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Geek Culture / Where is microsoft and windows heading, and do you like it?

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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 21:29
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Quote: "but if either of these games is generally viewed as anything less than revolutionary, I'd more than likely be forced to change my underpants"


You sure know how to make big claims--- I'm still waiting for your revolutionary FPS from a few years ago that was going to change the game industry forever. That was nearly an identical quote by the way If you keep up these lofty statements I am going to start asking for proof

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Diggsey
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 22:41 Edited at: 21st Nov 2007 22:44
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@Aaron
I'm not saying they should change the winapi now, I'm saying that they should have made it more flexible and able to be built upon in the first place. OOP has nothing to do with OS security, etc. (OOP != .net) OOP does exactly the same thing behind the scenes as it would otherwise. You can have unmanaged OOP Also, someone who is going to directly modify a pointer that could crash the operating system shouldn't really be programming in such a low level language. If you do not think that the windows api is bloated and ridiculously irregular, then you must be either mad, or work for microsoft With the return value, yes I agree that some functions need multiple return values, so it can be useful to return values through pointers, however, most functions return only one value and shouldn't need to use this. It also adds the complication of who is in charge of freeing the memory pointed to by the pointer.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 22:43
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What's odd about a domesticated ferret?


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 23:11 Edited at: 21st Nov 2007 23:16
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Well, both of them should have WIP threads in the next month or two, and they'll both be released next year (DF should be released in February if we don't run into any more development problems). I can't really go into specifics (as many/ most people know, MISoft is extremely secretive and the NDA is our favorite contract), but some of the stuff about Project Sewer Rat has already been said in various places around the web (well, on TGC or on our website). We're going to make it as realistic as possible (for instance, no HUD whatsoever, one-shot-kills, etc.), while at the same time extremely fun and with a moving, "emotional rollercoaster" of a story. The game will throw FPS traditions out the window. It won't be challenging because there's hordes of enemies to slay, or complicated puzzles to solve... and beyond that, I can't say anything more .

Might not sound very impressive yet, but I'll make you an exclusive offer Jeku (no, this isn't available to anyone else lol): If you personally don't think this is one of the most revolutionary FPS games you've ever seen when it's officially announced in a WIP thread a month or two from now, and if it's not on your personal top-ten list of the most anticipated TGC games as well (I'll settle for third place, behind Geisha House and Pirates of Port Royale), you can have one free copy of every game we release in 2008... sewer rat, domesticated ferret, Capital Punishment, and a fourth game that I'm not at liberty to say anything about yet (but it will most certainly be released in 2008). If I'm right and you think it's as revolutionary as an FPS game can get, all I want in return is for you to acknowledge that I was right for once, lol. Not in a unique thread like Bizar had me do (although free publicity can't be turned down, lol)... just in whatever thread we're communicating through at the time . I'm seriously that confident in how awesome Project Sewer Rat is going to be. I'd make the same offer for Domesticated Ferret, but with it's "tycoon" style gameplay I'm not sure most people will look beyond the face value and really examine the core gameplay features as much as I'm hoping they will in the demo.

The big FPS project you referenced will be finished someday... just not someday soon, lol. We simply don't have all of the resources we need to make it. It could theoretically be made in DBP, but not without a few more programmers, a ton of additional artists, and a few thousand dollars in dev tools (hardware and software), not to mention a ton of servers to host the game online, even with its streamlined packet design. Everyone has that one project that couldn't be finished, but someday we'll see it released. And I'll keep working toward seeing it made until it's done. Until then, you, me, and everyone else will need to keep waiting . You were 100% right though, that game was well over our heads. But we came away from that having learned a very valuable lesson, and since then we've been aiming at smaller titles until the day comes when we can afford to make it.

My philosophy: If it isn't worth dreaming about, it isn't worth doing at all. The word "impossible" isn't in my vocabulary (although I just used it, so technically I just lied there, lol). If we can't do something now, we'll do it in the future. I'm hard-headed when it comes to our projects... I refuse to accept defeat or give up on a project when the going gets tough, and that's why we've released three games and have made serious progress on four others that will be released, without question, in 2008. And anyone working with us at MISoft for more than a month or two more than likely shares that same trait. We're underdogs right now, but someday, and someday sooner than most people realize, MISoft will be the studio to emulate... and the studio to beat .

EDIT:
Quote: "What's odd about a domesticated ferret?"

Nothing really, all of our games have code names used in public discussion so people know we're actually doing stuff and not just sitting around. They're all based on rodents or other little furry creatures, so we end up with titles like Sewer Rat, Domesticated Ferret, Wild Ferret, Church Mouse, Field Mouse, etc.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 23:56
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Matt, you've got to be realistic about being competitive. You may not be directly competing with another product or company but you are definitely competing. You're competing against every other game in your price range. People only have so much money to spend on entertainment, and it basically comes down to a choice between a few different ones.

Quote: "But it's fundamentally crucial that we never sacrifice fun factor for profitability"


It's not like that at all! If you sacrifice fun that you probably won't make any money. All you have to do is engineer a project from the beginning to be marketable and appealing at first glance. From then on out it's all about adding fun and graphic appeal in a timely manner.

Eternal Equinox is a great game, lots of time and effort obviously went into it. I think that it's just not very marketable to the general public. Imagine this - what if you'd taken the story of EE and turned it into a graphic RPG? All of the same elements but packaged in a different manner. It would take a lot more work but it would appeal to a broader range of people.

Take Geisha House for example - the obvious sexual innuendo of the game really helps. I'm having a blast making the game too (not so much programming the damn thing though). I'm going to fill it full of inappropriate stuff that will make it past the censors but will be fully revealed once the game is released. Then I'll get tons of press and sell a load of them online. My evil plan doesn't require me to sacrifice anything except for decency and self restraint.

If I'd put the amount of time and money into an unmarketable game and wasn't able to sell any I wouldn't be able to continue making games. As it is, I've got publishers bugging me for a demo and slandering each other. They don't control a damned thing. All they see is an opportunity for them to make some money off of something that they didn't have to put a penny into. I maintain complete control, all I had to do to make this happen was start the game with the right vision. You have a team working with you, I think that it is certainly within your collective capabilities to make the game market work for you.


Come see the WIP!
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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 01:15
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You make some really great points Cash. With me, I've always been competitive in different ways. As members of our team will be quick to tell you, I always half-jokingly say that Project DM needs to sell at least 300,000 units in the first year, because "Mall Tycoon," which is far, far worse, sold that many in its lifespan... if they can do it, we definitely *have* to do it, lol. But that "lol" was only half-kidding. We've set a serious goal to beat Mall Tycoon in sales. It's virtually impossible, as self-published indie games rarely, if ever, break sales records, but I think it's always good/ wise to set high goals for yourself.

You said something there that really changed my outlook on sales:
Quote: "People only have so much money to spend on entertainment, and it basically comes down to a choice between a few different ones."

At the risk of sounding absolutely and completely amateur, I seriously never looked at sales that way. It made me think back to the team meeting we had before EE's release, where we discussed how we were pricing EE. We decided to price it like a paperback novel rather than a book, and that's how that game ended up with a $7.99 price tag. In retrospect it was a huge mistake to price it like that, and I think that was one of the biggest marketing flaws (of the many) that we suffered during that game's release (and to date, as the price hasn't changed yet). It wasn't priced competitively, but was instead priced how we thought it should be priced, and I honestly didn't see a problem with that until you made that comment. That's going to help quite a lot in future releases... maybe you should get a free game or two out of that, hehe.

Your point about EE is something we thought about in the past. Quite a few people who played the demo commented that they'd have paid for the game if it had graphics, so we're talking about possibly ending that trilogy with the third game being fully 3D... probably an FPS with light RPG elements (simplified stats and such to keep play focused on the story and not character stat development). EE2 is going to have images associated with each location and key events to break up the monotony of reading so many pages of text, and I want to work on cutting back on the amount of text used to describe situations as well. EE has 20+ hours of gameplay, but a number of people said they don't like reading one story for that length of time, and some people even said EE was too long (the Just Press Play review hinted at that as well, although we scored 10/10 for gameplay, which was cool). I'm not sure how that migration is going to work, or even if we won't just end the series in EE2 and be done with it, but migrating to 3D is definitely something we've been considering pretty heavily.

That's the thing about competition though, I don't want to think of our games as competing against the likes of Geisha House, or that our audiences are one and the same, even though it's true. That's my biggest flaw really, I'd rather see Geisha House and one of our games both do extremely well, and I refuse to think of Geisha House as competition. Heck, we'd even promote it on our website lol. That's why we have a team... they need to keep me in line, lol. But I don't see anything wrong with wanting the best for other projects while still promoting our own games and whatnot. Being competitive is something I need to work at, hehe.


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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 02:58
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Matt,

Quote: "But it's fundamentally crucial that we never sacrifice fun factor for profitability"


What you're just described is a hobby, not a business.


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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 05:55 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2007 05:57
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Quote: "But it's fundamentally crucial that we never sacrifice fun factor for profitability"


I have been involved in many commercial games where features were cut left and right (no I'm not naming names). Fun ones too, where I was thinking "Whhaaa------".

After thinking about it, I came to the awesome realization. If we would have stuck every single last thing in the game that we thought was fun--- I mean *everything*, we'd be working on the same game for over 10 years. It would get feature-heavy and the users would actually get distracted, *if* they lived long enough to play the game.

Sometimes you just have to draw the line in the sand and say everything on the other side goes in the sequel.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 06:13
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We're pretty good at limiting what goes into dev in the first place. Before we get started on a new game, a few of us sit down, put the tea on, and spend a full night (or longer if it's needed) working out what features will be in the game, based on whether or not we can actually complete them in a reasonable amount of time. That way when we get into the dev cycle, we know what exactly is staying in the game. If a feature is proving difficult, we push back the release, and I'd hate to admit it but that's happened on nearly every title in production right now, lol. With EE, we had to cut an area (99% of Raider's Ridge was cut and replaced with a sort of textual trailer for EE2, keeping with the story of course) because the game was taking several months longer than it was supposed to. But I think if we cut any additional features to meet our original deadline, it wouldn't have gone over nearly as well as it did (well, in terms of demo reception anyway). Capital Punishment was proving pretty difficult as well... it's more challenging to code a 2D fighting game with the features we wanted than anyone expected it to be, hehe.

Planning out the features from the start is vital, and if we didn't, we'd be making the same game for a decade, as Jeku pointed out (important to know if anyone following this thread hasn't made a game yet). But our policy of a relaxed (but not completely "lax") development schedule, with no crunch times or any of that, is working out extremely well for us so far. With two games under heavy development and two others being worked on when we have the time, you'd think we'd never get anything done, but the system is working out surprisingly well. And everyone on the team seems to really like the low-pressure work environment (if any of you MISoft team members are following this thread, please correct me if I'm wrong, hehe). I doubt this system would work if our team was bigger, though. With seventeen people and our current supervisory layout, it's relatively easy to keep everyone productive while still letting them do work on their free time. And of course it helps to find the right people. So long as everyone stays dedicated to the principals and the games, we should be able to keep this pace and still release four games (or maybe even more) in 2008. Sure, with seventeen people we should be able to release more than that, but eh, four games is more than enough I think. Again, we're all about quality over quantity. That's probably the best way to put it.


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Mr Z
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 13:13
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Quote: "But it's fundamentally crucial that we never sacrifice fun factor for profitability"


I like this way of thinking. But that´s me.

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 18:30
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(8:55:25 AM) Aaron: Quote: "OOP has nothing to do with OS security"
(8:55:39 AM) Aaron: If a pointer becomes invalid and the system uses it it could crash the entire system.
(8:55:43 AM) Aaron:
(8:57:03 AM) Aaron: Quote: "Also, someone who is going to directly modify a pointer that could crash the operating system shouldn't really be programming in such a low level language."
OOP isn't low level, it's a high level feature. C++ is a mid-high level language.
(9:02:54 AM) Aaron: brb
(9:13:13 AM) Diggory: OOP can be whatever level u want lol
(9:13:40 AM) Diggory: the level is basically the number of compilations you need
(9:14:13 AM) Diggory: for assembler it is 1, C++ 2, .net 3, etc.
(9:18:49 AM) Aaron: lol. Assembly isn't compiled. It's assembled.
(9:19:07 AM) Aaron: C, C++, Pascal, Fortran, and COBOL are high level.
(9:19:09 AM) Aaron: So is BASIC.
(9:19:25 AM) Aaron: OOP isn't built by the processor.
(9:19:29 AM) Aaron: Making OOP very high level.
(9:19:34 AM) Aaron: And slower than need be.
(9:20:08 AM) Aaron: If OOP was used then it'd be easier for idiots to make virii.
(9:21:01 AM) Aaron: Quote: "If you do not think that the windows api is bloated and ridiculously irregular, then you must be either mad, or work for microsoft"
(9:21:19 AM) Aaron: If you do then make apps for Linux or Mac. The smaller markets.
(9:22:23 AM) Aaron: Quote: "With the return value, yes I agree that some functions need multiple return values, so it can be useful to return values through pointers, however, most functions return only one value and shouldn't need to use this."
(9:22:59 AM) Aaron: a) Keep practice standard, there was no garbage collection originally and so windows would load up a pre-done value.
(9:23:28 AM) Aaron: b) If the value was returned then the pointer to it would be returned, and if the pointer becomes invalid then Windows could crash.
(9:23:37 AM) Aaron: The ENTIRE system.
(9:25:21 AM) Aaron: Quote: "It also adds the complication of who is in charge of freeing the memory pointed to by the pointer."
OH NO! You mean I gotta control my own pointers? OH GOD WHY!!!

Just incase anyone else wants to question my logic....

Cheers,

-naota

"I choose to believe, what I was programmed to believe!"
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Diggsey
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 18:58
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Make sure you include the rest

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David R
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 19:21 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2007 19:21
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Quote: "If you do not think that the windows api is bloated and ridiculously irregular, then you must be either mad, or work for microsoft"


Or realise that the win api was started in what... 92/93? It's old code. Yeah, new stuff is added, but you have to remember that the structure is now pretty dated; not to mention that it's simple and 'strange' to keep it fast (which would of been the main mandate when the win api started)


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n008
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 19:45
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Aron, i don't know what you are getting this from, but C, C++ are both mid-low level programming languages. OOP isn't on a level at all! It is a paradigm. It can be used in any language, just about.

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Antidote
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 04:55
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Yeah OOP is in low level languages like C(++) and also in very high level languages like python. Also C(++) are both low level languages. They're one step up from assembly, the code is compiled directly into assembly then assembled. You can even use the asm {} identifier to write assembly code. The fact that they are low level languages makes them ideal for interfacing with individual hardware components, hence, game programming in c++.

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Mr Z
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 15:51
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In my books at school C and C++ are high level languages. Plus that I once asked an teacher in low level programming why they used C and not C++, he answered that object orientation is not the most optimal way to code low level (C and C++ are high level languages, but you can code low level in them). Besides, Aaron is right when it comes to the fact that an processor cannot think OOP. It work its way through an set of intructions, yo put it easy. In order to make OOP work, the OOP code must be "translated" into "procedure like" machine code.

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 16:09
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What is considered low-level and high-level is subjective, there's no strict definition.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 17:03
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In OOP you give up a little bit of speed in return for a lot easier time programming and maintaining the code.

C++ is a high level language compared to ASM, BASIC is a high level language compared to c++.


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Libervurto
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 17:22 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2007 17:23
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I think some people on this forum have watched too many James Bond films
Bill Gates isn't Dr. Evil
He hasn't "crossed over too the dark side"
He's just making money, because that's what everyone is told they should do

My view of Microsoft (especially concerning Windows) is that they spend a lot more time making fancy brightly coloured packaging than they do on actually developing their software/hardware.

I've never used anything else, when I get a new computer I might try installing Linux
Is it free?

"You must be someone's friend to make comments about them." - MySpace lied.
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Keo C
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 17:31
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Quote: "Is it free?"

http://www.linux.org/
Jumping in the Linux world, eh? Yes it's free. Buy a book or learn a bunch of commands before you start using it full-time.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 17:43
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Quote: "Jumping in the Linux world, eh? Yes it's free. Buy a book or learn a bunch of commands before you start using it full-time."


Or if you're like my Uncle, jump into linux and bypass the windows world altogether (he's a computer newb).


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Keo C
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 17:44
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Quote: "Or if you're like my Uncle, jump into linux and bypass the windows world altogether"
If I did that I'd be soooo confused. I like to know things before hand.


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n008
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 18:28 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2007 18:29
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Quote: "What is considered low-level and high-level is subjective, there's no strict definition."


Not exactly. When comparing languages it is relative, yes, but there is a standard:



Just to give a general idea...

Oh, and i recommend http://www.ubuntu.org or http://www.archlinux.org for Linux newbies.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 18:30
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Quote: "but there is a stadard"

Says who?

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n008
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 18:34
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Says ISO .

No, but languages are considered to be Low, Middle, or High-level based on their abilities.

For example:

C is a middle-level language. All this means is that it combines the best elements of high-level languages and the control and flexibility of lower-level languages, such as assembly whilst bypassing the main problems of assembly and its related languages.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 18:37
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Quote: "Says ISO"

Link?

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n008
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 19:30
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Joke much? ISO is the standardization organization...

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Mr Z
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 19:31 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2007 19:33
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Lol. People just can´t stay to the subject. Anyway, it´s interesting to read.

OBese87,
I would recommend Ubuntu, if you are going to test linux. It´s even easy to use.
http://www.ubuntu.com/

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
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n008
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^^ I recommended Ubuntu also, lol.

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Keo C
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 19:42
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I recommend Sabayon Linux.


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bitJericho
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Thanks for the suggestions guys, I've already got Ubuntu running on his machine (and mine:o)) after recommendations from you all in previous threads


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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 20:00
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If you have the rest Diggsey, post it. Auto-logging was turned off in Pidgin.

OOP is high level when built into a programming language. IMO C++ is high level compared to C because C doesn't have OOP or function overloading (From my understanding). Any language is high level compared to ASM. There's no such thing as "mid-level" just as there's no such thing as "current-generation" consoles. Always "next-gen" with consoles as is always "high-level" with programming languages. That's just my opinion though, and opinions are never right or wrong, because they aren't facts.

The Windows API isn't bloated. That's an overstatement of one who doesn't understand why it's like that and why it's still like that. He brought up a good point about adding A and W to the end of command names but then again I thought it was almost always like that. I'm not sure, and I have no argument for it.

If Windows passes back a pointer to allocated text, then how would it know if the text was freed from the program? It's not Windows' responsibility to deal with another's pointer. Deal with it yourself. There are problems which could occur from passing back an internal pointer instead of copying the pointer to the program. If a problem could occur potentially making the system subject to easy crashing due to poorly coded software, then the likely thing is that a simple virus could be written by an idiot which would crash the system by invalidating a pointer.

True Windows could check the pointer, but if it had to check all it's pointers for being valid then how slow do you think it'd be? Look at your desktop. For every GUI element there are likely at least 5 pointers. 2 are for pointing to the next and previous item in a linked list. 1 for pointing to the window's parent, 1 more for the window's text. And finally one to tell the window's class. I could be wrong, but that's what seems likely. Now for ALL of these GUI elements to be checked, how much slower do you think Windows would be? You're all game developers I assume. You should ALL know about efficiency. Just because it's easier doesn't always mean it's better.


Cheers,

-naota

"I choose to believe, what I was programmed to believe!"
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n008
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 20:08
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Quote: "
OOP is high level when built into a programming language. IMO C++ is high level compared to C because C doesn't have OOP or function overloading (From my understanding). Any language is high level compared to ASM. There's no such thing as "mid-level" just as there's no such thing as "current-generation" consoles. Always "next-gen" with consoles as is always "high-level" with programming languages. That's just my opinion though, and opinions are never right or wrong, because they aren't facts."


Exactly. C++ is a higher-level language Compared to C and C--.

And how do you figure there is no Mid-level programming language?

You take all languages in use, lay them out High -> low, then find the middle!

Although i agree with you about Consoles always being Next-gen.

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ionstream
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 20:34
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Quote: "Joke much? ISO is the standardization organization.."


He knows that. He meant give a link to where you found this table of low to high level languages. At any rate, C/C++ certainly shouldn't be in the same list as Java since it compiles to bytecode. Java belongs with Python on some other list.

The windows API is fine. It's at least a whole lot better than the awkward way that X11 does things. The only complaint I have is the weirdities of COM programming.

Also the A and W thing is intended to be avoided by the programmer. For example, CreateWindow is actually a macro for either CreateWindowA or CreateWindowW, depending on the compiler settings. Unless your program alternates Unicode and ASCII, you should never have to call the function directly.

OOP wouldn't crash the OS. Maybe returning a character pointer would if the program decides to change the data, but the smart thing to do would be to return a string class that has the copy constructor set up well, like std::string.

Also, feel free to use the word "weirdities" at any time. Just send the royalties to me via PayPal ($1.25 per use).

That's not as bad as you think you said.
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n008
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 21:25
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Oh, well, I got it from McGraw Hill's C++: The Complete Reference, 4E

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hessiess
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 21:36 Edited at: 23rd Nov 2007 21:36
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if windows isn't bolted, why dus it run like a slug in comparison to *nix OS's?

and it needs reinstalling far to often

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 22:05
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Poorly coded 3rd party software.
People downloading/installing/uninstalling multiple apps.
People stupid enough to look at porn and get virii.

My first linux experience, right away, the OS was slower than my Windows. Can you explain that?


Cheers,

-naota

"I choose to believe, what I was programmed to believe!"
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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 22:13
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Quote: "My first linux experience, right away, the OS was slower than my Windows. Can you explain that?"


The GUI (gnome/kde/etc) has fairly high system requirements. You'll want to make sure (if you're using gnome at least) that you have the effects on, this way your graphics card renders the gui instead of your processor (just like windows).


The greatest multiplayer text adventure ever...
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ionstream
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 22:32
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Quote: "if windows isn't bolted, why dus it run like a slug in comparison to *nix OS's?

and it needs reinstalling far to often"


Hessiess, are you sure you're not just spouting the typical anti-windows arguments? Because on my computer KDE runs much slower than Windows, even on minimum quality. Gnome runs about the same. Windows does not ever need to be reinstalled unless you treat it like crud, and you have to do a LOT to warrant reinstallation. I've had to reinstall Linux several times mainly becomes driver module errors made it unbootable. I've never had to reinstall Windows XP in the 4 years I've had it.

That's not as bad as you think you said.
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n008
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 22:33
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Quote: "People stupid enough to look at porn and get viruses."

Fixed

Quote: "My first linux experience, right away, the OS was slower than my Windows. Can you explain that?"

Yes: You don't know how to adjust GUI to your computer's specs. Were you using KDE or GNOME?

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Mr Z
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 01:14 Edited at: 24th Nov 2007 02:57
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Oh, please. Stop this war between OSes. People use that OS they like (well, at last feel secure with), and stop bashing each other for that. Windows have some advantages, and when it comes to linux, which dist? There are HUGE differencis between the different dists, and every one have their strong and bad sides. While some might be unstable (have only tested ubuntu), others can run for years 24/7 without restart. And to be honest: There exist no perfect OS. And there never will. Just let people have the one they like. And respect that.

And if I would take my personal experiance, out of my dual boot, this is how it looks:


Windows XP:

* Quite easy to install the OS, but could be better.

* Is easy to use. Almost everyone knows how it works in it´s foundation.

* Starts fairly fast.

* The login is slow (you get in but it takes time before you can use it when it´s not slow).

* Is is quite stable. Performs like it should, and works like it should.

* Games !

* Need to be defraged.

* Think it know better then me. Like when it wants to restart, and prompts me all the time about it .

* Needs to be restarted after any update.

* Decent apperance.

* Can be hard to modify, but changing themes that you have installed is an peaco of cake.

* Can be very secure (without third party firewalls and stuff).

* Wiered. The directory to C: or C:/Program (don´t remember which) is opened on startup (if anyone knows where I could correct this, don´t hesitate to help me).

* Easy to install things, but can be hard to find them (not the fault of the OS itself, actually).

* Have to install many things, like an good word processor (MS Word, or Open Office etc).

* Ok, no on can windows have too few apps. There exist tones of them . Just that some of them, that should be free, costs...

* Can´t run linux apps.

* Command prompt is not as good as the terminal in ubuntu, but it does it´s job.

* Have one session type.


Ubuntu Gutsy Gibbon:

* When it comes to installing the OS, ubuntu rocks windows.

* Very easy to use, even though I´ve made some trips into system files and changed them (to make some things work, but that´s things you can live without).

* Slow start. And a wiered bug that takes away my bootscreen .

* Fast login.

* Stable. But my firefox hates youtube. But that´s just flash not being done in the right way for ubuntu.

* Too few games. Can´t make Enemy Territory for linux to work (which doesn´t have with the OS to do, rather then me propobly doing something wrong).

* No need to defrag .

* It steps out of my way. As an example, if it needs to be restarted, it tells me once and not all the time .

* In most cases you don´t need to restart after update (only kernel updates will do that).

* The standard theme is quite ugly , but not too ugly. But it´s very good for the eyes. Besides, all you have to do is to turn on compiz fusion and get eye candy that blows aero to hell .

* Easy to modify until it fits you. MUCH easyer then windows xp. You can even combine themes with ease.

* Secure even out of the box. On this point, it´s much better then xp (in out-of-the-box mode. As you all know, there exist many good antivirus, firewalls, antimalware etc for it).

* Some, not meny at all (can count them on one hand), annoying buggs. Gutsy Gibbon was an very experimental dist.

* Easy to install, easy to find. The package manager rocks!

* Open Office follows. As do many other free open source programs, so you have everything you need from the start, if you are just an regular user.

* Many programs, and no one that costs (that I´ve come across, anyway).

* Wine is good to have there.

* Believe it or not, but I like the terminal. Instead of getting "Go here, press this button, then close the window and go where and press this button, enter this in the popup and...", you just copy and paste one, two or three lines into the terminal, and woops, everything is solved.

* Can choose between several sessions. But don´t worry, there is an standard one, which is used unless you change.


Ubuntu Fiesty Fawn (the dist before Gutsy Gibbon, replaced it with Gutsy Gibbon):

* Just as gutsy gibbon but without the buggs, more stability and less user friendly. Note that it is very user friendly.

* Could not get compiz fusion to work .

Darknes, you haunt me. If I give in, I would be an monster beyond imagining. Light, you guide me. Thanks to you, I see past the nothingness. Life, I choose to live in the light.
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Mr Z
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 01:20
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Conclusion: Both OSes have good and bad sides. And none of them is perfect.

And ionstream, about not having to reinstall xp:
My girlfriend suddenly got some huge problems, and she had treated it just as usual. I, on the other hand, who have tampered a bit with my OS, didnt get that problem. I reinstalled because my computer had so much sh*t in it, it just had to be cleaned.

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
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Keo C
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 01:40
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If you want Compiz Fusion with the OS. Sabayon has it out-of the-box.


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Mr Z
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 01:48 Edited at: 24th Nov 2007 01:49
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Well, I got it now since I "upgraded" to Gutsy Gibbon (which also have it preinstalled out-of-the-box). But it does not work that well with my graphics card so I do not use it so often.

When your love leaves you, it hurt. But when she wants you back, when she reallize leaving you was an mistake, who am I not to take her back, if I still love her?
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Raven
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 02:41
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This is all retarded.
Linux lovers, take a look at MacOSX... why because that is the OS that Linux *should* be used for, you know why it isn't because no one can bloody agree on anything. With no central recognised authority it will never be as good.

MacOSX and Linux lovers, take a look at Windows. When was the last time you saw Microsoft update their Kernel in a version of Windows?
Never, you know why cause it's actually sodding stable. This component of Windows NEVER changes from day one.
The NT 6.0 Kernel in Vista has been designed to have the same shelf-life of NT 5.0, this is why the major version increase.

NT 5.0 is set to run for a decade before being retired. While Microsoft have already dropped support for x86 PC, it still powers the Xbox 360 which will continue to be supported and updated until 2012 (that is when Microsoft are planning to replace the 360)

It also happens to be the Kernel that Windows CE has been using since 3.0, and is still using in the recently released 6.0

Windows lovers, while you have compatibility look at MacOSX and AmigaOS; both can use ALL legacy programs perfectly. Alright not quickly, but perfectly. This is across several architecture types.

They all have their positives they all have their negatives, and all of them are completely user-relational as well.
Quite frankly arguing which is best, especially on a forum of a company who ONLY supports the Windows platform is retarded.

If you no longer use or like Windows, then piss off.
Cedega, Wine, and Darwine might emulate and wrap the Microsoft Libraries; but they'll never run as quick as the native versions without official implimentation. As no Linux or Macintosh developer will ever pay the Mircosoft License for these technologies (which btw Microsoft licenses their ENTIRE range source) you can forget about real support.

Sure, one program might work, but then other won't.
It's like Windows XP people believing they'll be able to use DirectX10, you're living in a sodding fantasy world! Without WDDM and DXGI built-in at the low-level you're not getting real support.

All these project going on right now to "provide DirectX10 in Windows XP" are really do is wrapping DirectX10 to DirectX9.
You know what Microsoft already did it, it's called DirectX9Ex; an extended version of DirectX9 that supports the aspects that DirectX10 adds.. but it still can't fully support everything because of fundimental changes.

These changes were as important as the changes in Vista itself.
Microsoft for almost 20years has been using the same design for their NT OS Kernel, an archaic design with simply patched 32bit & 64bit super-systems over the original 16bit.

These changes are fundimental to supporting new hardware so they don't have to rely on the poor design of the original 8086/8 processor spec. Something that has been holding their development back for atleast a decade.

It had to happen! The fact they left in legacy support for their old systems, rebuilding them from the ground up to not only be as compatible as they could make them with the new system while providing better security and performance... to me is truely mind-blowing and a testiment to them always thinking about their users first and foremost.

Everyone bitched when they had poor security due to their old technology, now they bitch about too much. I keep finding it funny really that no matter how much a company will try to please their end-users demands, they're never happy.

So ya know what get a sodding grip. Use the OS you prefer, but for gods sake; this is a forum for a product developed for Windows nothing else. Deal with it.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 02:50
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You nailed it on the head.

Quote: "Everyone bitched when they had poor security due to their old technology, now they bitch about too much. "


Totally nailed it, people just can't be happy.


The greatest multiplayer text adventure ever...
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Antidote
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 04:36
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Quote: "Slow start. And a wiered bug that takes away my bootscreen"


Many very easy fixes available. Check the ubuntu forums.

@Raven:
Quote: "Linux lovers, take a look at MacOSX... why because that is the OS that Linux *should* be used for"


Wrong, just wrong. Linux is about choice. The choice to have a pretty GUI like OSX, or the choice to go for a less intensive display for keeping an older machine alive. Will I use this computer as a server or make a real workstation out of it? Linux is for learning about kernel architecture, or development. OSX is about paying Steve Jobs for a while very stable and full featured operating system an, at times, limiting one. The problem with Linux isn't that there isn't one group of developers who all agree on one thing, it's that for the average user, it's still too sparadic and difficult to maintain.

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ionstream
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 06:58
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Quote: "The problem with Linux isn't that there isn't one group of developers who all agree on one thing"


That and every library out there is in version 0.09-alpha and made by some guy named Ivaan Scorfmleden down in Coldceszburg, and the last update was in 2003. Hallo I make Linux library please to make integral part of operating system. Too bad it segfaults when you try to punch in a negative number! And then you go to those Sourceforge Message boards and every thread has something like "Segfault with negative numbers" "HALP IT SEGFAULTS" "Crashes?" all with zero replies so then you google around for a replacement library and theres like 5 or 6, all hosted by the student website of some university, so the url is something like sc.usersite.wsc.edu/~scormle_ivaan/index.cgi so you know half the links are dead and when you finally get to the site its some crapply made thing you know he spent about 5 minutes in Notepad making but this time the last release is slightly newer, coming from February 2004 so you manage to download some release and go to the command line and it ./configure and it says Error: Library sfnig_perl not found, so you pray to sweet Shiva that your package manager has sfnig_perl but when it doesnt you have to find its obscure webpage or search Sourceforge and yet again you find sfnig_perl version 0.14 and download it and go to install, and it doesnt have a configure script so you run autogen.sh, and THEN configure, and THEN make but WAIT while you're making it gcc fails with "Error in sfnig_perl/src/plg/spung_u32.cpp: Line 342 Numbersys:ata is not a class or namespace name. 1 Error, 0 warnings, 0 complete builds and then by then you're so depressed that you couldnt even get the dependency to work and then break out the rope because theres no longer any point in living, the stupid thing just won't build

That's not as bad as you think you said.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 08:27
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He has a point.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
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Antidote
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Posted: 24th Nov 2007 14:47
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Quote: "That and every library out there is in version 0.09-alpha and made by some guy named Ivaan Scorfmleden down in Coldceszburg, and the last update was in 2003. Hallo I make Linux library please to make integral part of operating system. Too bad it segfaults when you try to punch in a negative number! And then you go to those Sourceforge Message boards and every thread has something like "Segfault with negative numbers" "HALP IT SEGFAULTS" "Crashes?" all with zero replies so then you google around for a replacement library and theres like 5 or 6, all hosted by the student website of some university, so the url is something like sc.usersite.wsc.edu/~scormle_ivaan/index.cgi so you know half the links are dead and when you finally get to the site its some crapply made thing you know he spent about 5 minutes in Notepad making but this time the last release is slightly newer, coming from February 2004 so you manage to download some release and go to the command line and it ./configure and it says Error: Library sfnig_perl not found, so you pray to sweet Shiva that your package manager has sfnig_perl but when it doesnt you have to find its obscure webpage or search Sourceforge and yet again you find sfnig_perl version 0.14 and download it and go to install, and it doesnt have a configure script so you run autogen.sh, and THEN configure, and THEN make but WAIT while you're making it gcc fails with "Error in sfnig_perl/src/plg/spung_u32.cpp: Line 342 Numbersys:ata is not a class or namespace name. 1 Error, 0 warnings, 0 complete builds and then by then you're so depressed that you couldnt even get the dependency to work and then break out the rope because theres no longer any point in living, the stupid thing just won't build"


Have you actually used Linux? Understand what you're talking about before you post stuff like this, you just look stupid.

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