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Geek Culture / Manhunt 2 to face court challenge

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Michael S
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2007 23:37
More like the government needs to back off and let parents do their jobs.



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Libervurto
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 00:28 Edited at: 24th Dec 2007 00:29
I can understand how a kid can see Jackie Chan (shows his age) run up a wall and try to imitate it, but I can't see how any normal child could watch someone get hacked to pieces and then run to the kitchen draw (to get a knife to hack someone to pieces, I don't know why he hacked them to pieces, perhaps they'll die! oh dear, it was going that way )

Quote: "More like the government needs to back off and let parents do their jobs. "

THEY TOOK ERR JAAABS! Sorry I just love that episode

Insanity Complex
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 00:32
Quote: "More like the government needs to back off and let parents do their jobs"


Throw in that the parents need to accept that responsibility, and you may have something there


Benjamin
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 06:44
Quote: "More like the government needs to back off and let parents do their jobs. "

And if the parents don't do their jobs, then what?

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dark coder
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 07:06
Quote: "And if the parents don't do their jobs, then what?"


Then welcome to 2007?

I agree with Jeku that games shouldn't be banned so long as they break no laws, the game is an 18 for a reason and if under 18s play it things like these law suits are just a joke as the developers have nothing to do with how kids get access to these games so banning it isn't the solution.

tha_rami
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 08:02
Quote: "It's wrong to ban this game, and it's wrong for retail stores to continue to sell M and AO games to minors."

Period.


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Jeku
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 09:32 Edited at: 24th Dec 2007 09:33
Thank you.

Hostel 2 has a scene where a virgin is hanged naked upside down while being slowly cut open, her blood dripping into a bathtub. She is being tortured against her will until she dies. This movie was shocking, but I'm 27 and over 18, so I chose to see it. This is the freedom I have as a citizen of this country. The theatre properly IDs people and doesn't let in those under 18. This should be no different for game stores when they sell Manhunt 2 to a consenting adult and not to a 13 year old kid.

Michael S
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 18:43
Quote: "Thank you.

Hostel 2 has a scene where a virgin is hanged naked upside down while being slowly cut open, her blood dripping into a bathtub. She is being tortured against her will until she dies. This movie was shocking, but I'm 27 and over 18, so I chose to see it. This is the freedom I have as a citizen of this country. The theatre properly IDs people and doesn't let in those under 18. This should be no different for game stores when they sell Manhunt 2 to a consenting adult and not to a 13 year old kid."

Yes but then theres the problem of the parents getting it and giving it to their 10 year old son/daughter.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 18:52
Quote: "Yes but then theres the problem of the parents getting it and giving it to their 10 year old son/daughter."


That's not a problem, that's a right.


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Jeku
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 19:59
Quote: "Yes but then theres the problem of the parents getting it and giving it to their 10 year old son/daughter."


But that problem exists for movies too, right? That problem has existed for decades. Video games, movies, CDs, etc.

Virtual X
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 21:23
Quote: "More like the government needs to back off and let parents do their jobs."


This is why the governments SHOULD intervene, most parents don't do their job properly! Ever been on a council estate? *ROFL*
Michael S
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 21:52 Edited at: 24th Dec 2007 21:52
Quote: "That's not a problem, that's a right"

Exactly but then its those same people who turn around and complain when there child punches another kid. Then they blame the games not themselves or the school.
So yes its a right and yes its good they we have that right but if your going to give your child an M rated game dont complain about it afterworlds.


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Insanity Complex
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 02:32
Quote: "This is why the governments SHOULD intervene, most parents don't do their job properly! Ever been on a council estate? *ROFL*"


Then take the kids away from the bad parents. Don't punish the whole because some people took on a responsibility they can't handle.


Keo C
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 02:33
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Then take the kids away from the bad parents. Don't punish the whole because some people took on a responsibility they can't handle."

Social services anyone?


Agent Dink
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 02:41
Quote: "Then take the kids away from the bad parents. Don't punish the whole because some people took on a responsibility they can't handle.""


Don't really think that's right either. Well, in some cases, yes it is. But this is again, an infringement on rights. I've read and seen cases where children have been taken away in completely unnecessary instances. Wrong. Dead wrong.

Michael S
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 02:42
Quote: "Don't really think that's right either. Well, in some cases, yes it is. But this is again, an infringement on rights. I've read and seen cases where children have been taken away in completely unnecessary instances. Wrong. Dead wrong."

What are you trying to tell us Dinky?


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 02:49
That taking children from their parents is dangerous territory. That under certain circumstances, is not ethical.

Doy.

dark coder
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 03:46
But banning games is OK just because of some bad parents? In that case why not ban drinks in the house, guns, porn, computers(can very easily be used to access material non suitable for minors), knives, cars etc because children in a house have access to all of these much like games and by the same token in bad hands can result in similar or worse results than by playing a game.

Michael S
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 04:26
The bottom line here is, be a responsible parent.


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 04:28
I don't know if you directed your last comment at me Dark Coder, but never have I said that banning anything was OK.

If we got technical and banned everything that might contribute to bad behavior, there wouldn't be many freedoms. It's simply called common sense. No one has it these days.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 04:41
If a parent buys a "naughty" game for their kid, but they deem their kid as mentally and emotionally stable enough to play said game, then there's absolutely nothing wrong (imo) with that kid playing said game. It won't have any negative effects on that kid in any way, and I defy someone to prove that wrong...

However, if the parent buys that kid a game, and that kid runs off to shoot up their school or whatever, that parent should be arrested or otherwise penalized for what they did. If they aren't smart enough to know that their kid is some deranged sociopath, they should pay the consequence.

Earlier today I had a conversation with someone slightly older than myself, in his forties, and this topic ironically came up. I was talking with someone else about San Andreas, explaining how to find the Jumbo Jet. This person (rather rudely) interupted, claiming he refused to buy games for his kid because, and I quote, "I don't want him stealing cars later in life." Not just GTA mind you, but ALL GAMES! So I argued my point, claiming the only way that would happen is if he didn't teach his kid any morality, and that denying his kid games because the media told him to is plain ignorant. I said that if he doesn't feel comfortable letting his kid play games like GTA, there's a million games out there designed for younger people. He then said, and I quote, "Well, it's the fault of the people who make the games. Maybe they should have some kind of rating system like the movies have." I tried to explain to him the existence of the ESRB, but he refused to believe that it existed simply because he hadn't heard of it.

The moral of the story: Some parents are absolute idiots brainwashed by the man

Keo C
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 05:05
That's sad considering I see ESRB ads in every Wal-mart.


bitJericho
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 05:09 Edited at: 25th Dec 2007 05:10
It's on the back of any game boxes too He obviously just never bothered to look cuz it never crossed his mind that he would want to buy games for his kid.

I say good, if he doesn't want his kids playing any games that's his right. His kids will prolly grow up smarter than a lot of us too! Unless he sits them in front of the tv instead

I say make em read, they can play games when they get older.

That said, the only reason I'd buy my kid games (unless he asked) is because I'd want to play them. I'm more of the type that would rather spend time with my children. If I didn't play games we'd prolly do something else equally as fun.


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sp3ng
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Posted: 5th Jan 2008 04:32
i have read another article on this topic (in a pc powerplay magazine) about (yet another) investigation into gamings benefits and risks

Quote: "the british government has launched what would be a landmark investigation of the possible risks to children from material on the internet and in video games. the independent Byron Review, named after it's lead researcher Dr Tanya Byron, has been formed with the aim of helping parents, government and society at large protect children from potentially harmful material"

(like we dont have this already!)
Quote: "the part of the investigation that will be of most interest to the games industry (and its critics even more so) it the review of evidence on the effects of "harmful or inappropriate material" in video games. most of the studies conducted on that issue so far have been highly contested, so a lot of people will be interested in Byrons report. The Review has launched an open call for evidence, and wants responses from those with knowledge of the games industry, as well as from parents and children"

(unless they have standards on the evidence, any old mum that is unhappy about their child playing games can say "he plays [violent game] and then he yells at me when i ask him to wash the dishes", it is good that they actually give the children and developers a fair say though)
Quote: "The Review comes at a time when the British classification board has upheld its ban of rockstar's manhunt 2 despite changes to the game that convinced America's ESRB to lower it's rating to M. whatever conclusions Dr. Byron presents at the end of the Review in march next year"
(2009 i think, cause the mag was published in 2007 but it was the january 2008 issue)
Quote: "her findings will be highly anticipated by many parties"


in my opinion, i agree with many of the others here on the fact that it is the parents that decide what games their kids play, not the government.

there was a similar situation going on with the dawn of heavy metal music (in the time of twisted sister and black sabbath, etc.) where Al Gores wife (forgot her name) launched a hearing to decide whether to place the censorship system on music. Dee Snider from twisted sister was invited to the hearing to represent the heavy metal industry Gores wife went on to talk about how one of TS's songs represented sadism and the like and Dee fought back saying that it was written as about one of the band members who had to have some surgery and that it can be interpreted many different ways and that its not his fault that "[al gores wife] has a dirty mind", so he pretty much wiped the floor with them but still the censorship system won.

the same situation can easily apply to games, if the people judging the game aren't gamers then how can they review it for classification in the context of how gamers think?


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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 5th Jan 2008 15:22
I suspect some of you forget how impressionable young children can be. I recall seeing a cartoon image in a kid's comic when I was about 5 year's old many moons ago. I was sickened by the image at the time and it continued to haunt me well into adult life. It just happened to be a particularly and unnecessarily graphic illustration of someone putting an axe into an animal's head - I forget the precise details but it was something like a rhino that was terrorising a village. This was in children's comic "annual" and was available for us kids to read at infants school.

I don't favour censorship but I do think people buying a game or video for themselves or as a gift for someone else have a right to know the general nature of scenes depicted. So it is important that any rating system is taken seriously.
tha_rami
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Posted: 5th Jan 2008 18:44
Totally agreed with Green Gandalf, but then again, he basically says its utter bullcrap and that the shops and buyers should face court instead of Rockstar.


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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 6th Jan 2008 23:48
Quote: "he basically says its utter bullcrap and that the shops and buyers should face court instead of Rockstar"


???
andrey d
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 00:17 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 00:23
Quote: "recent studies have shown that people aren't affected by video game violence or even movie violence."

There are equally as many to show that it does.

If someone thinks doing the things in this game is supposed to be fun, then they got problems. I really see no object in this game besides hate and killing. Now don't get me wrong, F.E.A.R. has plenty of hate and killing, but there's a whole plot behind it, and you're trying to get rid of the problem. Here, you are the problem. "It's time to take your life back," the game says. However, you know nothing about it, seems funny to me.

Quote: "They are admitting that the rating system doesn't work!"

Of course, if they can't buy it, they'll just download it.
Chenak
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 01:03 Edited at: 7th Jan 2008 01:04
Quote: "There are equally as many to show that it does."


Where? The only "proof" I've seen are from reviewers and people like Jake Thomson (note: please don't kill me for mentioning this name!) just saying it affects children that havent even looked at it. I'd really like to see something more offical.

And how can you prove it, just because some random looney blames his/her actions on a video game in order to get thrown in a much nicer mental hospital rather than a maximum security prison doesnt mean its because of a video game, or music, or movie or anything else. Anything can trigger it.

The game does have a story line if you actually play the game. You are a victim of an illegal experiment conducted by the government to create brutal assasins/soldiers or whatever, you have escaped and are being hunted down by criminals, soldiers and other assasins or whatever they call themselves who are trying to make sure you don't out their secret, in order to survive you resort to what they taught you to do, kill the hunters in the most brutal manner possible.

I got to the part where you have a flash back where you are taking part in an assasination mission, then you have to escape from the military. Then I got bored... but the story seems to be pretty good. It actually has one and its better than quite a few games out now. To say it has no story is crazy because its one of its stronger points. The reviewers that say it has no story are either lying or skipped all the cinematics.
tha_rami
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 02:15
That is not true. There are enough investigation that link media to violence in a more than obvious way. I don't think they're needed, it's normal reasoning that the more you get into contact with violence, the more 'normal' we find it. While anything can trigger a loony, there's no denying that acceptance of violence has increased as the media have started to use it more as a method to achieve means.

Now, Manhunt 2, in my opinion, is a good if not somewhat repetive game with a rather good story. It's nothing jaw-dropping, but it's quite well integrated. It does deserve an Adult Only rating, but not a ban.

The rating system works. Enforcement sucks, though. The excuse that people will just download it is the lamest excuse I've ever heard. Because people ignore the rules, should we drop them? It's the responsibility of the parents to monitor their childs' use of the computer and the internet.

I think problems will disappear as the 'old' generation disappears. As gaming and the internet are quite normal under the younger generation, and they're well aware of the pros and cons, they can inform and steer their children far better than the oldies.


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Chenak
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 02:42
Quote: "That is not true. There are enough investigation that link media to violence in a more than obvious way"


How did they prove it? I'm curious cause I can only find random statistics from various studies rather than how they actually found it out.

I mean if someone sees something violent on TV or something then thinks "you know what, thats alright, I think I may become more violent in future" then surely theres something wrong with the person rather than the media itself?

I mean sure there's a link but does media actually make that person violent or is the person naturally violent and the media just kicked started something. The link could easily be a life related event instead, media is just more accessible in someways...
tha_rami
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 02:57
Why are you assuming that's an active thought or sudden change? Subconciously, our brains register what is happening on screen as real. Actually, we get tired from seeing people working out. It's called mirror neurons or something, I recall. For every violent act we see, we accept violence slightly more.

They prove things like that in lots of ways, just the same way as they disprove it. There's an undeniable link, and yes, while I do agree to really trip a person has to be insane up front, the general consensus as to how 'normal' violence is is definitely and clearly negatively affected by the media.


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Bizar Guy
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Posted: 7th Jan 2008 06:08
The connection between seeing violence and accepting violence is pretty obvious. The acception of violence infers an increased likelihood to act on that acceptance.

That however does not mean that someone will act in violence, it means when surrounded by violence, they'll be calmer. Also, violent thoughts will bother them less. When people become more violent from video games, where do they take that violence out?

Video Games. No duh.

Video Games solve their own problem. That's why gamers rarely if ever fight in reality. At least most gamers. That's also why no study could prove that video games cause violence. The only violence they cause is in the video game. Also, most people draw a distinct line between the gaming world and reality, the same way you draw a line between what you read and what you experience. The memories can get confused, but in the present it is astonishingly easy to determine what rules apply to what worlds. Rules are the basis for video games. That's the main appeal of cheating or finding a glitch.

So yes, video games cause violence. In video games. Can something horrific in a video game traumatise you? Hell yes, but that probably wont make you go gun down a 7/11.


oh and btw Google Ad, your sig is bigger than 600x120. You should fix that before a mod notices and gets erased by it.


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