Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / Where is microsoft and windows heading, and do you like it?

Author
Message
Keo C
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Aug 2007
Location: Somewhere between here and there.
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 05:04 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 05:04
Umm Aaron, I couldn't active my account.
Also, Ruby on rails can be used for the web.


Aaron Miller
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Feb 2006
Playing: osu!
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 05:06 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 05:07
Your account is activated.


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
Aex.Uni forums
Keo C
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Aug 2007
Location: Somewhere between here and there.
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 05:10
Thanks Aaron.


Aaron Miller
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Feb 2006
Playing: osu!
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 05:11
No problem.. No need to thank me, thank phpMyAdmin. Oh! And cookies.

Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
Aex.Uni forums
Keo C
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Aug 2007
Location: Somewhere between here and there.
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 05:13 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 05:14
Don't forget to start a thread about your uber-OS.
oh and thank you cookies


Aaron Miller
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Feb 2006
Playing: osu!
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 05:14
I'm not sure what you mean by that, do you want me to make a thread about it? <On my forums>


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
Aex.Uni forums
Keo C
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Aug 2007
Location: Somewhere between here and there.
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 05:20
I mean so we can share ideas, programs, ummmm like an OS WIP on your forum. Unless you want me too.


Aaron Miller
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Feb 2006
Playing: osu!
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 05:23 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 05:39
I made a thread for it. I'll add more information to it now though.

edit
If anyone wants to learn more about AUCOS, you can view the thread here


Cheers,

-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
Aex.Uni forums
Mr Z
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Oct 2007
Location:
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 07:58
Isnt it funny how an thread can turn out? Fascinating! Starts of as an thread about where windows and ms is heading, and now we talk about creating an new os. As I wrote, fascinating.

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
Dazzag
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Cyprus
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 09:40
Quote: "in a while it will eventually die"
Fair enough, and it might just happen. Just depends what "while" means. At the end of the day when it comes to numbers and money they totally and utterly dominate. They could spend untold more billions on new development if they seriously thought they were in trouble. Seriously, they would have to have complete and utter numpties in charge for a very very long time to completely kill them off.

Put it this way, would you bet your house on Windows or Linux being the major OS in a decade? It can happen obviously, but realistically? Telling you though, somehow put totally transparent 100% (speed and compatibility) Windows compatibility into Linux (I'm not talking Virtual machines or what Wine currently is) and things could get a whole lot more interesting.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Drew Cameron
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Jan 2004
Location: Scotland
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 13:49
I think we'll see OSX stuff get more market share with bad word of mouth for Vista.

Windows Good
- I'm used to it
- Standard so compatible with most stuff
- Minesweeper

Windows Bad
- Buggy
- Slower than it could be?
- Vista is gay

Check out the WIP boards for "Schmump Go-Karting" - screens & videos
Benjamin
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 14:30
Quote: "
- Vista is gay"

You caught it having sexual relations with Mr. Mac?

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 16:29 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 16:30
I wish that I could be 1/1,000,000th as successful as Microsoft. They're a smart company. Look at us - whether or not we like it they are running our computers. I've used Linux and it's nice, but it can't compare with Windows in terms of power or marketability.

If I was in charge of a company like Microsoft I'd try to make the company as big and powerful as possible. What else matters for a company? Who wouldn't? If you wouldn't then you're either lying or destined to be unsuccessful, take your pick.

Whatever the case, I don't understand Microsoft bashing. It just comes across as whining. If you hate it use a Mac, or Linux. There are options. If those don't do everything you want and you need Windows then bashing Microsoft is silly. You're essentially saying that since you gave up one OS because it couldn't do what you needed you hate the one that can. ????


Come see the WIP!
David R
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 18:00 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 18:01
Quote: "If you wouldn't then you're either lying or destined to be unsuccessful, take your pick."


Firstly, don't judge other people by your own standards. Secondly, I wouldn't - ok, it's nice to have cash or whatever. But M$ just seems to me like one giant bureaucratic juggernaut, which is very cold and corporate. Yeah, that attitude makes them money, but I don't think you could choose a more boring job if you tried.

Would you rather be making innovations elsewhere, or head of a massive corporate structure that is, yeah, successful, but scared of innovation, scared of its consumers, and blighted by what appears to be managerial bureaucracy? In my opinion, controlling a big company, or being part of one, seems incredibly dull. Big companies are scared of innovation - essentially the definition of M$.


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Mr Z
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Oct 2007
Location:
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 19:29
I agree with David R. And I wouln't make money at all cost. There are other things in life that are much, much more important. Like my girlfriends smile. I would give trillions of dollars to se it.

Besides, being successful is an relative thing. Because who is the most successful one? The unhappy and lonely billonare or the not too wealthy husband, who lives his life with an wife he loves, and with some nice children, and is very happy? Personally, I would go for the last one.

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
bitJericho
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 19:33
Quote: "Besides, being successful is an relative thing. Because who is the most successful one? The unhappy and lonely billonare or the not too wealthy husband, who lives his life with an wife he loves, and with some nice children, and is very happy? Personally, I would go for the last one."


I would personally go for the happy billionaire who lives his life with a wife he loves and some nice children, I'd be very happy.


The greatest multiplayer text adventure ever...
Mr Z
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Oct 2007
Location:
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 19:35
Yeah, that´s one too. But you get my point .

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
Diggsey
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Apr 2006
Location: On this web page.
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 19:37
The main thing I don't like about windows:
So... many... functions...
I mean, they invented OOP for a reason! Why don't they make windows use it, instead of having to mess about with all the functions that literally have just been added here and there to add functionality and end up making the whole lot a jumbled up piece of $H!1!!! Also, what's with the returning values through parameters??? There's a thing called a RETURN VALUE!

The main thing I don't like about linux:
It just feels so clumsy all the time. I mean the start button is huge, and all the fancy artwork just makes it seem so clumsy. It's like duplo compared to lego! Also, the lack of compatibility with windows meant that it wasn't particularly functional. (maybe not entirely the fault of linux).

How I feel about microsoft
They're a company, just like any other. You don't get 'evil' companies, only ones that have no face. You cannot accuse microsoft of having too high prices, etc. because microsoft choose the prices that bring them most money (not necessarily very high ones). The prices are always what people will pay, rather than what microsoft want them to pay (supply and demand). I do think that they have got a bit lost recently though. (I mean Vista??? XBox???) No doubt they will win with the XBox in the end, and eventually get people to move to vista, but only because they have virtually infinite funds to pump into the products!

bitJericho
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 19:48 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 19:49
Quote: "It just feels so clumsy all the time. I mean the start button is huge, and all the fancy artwork just makes it seem so clumsy. It's like duplo compared to lego!"


That's the best analogy I've ever heard.

I've been using ubuntu for about 2 weeks straight (no windows at all), and I'm *really* getting sick of all the little bugs. Games and programs that occasionally crash and hang the computer completely (seriously, that hasn't happened to me on windows since I don't know when, since I've been using Vista).

Weird crackling noises from my sound, wierd bugs with my toolbars, like when resolution changes the stuff on my toolbars move, but they don't move back when the resolution goes back to normal (after playing games). One game in particular that I've gotten addicted to, xmoto. Xmoto randomly changes to windowed from fullscreen and then back again, I haven't figured out why yet.

FireFox's text zooming renders extremely slow when changing the size.

And various other *little* bugs that I haven't had time to dig into and figure out how to fix, at least, for the ones that can be fixed. At least Windows is polished :/

Oh, and I found out midi doesn't work at all on my installation, again, haven't had time to figure out why.


The greatest multiplayer text adventure ever...
Mr Z
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Oct 2007
Location:
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 19:57
Lol, I have never had all those problems. And I've used ubuntu for some time now.

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
n008
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Apr 2007
Location: Chernarus
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 20:20
My Ubuntu runs just fine . No bugs or anything, more greased up then Windows IMNSHO to me. Maybe your computer stinks? Or you are doing something wrong.

Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 20:25
Quote: "M$ just seems to me like one giant bureaucratic juggernaut, which is very cold and corporate."

I've been saying it for years... someday we'll see M$, $tarbuck$, Wal-Mart, and Pfizer combine to form the most evil empire the world has ever known. They'll steal our children in the night and force them to mass produce Windows source code, Mocha Lattes, neon pink t-shirts, and happy pills for men. They'll control every facet of life, and we'll have to pay taxes to... uh... "Microwalpfizerbucks."

But seriously, I can't stand that corporate mentality, that you absolutely must turn a profit whatever the cost (so long as it's not financial cost), and that competition is a bad thing. There's a difference between aspiration and greed. I'd love to make a million dollars a year, but I would never hurt someone, even a rival, to obtain it. And you know what? I don't care to make a billion dollars. I simply don't have a need for it, and having that much money would complicate my life more than I'd care for. My point is, I don't need to obliterate the opposition to run a successful and profitable business, and that's a fact . And anyone who honestly believes you absolutely need to systematically destroy your competition to turn a profit doesn't know what they're talking about. Companies have existed for thousands of years, side-by-side and turning profit regularly, without decapitating their rivals. Of the companies named previously, M$ is the only one I don't boycott, and that's only because I love making games and Linux is confusing to me, lol. Sorry for the rant, sometimes I can't help myself.

bitJericho
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 20:26
Quote: "My Ubuntu runs just fine . No bugs or anything, more greased up then Windows IMNSHO to me. Maybe your computer stinks? Or you are doing something wrong."


Could be my specific hardware then, the computer itself runs just fine


The greatest multiplayer text adventure ever...
Mr Z
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Oct 2007
Location:
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 20:45 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 20:49
To be honest, sometimes my apps stop working, but its not that often. And beyond that I don't get an loading screen, just one black thing. However, since I believe others don't have the same problem (at last I haven't read of any other, except for Jerico2day), I guess it's either me that have done something wrong or my compter that isn't very good with ubuntu. But besides that, I have no problems at all.

EDIT:

And when it comes to me and money: I want so much money that I can live. Not too much, because then thing will be too easy. About 2000 or 3000 dollars an month world suffice. Because if things get too easy, life will just get boooooring. To me, anyway.

I belive that too much money harms your personal happiness.

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 21:02
Quote: "Like my girlfriends smile. I would give trillions of dollars to se it."

I rarely laugh out loud at things that I see on the internet, I'm sorry, but I really did LOLZZZ

Bill Gates found a good wife, I don't see him complaining.


Come see the WIP!
Mr Z
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Oct 2007
Location:
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 21:06
Ah, sorry, she smiles a lot. I don't complain, far from it, I love her and she loves me and we are very happy tougether. She makes me very happy. Sorry if you missunderstod. But my point stands: That her smile is priceless to me.

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
n008
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Apr 2007
Location: Chernarus
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 21:11 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 21:11
Quote: "...priceless to me."


Then why put "Trillions" on the price tag?

Mr Z
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Oct 2007
Location:
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 21:14
Well, some part of me said "would I really spent that much?", so "trillions" sounded reasonable. But now that I think about it, it's absolutly priceless.

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 21:32
Quote: "Big companies are scared of innovation - essentially the definition of M$."


Take a look at the Microsoft Research site and what they're doing, then tell me MS is scared of innovation

Quote: "My point is, I don't need to obliterate the opposition to run a successful and profitable business, and that's a fact"


Take a look at the top Fortune 500 companies and tell me they haven't tried or successfully taken over a lot of their competition. Let me know when MiSoft Studios turns into a million dollar corp

Antidote
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Mar 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 22:04
Quote: "There's a thing called a RETURN VALUE!
"


There is actually a very good reason for this. One function that utilizes returning values through parameters is in C# called tryParse(string, out result). It is a method in the int class and returns true or false based on whether or not the string is in integer format. The thing is you still want the int value so you use the out parameter to return it. Without returning values through parameters you would have to do this...



With out parameters it's as easy as...



David R
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 22:24 Edited at: 19th Nov 2007 22:24
Quote: "Take a look at the Microsoft Research site and what they're doing, then tell me MS is scared of innovation "


And have we seen any of their research as products...? Very little of it, if any. They're not scared of innovation as per se - I was wrong. They're afraid of selling innovation, because it's risky. And time and time again, it has been learnt that you need to take a big risk to get a big reward; and that's what I like about technology. You can discard the 'rules' and do it your own way, and that's what I find interesting. M$ is, in effect, the antithesis of my love for technology.


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Aaron Miller
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Feb 2006
Playing: osu!
Posted: 19th Nov 2007 23:51
Quote: "The main thing I don't like about windows:
So... many... functions...
I mean, they invented OOP for a reason! Why don't they make windows use it, instead of having to mess about with all the functions that literally have just been added here and there to add functionality and end up making the whole lot a jumbled up piece of $H!1!!! Also, what's with the returning values through parameters??? There's a thing called a RETURN VALUE!"

Wow. No offense but you have no idea how it's possible for an OS to crash, and I don't mean that to be offensive. Listen, if there was OOP everywhere then a crappily written 3rd party software could crash the ENTIRE OS with just one set to a value. The reason why they don't return values (Like strings) is because it's not the programmer that gets to handle the literal pointer, because that could screw over the entire OS just as OOP could. If it returned a duplicated pointer how would Windows know when the programmer was done with it? It wasn't until Windows XP that garbage collection was added to the OS, but the reason why Windows is as compatible across versions as it is (Ex, writing an XP app could work with 98), is because they kept the legacy functions in. Now it appears you'll be getting what you want (incompatibility with the exchange of NO legacy functions (Most likely, as stated only apps written for Windows Vienna will work, and not the legacy apps as those would be run in virtual machine)). I'm not saying this to be offensive or mean, but I'm just saying that unless you know why they have it in, don't say they shouldn't have it in.

Quote: "I've been saying it for years... someday we'll see M$, $tarbuck$, Wal-Mart, and Pfizer combine to form the most evil empire the world has ever known. They'll steal our children in the night and force them to mass produce Windows source code, Mocha Lattes, neon pink t-shirts, and happy pills for men. They'll control every facet of life, and we'll have to pay taxes to... uh... "Microwalpfizerbucks.""

It's really offensive to see someone think that a company is evil without knowing the people who work there. Would you say TGC is evil? They're startin' to get bigger, hell they have deals with nVidia who has deals with Microsoft. So now is TGC evil because it interacts and uses Microsoft software? Though I can understand your other points, and somewhat agree with them. But also think that there ARE people who work there, the company isn't one person. Plus in the case of Microsoft they DO donate money to other organizations and they DO have to pay for all of their expenses, such as employees, computers, etc.

Quote: "Take a look at the Microsoft Research site and what they're doing, then tell me MS is scared of innovation"

Agreed. They have inovated greatly. Especially since they're programs seem to be the cheapest versus other commercial solutions. They built for the PC not the Mac which (If I recall correctly) was pricier (And perhaps still is?) than the PC.

Quote: "And have we seen any of their research as products...?"

Well, hold on a second! .NET, Windows, Microsoft Visual products, and ADAPTING TECHNOLOGIES isn't innovation? .NET has been shown to run apps quicker than their non .NET counter parts. Windows IS innovation, it's called a CHEAP (To buy) GUI. Windows Vista being the exception, but then again look at how long it took and how many people were working on it! Of course it's not gonna be f***ing cheap. Microsoft Visual Basic, C++, etc, those are all good examples of innovation. The use of a continued IDE which allows you to visually develop applications. Now I don't know if it was the first of it's kind, but the fact that it's still there, and has been there EVEN IN DOS is quite amazing. Making an ENTIRE GUI LIBRARY for Visual Basic 1.0 in text mode DOS isn't innovation? Plus, people criticise Microsoft for "stealing" technologies and using it in their product. So basically I suppose that means that since Apple had the GUI "first" (Though it was really Xerox that Apple stole the GUI from), that Microsoft isn't allowed to have a GUI? Okay, so with that same thing in mind, since there was already a PC out, Apple stole the idea of the computer. Just because someone made it first doesn't mean others can't make things like it. If Microsoft sees a good idea, of f***ing course they're gonna use it! They'd be dumb not to. Look at it this way, it's the development of an idea of a feature put into practice, and all Microsoft has to do is implement that feature now that they see what it does.


TO ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS SOMETHING BAD TO SAY ABOUT ANY COMPANY
Use their f***ing product for more than 3 weeks, and watch updates. Alot of people are bad mouthing sony because of the PS3. Well you know what? You don't have to use it. Alot of people bad mouthing Vista because it's "buggy"? I find that ironic because a lot of people where just saying "Release it already!", so you all got what you wanted, what it was in it's form, bugs and all. I was hoping they'd take LONGER on it! You know why? Because, unlike most of the people I've seen, I like STABLE software. Also, I'd like to say judging software by it's beta without having tried the full release or because you have "teh ub3r 1337 OS alreadiez" is just stupid. A few weeks ago I didn't like Apple. Well you know what? That was hippocritical of me, and I learned that. So now I reserve judgement of them until I try their software and programs for a good lengthy time. Just as everyone else should for any company.


I said I wasn't going to respond to this, but I feel the need to respond to pure stupidity. "M$" isn't evil. They don't force you to use their software. You're damn well welcome to change it for another OS. Just because they're standard they're evil? That's like saying because C++ is standard in game development it's evil!



-naota

"I'd newbie slap here, but I've no idea how far I'd need slap before they'd come back with a clue." - VanB
Aex.Uni forums
Mr Z
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Oct 2007
Location:
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 00:27
I could think of an thousand replys to Aarons post, in an negative way to ms, but to be honest, I wont say more then that my personal issues with ms has to do with how they act and not with their products (I really like xp). Otherwise I would do an HUGE misstake, since I already, in the first post, have stated that I dont want this to become an bashing thread. And I stand by that. So stop shouting to each other and do one of two things. One, leave this thread. Two, behave and dont shout or bash. The point of this thread was to discuss the future of windows and ms, not why they suck or not.

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 01:03
Quote: "Take a look at the top Fortune 500 companies and tell me they haven't tried or successfully taken over a lot of their competition. Let me know when MiSoft Studios turns into a million dollar corp "

MISoft won't be a corporation for that very reason. I'm terrified of being partially bought out down the road, having to share our hard-earned profits with some massive corporate empire. And there's no way I'd let some suit tell me how to make our games, exchanging fun features for profitability. In fact, when friends and family give us money to fund our projects, they have to sign a contract that states they do not own our company in part or in full, and while they can offer opinions and insights to try and better our company, they have absolutely no say whatsoever in the day-to-day operations of the company. We're a partnership with two owners, and we'll stay that way forever (and hopefully this spring we'll be a legal, IRS- and local chamber- recognized company ). I don't even want to consider what it would be like to have some suit show up, who has no care in the world for how fun our games are, and tell me I need to fire some integral member of our dev team because they're costing us $3 more than they should .

Companies do exist, as sole proprietorships or parternships, that earn millions (even tens of millions) of dollars. Look at a number of legal firms, many of which are owned in partnerships and not corporations. I don't need to intentionally compete with the likes of EA, Ubi, or Nintendo to earn enough money to live comfortably and treat our employees as they truly deserve, with benefits and bonuses and all of that fun stuff. It'll be a much slower process than you'd get with a corporation, but we'll get there. I won't go into all of the reasons we're going to successful, it'll throw me well off topic lol, but everyone working with us understands the vision and is dedicated to the cause . I'll honestly be shocked and awed if we haven't broken the million-dollar mark, net, by 2010.

Also, I don't think all corporations are evil... just some of them. As I've said dozens of times in the past, there's a difference between greed and ambition. When a big company buys out a small company and the small company is cool with that, then I'm cool with it too. But when big companies do hostile takeovers, taking advantage of the good nature of some person or people or doing it solely to shut down competition, that's when I have a problem. Even Sony is guilty of doing that a number of times (before someone says something silly, lol). There's nothing wrong with making money, but there's certain things that simply don't mesh with my morals.

n008
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Apr 2007
Location: Chernarus
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 01:10
Quote: "MISoft won't be a corporation for that very reason."


No offense, but that is very stupid. If you aren't going to be Incorporated, then good luck handling any kind of lawsuit.

Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 01:16
I highly doubt anyone would ever sue us (why would they?), and if they did, lawyers and insurance exist to protect you from that .

n008
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Apr 2007
Location: Chernarus
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 01:20 Edited at: 20th Nov 2007 01:21
And that... That is the reason 99% of companies PHAIL in the first year .

"Well, why would someone sue us?" -- Think like this:

You make games, right? Well, if your game gives someone a seizure, and they die, who gets sued? You do. Directly. Because there are only two people, you both get full blast of it. In a corporation, usually in small ones, there are three owners to offset the share. (One owns 30%, one owns 30%, and one owns 40%, or something like that) It works with two people as well. (55-45), i can't remember exactly, all i know is that based on the way the taxes are Weighted, it is very hard to sue a Corporation.

bitJericho
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 01:28 Edited at: 20th Nov 2007 01:31
Quote: "No offense, but that is very stupid. If you aren't going to be Incorporated, then good luck handling any kind of lawsuit."


Not necessarily, I know in my state we can form Limited Liability Partnerships, which is very similar to a corporation in terms of liability but it remains a partnership.

There are also several other ways to protect yourself, but I'm no business expert.

My question is, what happens if your partner sells out to a large corporation

Hopefully you got something in your contract protecting you from that ^.^


The greatest multiplayer text adventure ever...
n008
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Apr 2007
Location: Chernarus
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 01:30
Which is another reason to Incorporate

bitJericho
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 01:32
I don't think you realize how much it costs to incorporate. And, for the reasons Matt listed, it's not always a good idea. Of course, you could be exclusive owners in the stock, but still, it's pricey.


The greatest multiplayer text adventure ever...
n008
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 18th Apr 2007
Location: Chernarus
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 01:52
Actually i do. My parents have a corporation, and it isn't killer. If you go for A Limited, then that's where you have to pay up.

Agent Dink
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Mar 2004
Location:
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 02:14
My dad has his own company. It's an LLC. He's pretty much protected from lawsuits and all other evil things like that. I'm not sure how it all works but he and his lawyer do and the company is pretty well protected now.

Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 02:17 Edited at: 20th Nov 2007 02:18
Quote: "i can't remember exactly, all i know is that based on the way the taxes are Weighted, it is very hard to sue a Corporation."

You're right about that... Here's the difference:
Sole Proprietorship or Partnership: the company and all of its assets and holdings are the property of the owner(s). The company's profits and losses are directly attributed to the owner(s).
Corporation: The company itself owns the assets and holdings. The stockholders manage the operations of the company through a sole leader or a committee of leaders. The profits and losses are directly attributed to the company itself.
Limited Liability Partnership: The assets and holdings belong to the owners, but the profits and losses are attributed to the company itself. This costs more in licensing fees but not dramatically.

I'm not entirely sure if when we register we'll become a normal partnership or a limited liability partnership. I think there's some weird rule about needing three partners in a limited liability company, not sure. We're not legally registered yet so we'll cross that bridge when we get to it in a few months.

EDIT: I forgot entirely about your dad, Dink! I should talk to him about this before we get registered

Quote: "My question is, what happens if your partner sells out to a large corporation"

That's another reason I'm terrified of becoming a corporation... really the main reason. I'd be a fool to try and predict what my personality will be like ten or fifteen years from now, or what Colin's would be like either. Heck, ten years ago when I was 17 I was a completely different person. Money changes people's outlooks dramatically, and as much as I'd like to think we're going to both be immune to that, there's no certainty in such assumptions. The now-me doesn't want the future-me to do something silly and sell out the company, lol. It wouldn't be fair to me if Colin did that, and it wouldn't be fair to Colin if I did that, so we agreed to be a partnership and have that be the end of the discussion, hehe.

And I really don't see people suing us. We'll need to actively avoid trouble is all. And if we get sued, we'll hire lawyers and defend ourselves just as a corporation would do. It's so far from my mind though, us getting sued that is... I can't see why anyone would want to sue us. We're a monsterous 800-lb gorilla by TGC standards (we're one of the biggest dev teams on TGC, I personally think that's pretty cool, hehe), but as far as the entire indie industry is concerned we're minute. Ninja Bee or Introversion could eat us whole in a single teaspoon and wouldn't even burp, lol. Our most successful game to date is Cheney Hunter with around 4300 downloads (in that regard we're puny in the TGC community ). So being sued isn't something I've spent much time worrying about. But now that it's been discussed, maybe I should spend some time thinking about it, before we release four new retail games in 2008 lol.

aluseus GOD
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Mar 2007
Location: I\'m here. Now I\'m there. I keep moving
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 02:20
Quote: " Isnt it funny how an thread can turn out? Fascinating! Starts of as an thread about where windows and ms is heading, and now we talk about creating an new os. As I wrote, fascinating."


Not nearly as arcane as the way my playstation 4 thread became a console war.

Your signature has been erased by a mod
bitJericho
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 02:25 Edited at: 20th Nov 2007 02:27
Quote: "I'm not entirely sure if when we register we'll become a normal partnership or a limited liability partnership. I think there's some weird rule about needing three partners in a limited liability company, not sure. We're not legally registered yet so we'll cross that bridge when we get to it in a few months."


An LLP is far safer, you're not personally liable. If you get sued for 500,000, you as a partnership will be personally responsible, (think lose your house, in debt the rest of your life).

As an LLP, you can only lose your company, not your shoes

I recommend forming an LLP as humanly fast as possible, especially if you're hiring out work to people! It's not expensive, and you can always incorporate or do whatever later.

Quote: "That's another reason I'm terrified of becoming a corporation... really the main reason. I'd be a fool to try and predict what my personality will be like ten or fifteen years from now, or what Colin's would be like either. Heck, ten years ago when I was 17 I was a completely different person. Money changes people's outlooks dramatically, and as much as I'd like to think we're going to both be immune to that, there's no certainty in such assumptions. The now-me doesn't want the future-me to do something silly and sell out the company, lol. It wouldn't be fair to me if Colin did that, and it wouldn't be fair to Colin if I did that, so we agreed to be a partnership and have that be the end of the discussion, hehe.
"


That's why you two should have a contract. Your contract should spell out that you will not sell out to someone else without the other's consent. That way, you can both agree to sell out if you want, or if the other one likes where he's at, the company stays as it is.

You can also set it up that if the one partner really doesn't want to do it, and that's the end of it, if you can't agree on anything the company gets dissolved instead of bought up.

If one of you should die (hopefully not!), you will need to have something in your contract, as his heir would then have ownership in your partnership! So they might sell you out! You should definitely get a lawyer to help you out with that. Also, they might ask for 50 percent of the companys assets!!

So you need to have something in your contract about if either dies, what happens to the company, and how do you pay off the other halfs net stake.

So get a lawyer, and have him form an LLP for you two with a contract you both can agree on, it's the only way to ensure the survival of your business should something happen.

Quote: "But now that it's been discussed, maybe I should spend some time thinking about it, before we release four new retail games in 2008 lol."


Don't worry about it until you sell something, once you sell something, talk to your lawyer about being prepared for lawsuits

Otherwise, simply being an LLP, you won't be caught off guard too badly if someone slaps you with a lawsuit.


The greatest multiplayer text adventure ever...
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 03:45
Quote: "I don't need to intentionally compete with the likes of EA, Ubi, or Nintendo to earn enough money to live comfortably and treat our employees as they truly deserve, with benefits and bonuses and all of that fun stuff."


There aren't any game companies out there that don't compete with everyone else. You're living in a fantasy world if you think you can live comfortably with benefits, bonuses, etc. and not compete "intentionally" with *any* other game company.

Honestly, come back here in 10 years and see how ridiculous you're sounding

Dazzag
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Cyprus
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 09:06
Quote: "I'm terrified of being partially bought out down the road, having to share our hard-earned profits with some massive corporate empire"
The MD of my old company started his first company with nothing really. In the end he sold us down the river to a company that mainly does nothing else but buy other companies (and then mostly destroy them). While the time in the original company was brilliant, and the closest I have seen to a family environment within a company, and the new company is as sterile and impersonal as a glass brick, with people having strokes and the like from the stress of biannual redundancies we have had for the last 6 years or so, the original MD is not exactly upset. Ok, so he has less friends now (still a director of the new company), but he also now has about £10m in the bank, several houses (left one empty for 2 years when he could have got about £4k a month in rent), a £100k car (spent an additional £20k to skip the queue) and I'm pretty sure a smile from his wife that would come close to matching that trillion dollar smile bandied about.

Basically sucks to be us. Doesn't suck to be the owner.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 11:48 Edited at: 20th Nov 2007 12:04
Not forming a corporation no practical reason is just purely silly. Forming a corporation with just a few owners doesn't mean you've sold it, it just means you've evenly divided the assets between partners. Then the partners are no longer legally liable for the company.

A partnership is a terrible idea. You are 100% liable for anything that happens in the company. If your partner runs someone over in a company vehicle (for example) and skips town, you owe 100% of every $ incurred. If someone slips in your building and injurs their back, guess what? 100%.

In a limited partnership you're still liable up to the amount that you invested in the company. That means that you don't have to pay your partner's debts, but you do have to pay all of your own. A limited parnership isn't very good, and a LLC isn't too much different.

If you have a corporation then you aren't liable at all. The company is liable. With some clever maneuvering you can come out rich, the company goes under, and you just create the same company with a different name. That's what lawyers are for.

You should definitely do what you like. If running a company is it, then good for you. If you don't run that company to make money then you won't. If you don't protect your company then you'll go under.

If you sell part of your company off in the future for investment capital, what's the big deal? You'll have capital to make truly incredible games that you couldn't have otherwise. If someone buys you out completely then you get rich and you can create another company. Call it 'MeSoft' or whatever pleases you.


Come see the WIP!
Raven
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 20th Nov 2007 12:39
Well that's not quite true Curtis.

I could spend hours writing out a very length explaination to it all, as I've actually been in the position of being closed due to bankrupcy (which ended up not happening thanks to talking it through with the IRS)

Essentically it breaks down to this:

Solo Trader: Full Responsibilty for all Debts. The only restriction if closure happens due to bankrupcy is that the owner may not own (in any form) another company until that debt is settled.

Limited Liability: All owners (minimum of 2 required) responsible up to the amount of money they invest, up to 50,000 units. As this is the maximum number of shares they may have.
Base amount for each share is $/£/€ 1.00, no one is responsible above this amount and debts are wiped clean past that.
You do however get a ban usually 2-6years from ownership of another company (all owners do) if it has to declare bankrupcy that is greater than what it can pay off using the shares.
Most companies are instated with the basic 2 individuals, with 100 Shares; purchase of additional shares is done through the governmental entity that incorporates companies (here in the UK is Company House). Further more, until your profits hit 50,000 then any debt from bankrupcy is automatically wiped clean.

Basically speaking you must be successful enough to be eligable to pay taxes before you're accountable for debt. As such it is very rare for any Limited Company to actually cause any financial trouble if it goes under, unless another law was broken such as Tax Evasion.

Coporation: Shares are resold to cover the debt after closure, if this covers with money to spare then shareholders will recieve their share of what is left. Ownership Shareholders however are fully responsible for any additional debt left over.

There are no restrictions on ownership of new or additional businesses. Also any debts of the parent company are also shared amongst the child companies. Basically if one goes down they all will unless debts can be recovered, it is quite a normal practise for a parent corporation in trouble to close or sell a child corporation in order to cover debts to remain trading.

Both Limited and Corporate models are very good for different situations, and really have some very good laws to prevent anyone from being seriously affected post-bankrupcy.

Yes, you will loose the money you put in.. but you won't be any worse off really. This is why they're such great business models.
If you wish to maintain control, then a Limited company is best as the Owners decide who receives shares.
Share ownership in Limited companies does not equate to ownership, that is merely the possible investment that can be put in to basically secure against potencial debts.

Share ownership in a Corporation however is a very different matter, as whoever owns the most shares has the largest voting potencial.
You voting potencial on what happens within the company is directly propotional to the number of shares you own, so while every share holder has a say... those who have the most shares have the biggest say.

This is a big deal as every corporate decision must be presented to the board and voted on. So the direction of the company really falls on the shoulders of the share holders.

Reason this is true though is because you can invest as much money as you can afford to. While for the company this equates to their spending power from the start and reserve funds during normal operation; the shareholders will expect a return else could pull out. Generally that means you must make sure profit return needs to atleast equal what the combined total of the share worth is.

The more profit you turn above the share value, that is then shared amongst the holders and raises the value of the shares.
In a similar fashion, if you turn below then it will decrease share value.

Hopefully most of you understand that.
A while back, I had actually thought of an interesting project.

It was a simple game of sorts, and the concept really could evolve to be something more real-world profitable. But the idea was this.

You had a program that allowed you to create using drag'n'drop interface for logic and simple resource building very basic games... like say Asteroids, or Space Invaders, etc.

Each player had a set amount of credits, which they could use to start up a company, invest and purchase these games/programs created. So in order to earn more, to either do bigger and better developments, you'd have to invest more.

Can't remember why I never really got past the concept stage, but always thought it would be an interesting experiment game. Especially as the participation unlike most games similar isn't you just invest and purchase for set amounts of return from ai controlled markets; but that the market was shaped by the very players themselves for the products available, and the potencial sales.

Might be an awesome tool to teach business really.

Matt Rock
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Mar 2005
Location: Binghamton NY USA
Posted: 21st Nov 2007 20:12
We're hoping to make money... I think that came out wrong. But it's fundamentally crucial that we never sacrifice fun factor for profitability. IE, we'd never cut a feature from one of our games to save money or time, we'd only cut that feature if it would increase the fun-factor of the game. There's no sense in making millions if we're not going to spend it, hehe.

As for competition, I just don't see us as all that competitive, probably because no one else is making games quite like ours. The two games we're primarily working on now, project's "Domesticated Ferret" and "Sewer Rat," are similar genre-wise to other games (DF is a "tycoon" style RTS game, and SR is an FPS) but if either of these games is generally viewed as anything less than revolutionary, I'd more than likely be forced to change my underpants .

But like I said before... money changes everything. Maybe after we earn a million dollars we'll outgrow the limited liability ownership layout, or we'll decide to start going for the jugular of the mainstream in intention rather than concept. As it stands, we'll just work toward releasing more games and building our little cult following into a big one hehe.

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-19 15:40:06
Your offset time is: 2024-11-19 15:40:06