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Geek Culture / Spore and SecuROM......

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19
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Joined: 26th Nov 2004
Location: Winnipeg,Canada
Posted: 5th Sep 2008 05:56
Quote: "Here's my take, how bout I buy the car and you leave me alone?
"


Somehow, I agree with that statement. Yes, I know companies must do everything and anything to try to stop piracy, but surely there must be a better way than this. And in the end, will it stop hackers? Of course not.

Benji
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 06:57
Quote: "Most game licenses don't allow that anyways. Technically you're not supposed to buy a game and install it on 3 computers. That argument is moot."



I believe buying any item should give me the right to share it within my family. Who do they expect will pay $50 twice for the same game, seeing that they already own it?

Seems ridiculous to me. I guess this is why consoles are the rage...

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Jeku
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 07:08
Quote: "First off, there isn't a shred of evidence that ALL the game does is check its legitimacy. Sure one can blindly take EA's word for it but why should I?"


Rofl. I suppose you are the type who doesn't let any software connect to the internet under any circumstances? Do you have any shreds of evidence that 100% of the software you run doesn't connect to the net and transfer funds from your bank account? There's this thing, see, called the law. Companies will get sued to high heaven if they transfer your bank details without your authorization and sell it to marketers. Don't be ignorant

Quote: "I believe buying any item should give me the right to share it within my family."


What we believe and what is reality often don't match. I agree with you in principle. However, when you buy a piece of software you are paying for its use on a single machine, not a single household. This is why you'd have to buy separate copies of XP for two computers, etc. etc.

Largely I enjoy playing devil's advocate in these types of arguments, because gamers seem to be more sensitive to copy protection than in other computer sectors. Don't you all remember DBP's hardware dongle they used to sell? 3DS Max used to require a dongle. I believe Windows called home as early as Win '95.


Benji
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 08:01
Quote: "This is why you'd have to buy separate copies of XP for two computers, etc. etc."


But isn't this just protection against piracy? Not because they are trying to avoid household sharing?

I can see where you're coming from, but I don't agree with it.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 08:05
Quote: "But isn't this just protection against piracy? Not because they are trying to avoid household sharing?

I can see where you're coming from, but I don't agree with it."


No, if you have two computers, you need two licenses. I don't get your analogy about games and sharing, when you're all using different computers. When I was growing up, we shared our games, not played in a corner by ourselves

OH GOD, I just whipped out the "When I was young" argument. I need to go play some more video games now before I really turn old.


It's not just for BYOND you know!
flickenmaste
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 08:12
Quote: "OH GOD, I just whipped out the "When I was young" argument. I need to go play some more video games now before I really turn old."


lawl...



yeah its kinda dumb why u cant share games around ur house anymore if its a pc game :-(


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bitJericho
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 08:16
No I mean, we sat together and played them

None of this, you play a copy over here and I play a copy over there...


It's not just for BYOND you know!
flickenmaste
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 08:20
Quote: "None of this, you play a copy over here and I play a copy over there..."


yeah I agree but now with so much computers connecting to the internet, people just play together online and not with other people.

Today its like..."hey wanna hang out" "yeah get online dude!" "mmkay talk to you on the game"


thus ending human interaction as we know it!


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Bizar Guy
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 09:41
Wait, so to understand... I can only install spore 3 times, or even move it to different computers 3 times? I was planning on installing it to an external, that's what I do with all my games. Would that work? I mean I plug it into multiple computers, though I only play the games on one. I could care less about needing Internet access, it seems like a game about sharing content should require internet access anyways. But only 3 installs? And Bioshock does this to? Because I ended up installing it to the same machine with pixel shader 2 twice for various reasons, and it's now installed. GAH, I hope this all works out alright.

Glad I saw this though, I was going to let some friends who were on the boarder with spore try it, now they'll just have to do it on my comp.

The Heavy
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 13:42
The SecureROM protection was useless anyway, the game was released on a multitude of usenets and torrents on the 2nd of september (Australia release date). The copy protection was emulated and all you had to do was not allow it to connect to the internet (block it with a firewall). Just goes to say that the most elaborate copy protection systems fail miserably when the pirates set themselves to it.

Who touched my gun?
Zappo
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 16:14 Edited at: 5th Sep 2008 16:23
Just because something had been cracked does not mean copy protecting it is pointless. The majority of home computer users don't know what a 'torrent' is let alone how to let them through their firewalls and yet wouldn't think twice about burning off a copy of the disk and writing down the pass key for friends. Most of us that do know what a torrent is would prefer to own software legitimately rather than steal it and risk huge fines or imprisonment (at least I hope so).

Consider this for a moment, you go to a privately owned shop or market stall and buy what you think is an original brand new game. Its got a professionally printed CD, inlay, cover and manual and it's shrinkwrapped. Wouldn't you like to know you were sold a dodgy copy by some con merchant for full price and none of the money actually went to the developers? At least with this type of copy protection they know they can't get away with selling copies to unsuspecting consumers.

As has been mentioned before, my only worry would be how long they keep the server up as I also like to play games which were released 10 years ago.

EDIT: On a slightly related note, I have just seen the EA press release for 'Spore Origins' out later this month for the iPhone and iPod Touch. It uses the built in accelerometer so you tilt the device to move around the world made from primordial ooze. Sounds cool... and sticky.


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Alucard94
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 16:20
Quote: "The SecureROM protection was useless anyway, the game was released on a multitude of usenets and torrents on the 2nd of september (Australia release date). The copy protection was emulated and all you had to do was not allow it to connect to the internet (block it with a firewall). Just goes to say that the most elaborate copy protection systems fail miserably when the pirates set themselves to it.
"


It just proves that people are geniuses (In my opinion, as I don't really know any of that stuff I find the people that do to be geniuses).


Jeku
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 16:42
@Bizar Guy - Bioshock's protection was completely removed with a patch. There was never a '3 install' system put in place for that.

Spore, on the other hand, gives you back an install when you uninstall it. Lame, I know, but you technically have more than 3 installs like any other game. The stupid thing is if you upgrade your computer it will recognize it as a different computer and you'll have to call in to allow it to install again.

I don't own Spore yet but I believe this is how it works. If anyone has the actual EULA and can give more detail that would be great. Looks like everyone here just has an idea what the rules are with no concrete facts.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 16:46
Quote: "
Consider this for a moment, you go to a privately owned shop or market stall and buy what you think is an original brand new game. Its got a professionally printed CD, inlay, cover and manual and it's shrinkwrapped. Wouldn't you like to know you were sold a dodgy copy by some con merchant for full price and none of the money actually went to the developers? At least with this type of copy protection they know they can't get away with selling copies to unsuspecting consumers."


I don't think people are suggesting no security, but it's a question of SecuRom. As what makes SecuRom more effient that other means of pirate protection? It appears to me (right or wrongly...it's just how it appears) that SecuRom hasn't done much for Spore, as Spore has pretty much got pirated on day 1. So what it looks like there really is no difference for the theiving pirates on bit torrent. And it appears to just give honest customers more room to complain. Now some say that the investors are kept happy with SecuRom, but what about it makes them happy? Is it because it gives the illusions of 'new innovative methods'? Or does it actually reduce piracy (increase profits?) in some way, even if pirated from the day of release?

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 16:52 Edited at: 5th Sep 2008 16:55
You've got to wonder; how far does it go? If I change my mouse, will it count as a different computer? If I use a different USB hub, will it invalidate my install? Armadillo Run has this problem for me; if I don't put everything in the right USB port, in the right order, it refuses to run because I "changed my computer configuration". If I change the screen resolution it reckons I've done something. Overclocking irritates it. I'm sick of it. So I had to crack that too. No copy protection is any good any more because there's enough intelligent pirates (or saviours of PC gaming in my opinion - without them, I couldn't play half of my collection) to crack even the most resilient and expensive of game breaking copy protection systems merely days after release.

I had a problem with Starforce, too; X2: The Threat installed the driver, and now I have two ghost disc drives on my desktop. Not to mention that half the time it doesn't find the disc. So the pirates had to step in again. Nothing more irritating than being a paying consumer and being kicked in the guts because someone decided to try and be clever.

I used to have problems with The Sims: Double Deluxe. Half the time it claimed my legitimate disc was not present. You can guess what had to happen.

As for viruses, the problem is blown out of proportion; just be careful.

Bizar Guy
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 17:00 Edited at: 5th Sep 2008 17:23
Quote: "@Bizar Guy - Bioshock's protection was completely removed with a patch. There was never a '3 install' system put in place for that."

That's good. Solves a couple of my problems right there.

Quote: "Spore, on the other hand, gives you back an install when you uninstall it. Lame, I know, but you technically have more than 3 installs like any other game. The stupid thing is if you upgrade your computer it will recognize it as a different computer and you'll have to call in to allow it to install again."

If that's how it it works then I'm not quite as worried. It'd be a choir to uninstall and reinstall with every new upgrade, but at least it will work more than 3 times.


Quote: "or saviours of PC gaming in my opinion "

I'm sorry, but you DO realize that pirates are the reason that these annoying protections are in place?? How are they saving PC gaming? By making developers and publishers see no benefit to a platform where much of their profit is lost to piracy?? While I wouldn't strike someone down for pirating games (at least the people I know, they usually do it to get games that are old enough that they're hard to find, or for games they once had), I will for someone who would say pirating is saving computer games, or would rather torrent a game than buy it. I never have to torrent games because the ones I'm sure I want I buy, or try from a friend first. Sometimes I rent it, and am saved a lot of trouble.

Edit: About the part of being able to play games you buy, I can understand that though. It is kind of ironic that the very reason protections are put in place is why people often have to torrent games or cracks for games they already bought. I'm not at all against that, though the major issue with torrenting is that many people will torrent the game instead of buying it. I rather not be able to torrent games at all than have people go out and steal the game.

Seriously, what real justification can you give for torrenting a game you could easily buy, and thus encourage developers t continue making games for the comp? And in Spores case, it seems pointless to torrent, as if you can't connect to the internet YOU LOSE THE WHOLE FILE SHARRING, which is much of the meat and bones of the game. I want to play Spore in a universe full of my friends creations, and the wacky creatures people around the world have made. How boring would that massive galaxy get if all you have is the base stuff that the maxis team was able to make. Even if they made thousands of things, people have made millions.

Grandma
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 17:41
Quote: "I'm sorry, but you DO realize that pirates are the reason that these annoying protections are in place??"

He was talking about crackers, not pirates. Though pirates often use the work of crackers, they aren't necessarily the same people. Crackers remove "limitations" so that they can backup their bought and paid for stuff, while pirates abuse it.

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Bizar Guy
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 17:47
ah. Ok, that's bit bit different, I think.

He did say pirates though, and I'm pretty sure they aren't saving computer games.

ionstream
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 20:54
Quote: "So the pirates had to step in again."


Pirates only goal is to get stuff for free. They don't "step in" when copy protection is annoying, they just crack it so that they can download and play it without paying a dime.

Jeku
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 21:01 Edited at: 5th Sep 2008 21:02
If the alternative is to remove all forms of copy protection 100%, the piracy rate would increase many times over. I know of a few friends who have asked my advice when they tried to copy a game they rented--- because it didn't work their first try they were too lazy to do more research or download a crack because of the chance of a virus. Copy protection removes a big chunk of the casual pirates who will just move onto the next game.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 21:13
Yes, but what are SecuRom's advantages over alternative methods of protection?

As far as I can see it didn't slow down the crackers and pirates on this game. It stops casual pirates, but didn't previous methods do that as well?

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
The Heavy
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 22:37
Quote: "Yes, but what are SecuRom's advantages over alternative methods of protection?"


Not much, I hope developers start to use only steam for their copy protection as that stops all 0 day piracy (the game being released cracked before it's for sale) and it's I've heard that it's harder to crack steam games but still not impossible.

Who touched my gun?
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 22:57
That might work - but not necessarily having to buy and download straight from steam (not everybody has a great connection) but perhaps a system similar or install to steam straight from disk. I know it'll kick out the "I don't like one-time activation" people, but I suppose it's a fair compromise if it's effective. Half Life 2 I don't need the disk and I can set it to offline mode and only needed to activate it once. I suppose, contrary to some of my previous arguments on steam and internet activation that system seems to be the best route (as long as there are patches availible for the games when they take the servers down).

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Van B
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 23:31
Does anyone know if you can install on 3 PC's and use them all at the same time?

Need to know if I should buy more than 1 copy :/


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Mnemonix
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Posted: 6th Sep 2008 00:50
I would like to point out that this game is awesome!


Nothing to say about the securRom stuff, it doesn't really bother me to be honest.

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Mahoney
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Posted: 6th Sep 2008 02:02
Quote: "Does anyone know if you can install on 3 PC's and use them all at the same time?

Need to know if I should buy more than 1 copy :/"


From what I can gather, no. Only one copy on one PC at a time. Sorry. :/

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Thraxas
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Posted: 6th Sep 2008 02:02 Edited at: 6th Sep 2008 02:06
Quote: "Does anyone know if you can install on 3 PC's and use them all at the same time?

Need to know if I should buy more than 1 copy :/"


If you want to play offline I can't see that it would be a problem... and if you created separate accounts to use the online features I imagine it would work (but not 100% certain)...

EDIT
Posted at the same time... I guess I was wrong about online(but I don't see why it wouldn't work), but if you're allowed 3 installs I see no reason why you couldn't use them offline just go online at different times to download other creations...
Mahoney
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Posted: 6th Sep 2008 02:10
Quote: "I guess I was wrong about online(but I don't see why it wouldn't work), but if you're allowed 3 installs I see no reason why you couldn't use them offline just go online at different times to download other creations... "


I believe that the three activation limit would keep you from using it simultaneously (switching between). I could be completely wrong, though. I just wouldn't bet on it working.

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Jeku
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Posted: 6th Sep 2008 02:11
Quote: "From what I can gather, no. Only one copy on one PC at a time. Sorry. :/"


Legally you're not supposed to do that anyways. Seeing as Spore will check out your system's specs before authorization, I highly doubt all 3 copies of the same game could be installed on 3 different computers, much less play at the same time.

Some people will probably just buy 1 copy then crack it to play on separate machines, but since the full Spore experience can only be enjoyed by hooking up to EA's servers, I'd say that tactic wouldn't work either.


bitJericho
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Posted: 6th Sep 2008 02:28 Edited at: 6th Sep 2008 02:31
Quote: "Posted at the same time... I guess I was wrong about online(but I don't see why it wouldn't work), but if you're allowed 3 installs I see no reason why you couldn't use them offline just go online at different times to download other creations..."


I doubt you'd have a problem going online if your key is valid. You'll probably be fine to crack the game if you own a valid key. This of course, is just speculation, with the assumption that ea only checks the cd key when sending downloadable content, and only de-authenticates the key on detection of multiple games on at the same time.


It's not just for BYOND you know!
tha_rami
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Posted: 6th Sep 2008 14:06
Quote: "If you think EA doesn't "care about the customer", don't buy the game. You are in the minority with your complaints, as they didn't remove the copy protection from Mass Effect. If enough customers vote with their wallets so to speak, they will have no choice but to ease up."

Once more, good to exclude North Africa in that equation. I've already seen bulk shipments of Mass Effect pirated copies sold for money there - really amusing honestly, as they go for about 4 dollars instead of 60 dollars. I expect no different from Spore.

There should be an 'emergency system' in place for if there is no internet for a while. Online banks here do it by sending a list of 30 codes if you don't have a mobile phone to text the code too for 30 days.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 6th Sep 2008 14:17
Yes, an option to apply for a month's internet-free play. An unautomated system. That's what this sort of thing needs. Good idea.

Van B
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Posted: 6th Sep 2008 14:22
Yeah, glad it's not a 360 game as I'll most likely need 3 copies .

It's ok though, I'll get my son and little brother a copy too, then they'll act as my slaves, maybe only until it's installed on their PC's though . If I don't get them copies then I'll never get on my PC ever again!.


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Alucard94
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Posted: 6th Sep 2008 17:05
I just got it the other day and wow, it's a great game, it can feel a bit rushed at times but from my standpoint it's a brilliant game. Well worth the money.


The Nerd
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 04:46 Edited at: 7th Sep 2008 04:46
Quote: "I just got it the other day and wow, it's a great game, it can feel a bit rushed at times but from my standpoint it's a brilliant game. Well worth the money."


What's your account name, I'll add you to my buddy list then. So I can destroy your creatures Just as Mnemonix creatures already have suffered ^^

Zaibatsu
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 06:16
Spore comes out tomorrow here... just waiting around.

The whole call home thing doesn't bother me as much as the 3 activation thing, since I've been thinking about upgrading me ram, video card, and getting a second dvd burner...

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 18:06
Just ordered Spore myself - managed to get 20% discount, so awesome - should come Friday and then I'll post my review of it for all the other peoples.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Grandma
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 18:18
Quote: "Just ordered Spore myself - managed to get 20% discount, so awesome - should come Friday and then I'll post my review of it for all the other peoples."

You really should stop threatening the poor salesman. Remember the last guy? Of course not, but you ought to send his family some form of apology for what happened.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 19:31
I wouldn't call it a threat - 'threats' have a sense of uncertainty, I prefer the term 'warning'. As for apologies, if he didn't like me, he'd quit, simple as that, yes he may have a family to feed, however, the fact he's still willing to feed them shows that I've not been tough enough, but just for you Grandma I'll send him and his family a basket of flowers, after all I know you only want me to apologise as a way of tormenting them.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Samoz83
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 19:49
Im disappointed with it, i thought it was going to be like the 2005 videos they showed but its been dumbed down loads.

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Lucifer
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 21:30 Edited at: 7th Sep 2008 21:31
Quote: "but its been dumbed down loads."


I've heard others say the same, complaining that it's too simple. And some even said they regret spending money on it. I'm going to wait a few days to see if this game is actually worth the ridiculous pricetag.

Looks funny..
Jeku
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Posted: 7th Sep 2008 21:35
Just hope over to Metacritic for a rating---



That's a pretty good score.

If you read the reviews it boils down to "Spore is a jack-of-all trades, master of none." It has 5 different game types, but doesn't do any of them spectacularly. Some of the reviewers say the exception is the Space phase which is really good.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 02:01
Tut, negative posts appear soon after I order mine. The game looks good, but as long as it delivers - I can deal with 'dumbed down' as long as it isn't tell me what to do constantly - in a tutorial level or mode yes (Like Black and White and Dawn of War and numerous other games have done) I'm going to enjoy the creativitiy of it, but not expect it to be hardcore - especially as I'll probably be playing it casually.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 04:13
Quote: "I'm going to wait a few days to see if this game is actually worth the ridiculous pricetag."

Umm... since when is $50 a rediculous pricetag??? Most PC games cost $50 when the come out.

Mahoney
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 04:17
Quote: "Umm... since when is $50 a rediculous pricetag??? Most PC games cost $50 when the come out."


It's $70 in the States, last I checked. That's fairly ridiculous depending upon your age.

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Lucifer
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 04:18
well, here in iceland it's about 80$$, so yeah, i think it's ridiculous.

Looks funny..
Bizar Guy
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 04:43
wow.

Jeff032
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Posted: 8th Sep 2008 05:33
I plan to buy this as soon as I can get to a mall. I was going to buy it online through EA, and then download it immediately, and then I found out about the EA Download Manager

Unless I pay them $6, I will not be able to download the game again after 6 months past my purchase date! If I pay the $6, they will allow me to download it until two years from my purchase date. After 6 months, or the extended two years, I would have to buy the entire game again!

Quote: "Think of this as your digital safety net for those unexpected occurrences - like your hard drive frying or a virus infection. EDS means that with the purchase of your digital product, we'll keep a copy of your file for two full years, so you don't have to. You'll gain peace of mind knowing that we have your program stored and ready for you to download again at your convenience.

A little extra protection on your order to keep your products safe? Why not!"


Disgusting.

Osiris
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Joined: 6th Aug 2004
Location: Robbinsdale, MN
Posted: 8th Sep 2008 06:28
Quote: "It's $70 in the States, last I checked. That's fairly ridiculous depending upon your age."


For the galactic edition...

Regular is still $50 where I am in the states...

RIP Max-Tuesday, November 2 2007
You will be dearly missed.
Seppuku Arts
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Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 8th Sep 2008 13:02
£24 I ordered mine for - RRP was £30, which isn't bad considering PS3 and Xbox 360 games are more expensive (heck Crysis and COD4 are still more expensive than that)


Quote: "Quote: "Think of this as your digital safety net for those unexpected occurrences - like your hard drive frying or a virus infection. EDS means that with the purchase of your digital product, we'll keep a copy of your file for two full years, so you don't have to. You'll gain peace of mind knowing that we have your program stored and ready for you to download again at your convenience.

A little extra protection on your order to keep your products safe? Why not!"

Disgusting."


Daz keep my copies of Hexagon 2 and Carrara 5 Pro ready for download...well...until they go out of business, same for Garage Games and my copy of Torque.

But some of these security measures I think are ridiculous: 3 upgrade license and for those purchasing online get a 2 year limit on their downloads. I think this may encourage pirating than stop it, I mean why buy it and have the restrictions when you can pirate it and not have any restrictions, the only thing you'd be doing is breaking the law, but for some people that don't matter.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!

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