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Geek Culture / Vista... to buy or not to buy?

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indi
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Posted: 10th Apr 2007 04:35
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hey el goorf, since the advent of switching to intel you can run DBP on power macs and mac book pros, with boot camp and a windows install.
Perhaps your thinking of running it in Mac OSX. regardless your comments are hardly earth shattering. meh kids.

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Dr Manette
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Posted: 10th Apr 2007 05:01
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Is it safe to come out from the bunker, has the fighting stopped?

From what I've read/heard, I would wait on vista. It's going to be better than xp I'm sure, but still has bugs that could pose problems or be annoying. Really, unless there's something "magic" about it, why bother until programs start requiring it?


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El Goorf
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Posted: 10th Apr 2007 15:06
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silence whippersnapper!

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David R
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Posted: 10th Apr 2007 17:33
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Quote: "Not really, grown ups unlike yourself, dont have to stoop to immature actions.
Clearly it shows after all this time, you still cant fathom the AUP.

If the truth hurts, I guess thats why you thought it was amusing to post vulgarity.
Perhaps thats the way you were dragged up. who really knows, or cares.

Ignorance or Stupidity on your behalf, more then anything, is why your on a slap.
Anyway Im done here, unless I catch any more nonsense.

How about you do some research into the subject, regardless of what is suggested here.
Making a commercial purchase via here-say and conjecture on a website is hardly efficient research before spending money on a product.

It looks like you have more important issues anyway with your drupal install on your site.
"


I find the 'immature actions' part of that somewhat ironic, recalling the somewhat stupendous reasoning behind some of your thread locks, and the incredibly awful 'comebacks' which simply resort to personal insults when you run out of actual reasoning; and in fact, that "the way you were dragged up" statement is a shining hallmark example of this. I also find this ironic from the person who writes most sentences lacking a capital letter at the start of each word; my behaviour in this thread may of came across as 'immature' but at least I can actually write English better than a 5 year old can.

Also, try and see if you can fathom the point of a forum while we're on the topic of 'fathoming' things; the point is to read other peoples' posts. As I said, the point of me posting that link was the article, not the image. The vulgarity is irrelevant to my point.

The "here-say and conjecture" part I have no idea about though - nothing of what I said about Macs was actually anything to do with my Vista decision, I was just 'slamming' the smarmy "Macs are great" attitude (which you'd know if you did the uncanny action of actually reading my posts)

And yes, I'm fully aware if the Drupal issue on my site.

So I suppose what I'm trying to say here, is that I'm sorry for the somewhat 'rough' statement on Macs presented by Maddox's site, and I didn't mean to offend you directly; I just thought the point of the article was ironically similar to the status of the thread. But at the same time, I really don't think it's your place to making comments on the maturity of others.


"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it" - Winston Churchill
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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Apr 2007 19:08
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What Folks Really Think About Vista - PC WORLD

Second Thoughts

I am sorry I ever bought a new laptop with Vista. My Adobe Acrobat Professional 7.0 does not work; to have the same functionality, I have to repurchase Acrobat 8.0 Pro for $449. (I can't even buy the upgrade because Vista will not allow me to install my Acrobat 7.0 Pro.)

Mr. Gates did not do anyone any favors because that is only the tip of the iceberg. My Lexmark X74-75 doesn't have upgraded drivers. Then there's Jasc Paint Shop telling me I need to buy Corel's version XI in order to use the product with Vista.

If you ever have the chance to bump into Mr. Gates, tell him thanks. I am 61 years old and finally beginning to understand why kids hack their software products. They all deserve it and Vista is the case in point."

--Joe S., Jersey City, New Jersey

Even the Pros Are Annoyed

As a professional IT consultant and owner of a firm serving many clients, I share your views of Vista being (for all intents and purposes) an intermediary step to the next OS revolution.

We have halted any clients from installing Vista, and many are having trouble finding PCs without it (searching for laptops or desktops with Win XP Pro installed is a full-time job). We blogged about it on our Web site and are waiting for the two-year itch for the next OS upgrade."

--Thomas P., Huntington Beach, California

I've documented some of my experiences trying to build a PC that I can sell to clients who want Vista. Some really basic, but key add-ons, such as Real audio/video and QuickTime, aren't Vista-ready yet, In several instances I was unable to get the Java runtime to work (upon going to a site with Java content IE7 would simply close).

Pity the poor public who is pushed out of the nest and forced to fly with Vista."

--Tim W., Dallas

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Benjamin
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Posted: 11th Apr 2007 19:30
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Quote: "If you ever have the chance to bump into Mr. Gates, tell him thanks. I am 61 years old and finally beginning to understand why kids hack their software products. They all deserve it and Vista is the case in point.""

Obviously a person that doesn't believe in software evolving...

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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 11th Apr 2007 19:43
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The betas were out for ages before the final product hit the shelves. It was ample time for software developers to get their software up to scratch and ensure that drivers and the like are compatible with Vista. Windows can't evolve whilst supporting all the software that's currently on the market, and at the same time they can't do much in the way of making the software work without hindering the advancement.

I do agree though, so many companies just haven't caught up with Vista yet and I don't think it's really acceptable that Vista has been out for a couple of months now and there's still basic hardware without supporting drivers - given the fact that the betas were out at least 6 months prior to the release, it can't be hard to check to make sure drivers work and if they don't, at least have some basic functionality drivers in place for the release.

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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Apr 2007 19:49
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Evolving would be nicer.
Requiring new hardware in conjunction with "trusted software" (read $$$ & £££) is a radical departure.

-------------------------------------------------------
http://forums.pcworld.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8391&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25&sid=
298a1698e061ed57521d5103a80d04d5

Nipperspot
Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: Wait! Don't Buy Microsoft Windows Vista

I used Windows Vista Betas and RC versions and never really had success running Vista. I received Windows Vista Business 32-bit version from Microsoft through the Power Together web site and installed it. Comparing Vista to XP Professional SP2, I may stick with XP Pro SP2 for some time. Vista actually ads steps when trying to access certain features that only take one or two steps in XP. The Desktop is clunkier in Vista compared to XP, large icons (which can be resized by clicking on an icon and scroll your mouse to change all desktop icon size), and harder to navigate interface. Microsoft didn't make Vista easier to use, they made it much harder. The people that I showed Vista to so far do not like the looks and feel.

I know Microsoft is working on Vista SP1 and another new operating system is 2 1/2 years, hopefully. Maybe by then Microsoft will have forced majority of its users to upgrade to Vista and loosing the users to either Mac OS X or Linux. If Mac OS X was the dominate operating system, things may be better. Mac OS X is great and its user friendly, and it just works.


jrbauer01
Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: Wait! Don't Buy Microsoft Windows Vista

Believe this! I am packing up my brand new Dell Dimension 9200 and sending it back to Dell because Vista was SO UNSTABLE! It locked up 3-4 times per day. Dell's diagnosis? I was installing incompatible programs - like ITunes, McAfee and Palm Treo software - all the programs I use daily. Their "fix" was to reinstall the original image and not use any of the 3rd party programs I use every day! So they'll take it back and I'll wait... (Like you should!) JRB


Caveman613
Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: My concerns about Windows Vista are the costs to upgrade.

I am retired. I used to do a lot of work on the many computers owned by the religious congregation where I worship. I do not own a computer that uses Windows Vista, but I have worked on and with some computers that do as favors to friends and family members.
What bothers me about Windows Vista is, it is SO expensive to upgrade to in every way. Not only is this latest operating system from Microsoft much more expensive overall with the exception of the Home Basic version, but it has caused the prices of new computers to jump to a much higher cost. For example, an E-machine Model W3118 with Windows XP service Pack 2 was costing $298.00 at Wal-Mart here only a month or two ago. Now, the E-machine being sold at Wal-Mart that replaced the Model W3118 that was being sold for $298.00 at Wal-Mart here costs $458.00, or a $160.00 increase in cost. I looked at what this new computer had on it.
Sure enough, there was Window Vista Home Edition ($99.00) and a 512 megabyte stick of RAM ($60.00) on it.
Many of us have computers that we bought only last year, that have CPUs that are more than fast enough to run Windows Vista, but for us to even try to upgrade to Windows Vista, we have to buy more RAM, newer CD or DVD programs, video cards and drivers, etc, before we even get to buying the version of Windows Vista that we need or want. This means that by the time some of us have gotten all we need to upgrade our computers to Windows Vista, we could be spending as much as $700.00 or more. For some of us, we would actually be saving money by buying a totally new computer that has Windows Vista already installed on it. That simply is neither right nor fair. Microsoft, other software manufacturers, and the computer and hardware manufacturers should not exploit their customers like that. Neither is it right for these people to try to force us to buy more expensive stuff like Windows Vista and its inherent hardware and software upgrades are.
We can all probably learn how to use Windows Vista; after all, we all had to learn how to use Windows 95 when it came out after all those years of DOS. But like the first release of Windows 95, Windows Vista already shows to have problems that will have to be fixed. So, I have to agree with the person who wrote this article when he says that no one needs to rush down and buy a copy of Windows Vista. And the writer of this article is not alone. The people at Cnet and ZDnet say the same thing. Although Windows Vista's graphics is absolutely beautiful, it would be foolish to upgrade to a new operating system just because it looks good. The fact of the matter is, Windows Vista provides no compelling reason at this point in time for anyone to upgrade to it. To the contrary, it ipso-facto actually gives everyone up to hundreds of reasons to not upgrade to it at all; or at least for a while. Every one of those reasons is dollars people will have to spend to upgrade to Windows Vista when there is not yet one necessary reason it can provide for doing so.


mrjimphelps
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: Wait! Don't Buy Microsoft Windows Vista

Now that XP is in really good shape, I see no reason to follow the Pied Piper down the Vista path. I'll let all of the "gamma testers" purchase Vista and choke on all the bugs, then let Microsoft fix the bugs, then perhaps I'll get Vista.

I just bought a new PC from HP. They had TWO in their inventory with XP, and I bought one of those two. It's a great PC.

If Microsoft wants me to troubleshoot Vista for them, then the least they can do is lower the price.

-------------------------------------------------------
Windows MESS (Mistake Edition Second Strike)

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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 11th Apr 2007 19:55
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Heartbone, you're only picking out the negative comments from that site. It'd probably be more useful if you just left the link to the page and let whoever's interested evaluate the opinions on that page.

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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Apr 2007 20:02
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_Nemesis_, those are not negative comments.

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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Apr 2007 20:11
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Some PC vendors, such as Alienware and Polywell, are aggressively pushing XP over Vista, because both say graphics and other drivers for Vista aren't quite ready for prime time.

You may consider these posts anti-Vista, which I believe is a positive thing for the computing community as a whole.

You see _Nemesis_, progress does not have to be dictated by greed.

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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Apr 2007 20:27
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[My long WINDOWS UPDATE download is almost finished.]

Besides the M$ hardware snobbery, the unnecessary monopolistic software cost and the NSA-DRM process lockouts,
THE ONLY PROMISE OF SERIOUSLY INCREASED FUNCTIONALITY IN WINDOWS® VISTA® IS FOR GAMERS.

Other applications should exhibit the normal functionality increase that occurs within a maturing software suite.

From: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,128669-page,2-c,vistalonghorn/article.html

Gaming on Vista--and Vista's DirectX 10 graphics support--is awesome for gamers. But that's something you'll be able to fully take advantage of only later. The full gaming potential of DirectX 10 requires three elements: an operating system, supporting graphics hardware, and supporting games. The operating system is ready, the graphics hardware is partly ready, and the games are nowhere. Eventually, Vista will be the ultimate PC gaming platform. But there's simply no reason for gamers to rush out and buy Vista next week.

Sure, you can buy Vista and install it on an old PC. But that's like subscribing to HD cable, but not buying an HD TV. You're paying for the HD experience but not actually experiencing it.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 11th Apr 2007 20:33
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Quote: "[My long WINDOWS UPDATE download is almost finished.]"

Would you rather there were no updates at all?

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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Apr 2007 20:38
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Of course the perfect OS would be nice Benjamin ,
but they stopped that project in its tracks back in the 90's.

Download finished!

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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 11th Apr 2007 21:00
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Quote: "_Nemesis_, those are not negative comments."


Only picking out the bad points is showing Vista in a negative light.

Quote: "You see _Nemesis_, progress does not have to be dictated by greed."


I never said anything suggesting such a thing?

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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Apr 2007 00:46
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Quote: "Of course the perfect OS would be nice Benjamin ,
but they stopped that project in its tracks back in the 90's."


There is NO such thing as a bug-free OS, and there will NEVER be. Microsoft, Linux vendors, and Apple will be releasing patches until the end of time.

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GatorHex
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Posted: 12th Apr 2007 01:18
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They just reviewed it on the Gadget Show and their recommendation was the same as mine, "just wait until you get a new PC".

Its too much hassel and cost, for very few benefits.

http://gadgetshow.five.tv/jsp/5gsmain.jsp?lnk=401§ion=Features&show=s6e9&featureid=347&description=Microsoft%20Vista

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jasonhtml
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Posted: 12th Apr 2007 03:45
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i got vista premium and its great! except for the lack of some drivers, its fine. some people just like to complain about things...

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heartbone
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Posted: 12th Apr 2007 08:44
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Quote: "i got vista premium and its great! except for the lack of some drivers, its fine. "
As much as it costs, as long as it took to produce it had better be CTP and it's not. The lack of hardware drivers is a critical deficiency to any most any user.

But hey, that's just one opinion. Here's some more for you.

-----------------------------------------

http://forums.pcworld.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10058

"Vista seems to benefit Microsoft a lot more than their customers." - Ogman
-=-
Ogman, I think I see a Mac in my future as well. Or, at least LINUX. I'm 90% happy with Mepis LINUX, but that's a conversation for a different forum.

My first 30 days with Vista have been pretty ho-hum. Avast! supports Vista, so no issues there. Basically, everything I've needed to do, I've been able to accomplish with Vista. The only problem I have is that there really is no "wow" factor. That term is getting played to death, isn't it?Rolling Eyes Microsoft has been pushing the improvements in interface, stability, and security. I've already got those with XP, though. Let me elaboate:

INTERFACE
The interface looks good, but I can get nearly the same look and doo-dads (widgets) with some free add-ons for XP. Maybe in the future when DX10 is implemented by more publishers, we'll all notice a big difference.

STABILITY
Too soon to tell. Vista is stable for me, but so was XP, so Vista can't get higher marks in that area. *Actually, I reinstall XP once a year to keep it speedy. If Vista can allow me to go more than one year without reinstalling, I'll give it higher marks for stability.

SECURITY
My Vista hasn't been attacked by a virus / trojan / malware yet. My XP never got attacked by those things, either. Maybe it's smart computing, maybe it's just luck, maybe a bit of both. Either way, Vista has not improved my security.

I'll give Vista a "C" grade: AVERAGE. It does what I need it to do, but so did XP. At this time, it doesn't bring anything new to the party. The potential may be there, but nobody is taking advantage of it yet. In my book, it's just not worth upgrading at this time.
-=-
I said I needed a computer that works, not one that doesn't work. He advised it's best to purchase an Operating System that's been out at least 2 years if I'm looking for an OS with the least amount of crashes and/or other problems. Several months ago I upgraded to XP and I'm so grateful for all the “beta-users” who have the free time to put up with all the bugs in new OS's because I personally have different priorties other than putting up with computer crashes. Thanks, people.
-=-
Most of the errors concerned a misunderstanding of the levels of measurement. The software version or method of installation of the software are nominal measures. Pre-installation is not worse than a clean install, nor is work-required use superior to improved security. Computation of a mean of these values is moot.
Satisfaction with the software, for instance, uses the ordinal level of measurement; variance calculations on this data is significant. However, placing "Don't Use" on the continuum of satisfaction and including those responses in calculations distorts the results. Please reissue the report.
-=-
XP is FINALLY a really good product. And, guess what, NO ONE sells it pre-installed anymore! You're stuck either installing XP yourself, or participating in Microsoft's continuing beta-test program. I don't call this "progress", I call it Microsoft making suckers of us all.
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heartbone
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Posted: 12th Apr 2007 22:42
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Windows XP to be phased out by year's end despite customer demand

Computer makers have been told they'll no longer be able to get Windows XP OEM by the end of this year, despite consumer resistance to Vista and its compatibility problems.

By early 2008, Microsoft's contracts with computer makers will require companies to only sell Vista-loaded machines. "The OEM version of XP Professional goes next January," said Frank Luburic, senior ThinkPad product manager for Lenovo. "At that point, they'll have no choice."

Despite Microsoft's relentless promotion of Vista, manufacturers are still seeing plenty of demand from customers for systems preloaded with XP, especially in the finicky SOHO market.

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Dr Manette
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Posted: 13th Apr 2007 05:51
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Have anything you'd like to say, or are you still quoting other people? Obviously you don't like vista, but you don't need to post lines of negative comments that are taken from another source.


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heartbone
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Posted: 13th Apr 2007 15:13 Edited at: 13th Apr 2007 15:14
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Dr Manette, likewise you didn't need to make your post.
In an attempt to please you, how about this statement?

Only a monopoly could have the arrogance to halt producing a popular product that produces almost pure profit,
to force us onto something new which would lock us out of our computers.

How's that?

Anyhow here's good news.
VISTA'S TOAST.
Oh Yeah!

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heartbone
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Posted: 13th Apr 2007 16:25
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* Customers purchasing Windows preloaded on new PCs. OEMs are required to stop selling Windows XP on January 29, 2008.

* Customers purchasing Windows as shrink-wrapped retail product. Retailers are required to stop selling Windows XP on January 29, 2008.

* Customers purchasing Windows preloaded on machines from system builders get a slightly longer reprieve. System builders are required to stop preloading Windows XP on January 29, 2009.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/default.mspx
-----------------------------------------------
I wonder when M$ will stop selling XP licenses?
I wonder what happens to unsold licences after the deadlines?

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Steve J
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Posted: 13th Apr 2007 17:05
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Actually heartbone this is a standard practice. They always do things like this, ie with Windows 2000 and Windows ME ect.

pleading and needing and bleeding and breeding and feeding exceeding..where is everybody? trying and lying defying denying crying and dying..where is everybody?
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Jeku
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Posted: 13th Apr 2007 23:16
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If Microsoft wants to stop selling XP, then that is their choice. There is no law against it. That is akin to Corel not selling back versions of PSP, is it not? Or Sony not selling Playstation 1 hardware any longer.

I honestly don't see the problem with Microsoft halting support for old versions of its software which it has full right to do. They are doing it to make more money--- well no kidding. They are a for-profit corporation, so ultimately their top priority is their shareholders, and that goes for every public company.

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heartbone
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 04:49 Edited at: 15th Apr 2007 04:55
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You'll either love it or hate it, and I gotta love this post.
It made me want to share it here with you all.

As posted on blog page:
Yup, should be quite a spectacle when we drive the herd from the XP Ranch down to Vista Flats

xlinuks said on April 14, 2007 at 12:40 pm:

Vista is slow because it’s not an operating system, it’s a DRM machine behind eye candy gadgets. For example, before running a movie or _anything_ Vista first launches a (hidden) service that’s checking whether you (the user) are legally watching it (or other media), and stops _only_ after you stop watching it. Vista is the most user-hostile OS ever created and the technology to do it Microsoft calls “DRM”. It has been purposely called “Digital Rights Management” (which is rather “Digital Restrictions Management”) to make the average Joe User think that it cares about the user, in fact the it _monitors_ the user. You would be unpleasantly surprised if you could see how much of inner code in Vista is dedicated to prevent the user from watching/doing anything that isn’t proven to be legal. In Vista you are considered as an illegal user right from the beginning until you prove you’re not and you if don’t - you’re punished (through degraded image and sound quality) - welcome back to the USSR regime!

------------------------------------------------
David R, I've never clicked Vista.

However after being an actual programmer (starting with punch card decks) for over 30 years I know a bit about computers.
After reading all that I have over the past week or so, I'm now ready to answer your four questions.

Worth buying?
Only if you need it for your job or if you won't be happy unless you have the latest toy.

Worth going all the way and getting Ultimate?
Only if spending hundreds of dollars for eyecandy makes sense to you.

Pro's/Cons of XP->Vista?
Let's assume that you don't have any computer gear or experience. In that case Vista is most likely the way to go (even if it becomes the next ME), you'll learn a lot and have a reason to change your OS in a few years. For anyone who already has XP it's one big con for the many reasons well stated elsewhere.

Overall Impression?
You have to be either a computer neophyte, a big Microsoft shareholder, or wealthy to actually want to buy Vista for little to no real benefit.

When I read this:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,130710-c,xp/article.html

In a statement, Microsoft acknowledged its Vista emphasis.
"Windows Vista is safer, easier to use, better connected, and more entertaining that any operating system we've ever released, and we're encouraged by the positive customer response we've seen to date," the company said in a statement.

That said it all for me.
We know that the safety is compromised and the networking has soime rough edges.
The ease of use is hotly debated.
That leaves entertaining which I will not dispute.
However that is not remotely a proper function of any computer operating system.

How's that David R?

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David R
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Posted: 15th Apr 2007 19:24
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Quote: "Only if you need it for your job or if you won't be happy unless you have the latest toy."


Please read the original post:

Quote: "(because I need to ensure my C++ apps work with Vista 100%, and I love having the 'hip and current' Windows OS)"



Quote: "Worth going all the way and getting Ultimate?
Only if spending hundreds of dollars for eyecandy makes sense to you."


OEM'd premium only costs £70. Ultimate is £109. Not exactly a bank-breaker for genuine full-install Vista. The cost is not exactly a factor here for that reason.

Quote: "
For anyone who already has XP it's one big con for the many reasons well stated elsewhere."


And those cons are....? I haven't seen any con here related directly to XP->Vista upgrade. A couple of flimsy shots taken at Vista's DRM and other features, but none of these hindrance an upgrade from XP at all.

Quote: "You have to be either a computer neophyte, a big Microsoft shareholder, or wealthy to actually want to buy Vista for little to no real benefit."


Or how about, I want to ensure my applications function under Vista, I want to make use of the new Vista API's such as the Game Explorer, and I want to learn DirectX, I'm sick of the cascading all programs menu and want a nice scroll bar and search. The sidebar will definitely come in handy, being a nice addition 'n all.

I had a chance to use Vista the other day - and although it is in some parts more annoying safety-wise, it was extremely fast to start up, and was generally in awe of how slick it all was.

I would rather run a slightly rough-around-the-edges, current and modern operating system, than being a programmer who is constantly in fear of change. Fear of change is a silly thing for a programmer to have really; seeing as though things are changing constantly.

As I learnt with the 98->XP transition (when I was still coding with DOS) you either embrace the changes on the platform, or your code gets left behind with the old stuff. That's exactly why I'm going to Vista - I've ordered, and it'll arrive tomorrow or on Tuesday.

Wish me luck for my upgrade, and hopefully I'll post some pretty screenshots post-upgrade.


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David R
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 20:58 Edited at: 16th Apr 2007 20:59
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Well, I'm finally up and running with Vista, and I like it. Incredibly fast too, faster than my XP install was. The sounds are somewhat minimal to say the least, and the screen 'blip' when a UAC question appears can be somewhat annoying, but besides that it's running very fast, and extremely slick too.

Enjoy (MSVC SP1 install was taking it's time however )




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bitJericho
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 21:35 Edited at: 16th Apr 2007 21:41
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I'm lovin it

desktop is attached..

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heartbone
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 22:08
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Quote: "Wish me luck for my upgrade,"


Good luck David.

I'm unique, just like everybody else.
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 23:25
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Well, Vista just got installed on the DiDA PCs around schools. And it's slow. I honestly thought that five minutes to log on was long enough, but fifteen? The PCs are 3.2GHz Pentium 4s equipped with 1GB of ram. Not sure about the graphics hardware; it think it's on-board.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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SageTech
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 23:31
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Quote: "Not sure about the graphics hardware; it think it's on-board"


That would most likely be the culprit then, because that is below minimum standards.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 23:34
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Please explain why school PCs should require nVidia 8800s. Oh wait, you don't have to. Microsoft has made it even more expensive for everyone this time.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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SageTech
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 23:40
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Quote: "Please explain why school PCs should require nVidia 8800s"


You don't, you just have to make sure its at least 128mb dedicated graphics memory, and seeing as you could get a generic graphics card with twice that much, I see no problem with it.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 23:42
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But when the school has 120 computers, all of which never do anything above word processing, that's a pain in the arse.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 23:47
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There's more too it than just that. Our school PCs take about 10 minutes to logon, running XP, 3.0ghz P4s. We've had to switch to local profiles because of it. I'll have to see next week, when the network is strained again, whether that switch was worth it.

It's been officially recommended to UK schools that they don't upgrade to Vista. I don't personally see the need for schools to upgrade yet, saying that, some of the PCs we have in school would barely run it.

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SageTech
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 23:48
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Quote: "But when the school has 120 computers, all of which never do anything above word processing, that's a pain in the arse."


If thats the case, then they should have bought xp, getting vista just for word processing is abit of an overkill.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 16th Apr 2007 23:50
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Ah, yes, but this is a school where I had to teach my teacher how to use JavaScript.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Apr 2007 01:41
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Quote: "Ah, yes, but this is a school where I had to teach my teacher how to use JavaScript."


Even I don't know how to use javascript Why would someone need it unless they need to for their website?

And about logging in, sounds like someone needs to fire your IT personnel.. I can login to my computer much faster than XP ever did.. And bootup time to the login screen is about the same.

In fact, you can see my stats in the screenshot (Although my processor's overclocked to 2.72ghz. It's fairly low end, and runs better than XP does on this machine.

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heartbone
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Posted: 17th Apr 2007 03:30
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SP1 should fix most of the networking problems.

That's why it's taking so long to login at school.

How could anyone blame IT for Vista is beyond me.

It's definitely NOT ready for prime time.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Apr 2007 04:49
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Quote: "How could anyone blame IT for Vista is beyond me."


Why would IT role something out that doesn't work? Why would they keep a system in place that takes 15 minutes to login to...

Secondly, there is no such thing as SP1 for vista... And I don't get where you think that this login problem will be fixed with it.

Thirdly, this login problem must be caused by a misconfiguration, being that vista is successfully being used just fine by large and small companies.

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David R
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Posted: 17th Apr 2007 13:09
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Quote: "SP1 should fix most of the networking problems.

That's why it's taking so long to login at school.

How could anyone blame IT for Vista is beyond me.

It's definitely NOT ready for prime time.
"


Networking problems? Have you actually done the common thing known as using Vista before? Because it sounds to me as if you're just mindlessly blaming Vista for every possible flaw: Networking is fine. Sure, it's been rewritten and isn't as robust as previous, and I agree - but slow login times are nothing to do with the rewritten network stack - my network works fine here, and I can play networked games and other such applications with no networking problems at all.

Before leaping to the conclusion that Vista is the cause of all problems, actually get your facts straight, and actually try using it first.


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heartbone
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Posted: 17th Apr 2007 17:16
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Quote: "actually try using it "


Misery loves company.

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David R
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Posted: 17th Apr 2007 19:01
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Quote: "Misery loves company."


Which is obviously a codeword for "I haven't used it at all, and I have no idea what I'm talking about".

As the saying goes, "Don't bash until you've tried it".


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heartbone
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2007 19:49
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I've already indicated that I haven't will never "touch" Vista, I'm not stupid enough to buy Vista.

I spent $50 extra to buy XP Pro over Vista Business.

So no codewords needed and I do have an idea for you David,
read this:

Microsoft admits Vista failure
Actions speak louder than PR

By Charlie Demerjian in Beijing: Saturday 21 April 2007, 12:20
WITH TWO OVERLAPPING events, Microsoft admitted what we have been saying all along, Vista, aka Windows Me Two (Me II), is a joke that no one wants. (more at link)

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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2007 20:14 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2007 20:16
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Erm, sorry... where does it explicitly say that Microsoft admits Vista failure in that article? It doesn't even give a further link to where they said it originally.

To be honest, love it or hate it, everyone is going to have to upgrade to Vista or move away to Linux or another operating system sooner or later.

And, I agree with you David. I don't think you can really voice your opinion too well on an operating system you've never used. Perhaps if you spent even 5 minutes using it, you might change your mind and see it from our point of view.

Anyhow, if Microsoft did indeed say that, they may need to think over it a bit. I WANTed Vista, which is why I went out and bought it, like so many other people did and I haven't looked back. Yes, it's got its downsides, but it's infinately better than XP was, therefore a valid upgrade.

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SageTech
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2007 21:02
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@heartbone

By now its easy enough to tell your not the biggest fan of vista. But for god sakes man! Stop giving us an update everytime you see something wrong with the thing! Its obvious from reading that article that the person had the same bias view as you. So, my suggestion, go mess with ilife on your obviously better mac, why do you care about such a sucky os?


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David R
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2007 21:52 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2007 21:53
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Quote: "I'm not stupid enough to buy Vista."


But you're stupid enough to imply that anyone who does use it is consequently stupid in the first place?

What I recommend, is that you actually try Vista before endlessly slagging it off, and grow up a bit; realise that yes, this is a consumer product. It's consumerism. Forced obsolescence and other MS-esque tricks are everywhere outside of the OS market, and consumerism has been around for decades, centuries even.

Also, try and form your own opinions for once, instead of just endlessly dumping everyone else's bias-centric views into your post. It's ok to use facts to back-up your arguments, but constantly citing meaningless opinionated junk like you have done so far is utterly stupid.

Obviously you're too stupid to realise that it's an "Adapt or die" situation. You're a programmer for Pete's sake; you should be used to jumping platforms and OS'es. There are a couple of bad eggs (Me was clearly just a marketin/financial thing rather than a serious OS) to avoid, yes; but Vista is a 'serious' OS - this thing has big changes, is extremely stable, and extremely fast, and is in no way like Me.

If you're scared of OS changes, you really need to stop being a programmer, and quick, because if you haven't already, you're going to see a hell of a lot of changes in OS'es and platforms etc.

</rant>


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heartbone
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2007 06:12
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I'm not scared David, I'm loving it.
The bigger they are....

I post other's opinions when they express things extremely well.

So you want my opinion?
Micro$oft HAS gone too far this time.
If they stay the course, Vista may very well will sink the ship.

I'm unique, just like everybody else.
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heartbone
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Posted: 24th Apr 2007 02:07
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Quote: "Stop giving us an update everytime you see something wrong with the thing!"

Hey SageTech! No way man, no way!
Only the best and juiciest make their way here under my avatar.
I know for a fact that that some do like them.
-------------------------------------------------------
as seen on http://slashdot.org/articles/07/04/23/1931220.shtml

"Why should a company not be allowed to discontinue a product?"

Uhhh...Because they are a monopoly that was convicted of using their monopoly position in an illegal manner. Given that people still want to buy XP, and that they can sell it at a considerable profit, one must then ask why they would not be willing to sell it to an eager public. The answer entail vendor lock in. This is a problem for a monopoly that has been convicted of anti-competitive behavior.

----

What I want to know is why it requires super duper computing abilities even with the "Turbo Hyper-Fighting Championship Edition graphics mode". It's not doing anything that's not being done on OSX or Linux (Compiz, Beryl). So why does Vista require so much power when Linux and OSX can do it on half the hardware?

-----

If you are a gamer, XP is an upgrade from Vista. Helped one build a new system recently. Of course they they bought a copy of (32bit OEM) Vista. 3D performace (with a 512MB NVidia card running current drivers) was pitiful and the machine only saw 2GB of the 4GB installed. They are in an area with no broadband so PeoplePC being unable to get them connected via dialup was the final insult.

So they bought a copy of XP and reinstalled. 3D looked like what a top of the line card should be able to do and dialup worked. Performance in general was vastly improved. Still had the 2GB memory limit though, probably not much to there except go to a 64bit system and suffer the issues involved with that... not worth it.

Yes most of their problem was probably driver related. Doesn't matter, Vista is now facing the same problem we Linux users deal with every day. Users don't want to hear excuses, if the OS doesn't work with their hardware NOW they don't want to hear "maybe it will work someday". Especially since right now it doesn't appear a Vista user has any good options. NVidia doesn't perform well, ATI doesn't even have a DX10 hard out and Intel only has low end onboard stuff.

Three years late and they still couldn't manage to bully the key hardware players to have proper support available for launch. Doesn't sound like an 800lb gorilla to me. This fiacso is going to be long remembered.

-------

more and more people are not caring about a new flashier version of windows. Now the Geeks are hoarding and around Linux and Apple, so that is where the people who care are giving excitement too, back in 95 a lot of geeks were willing to wait until midnight to be the first for Windows 95 and now many of those people will hit refresh on their browser waiting for the next version of their favorite distribution or go to Apple Update Parties. As for Windows people don't care. Sure they use it but they are not excited on getting a new version just because it looks cooler. If they are going to put money into it it needs to be something much bigger. And the fact they learned that they could keep Windows 98 running for almost a decade afterwards and still run modern stuff. Makes them realize that XP will be around for a while to and no need to upgrade, heck they could probably skip a version if they felt like it.

--------

Microsoft actually weaned me off when they started requiring "activation." So even XP isn't attractive to me — it has the same basic problem as Vista does. I run XP from time to time to verify web pages and test software, but it's in a network-free sandbox when I do. I run win98 the same way - no network - and no activation inside a sandbox (Parallels.) I don't use either one as my main OS, and I certainly have no intention of ever purchasing Vista, just to buy into the same set of risks all over again.

What happens when an XP system needs re-installation and I can't get an activation for any reason? As far as I'm concerned, if I buy it, I expect to install it, perhaps put a registration code in that will work each and every time without ever having to contact the manufacturer, and that's it. I'll grant you that it seems unlikely today that Microsoft won't be there in a few years, but will they activate an XP installation? That's a policy decision, and there's just no telling what that policy will be. I'm not hitching my cart to their policy decisions.

Whatever Vista offers, it isn't enough. I have plenty of functionality between linux and OSX, and I can run both concurrently, as is convenient. If either one ever fails, I'll just grab my install CDs and I'll be up and running in a reasonable amount of time. The rule of thumb here is (a) software on CD or DVD, and (b) registration codes, if any, sealed in the jewel case in a readable fashion.

I remember trying to re-install a screen saver (some very pretty aquarium simulation) and finding out that it wouldn't install, claiming I was trying to install it on multiple machines (I wasn't.) I wrote the company several emails about it (they were still around) and they never replied, nor would the screen saver ever work again. I was annoyed, as you might expect. But if this had been the OS instead of just a $30 screen saver, I'd have been pissed at about the nuclear level. This is exactly the risk everyone faces with XP and Vista.

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