home-base" for your work, as well as solid contact info. Listing your rates is not necessary, in fact I wouldn't advise it.

Over the next few days, I will be putting together a "template" that artists will need to adhere to...in order to be considered. There is a thread already discussing this here:

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=146075&b=21

I'm looking for additional input from artists, as well as the community. It will be an "invite-only" type of thing for now (such as the BOTB is); and will start out with a small group.

I have been given the "go-ahead" to do this from Lee and Rick, providing the understanding that TGC in NO WAY endorses or supports any problems arising from transactions sent or received between artist and customer. Any problems should be addressed to the specific artist (or client) involved via e-mail....and not on these Forums.

I'm hoping to have something up and running soon; along with a general consolidation of many of the stickies on the FPSC Boards.

-Keith

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Woolfman
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Posted: 5th Mar 2009 01:25
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So would there be a way to rate the way the transaction was handled? Because that would kind of give a heads up to know which people to deal with.
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KeithC
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Posted: 5th Mar 2009 01:39
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Rating is tricky. I've seen it work the wrong way on the Turbosquid site; where the competition would buy something just to give it a negative rating.

There may be a way to work something into the system though. For now, there more than likely wouldn't be a rating system though.

But if anyone has any ideas as to how to implement something like that, without having the scenario I described above occur, let me know.

-Keith

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Woolfman
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Posted: 5th Mar 2009 01:48
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Well your not really rating the item received. Because your contracting that person to make it for you.

What I'm talking about is more the way thing were handled. Like the person was easy to deal with, fast worker, responds promptly. That type of thing.
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KeithC
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Posted: 5th Mar 2009 02:16 Edited at: 5th Mar 2009 02:16
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Quote: "Well your not really rating the item received. Because your contracting that person to make it for you."

Whether you're rating an item or the artist, a poor rating will still have a bad effect overall.

The rating system you are describing isn't bad; but it would take constant input from me, after getting feedback from both the artist and the client (from the artists point of view, there could be clients who do not want to pay for the agreed upon work...only to be branded "poor" overall by the client).

Perhaps the happy medium would be to allow the input of small "testimonials".

Either way; it wouldn't be in the initial build, as it would take time for work to be done, and client reviews to be input.

Again; this is just going to be a basic listing of artists available for hire...versus a regular service provided by me.

-Keith

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SamHH
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Posted: 5th Mar 2009 15:05
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I think a testimonials system would be great, scammers and unpleasant people could weeded out rather quickly.


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The Next
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Posted: 5th Mar 2009 16:43
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This is a good idea i think

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Seth Black
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Posted: 5th Mar 2009 17:08
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Quote: "I think a testimonials system would be great, scammers and unpleasant people could weeded out rather quickly."


...I very much agree.

It's totally understandable that TGC would in no way endorse, or be responsible for any private agreements made, and that any and all activities would be at your own risk.

It would be most helpful to utilize a standardized rating system, to publicly depict who is a good risk, and who is not...


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KeithC
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Posted: 5th Mar 2009 18:14
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Who would do the rating? Again, if it plays out like does on Turbosquid (I've even had someone give me a rating of 1 star...when all the other ratings are high), a competitor could pose as a customer...order something cheap, and give a poor rating in order to erode the artist's reputation.

So what's a good system to circumvent this? Also consider that having the thread's author constantly keep the ratings updated isn't an option; as it would involve me speaking to both parties (of multiple transactions) and potentially getting drawn into some sort of legal debate. Neither I, nor any other Mod has that kind of free time to give away.

But if you can come up with a system that can rate an artist, without subjecting myself to the above scenario...I'd like to hear about it.

-Keith

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henry ham
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Posted: 5th Mar 2009 18:43
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i think the testimonials system + a good portfolio would work well .

everyone has a different idea of a quality model,whats bad to me or you may be a great model to someone else & vice versa.

but if someone reads a few good testimonials & can look over screenies of models they can make an informed choice.

cheers henry

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rolfy
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Posted: 5th Mar 2009 23:12 Edited at: 5th Mar 2009 23:28
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Quote: "Whether you're rating an item or the artist, a poor rating will still have a bad effect overall."

Already been played out here on these forums, it only takes one person to bad mouth someone and all hell breaks loose, it snowballs out of all proportion very quickly. This invariably has nothing to do with someones abilities or their quality of work and service, but more with a clash of personalities.
It would be a good idea to have a list of folks who are willing to take on freelance work, but I dont see why it has to be monitored or rated, the problem is you take on some responsibilty for the transactions that take place if they do go wrong because it looks like the authors are endorsed on these forums. Its an impossible task as jealousy, greed and downright meanness is bound to occur, not knocking everyone round here, most are fine, but it only takes one to start it all.
A list would be good ,but with testimonials I dont see it, simply for the reason that its easy to 'scam' good ones using your friends as it is for bad ones from folks who want to put you down.
I think a link to a portfolio thread would be enough to let folks know if you have what it takes. Also your reputation on these forums says much about you too, if you haven't released any material whatever before then you should not be on the list, I dont think Errant, Bond or Jon require any kind of testimonials simply because they have been around long enough and everyone knows they produce quality work and do so in a professional manner.
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xplosys
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Posted: 5th Mar 2009 23:58
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It's just a forum. FPSC is just a fun pastime for me. I'll never make any money from it, nor do I care to. Whether or not TGC provides a list of vendors, rates and handles the transactions, takes a cut, whatever... really doesn't effect me at all. I'm not trying to put down the idea or those who want to see it work. I'm just a little confused with TGC's decision to go ahead.

If you went to a paint store and they provided you with a list of painters you could call, would they be at all responsible if you were ripped off? Would you not give the paint store hell for recommending them? If they said... "Hey, we're not responsible for the work, we just gave you the list.", would you understand?

How about if your car was wrecked? The insurance company gave you a list of repair shops you could use and the one you picked really does a crappy job.

Have you ever heard of a company - anywhere - that would give you a list of vendors and say "We're not responsible for the work they do."? Why would any business give you such a list. Don't they know that it's going to come back on them?

Saying "we're not responsible" don't make it so.

Best.

fpsFREE - Contact Me
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KeithC
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Posted: 6th Mar 2009 04:23
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Quote: "the problem is you take on some responsibilty for the transactions that take place if they do go wrong because it looks like the authors are endorsed on these forums."

Which is why there will be language explicitly stating that the Artists are not endorsed or supported by TGC in any way...it's that simple.

Quote: "Don't they know that it's going to come back on them?"

How exactly?

I'm not trying to make an "Angie's List" of Artists here at all; just trying to keep it simple.

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xplosys
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Posted: 6th Mar 2009 05:22
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Quote: "Which is why there will be language explicitly stating that the Artists are not endorsed or supported by TGC in any way"


The list is an endorsement. Saying that it isn't doesn't make it true. This is not the yellow pages. When you select a list of names and publish them on your site, you endorse them. Look up "promotion".

Quote: "How exactly?"


I'm sorry, but I explained it the best I could. I've been self employed since 1986. My clients depend on me to provide them with solutions for their business. If I were to provide my clients with a list of people who do what they need, that would be a recommendation. Otherwise, why would I offer a list. I could tell them to look in the phone book.

If one of them is burned by someone on the list, they are (and rightfully so) going to come right back to me and complain, wanting me to make it right. I gave them the list. I can keep repeating that I'm not responsible, but when they tell others - and they will - it's going to be me who screwed them.

I fear that I'm going to make some bad karma here so I'll not post on it again. It's not my intention to put anyone or any idea down. I just see problems with this idea of not being responsible and what that will cause.

Best.

fpsFREE - Contact Me
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KeithC
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Posted: 6th Mar 2009 05:46
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Well; the idea was a good one, in my opinion. As I have yet to see any of the usual artists here post on the matter; I'll consider it something they'd rather not be part of (other than one I've been in contact with). I know I've got better things to do with my free time.

All I can say is that I'm spending way too much time trying to get things going for the community (as you can probably tell from my name on a good majority of the stickies throughout the FPSC Boards).

The rating system would most likely never have been a good idea with this type of setup; but I was looking for some ideas as to how to institute this in a productive way.

Either the artists here don't care, or are waiting for someone else to hash this out. Either way; there's no point in proceeding without community support.

I'm not taking a poke at you Brian (although I am pretty wound up from dealing with Felons who act like kids, where I work); I'm just venting a bit of my frustration.....

Anyways; bad Karma aside, you had some good points.

-Keith

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Nickydude
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Posted: 6th Mar 2009 10:05 Edited at: 6th Mar 2009 10:06
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If you walked into a grocery shop with many different leaflets offering all sorts(PC repair or windows washed anyone ) on the counter and followed up on one would you hold the shop responsible? It's just another medium to get people's business across.



THE ANSWER TO ALL FPSC QUESTIONS!
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Dr Parsnips
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Posted: 6th Mar 2009 11:07
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Hey Keith, i'm a little confused when you say invitation only. Does that mean you are going to hand pick some and email them or are you waiting for the artists to contact you and then you will decide who should go on the list?

Thanks!

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KeithC
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Posted: 6th Mar 2009 16:11
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Quote: "Does that mean you are going to hand pick some and email them or are you waiting for the artists to contact you and then you will decide who should go on the list?"

It was going to start out with contacting Bond, Jon, Jake (EAI), and possibly Simon. I figured if started off with well-known artists, it would have a chance. I was also going to contact Cosmic Prophet, because there are those that are willing to take free requests. Whether the artist wanted to do things for pay or for free, would be listed in their profile (ie., Work Type: Commercial Only/ Work Type: Commercial and/or Free, etc.)

Like I said above (you'll have to excuse the delivery as it was close to midnight and I was pretty tired); unless I see some support from the community (especially some more artists), I see no reason to proceed. I may e-mail the above artists with a link to this thread and see if they have any interest at all.

Quote: "If you walked into a grocery shop with many different leaflets offering all sorts(PC repair or windows washed anyone ) on the counter and followed up on one would you hold the shop responsible? It's just another medium to get people's business across."

That's pretty much what I had figured; but I do value Brian's advice, as I know he doesn't mean to come off negative...he's just trying to be realistic. The rules involved would have to be very clear, but I would have to remain neutral when it came to the actual transaction.

Anyways, thanks for the responses.

-Keith

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Kurotatsu
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Posted: 7th Mar 2009 04:50
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I suppose in the longrun it would be in the best interest of anyone trying to see this move forward, support a positive let's give it a shot attitude, and welcome a new dynamic for FPSC, and this forum.

What's the worst that can happen. Noone here is dumb enough to spend the family fortune on custom models, and the only way to move forward is test the waters.

The above mentioned artists while not obligated to join this venture have, and I'm sure I speak for most of us when we think of them, a good repor and fan base here. Just keep in mind they have their own persuits beyond creating models for everybody else.

I'd like to this community grow in not just this fashion, but with scripting as well. I think this has the opportunity to create another avenue for cooperation among members.

"Perception is my reality." Kuro.
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Dr Parsnips
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Posted: 7th Mar 2009 13:00
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Quote: "Like I said above (you'll have to excuse the delivery as it was close to midnight and I was pretty tired); unless I see some support from the community (especially some more artists), I see no reason to proceed. I may e-mail the above artists with a link to this thread and see if they have any interest at all.
"

Well im very interested in it so you have my support.

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Errant AI
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Posted: 7th Mar 2009 13:20 Edited at: 7th Mar 2009 13:46
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Keith, I've replied to your email.

I think sometimes a list can be just a list. If I go to the mall food court, eat a Big Mac and get food poisoning I am going to blame the franchise, corporation and myself before I blame the mall. Likewise, I don't think anyone would be justified in blaming 7-Eleven if they got lung cancer from the smokes they bought there.

Edit to add: I have to think it might be more beneficial to the community to have a moderated board (I say board because I really think a single thread would be too time consuming to manage) for requests for assistance on valid projects (limited one thread per user and having some strict guidelines about certian info which must be included) because, realistically, within this community, the custom (single customer) media arena is a seller's market more than a buyer's market. This is due to the large volume of developers needing assets and a small number of those able to fulfil those needs. Personally, it would be more appealing to me to brows a listing of active requests when I need to pick up some extra cash and more fair to potential clients because I do think that participating in an artist listing would mean that I would need to have a good amount of availability to to custom work- which I do not.
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KeithC
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Posted: 7th Mar 2009 19:16
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Really; I would be more in favor of a board as well, I'm just not sure that TGC wants another board. There could even be a sticky like we've been discussing for a select few...at the top of it.

I've replied back.

-Keith

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bond1
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Posted: 8th Mar 2009 19:36 Edited at: 8th Mar 2009 19:36
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Hey Keith, thanks for putting in the legwork to get this off the ground. Just a bold disclaimer at the top would suffice as far as letting people know that TGC is in no way responsible - it's a FREELANCER you're hiring, an individual, not TGC. And I think any reasonable person can understand that.

Add my name to the list, but I am currently unavailable for any work through the end of March, and possibly longer depending on if my current project ends up being successful. But even then, I could probably fit in some small jobs here and there.

----------------------------------------
"bond1 - You see this name, you think dirty."
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KeithC
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Posted: 9th Mar 2009 12:55
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Thought about adding a section in each artist's entry:

Availability: Commercial

Availability: Commercial/Free

Availability: Not available at this time

Availability: Available for intermittent work only

.....as an example. I could change the Availability type when the artist is ready.

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KeithC
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Posted: 10th Mar 2009 06:32
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Had another idea. Instead of a "artist for hire" thread; what about a profile/bio of the artist, that included contact info?

Something that could include a small biography about the artist (focused on their artistic abilities), samples of their work, and contact info?

....or possibly a conglomeration of what I mentioned above, and the bio?

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henry ham
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Posted: 10th Mar 2009 10:30
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sounds good ,any idea of a timeframe for this ?

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KeithC
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Posted: 10th Mar 2009 18:20
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It depends on artist participation (not much currently), and community support for the idea. If both of those are lacking; then it's a dead issue.

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The Next
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Posted: 10th Mar 2009 18:37
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Well i think this is a good idea im getting better and better at modelling now and am doing freelance work for people already so i would be very happy to support this thread/board/thing.

If you do set up this then i would love to be one of the artists listed although i am not as good as bond1 or EAI.

A board would be better maybe a sub-board off the models and media board would work better so its hidden from view on main page but can be accessed via the models and media board.

Anyway thats just a few things hope to see this get going

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Flatlander
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Posted: 10th Mar 2009 19:30
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I support whatever can be worked out. Would actually use it as I will always be in need of models.

The past has a lot of memories to hold onto; but, today is chock full of new adventures, and, the future shouts out, "The best is yet to come!" -- TerryC
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Asteric
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Posted: 10th Mar 2009 21:11
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I will offer as much support as i can too

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KeithC
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Posted: 11th Mar 2009 15:58
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One of the discussions I've heard is that the majority of developers using FPSC wouldn't be able to afford a semi-pro artist's rates....and I tend to agree with them. But; considering the time it takes to "fill an order" and the few potential "real", it may work out.

More later.

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Kurotatsu
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Posted: 11th Mar 2009 18:44 Edited at: 11th Mar 2009 18:56
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I like the bio idea.

The Next:
Quote: "If you do set up this then i would love to be one of the artists listed although i am not as good as bond1 or EAI"


I'm of the same mind as the next, but with practice comes skill and I think it will open more avenues for we lesser knowns to get some exposure as well as show some of our other talents.

While I'm sure Models are in the forefront of mind for most premoting this venture, let's not forget all the other content an artist may offer.(Loading screens, Buttons, Crosshairs, Hud displays, Webdesign, ect...)

There are many gifted Photoshop(or other) people with skill who are yet fairly untouched, and I'd like to see more content out of.

"Perception is my reality." Kuro.
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KeithC
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Posted: 12th Mar 2009 17:12
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Well; I'm retiring this idea for now, as the response isn't good enough to spend the kind of time I'd need to on it. Thanks for all the input everyone. Maybe we can get something started one of these days. I'll let people know if it's going to pop up again.

-Keith

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