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Geek Culture / DarkBASIC Pro vs. Leadwerks 2.0: WHO'S THE TOP DAWG???

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Chris Redfield 2008
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Posted: 30th Aug 2008 04:44
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yeah, what the title says. and another question, which is eaiser to use? or should i say, which is more for beginners or hobbyists? and how do they stack up in features aganst each other?

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geecee3
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Posted: 30th Aug 2008 06:55
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Leadwerks 2.0 is not a programming language per say from what I can see, it's a scriptable game engine that can be used with a number of other programming languages, it supports some very nice and advanced features, but then so does DBP as an easy to learn standalone programming language. Imho each app must be judged on its own merits and how it suits you as an end user, not by putting them up against each other for top dawg status, it dosn't work like that. Whatever your using is only as good as the best and most innovative things you can make with it, unless you have the skills to push each engine to its limits, the difference between them is of little relevance. Just accept the fact they both do a good job. DarkGDK is also an option if you dont mind a little c++, and for personal stuff you can get it free. so it costs nothing to learn.

Ohd Chinese Ploverb say : Wise Eskimo, not eat yerrow snow.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Aug 2008 11:58 Edited at: 30th Aug 2008 11:58
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Leadwerks from what I've looked at is a graphics and physics engine that comes with a level editor (well 2.1 comes with the sandbox level editor)

So all of Leadwerks' features are packed into a library, which can use with various programming language sure as C++ or Blitz Max in order to make life a lot easier on programmers (plus the graphics engine is quite powerful) and of course as Geecee said it's scriptable (I remember reading about scripting feature)

Dark Basic Pro on the other hand is a programming language based on basic which is like a wrapper for DirectX 9. So you can program games directly. And of course there's a strong DBP community here (Leadwerks' community is building over at the Leadwerks forum, however bear in mind Leadwerks isn't that old)


So Leadwerks will require knowledge of whatever programming language you wish to use - so if you down Visual C++ 2008 Express (which is free) then be sure you learn how it works (there's tonnes of tutorials on the net)

But DBP all comes in the same package (and you can get DLLs to add to its functionality)

I'd say both are easy (though I've not got Leadwerks, but I've been observing it from a distance). Though if I were you: Download Visual C++ 2008 Express from Microsoft's website, download the DirectX SDK and then download Dark GDK from this website (download links you can find on the main Dark GDK page) Dark GDK is basically Dark Basic Pro for C++ and it's free. So if you get confident with C++ you might decide Leadwerks is the better option (or even just stick with DarkGDK) - but if it is Dark GDK's commands you get along with and not so much C++ itself, then grab the DBP 30-day trial and if you like it, then buy it.

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Deathead
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Posted: 30th Aug 2008 13:47
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Chris Redfield 08 the one from Moon rising: Couldn't you have just posted this in the actual thread. Then Leadwerks could of told you.


"Your greatest teacher is your harshest critic"-Butterfingers
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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:33
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From what I understand Leadwerks is made in BlitzMax. DBP is slow - even if used properly (compared to others). Get BlitzMax for now (Or Nuclear Basic when it's out) and then just use one of the many 3D engines available for it. You can try out Leadwerks with BlitzMax for the BASIC side.

IMO Leadwerks is better than DBP but isn't the best. BlitzMax's language is faster than the DBP language and close to C/C++ in speed. Might as well get what made Leadwerks.

I prefer Nuclear Fusion though.

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Mahoney
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:36 Edited at: 31st Aug 2008 03:37
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Quote: "From what I understand Leadwerks is made in BlitzMax."


The Leadwerks scripting system is very similar to BlitzMax, but the engine can easily be used with other languages (I would recommend using C++ for speed).

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 03:49
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Umm, k. But I said I thought I heard Leadwerks (Their DLL that they distribute) was made in BlitzMax. Blitz is close to C++ in terms of speed. About 70~ times the speed of the DBP language last I heard (I didn't do that research myself, I only heard it else where).

Anyways, Leadwerks can be used with a lot of languages, yes. I just meant I thought it was made in BlitzMax.

Cheers,

-naota

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geecee3
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 23:41
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still stands though, its only as good as what you make with it, what you intend your prod to be for, how quickly you want to develop your prod, whether the resources you have at your disposal suit one language / engine more or the other, are your other tools going to fit in with the workflow etc. So better simply becomes subjective, its like asking whats the best computer language, well that depends on what it is your making and all the other considerations you have to make to suit your timescale, budget, tehnical requirements, programming skill level etc. a question with many bests from many differet people with nobody being right as a whole, but each being right from a subjective perspective.

pointless argument.

Ohd Chinese Ploverb say : Wise Eskimo, not eat yerrow snow.
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sprite
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Posted: 1st Sep 2008 17:43
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I went for darkbasic pro for the reason that forums where so active. My first try with games program lanuage was with SDL and when I had problems. I asked on the forums and they where not helpful at all. Here you can ask for help and you get it.

Choosing which lanuage to use is up to you but if I ever move to another lanuage for more speed or some other reason I would have darkbasic as a prototype/ idea tester.

I think a conpair of both at the moment is a bad idea. Darkbasic is a solid good program but has limits due more to its age. Remember its a few years old now.

leadworks is new but has areas that are still being worked on. However these will be sorted as time goes on.

The best idea is wait until darkbasic 10 comes out and then compair them.

I'll add something later on.
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Alucard94
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Posted: 1st Sep 2008 18:24
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Quote: "I went for darkbasic pro for the reason that forums where so active. My first try with games program lanuage was with SDL and when I had problems. I asked on the forums and they where not helpful at all. Here you can ask for help and you get it.
"

Tell that to the codezz guy


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General Reed
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Posted: 1st Sep 2008 21:12
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Leadwerks is alot better in my opinion, but then its a lot more expensive.

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The Fps Creator rocks!
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Posted: 28th Nov 2008 16:08
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Leadwerks 2.0! It is good because it can be used in different languages and darkbasic pro is slow! Anyways Leadwerks 2.0 graphics are waaaaaay better then darkbasic pro. Get Leadwerks 2.0 with C++ it is faster then if you have it with Blitzmax. But Leadwerks 2.0 need really good hardware.

The nVidia FX 5200 graphics card sucks!
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Van B
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Posted: 28th Nov 2008 17:30
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Blitzmax 70 times faster than DBPro? - I have a hard time believing that.

I can see Leadwerks appealing more to the high-end engine mod community, if you want to make any other type of game except an FPS, then DBPro is the weapon of choice.

It boils down to what you can do yourself at the end of the day, and if DBPro games are slow on your PC then the chances are that you have a slow PC!.


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General Reed
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Posted: 28th Nov 2008 17:36
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"It boils down to what you can do yourself at the end of the day, and if DBPro games are slow on your PC then the chances are that you have a slow PC!."
Yes DBPro games. But then again, DBPro games, are very primmative in comparison to those which are created in other engines, so its not really a fair test. Try creating somethign like Motor4Max, created in ogre 3d, but in DBPro, and it will run at a snails pace.

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BMacZero
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Posted: 28th Nov 2008 18:39
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[quote]Anyways Leadwerks 2.0 graphics are waaaaaay better then darkbasic pro[center]

You do realize that graphics have nothing to do with the engine itself? It all depends on the quality of the models you make to put into it.

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General Reed
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Posted: 28th Nov 2008 18:56
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A simple white box, looks a lot better with bloom applied to it, than just a white box.

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Frankie Pawnage5
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Posted: 28th Nov 2008 18:59
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Quote: "A simple white box, looks a lot better with bloom applied to it, than just a white box.
"

Oh, How true.

dude if you really want a turkey sandwich, then make one, and make ham.sdaF?
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Aertic
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Posted: 28th Nov 2008 19:05
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Quote: "A simple white box, looks a lot better with bloom applied to it, than just a white box."

If you're saying mirrors edge doesnt have textures then you're wrong...

Sorry... could'nt resist...
But yeah, you're right...


"Your greatest teacher is your harshest critic"-'Butterfingers'
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ionstream
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Posted: 28th Nov 2008 21:49
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Then get a bloom shader. Niether Leadwerks nor Darkbasic have graphics, the games you make with it do.

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Jeku
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Posted: 29th Nov 2008 19:47 Edited at: 29th Nov 2008 19:48
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Quote: "You do realize that graphics have nothing to do with the engine itself? It all depends on the quality of the models you make to put into it."


That could not be more untrue. If that was the case everyone in the game industry would not care about UE3.


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BMacZero
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Posted: 29th Nov 2008 22:25 Edited at: 29th Nov 2008 22:25
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Ok, I'll concede that, but graphics depend in very large part on what you put into the engine.

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Bozzy
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Posted: 30th Nov 2008 20:05 Edited at: 30th Nov 2008 20:06
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An engine is nothing without good quality models. Good quality models are nothing without an engine that can use them to their full potential.

Put good quality models into leadwerks and you have a perfect combination.

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General Reed
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Posted: 30th Nov 2008 20:20
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Its 50, 50. E.g, a plain with a parallax shader applied to it, looks a lot better than just a plain does it not?

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Bozzy
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Posted: 30th Nov 2008 20:42 Edited at: 30th Nov 2008 20:43
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Also, requirements must be taken into consideration.

Leadwerks 2.1 is a very capable engine, but requires a good quality computer to run it. For example, my two year old computer runs it at 12 FPS. Obviously, for the casual gamer, these requirements just aren't matchable.

DarkBASIC Professional will run on most computers, it just depends on how much extras you add onto it, such as shaders etc.

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BMacZero
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Posted: 30th Nov 2008 21:40 Edited at: 30th Nov 2008 21:41
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Quote: "a plain with a parallax shader applied to it, looks a lot better than just a plain does it not?"


People keep saying that, but it's irrelevant because any decent game engine can use shaders. (Both DBPro and Leadwerks can). Shaders are part of what you load into the engine and what you tell the engine to do.

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General Reed
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Posted: 30th Nov 2008 22:14
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Not with speed.

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ionstream
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Posted: 30th Nov 2008 22:39
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Shaders (DirectX and OpenGL shaders) are done on the card, so their speed will be the same no matter what engine the game is written on.

Quote: "Its 50, 50. E.g, a plain with a parallax shader applied to it, looks a lot better than just a plain does it not?"


I would say 90 percent of the graphics come from the content, not the engine. Someone would actually have to make the map for the parallax shader to use in this case anyways, and I guess it's nice that the engine has a shader like that built in but it should not be difficult to add the shader to an engine that does not include it (like Ogre).

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General Reed
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Posted: 30th Nov 2008 22:52 Edited at: 30th Nov 2008 22:54
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Well rendering complex scenes in DBPro at speed is an aboslubed nightmare, Therefore you can not create compelx art in the first place to use in the game because of ENGINE limitations.

And why do shaders seem to run so much slower on DBPro, than on ogre?

Basicly, Its no good having awesome high poly and high res art, if the engine is not capable of rendering it at a resonable speed. So in a way the engine is far more important than the art. Just like in a way a buildings foundations are more important than the building itself.

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AndrewT
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Posted: 30th Nov 2008 23:20
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Quote: "Basicly, Its no good having awesome high poly and high res art, if the engine is not capable of rendering it at a resonable speed. So in a way the engine is far more important than the art. Just like in a way a buildings foundations are more important than the building itself."


Yes, but how many indie coders around here have access to complex, high-poly art in the first place? Not many, I can tell you that much. Maybe you have a team of talented artists to produce detailed models and textures with hi-res parallax maps. But most of us don't. So, looking at it from this point of view, Leadwerks does not offer many, if any advantages over DBP.

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Alucard94
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Posted: 30th Nov 2008 23:24
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I thought this thread died like two months ago?


Alucard94, the member of the future of the past.
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General Reed
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Posted: 30th Nov 2008 23:45
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Quote: "Yes, but how many indie coders around here have access to complex, high-poly art in the first place? Not many, I can tell you that much. Maybe you have a team of talented artists to produce detailed models and textures with hi-res parallax maps. But most of us don't. So, looking at it from this point of view, Leadwerks does not offer many, if any advantages over DBP."

While i have some 3dsmax skills myself, i dont have a team whatsoever. But the scenes i try to render in DBPro (Complex indoor scene, Deferred, Softshadowing, Parallax, Normal, Fresnel water) renders at about 40FPS in DBPRo and about 100FPS in Ogre3D!

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Bozzy
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Posted: 30th Nov 2008 23:46
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Apparently not...

Anyway, one thing I will say that DarkBASIC Pro has over Leadwerks is all the 3rd Party DLLs. They have saved me so much time over the years I've been using them.

For example, DarkAI would have been perfect in a recent Leadwerks game, but I had to code it from scratch, which took a heck of a long time.

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code master
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Posted: 30th Nov 2008 23:52 Edited at: 30th Nov 2008 23:55
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Quote: "So in a way the engine is far more important than the art."


Naw.

They are of equal importance, if not art being slightly more so. With the skills and time, you can make almost any engine look beautiful. What does the end user see, the engine or the art?

Not to mention, you can't really take full advantage of the features of an engine without the skills to do so.

Yes, you can parallax map a plane... But It requires a map, which is art, like someone said...

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General Reed
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Yes but its no good if the engine wont suuport Parralax mapping

Its not just graphical stuff, Theres things like LOD, Cell loading etc etc.

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code master
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Posted: 1st Dec 2008 00:28
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I don't know what Cell loading is, but you can sure write LOD.

Does DBP NOT support Parralax Shading?

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General Reed
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Im simply trying to demonstrate the importance of a good quality engine. DBPro is for beginners, And so does not have some of the more advanced features. The Leadwerks demo looks better than ive ever seen in DBPro, Its not because the programmers here suck, its simply because leadwerks is a better engine.

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code master
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Posted: 1st Dec 2008 01:30
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Quote: "DBPro is for beginners,
"


Not really...


Quote: "because leadwerks is a better engine"


Don't judge a book by it's cover. I wouldn't say either is better, they're just better suited to different uses. What those uses are is up to us programmers to figure out.





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Jrock
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Posted: 1st Dec 2008 03:15
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Quote: "more advanced features."


Graphics are important, but how many typical PC-users can actually utilize the high-tech visuals that LE2 offers? Not many, unless you count hard-core gamers.

As code master said, each engine has its own purpose. DBPro can be relevant to more audiences, while LE2 can allow the programmer to push more pretty 3D-graphics onto the monitor.

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Satchmo
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Posted: 1st Dec 2008 03:44
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Quote: "Im simply trying to demonstrate the importance of a good quality engine. DBPro is for beginners, And so does not have some of the more advanced features. The Leadwerks demo looks better than ive ever seen in DBPro, Its not because the programmers here suck, its simply because leadwerks is a better engine."


Wow, some of those extra features would be so important.. for a commercial game development studio.

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Jeku
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Posted: 1st Dec 2008 08:08
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Quote: "And why do shaders seem to run so much slower on DBPro, than on ogre?"


Do I really have to tell you *again* that DBP is a 5-year old engine and Ogre is updated on a daily basis? Please stop comparing the two because it just makes you look like an idiot.

Feel free to compare once DBP X, or whatever it's called, is out. Then at least it's fair. You don't see anyone comparing a SNES to an N64 do you?


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General Reed
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Well ive not used leadwerks (yet) but im sure theres a switch, to turn off advanced techniques such as sunrays and the deferred shadow render, thus making it just as fast as DBPro on older machines.

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General Reed
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Posted: 1st Dec 2008 12:11 Edited at: 1st Dec 2008 12:15
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You cant simply say its unfair just because one engine is better than another! Ogre is just as old as DBP, but its been updated to keep with the current generation. Maybe TGC should do this being a COMMERCIAL product in all!

If i raced a ford mondeo against a pagani zonda F, Noone would say "Oh thats not fair", the fact is that the pagani zonda F is faster, end of story. The same goes for DBP and Ogre.

Edit: Sorry for the double post it was an accedent.

Edit: BTW Why is it alright to compare Leadwerks to DBP, and not Ogre to DBP? It just doesnt make any sence whatsoever.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 1st Dec 2008 12:35 Edited at: 1st Dec 2008 12:35
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The thing with Ogre is that it is open source and open to the community, they a number of volunteers can improve it. Plus it's just a library. DBP is a lot more than that, and being commercial it is restricted only to the employees, or most in particularly, Lee. To keep it up-to-date would require a lot of work, meaning less time spent on other things TGC are producing/have produced

TGC are updating DBP, just with a new version.


DBP's and Ogre's situation is simply different and the two engines exist in two different generations. Wait until they update.



As for Leadwerks vs DBP - I don't know the comparison, they're also 2 different engines from different times.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
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Van B
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Posted: 1st Dec 2008 12:42
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Your comparing a game programming language using DX to a game engine.

There's no correlation between the 2 except you've taken it as a handy argument aid in this case to prove some sort of imaginary point. If I raced a ford mondeo against the engine from a Pagani Zonda, then people would point and laugh and the Mondeo running rings around the Zondas incredibly fast but increasingly stationary engine. You need wheels, you need to be in control, and it needs to get you from A to Z. Most importantly you also need the skills to 'drive'.

Using C++ and Ogre is faster than DBPro, but that's really not a question we need answered is it? - pretty freakin obvious if you ask me.


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General Reed
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Posted: 1st Dec 2008 12:42 Edited at: 1st Dec 2008 12:49
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Yes i agree.

But, while the comparison may be "UnFair", It does not mean that DBPro is faster than ogre or leadwerks does it? That was all i was trying to say.

DBPro is good for starting up programming. 5 Years ago, i was like "OMG im never going to learn c++", then 2 years ago i got the knack of it. Guess what language i was using for the previous 3 years? DBPro, so its not bad for everything, its just not the best performance wise, end of story. Evolved did a great job with his new shader set, but leadwerks and ogre can do the same out of the box, and faster.

What we have to remember is that competition is not fair, There are simply facts. I.e. Ogre is faster than DBPro, and people cant simply dismis that because its true (Not sure if that made much sence).

EDIT: "There's no correlation between"
So theres no similarity between the two? Like for example they are both game engines! Come on of course theres a corrolation, dont be rediculous.

"Using C++ and Ogre is faster than DBPro, but that's really not a question we need answered is it? - pretty freakin obvious if you ask me."

I agree, but so many people deny it.

Anyway, Ogre and DBPro have the "Wheels etc" Ogre simply requires a more skilled "Driver". Infact, Ogre must have a better "Chassis" since it renders shaders faster, even tho its done mostly on the card.

In the end, it dosent matter whats being compared. The simple fact is that Ogre is faster and more up to date than DBPro, full stop.

CPU: AMD X2 6000+ 3.0ghz GFX: NVIDIA BFG Geforce 8800GTS 640MB OC-550mhz core RAM: 2048mb

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Van B
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Posted: 1st Dec 2008 13:36
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DBPro is not a game engine though, GDK is. It's a game creation language that wraps the DX game engine. The way I see it, when you can't use it outside of it's own environment then it's a language rather than an engine. The very nature of DBPro means that it will probably never be as fast as a C++ based engine, but my point is that for most people here, DBPro is plenty, and as a hobbyist language it's second to none.

Personally I'd probably only switch to C++ to develop for another platform besides the PC, like the DS - with the exception of GDK which might just be the best way for me to learn C++. It takes a lot of justification to switch to another language just because it's faster, the game development process and how it fits into your life has to be considered, and for me I get more done in DBPro in less time than I have in any other language I've used.
I think when you start off developing games, theres several enemies you have to defeat but the one enemy that DBPro is great at defeating is time. At the end of the day, even if you know your language inside and out, time is always the enemy.


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General Reed
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Posted: 1st Dec 2008 13:41
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I guess people need diffrent things. I want an engine which can render awesome looking scenes, at high speeds. DBPro simply does not deliver that for me.

CPU: AMD X2 6000+ 3.0ghz GFX: NVIDIA BFG Geforce 8800GTS 640MB OC-550mhz core RAM: 2048mb

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AndrewT
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Posted: 1st Dec 2008 17:15 Edited at: 1st Dec 2008 17:17
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Quote: "I want an engine which can render awesome looking scenes, at high speeds. DBPro simply does not deliver that for me."


Just out of curiosity, can you show me some examples of your so-called "awesome looking scenes"? I took a look at your screenshots on your website and saw nothing but fairly simple scenes with Bloom and HDR turned on high enough to burn my eyes out, and motion blur so heavy that I couldn't really tell what was going on. You seem to not understand that "awesome looking" means different things to different people. Maybe you think "awesome looking" means annoying special fx that distract players. But many people wouldn't agree with you. I personally don't like Bloom/HDR unless it's implemented perfectly (like in Oblivion). You can't just apply shaders to a scene and say it's "awesome looking".

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General Reed
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Posted: 1st Dec 2008 18:20 Edited at: 1st Dec 2008 18:28
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Yes that was in DBPro, and about 3 years ago. I dont have any ready screenshots, i stopped using dbpro 2 years ago, due to the limitations i found.

Edit: Heres an example of what i mean. A very simple scene, with a bloom shader, parallax shader, light shaft shader, no shadowing, 64polys, and runs at 68fps. Not very good imo.

CPU: AMD X2 6000+ 3.0ghz GFX: NVIDIA BFG Geforce 8800GTS 640MB OC-550mhz core RAM: 2048mb

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 1st Dec 2008 18:31
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I also believe that Bloom, Normal Mapping, Motion Blur etc are incredibly overused in some DBP games. Which makes them look a little tacky in my opinion.

The only thing I would like to see in DBP is a decent Soft Shadow shader and a SSAO shader.

I think the problem is people are trying to hard to make their game next gen. If they concentrated more on a specific art style, I think a DBP game can look pretty sweet.

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