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Geek Culture / The line has been crossed

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dark coder
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 06:35
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I'm all for banning smoking in public places as it affects other people and not just the smoker, that's what people who are against it seem to miss. Banning smoking was compared to banning drinking earlier in this thread, this isn't a valid argument as last time I checked drinking doesn't spew out crap and force it down the lungs of people nearby. People can still smoke outside of the pub right? well why don't they just do that, that way it affects a lot less people and practically no one in the pub. Also why are people comparing this to tradition? shall I just set up a nice steak in the in the road and burn you for being a witch too?

I believe that smoking is a selfish and inconsiderate activity as it not only affects you but others around you, so you're basically damaging their health due to your actions. You shouldn't get to choose how you affect other people's health which is the whole point of the ban, if smoking produced no discernible smoke, odor and didn't in any way affect other people's health then there would be no ban as you can sign your ow death wish.

I and most of my family do not smoke so I haven't been subject to much passive smoking but I totally hate the stench of it, the idea of smoking is nothing short of retarded in my eyes and when you question why people smoke they are filled with nothing but a list of excuses. One of my relatives has died from lung cancer due to smoking and another is on a verge and I don't feel sorry for them, it was their choice to start; at the time they probably thought it was cool and / or healthy to smoke but given the research of recent years into the affects they still don't stop.

Also I don't believe this whole being totally addicted that you cannot stop talk, if you absolutely cannot live without smoking then you must have almost no will power, I however can't imagine what it would be like to give up smoking as I was never stupid enough to start it in the first place.

Quote: "You know it was proposed that a massive amount of tax payer's money should be poured into training civil servants to spy on civilians to check they're not breaking the smoking ban?"


Why not? aren't all laws enforced one way or another, I'm sure lots of government money was spent into rescuing many idiots who failed to flee a certain state in America recently.

Quote: "it creates black markets"


So what? if people want to kill themselves that badly then they can go ahead and obtain it illegally, I have no problem with this. After all they aren't exactly going to go to a public place and start smoking it as they'd soon get arrested, however I agree that prohibition is a little pointless.

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Oraculaca
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 12:21
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I don't understand this whole philosophy of 'its a pub you cant go to a pub and not smoke'. Just because something is done that way for a long time does not make it right. My mother in law who is a heavy smoker told us that it was acceptable in the 70's to smoke in hospitals and when she gave birth to her first born , there was an ash tray at the side of the bed for goodness sake!! though I guessing those pleading an erosion of our rights would like to complain about that change as well.
I concede it may just be coincidence but 2 out 3 of her kids are now asthmatic after being born and growing up in smoke filled atmospheres.

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FredP
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 12:45
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Please tell me you are not comparing smoking in a hospital to smoking in a bar.
Here's the bottom line on all of this and the way it should have been done.The business,not the government,should decide whether to let people smoke in their building...you know...since they have to pay the costs of running it...not the government.
Then the consumer would be the one who ultimately decides if smoking is allowed by voting with their hard earned dollars,euros, pounds or whatever.But that would have made too much sense.
Personally,if I were still smoking and they told me I couldn't smoke in a bar I'd stay home and drink...which is cheaper anyway.
By eliminating smoking in bars you are putting people out of business and costing people their jobs.

Quote: "Also I don't believe this whole being totally addicted that you cannot stop talk, if you absolutely cannot live without smoking then you must have almost no will power"

Apparantly you know absolutely nothing about addiction.It has nothing to do with will power and maybe you should do some research.It is a proven fact that tobacco is one of the most addictive substances.My grandmother died of lung cancer and I do feel sorry for her.There were no warning labels on cigarette packs when she started smoking and by the time she quit,as is the case in a lot of these situations,it was too late.
The positive thing to come out of it was there were several people in my family that quit smoking because of it.
To all of those that think tobacco should be outlawed the prohibition thing has been brought up and think of how succesful making drugs illegal has been...not at all.
Last,but not least,think about all of the people in the tobacco industry and the tobacco farmers who will have no income?How are they supposed to pay their bills,feed their kids,etc?
Quote: "I don't understand this whole philosophy of 'its a pub you cant go to a pub and not smoke'."

You can go to a pub and not smoke...just don't expect everyone else to do the same.

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Oraculaca
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 13:12
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Quote: "By eliminating smoking in bars you are putting people out of business and costing people their jobs."


Not a single bar has closed in my area in the last year. Or are you talking about the cancer pushers that make the things?

Quote: "You can go to a pub and not smoke...just don't expect everyone else to do the same."


You seem to miss the point. I CAN expect everyone else to do the same (in the uk anyways)

Quote: "Last,but not least,think about all of the people in the tobacco industry and the tobacco farmers who will have no income?How are they supposed to pay their bills,feed their kids,etc?"


By getting a job that doesn't kill millions a year? I have no sympathy for anyone in the tobacco industry except perhaps the farmers. However there are many uses for tobacco and surprisingly most are beneficial such as bio engineers using it as a host to create antibiotics and cancer treatments which is kind of ironic. Also in the US many farmers are encouraged to diversify there crops anyway due to outsourcing from cheaper markets.

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Dared1111
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 13:17
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better start banning the smoking adverts then...

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Oolite
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 13:18
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Quote: "Why is it their right to smoke in a pub? Seems smokers have more rights than non-smokers."

It works both ways, you have a right not to smoke.

I disagree with the smoking ban, a lot of places are going to lose a lot of business.
Non-smokers think that smoking is an unsociable thing, but between smokers its very sociable. The only time i tend to light up is late at night when i'm stressed over a project, on a night out or when i'm stuck in traffic (boy it gets me past some bad road rage). I only smoke to relieve stress and because i like the taste, i go weeks without smoking and it doesn't bother me, but there are sometimes when you just need either something to do, or some form of stress releif.
I have a couple of 25g packets dotted around, i have one in my car, one on my computer desk and one i usually keep with on my person, i'm not entirely sure why i have three, but it seems that every time i go on a night out i end up buying a pack, like that time i found one in my fridge the morning after

I think, that if every time i want a cigarette, i have to go outside, possibly in the freezing cold, try to roll a cigarette in the wind, light up and wait around till i finish it, before i can then go back in and enjoy my pint, i'm going to want to stay at home with a few cans.

I'm more than happy to go outside if i'm at a mates flat or move away from my non-smoker friends, but they never expect me to do it in a pub or club, its just the norm now that for non-smokers, the only downside to a night out is waking up and smelling like an ashtray.


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Oraculaca
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 13:31 Edited at: 4th Jun 2007 13:35
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Quote: "the only downside to a night out is waking up and smelling like an ashtray."

Tell that to Roy Castle.

Ok his was a long term exposure but the risk is still there in the short term.

from new scientist(2004 before any bans):
Quote: "Secondhand tobacco smoke kills at least 3600 people a year in the UK, according to a new study, including the death of one pub or bar worker every week."


BBC NEWS 2005
Quote: "Passive smoking kills more than 11,000 a year in the UK - much higher than previously thought, a study shows.

The British Medical Journal study also gives a figure for people dying from second-hand smoke in the workplace - 600 a year - for the first time. "

from wiki U.S
Quote: "It is estimated that passive smoking kills 53,000 nonsmokers per year, making it the 3rd leading cause of preventable death in the U.S."


Quote: "Persons with asthma can experience attacks brought on by passive smoking[39] whether they are adults or children,"


Quote: "Tobacco smoke is an irritant, and allergy sufferers can experience stuffy or runny noses, watery or burning eyes, sneezing, coughing, wheezing, a feeling of suffocation, and other typical allergy symptoms within minutes of exposure"


from ash site
Quote: "Other diseases associated with passive smoking for which further study is required include: spontaneous abortion, adverse impact on learning and behavioural development in children, meningococcal infections in children, cancers and leukaemia in children, asthma exacerbation in adults, exacerbation of cystic fibrosis, decreased lung function and cervical cancer."


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Oolite
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 13:39
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So your trying to tell me, that if you spend a couple of hours a week in a smokey pub your instantly going to get cancer...come on.


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Oraculaca
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 13:40
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Quote: "Ok his was a long term exposure but the risk is still there in the short term.
"


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Oolite
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 13:43
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yeah, but you are trying to push the fact that going to a bar where there are smokers is going to kill you pretty quickly.

If you don't like smoking, don't be around smokers, simple, i do not know of any smoker that tries to blow smoke around every non-smoker.

You will be telling smokers to go outside to have a cigarette but when we do, you will moan that we are outside near the doorways smoking, either way, you will be moaning about something, i don't think smokers are the problem here.


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Oraculaca
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 13:56
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Quote: "yeah, but you are trying to push the fact that going to a bar where there are smokers is going to kill you pretty quickly."


Sorry where did I state that? I just presented figures attributable to passive smoking. No one can say how long those people were exposed to the smoke for, whether it was a couple of hours a week or 8 hours a day. That is irrelevant. The fact is that the risk is still there.

Quote: "If you don't like smoking, don't be around smokers, simple, i do not know of any smoker that tries to blow smoke around every non-smoker."

And that is the attitude that presents smokers as selfish. A cloud of smoke does not simply vanish into the rafters. It lingers in the air and when you have a room full of smokers it will quickly fill the room.

Quote: "You will be telling smokers to go outside to have a cigarette but when we do, you will moan that we are outside near the doorways smoking, either way, you will be moaning about something, i don't think smokers are the problem here."


I do think it is silly congregating around doorways especially in restaurants, as the minute the door is opened the stench gets blown inwards. I actually think they should build portaloo type structures, completely enclosed that smokers can use. Also the litter is terrible, smokers that drop fag ends in the street or out the car windows are absolutely disgusting. There was actually a problem in Princes Street Gardens in Edinburgh where the squirrels were eating fag ends and getting so out of it that they started biting folk.

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Van B
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 14:23
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Quote: "I disagree with the smoking ban, a lot of places are going to lose a lot of business."


What is the point in using the Scots as guinea pigs every time if your not gonna pay attention to the results?

We've had the ban in place for about 4 or 5 months now, and not a single pub has shut down in my home town because of it. It's like 24 hour drinking too, ohhh, it'll cause mass alcoholism, ohhh poor bar staff, blah blah blah, there's always these concearns, and they're always exaggerated beyond belief. Anyone ever been in a nightclub during the day?, or while sober?, it's one of the most depressing places you could be during the day.


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Manic
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 14:53
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Darkcoder: To compare the victims of Katrina to the government paying people to spy on its own citizens is absurd, crass and uneducated. Sure, some people were too stubborn to leave, but most couldn't leave as there was no infrastructure in place to evacuate people so poor they can't afford a car. Please don't compare proposing the Gestapo to an (avoidable) tragedy.

And saying "So what?" to a Black Market is equally stupid, why do you want more organised crime?


I'm finding some people's opinions on here a little hard to swallow, many don't seem to realise that at the heart of this matter, this is about the erosion of our freedoms.

Why would you EVER think that it's OK for the government to dictate what goes on in privately owned property?

What's next? A ban on fatty foods? Oh wait, they've started on those.

Manic

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Oolite
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 14:57
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I'm trying to say that it shouldn't be someone else that dictates what people can and can't do, either way, people are going to moan, i can understand stopping smoking in public places where there will be children around but i disagree with stopping it in pubs, i'll be happy when all my local pubs plan to make outdoor shelters.

I never said they would shut down, i was just saying that i think a lot of places will lose some customers because other places may have outdoor shelters etc.


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Van B
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 15:31
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If your having someone work at your house, be it someone from the electricity board, or a social worker, or anyone really - then you are not allowed to smoke, and neither is the person working. This is by far a bigger infringement, yet nobody has mentioned it.

We can only ever see this stuff from our own POV, but if we're gonna start talking about infringing rights, then we have to look at the big picture. As it stands, we are being told that we cannot legally smoke in our own homes when people are working there. Having to nip out the back of the pub to have a ciggie is small potatoes when they start encroaching on what we can do behind closed doors. A friend of mine is a social worker, and she is actually having a hard time because of the smoking ban, she has no problem with smokers, she smokes herself, but the new laws are basically a barrier for her, offering a stressed out mom a ciggie is absolutely unthinkable in the eyes of her bosses.


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Dazzag
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 16:21
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As far as I'm concerned it is the way people treat smokers. Forget the fact that I cannot see why there cannot be some places where smoking is allowed, or even that certain freedoms are taken away, but the sheer force of hatred that goes towards them. Drinkers have a disease and require counciling and understanding. Same goes from heroin addicts. And don't give me they don't effect other people around them. Tell that to family, friends, or simply people caught in a very violent situation directly caused by either of the 2 examples (good olde pint of beer not so nice when cousin Vinny wiped out your kids when behind the wheel smashed out of his face).

But no, smokers are scum, they just need to quit and quit now. End of. Heh, probably one of the funniest lines in South Park was when they all laid into that smoker after going to tolerence camp.

And no, I don't smoke, love the fact that a lot of places are now smoking free (also loads of room now down my local students cheapy pub where we used to go every friday night that used to be heaving - students are classic smokers), and absolutely hate everything about it. Still, the amazing amount of hatred is amusing to say the least.

Funniest, and saddest, thing I heard is a friend of mine was in hospital having a baby. Her waters broke but a few hours in (can take ages) she couldn't stand it any longer and had to have a ciggie (not exactly the most stress free situation). I mean to some people it is like alcohol is to the worst alcoholics. Anyways obviously they didn't allow smoking in the hospital (have you seen The Exorcist BTW? Laugh out loud funny... another reason to re-ban it I suppose...) but they also recently introduced a ban on smoking in the grounds. She ended up with hospital equipment on the nearest roundabout (big hospital) apparently. I mean for ***** sake, c'mon... Esp. considering she couldn't smoke in the car park which is full of cars spewing out God knows what (pretty sure it's bad for you though....).

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 17:29
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Quote: "Okay, one thing, if you're going to talk like this I'm going to have to slap you. Got it?"


I'm sorry Jeku. It just stresses me out how far people are willing to go, but I shouldn't express myself that way, I'll make sure I dont do it again.

As to what Dazzag said:

Yeah, I agree with smoking in hospitals, but it too I think goes a little far. My gran has been smoking for so long, from when there were no really known risks involved, and now ofcourse she has become really addicted. Anyway, she was really ill in hospital once, and she couldn't smoke there, and she agreed with that, so every day my mother, brother or I had to go up to the hospital and take her outside in a wheelchair for a smoke. But recently they have banned smoking in the grounds, the balcony, and yes, the smoking room. Sure it's a public place, but who actually would go into a smoking room and complain about the smoke, really? Everyday my gran then had to go out of the grounds to a nearby restaurant just for a cigarette. If anything, that just made her more ill than she was in the first place.

Anyway, I seem to be fighting a losing battle as far as the pub smoking goes, but the TV ban is just OTT. We see smoking everywhere. There is no way in heck that anyone watching TV would be inspired to smoke, unless it was a kids programme that was saying "smoke and you will get lots of money, great health and all the toys you want", but how often does that happen.. How many 18 year olds do you know that watch Tom and Jerry anyway?

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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 17:47 Edited at: 4th Jun 2007 19:53
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Quote: "Also I don't believe this whole being totally addicted that you cannot stop talk, if you absolutely cannot live without smoking then you must have almost no will power, I however can't imagine what it would be like to give up smoking as I was never stupid enough to start it in the first place."

Brilliant statement, "Those who can't give up obviously have no will power at all, of course I don't know what it's like cause I've never done it myself!". Really. You win the "stupid statement of the year" award.

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Fallout
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 18:40 Edited at: 4th Jun 2007 18:42
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haha. That is rediculous. I bet you can still watch people getting stabbed to death in 15s though. If you see someone get stabbed in a 15, there's no WAY you'd EVER use a knife, but if you see someone smoking, you're definitely gonna start up a 20/day habit.

All politicians should be executed with extreme prejudice.

@El Goorf

Sounds like you've been brainwashed by the anti-smoking campaigns mate. Passive smoking isn't remotely as dangerous as they would have you believe.

Edit: Actually, that seems to go for a lot of other people too. Not just El.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 18:54 Edited at: 4th Jun 2007 19:09
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I don't smoke, I'll never smoke. Smoking sucks. Especially, ugly people that smoke suck.

However, I don't care if other people smoke. I've been with hot women that smoke, and they were awesome. What if I wouldn't associate with them because they smoked? That would be the lamest thing ever.

Lots of people in the military smoke, and if I flipped out every time someone lit one up I'd be a real homo. On the rarest occasion I see this happen, and the person that does it looks like a complete dumbass. Occasional second hand smoke is nothing, and people just like to stand on their poorly made soap boxes because they believe that they have a right to do so. Extended exposure to second hand smoke can hurt you, not some guy in a bar lighting one up while you choose to be in a place associated with smoking and drinking.

People are dumb and lame. Everyone should lighten up. And I don't even smoke...


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Fallout
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 19:01 Edited at: 4th Jun 2007 19:02
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Basically what Cash said. These anti-smoking campaigns we've had recently spouting stupid figures like "Passive smoking increases your risk of heart disease by 1/4" are scare-mongering tripe. That statistic is calculated from partners of smokers who live with them for years, exposed to second hand smoking in an enclosed living room every evening of their lives. 1 evening a week in a pub is a tiny risk, and walking down the street behind someone who's smoking is nothing ... you're more likely to die choking on their fart gases than their second hand smoke.


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NanoGamez guy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 19:26 Edited at: 4th Jun 2007 19:27
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Quote: "As far as I'm concerned it is the way people treat smokers. Forget the fact that I cannot see why there cannot be some places where smoking is allowed, or even that certain freedoms are taken away, but the sheer force of hatred that goes towards them. "


If someone came into a bar and let out poison gas, what would you think of them?

If you want to kill yourself, at least do it outside, without killing others.


Nothing is impossible...
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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 19:33 Edited at: 4th Jun 2007 19:36
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Quote: "If someone came into a bar and let out poison gas, what would you think of them?"

Where's the research that says occasionally walking into a bar where people smoke is harmful? I can imagine walking into a bar itself is harmful, especially if you run into it hard. I do believe it's not good for you to spend a lot of time in a room filled with smoke, but it's not exactly poison gas.

If you spend so much time in bars that the smoke in there is bad for your health, then you're probably not doing much good for your health anyway.

Quote: "Passive smoking isn't remotely as dangerous as they would have you believe."

Careful, with statements like that you're almost taking away their excuse to complain about something.

Quote: "Occasional second hand smoke is nothing, and people just like to stand on their poorly made soap boxes because they believe that they have a right to do so."

I completely agree.

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El Goorf
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 19:34
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Quote: "Sounds like you've been brainwashed by the anti-smoking campaigns mate. Passive smoking isn't remotely as dangerous as they would have you believe."


I totally feel insulted. brainwashed? i know when im in a cloud of fumes it isnt pleasant, i dont need a tv commercial (i dont even watch tv) to tell me that. f* you.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 19:36 Edited at: 4th Jun 2007 19:47
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Quote: "If someone came into a bar and let out poison gas, what would you think of them?"

Quote: "If someone came into a bar and let out poison gas, what would you think of them?"

I would think they were a terrorist. So...?

What would I think if someone came into this thread and said something silly and over the top in an attempt to make a point?

Quote: "If you want to kill yourself, at least do it outside, without killing others."

Then don't go to a bar. If someone goes into a bar and has a problem with other people smoking, then they are a complete wiener and shouldn't even be in there.

NanoGamez guy, who are you?

@El Goorf -
Quote: "f* you"

You have anger management issues, my friend.


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FredP
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 19:36
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Quote: "If you want to kill yourself, at least do it outside, without killing others."


So if you went into a bar and everybody smoked but you they should just go outside and smoked because you walked in?Isn't that like me going to someone's house and demanding they not smoke while I am there?If you are going to jump on the anit-msoking bandwagon at least have some common sense about it.
I lived through my ex-wife cooking...a little smoke won't do me in.

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Jeku
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 19:41 Edited at: 4th Jun 2007 19:42
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This is why I don't smoke:



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NanoGamez guy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 19:42
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Quote: "but it's not exactly poison gas"


It still kills you in the long term, anyway that's not the point I was trying to say.


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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 19:49
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Quote: "It still kills you in the long term"

That statement is so wrong. Not everyone who smokes will die from a smoking-related illness. Some people can live their whole lives smoking and die from something non-related.

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NanoGamez guy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 19:51
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Quote: "Then don't go to a bar. If someone goes into a bar and has a problem with other people smoking, then they are a complete wiener and shouldn't even be in there."

I wouldn't have a problem with them if it didn't harm he too.

Quote: "NanoGamez guy, who are you?"

A person with opinions, just like you.

Quote: "Isn't that like me going to someone's house and demanding they not smoke while I am there?"

No, because a bar is a public place.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 19:55
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The difference is, my opinions are rooted in practical experience.

Quote: "It still kills you in the long term, anyway that's not the point I was trying to say."

Band wagon-ists often make silly statements like this. Poison gas would kill you immediately. You can't possibly compare someone releasing poison gas to someone blowing out smoke.

Making such erroneous points invalidates any other valid points you might make. Think them through before you make them next time.


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NanoGamez guy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 19:57
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Quote: "Poison gas would kill you immediately. You can't possibly compare someone releasing poison gas to someone blowing out smoke"


You'r right, Smoking kills you much slower...


Nothing is impossible...
No really, it is.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 19:58
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Quote: "You'r right, Smoking kills you much slower..."

It depends how much kerosene is poured over you. But seriously, stop it with the "smoking kills everyone" statements.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 20:00
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Smoke really gets on my Asthma if it's thick enough. But it has to be quite thick. (eg. A poorly ventilated room packed with smokers.)


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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NanoGamez guy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 20:01
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sorry, I tend to exagurate a bit when I'm trying to get my point across.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 20:06 Edited at: 4th Jun 2007 20:08
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Quote: "sorry, I tend to exagurate a bit when I'm trying to get my point across."

Like I said, that invalidates your point entirely and hurts everyone else trying to support the same point.

Quote: "Smoke really gets on my Asthma if it's thick enough. But it has to be quite thick. (eg. A poorly ventilated room packed with smokers.)"

Don't come play poker with me.

What if someone came to play and demanded that everyone quit smoking? How lame would that be?


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 20:10
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If it was going to really affect them, then I understand. But if all it is is a little discomfort to them, I would tell them to shut the hell up.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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David R
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 20:12 Edited at: 4th Jun 2007 20:20
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Quote: "That statement is so wrong. Not everyone who smokes will die from a smoking-related illness. Some people can live their whole lives smoking and die from something non-related."


Although I agree, that doesn't exactly make it any more healthy/'right'.

Quote: "Occasional second hand smoke is nothing, and people just like to stand on their poorly made soap boxes because they believe that they have a right to do so. Extended exposure to second hand smoke can hurt you, not some guy in a bar lighting one up while you choose to be in a place associated with smoking and drinking."


Drink driving could harm someone, but often it doesn't. This doesn't make it any more right - the point is it can and does harm people; why should anyone be exposed to this potential health risk at all?

You may say "but small exposure etc.". Well, I'm sure small exposure to radioactive isotopes won't instantly harm you, but that's also besides the point; because there is nothing managing your 'quota' of second-hand smoke - you don't know whether you've been exposed to too much, you don't know whether it harmed you. No-one should have to worry about their smoke intake in public, just because some fool has decided to light up.

EDIT:
Quote: "What if someone came to play and demanded that everyone quit smoking? How lame would that be?"

Yeah, I reckon that would be pretty lame - you wouldn't want to respect their life or health interests all, you'd just continue smoking. EDIT2: I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that you meant "quit" in the short term, as in the duration of the poker game.

I mean, it's great with the "I'm OK Jack" attitude, but I'm certain you would have a drastically different outlook on the issue if you were in fact affected by said second hand smoking (I'd be pretty pissed off if I developed, say, a lung ailment of some form from 2nd hand smoke)


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Fallout
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 21:20 Edited at: 4th Jun 2007 21:39
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Quote: "I totally feel insulted. brainwashed? i know when im in a cloud of fumes it isnt pleasant, i dont need a tv commercial (i dont even watch tv) to tell me that. f* you."


Isn't pleasant? Totally your call, but you were suggesting passive smoking poses risk to your health if you follow someone down the street who's smoking. It's even worse if you've come to the wrong conclusion all by yourself.

I second the points made about the demonisation of smokers. It's as bad as any other ill informed prejudice against a group of people. I have no problem with people hating the smell of smoke, or hating their clothes smelling of it. That's totally just, and I think a ban on smoking is pubs will improve all that and allow everyone to wear the same grubby clothes the next day without them stinking of smoke , but I'm sick of all this ill informed passive smoking is gonna kill me rubbish.

Passive smoking is bad for your health, but for 99.9% of people, the increase in risk of heart disease / lung cancer is tiny because their exposure is so low. The government facts and figures are nearing on propaganda with the way they take figures based on high exposure environments and suggest they apply to everyone. Absolute drivel.

The whole "it's still a risk, even if it's a slight one" can't be taken serious either. How many other things would you have to ban based on that? Definitely alcohol for starters. People routinely get beaten up at the weekend due to alcohol related violence. Ban peanuts! There's a risk someone who's allergic might accidental eat one during their next meal because some selfish sod on the other table ordered the peanut sunday and the chef accidental dropped a peanut into someone elses ice cream!

If you take away freedoms because they pose a slight risk to someone else, we wouldn't be doing anything. I would totally understand the argument if passive smoking was a substantial risk, but it isn't for most. There comes a point when you have to remove freedoms for the good of the majority, but we're not there with passive smoking. Alcohol is way way WAY ahead in terms of the misery it causes to indirect parties.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 21:56
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A compromise is in order really, people should be able to smoke outside, not out in the open and they can smoke in their own homes or car, no one is really going to be effected by it, I mean we have other things polluting the air worse than that and I don't see people going crazy over that, like exhaust fumes, I crosses the road earlier and choked on the smoke from a motorcycle that just went past...Not good for my lungs.

So lets ban and remove from viewers under 18:

Petrol Powered Vehicles
Factories
Fossil Fueled Powerstations
Toxic liquids
Furnices
Open Fires - black smoke isn't healthy for the lungs, yet people burn things in their garden and on fields and people choke on the carbon monoxide, imagine if you had too much carbon moxoide in your lungs, you'd choke to death - like people do in house fires)

Then people will say 'what about the economy' - smoking don't matter because it doesn't effect the econony - although there is a lot of tax from cigarettes.

I think with those around, make those stressed out addicted people light up a cigarette outside the pub with a couple of mates and talk about how their they'd love to smash their bosses' face in with a hot iron.

I've seen people isolated in a little corner together smoking outside, harming nobody - those really concerned can hold their breathe for the 5 seconds it takes to pass them...I think it works.

Why people really have problem with smokers is because society is becoming really healthy conscious and all of these factors mean they die young or of cancer, or makes them unattractive - yes passive smoking kills people, so do several other things, I'm sure far less people died in road accidents when we had a horse and a cart instead of cars, heck I'm sure people died much less when cars could only go up to 60MPH (When a local kid was crossing the road recently, he was hit by a guy going 70mph when over taking another guy and killed the guy...).

People die more from listening to Abba and we don't see them from taking them from the shelves.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 22:22 Edited at: 4th Jun 2007 22:25
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Quote: "If someone came into a bar and let out poison gas, what would you think of them?"
And if someone drives down the road poisoning me as I walk down the road? Whatever. My point isn't what I think of smokers, my point is the attitude people have towards smokers and how they should all give up smoking tomorrow, compared to drinkers, drug addicts, gamblers (don't think thats even considered a problem any more!!!) etc. They are all poor souls who have lost their way and require help and understanding, and time to recover. Because it is a disease. An illness. Blah blah blah. How the hell is it any different?

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 22:28
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Indeed, does a person with anger problems aA Suddenly stop and is completely calm and chilled or B. Take anger management therapy and gradually at their own pace get better.

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David R
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 22:31 Edited at: 4th Jun 2007 22:31
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Quote: "I second the points made about the demonisation of smokers. It's as bad as any other ill informed prejudice against a group of people. I have no problem with people hating the smell of smoke, or hating their clothes smelling of it. That's totally just, and I think a ban on smoking is pubs will improve all that and allow everyone to wear the same grubby clothes the next day without them stinking of smoke , but I'm sick of all this ill informed passive smoking is gonna kill me rubbish."


Yes Mr Scientist, clearly you're the one who knows about passive smoking, all of the below are wrong in their findings:

- The International Agency for Research on Cancer
- The World Health organization
- The United States Environmental Protection Agency
- The International Agency for Research on Cancer
- The (US) Center for Disease Control

Quote: "The whole "it's still a risk, even if it's a slight one" can't be taken serious either. How many other things would you have to ban based on that? Definitely alcohol for starters."


Umm... no. Smoking poses a risk to other people whether they like it or not. Alcohol doesn't instantly expose everyone around you to the same toxins.

Quote: "There's a risk someone who's allergic might accidental eat one during their next meal because some selfish sod on the other table ordered the peanut sunday and the chef accidental dropped a peanut into someone elses ice cream!"


Sure - if everyone was allergic to peanuts, I'm sure that would be the case. But toxins from 2nd hand smoke are harmful to everyone, not just select persons, so this example is somewhat irrelevant.

Fallout, your entire post just screams of "I'm a smoker and I'm trying to justify my habit". I'm probably wrong, but it just comes across that way


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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 22:31
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I agree that the information that is being fed to people about second hand smoke is very exagerated. People think they are going to die if they get one wiff of a cigarette. The long term effects can be argued forever.
The issue that I have has more to do with the short term effects. Cigarette smoke gives me an instant headache. I absolutely hate the smell. If someone wants to smell like an ashtray, that is their decision. I sure don't want to smell like one though. I think it is very selfish of people to think that is OK. Lets say I was addicted to Mexican food. You sure as hell wouldn't want to sit next to me (you can ask my wife ). To me the smell is just as disgusting. And at least my gas wouldn't get stuck in your clothing.

The law should not dictate if a restraunt, bar or pub is to be smoke free. It should be the owner's choice. They should post a sign outside to say if the place is smoke free or not. Smoking "sections" are pointless. They are usually right next to the non-smoking sections without any division. It does nothing to be in the non-smoking section if you are right next to the smoking section. If they are divided, then the restrooms are usualy over in the smoking section. You have to walk through the cloud of smoke to go to the bathroom.

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FredP
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 22:37
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Wasn't this thread originally about rating movies based on whether there is smoking in them or not...not a smoker/non smoker team deathmatch?
Obviously we all are not going to agree on this.

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MikeB
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 23:31
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Quote: "I wouldn't have a problem with them if it didn't harm he too."

It doesn't harm you that much...... something like 0.0001 percent of how much it harms THEM.

E.D.

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MikeB
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 23:37
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Quote: "Sounds like you've been brainwashed by the anti-smoking campaigns mate. Passive smoking isn't remotely as dangerous as they would have you believe."


Wow, I have to agree .

E.D.

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heartbone
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Posted: 4th Jun 2007 23:47
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Zotoaster, you are correct.



I'm unique, just like everybody else.
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Krilik
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Posted: 5th Jun 2007 00:14
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I don't understand how anyone can justify being angry at smokers when a car is more dangerous than inhaling second hand smoke. In the US there are about 200 million cars on the road, and about 45 million smokers. Now if you sit in a closed garage with a running car I'm pretty sure everyone knows you will die.

I want to know how long it would take for a person to die from second hand smoke in that kind of situation. Just to clarify the hazard compared to other things that actually are the cause of death. I mean you have a threat that is almost 5 times greater than second hand smoke, and who knows how much deadly, yet no one judges it.
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Code Dragon
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Posted: 5th Jun 2007 00:48 Edited at: 5th Jun 2007 01:26
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Secondhand smoke kills about 50,000 people each year, that's 139 people every day. 155,000 people die on the planet every day, so that's 0.01% of all deaths. That's doesn't sound like much, but it still kills. But smoking yourself kills more, so many people think it's just a 'might' but in reality it's a certainty, you will die from smoking if you do it enough times.

Smoking kills. You cannot deny it.

EDIT: (Well you can, but if that's how you think you'll probably end up dead.)

Quote: "Smoking "sections" are pointless. They are usually right next to the non-smoking sections without any division"


Exactly. The nonsmoking section is usually so crowded I sit in the smoking section anyway. I very rarely see someone smoking there, but that doesn't happen enough for me to die from secondhand smoke (about once every 2 years I find a smoker)

You never really know a person until you look at their google autocomplete entries.
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