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Geek Culture / The new "Issues with this forum" thread

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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 00:42 Edited at: 29th Sep 2009 00:43
That is silly Thraxas. I'm not the one who gets paid to work on those things. Plus the two popular forum solutions, vBulletin and PHPBB already do everything that I want (including everything listed in the original post), so coding something new seems a little over the top.

Quote: "Pressing F5 and having the forum page refresh is now suddenly TGC's fault?"

It is when the user does this to avoid using the default forum controls, as I stated.

And no Jeku, they aren't niceties. They're usability flaws. I'm also talking about things which are easy to fix, not complicated add ons to complicated 3d software which have nothing to do with usability.

Zeus
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 01:01
I agree everything with the first post, but what is complaining going to get us? A Facebook button? We should take charge, that's what they did for the music forum, so why wouldn't work in this case? I am for it.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 01:30 Edited at: 29th Sep 2009 01:37
Quote: "And no Jeku, they aren't niceties. They're usability flaws. "


Okay:

Quote: "1. Signatures are hard coded into forum posts"


Nicety. not a flaw, as stated some prefer to have old signatures appear in older posts - I have myself managed to retrieve URLs this way - I mean I forget the URL, but I remember the sig I clicked to go out on.

Quote: "2. There no pagination, just a dropdown of pages"


Pagination is another method, it doesn't mean 'dropdown' is a flaw. Both are functional. So again, nicety.

Quote: "4. Links are not automatically hyperlinked in posts"


Not a flaw. A nicety. A lot of forums I visit don't automatically hyperlink and I'm happy with it. It doesn't make the forum difficult to use, either way you need to get in the habit of using BBCode to format your posts anyway.

I find on some forums, a lack of use of BBCode tags or HTML tags is an easy way to notice if something might be spam.

Quote: "5. There is no preview post function"


A nicety. Not a flaw. Because it gives you an optional feature of proofreading your post. I try to do that before I hit submit. But I always miss something...even when having used a preview feature and have often gone back to edit regardless of the existence of a 'preview'. So for me, 'preview' does nothing extra - so it maybe 'nice' to have, but it's not a 'flaw' to be without one.

Quote: "6. No ability to sort table column headers"


I can see having one being an advantage, but not a necessity. So the lack of is not a flaw, but a nicety.

Quote: "7. The code tag is a joke. Plain and simple"


The code tag works like a text editor, even DBP has long strings; long strings are the fault of the coder and it'd appear them same. I see that as a good thing, I don't like it when code wraps. The lack of syntax highlighting, I don't think it'd do much for me, because A: my code snippet may be my own script, B: it may be not using DBP code but C++ (for Dark GDK) or C# or even LUA. To accommodate for the syntax highlighting of language people use would require a great list of options, like in SciTe, my opinion is that it'd be a cluttering feature: Code - selected from a nice long drop-down menu, paste code, end code. And perhaps, repeat.

I think all of those features aren't, again, a necessity, but a nicety. So they're not flaws.

Quote: "No auto-generation of thumbnails for uploaded images"


Can't say it makes much of a difference to me between this forum and a forum with them, in some forums the 'thumbnail' feature is pretty crappy and inefficient. I also may not wish my image to be thumbnailed, but shown directly. But it's not really a 'necessary' feature, it's not a problem causer and thus, it's a nicety.

Quote: "It makes no sense that you have to scroll up, highlight text, scroll down, then hit the quote button to quote something. It CERTAINLY isn't made clear anywhere in the interface that you can do this. You need to add a QUOTE button by each post that quotes the text AND shows the original author. "


Never had an issue with not knowing who the author is, because people tend to quote within context and I find it is actually easier to type: "Geoff: [insert quote]" because if I click 'quote' like on other forums, I have to snippet out everything I don't want. So I don't ever use 'quote' unless I want to quote the whole thing and on some forums this feature is actually abused, for example on a picture thread, people may not be bother to cull the image from their quote and if they're quoted somebody's comment on an image and using that to discuss, then it can get very cluttered.

Having one is nice and can be convenient, but not a necessary feature. So it's a nicety.


So not all are 'usability flaws', as a user I've not found them to be flawed and actually quite like the way the forums works, I'd find those features to be niceties that I wouldn't want and is a reason why I prefer Apollo over any other forum system.

The forum achieves the purpose it sets out to do and in my opinion it does it effectively. So I dismiss your 'problems' as not being 'problems' at all, but things you'd prefer to see. And regardless, it's a forum, it does its job and I don't think there's much of a big deal to kick a fuss up about...I mean it's a forum for goodness sakes.

BatVink
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 01:31
The purpose of the forum is to post questions about products and other related applications and skills, in order to receive answers to said questions. There is nothing stopping this from happening and there are many other features too. There is no need for smileys, profiles, typeface editing etc. You get them ,but it doesn't add to the necessary functions of the forum.

Don't get me wrong, there's loads of things I'd love to see here, including things on your list. But none of them stop me using the forum.

Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 01:39
Wow... this thread is getting out of hand. I'm gonna go now.

One thing I wanna know is why TGC didn't just use a forum engine thingy like everyone else. Then we'd have PMs and everything.
Herakles
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 01:44 Edited at: 29th Sep 2009 01:45
Quote: "One thing I wanna know is why TGC didn't just use a forum engine thingy like everyone else. Then we'd have PMs and everything."


Because the way a lot of other forums are laid out looks like a mess. This forum as a certain simplicity to it compared to many others that I really like.

Swordfight! My cheesy little first game!
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=147808&b=36
QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 01:46
It really, really bothers me when moderators and administrators argue against improvements

Seppuku, I see where you are coming from. I can even see the sorting column headers being more of a nicety. But it's the job of a web interface designer to make the interface as smooth and useful as possible for the user without adding unnecessary bells and whistles. That's what usability is. A preview post button isn't a crazy extra feature, it's something that improves the experience of using a forum. Same with auto-linking. I would consider a nicety something like a happy birthday widget, or a shoutbox. I wouldn't notice if they weren't there. I notice all the time when the things on my list aren't there, because they get in the way of a seamless user experience.

Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 01:48
Quote: "A preview post button isn't a crazy extra feature,"


Of course it is. Who ever uses those?
QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 01:53
Quote: "Of course it is. Who ever uses those?"

I assume you are being facetious, but if not, I certainly do

BiggAdd
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 02:02
Quote: "One thing I wanna know is why TGC didn't just use a forum engine thingy like everyone else. Then we'd have PMs and everything."


You have to remember that this forum was developed when things like phpBB and vBulletin were in their infant stages.

I don't think the issues your are pointing out are major flaws, I agree some of the features would be nice, but as BatVink has said, its not stopping us coming here.

I prefer this forum to most over-complicated phpBB clones out there.

Thraxas
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 02:03
I'm not arguing against improvements. But none of these things are a necessity, which is what you are arguing.

It seems you want these forums to be just like every other forum out there. I like these forums because of their uniqueness. They work perfectly well, despite what you say.

You just like to argue for the sake of arguing it seems. No one else's opinion is valid or even taken seriously.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 02:11
But the forum works fine the way it is. As far as usability goes, I find it very usable and have done since day one, and I have at no point found that the forums aren't smooth, certain features may 'add' to usability, but I'd actually prefer it without them - I think the forum is laid out very well, and it's seemingly simplistic, which I think is actually a plus point.

So I wouldn't say that the lack of those features are a 'usability flaw', but having features that add more to the forum, which may be of use, so maybe we treat the term 'nicety' differently, I mean to me, it's a feature that might be considered 'nice to have', but it doesn't hurt not having it.

BMacZero
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 02:11
I only use the preview post button on forums that don't allow editing.



lazerus
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 02:12
So much ado about nothing...

If it works and advances at a reasonable output to development, then why complain/critise if you yourself are not willing to do anything.

Its like complaining about global warming then starting up a hummer, irony and hypocrisy only go so far to describe it.

What you started out to do had good intentions, but the way you more so demmanded the changes set this off into a rough climate.

____
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"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes, That way, i wouldn't have your problems"
http://lazerus-reborn.deviantart.com/
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 02:15 Edited at: 29th Sep 2009 02:16
The site is a bit strange in many ways. No quote grabbing, and funny little search boxes at the bottom. Search is in resend, and not stored. For a computer programming site you would expect a good website. I think it needs updating. I don't like the page number system either.

Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 02:19
Quote: "I prefer this forum to most over-complicated phpBB clones out there."


Well, then how come forums like The Nexus Forums (http://www.thenexusforums.com/) which was also set up by one guy are all so successful?

Like everyone keeps saying: It's not stopping people from going there.
JLMoondog
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 02:25
I preferred the grey forums.


BiggAdd
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 11:36
Quote: ""I prefer this forum to most over-complicated phpBB clones out there.""


Quote: "Well, then how come forums like The Nexus Forums (http://www.thenexusforums.com/) which was also set up by one guy are all so successful?"


When people say "I", They generally mean they are speaking about their own personal preference, and not trying to represent the opinions of everyone in the world.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 12:07
You never know:

"I prefer" is code for, "It is universally accepted to be superior in every aspect" - you've just got to pay extra attention to these things Mr Add.

HowDo
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 13:16
I Like the way apollo works, if only other site could use it, I hate the posting systems that are on other sites, on here it how it should be, a perview post would be nice would help spot a few typo's

Dark Physics makes any hot drink go cold.
kaedroho
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 13:58 Edited at: 29th Sep 2009 13:58
Quote: "People go about using these forums every day with no problem"


Who said that? Whoever said that obviously doesnt use the forums very often.

I get tonnes of problems. The most annoying one is that you cant click a link until every image is loaded. Or the forums will freeze and give an error message "something has taken more than 30 secconds to do. Sorry but I have given up". Well, something like that. I'm sure people on the forums will know which error I mean. The only way to solve it is to turn off my browser and wait about 10 minutes. Its happened ever since TGC got a new server.

Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 14:17
Quote: "When people say "I", They generally mean they are speaking about their own personal preference, and not trying to represent the opinions of everyone in the world."


I'm sorry. What I meant to say is why do you prefer this forum to over-complicated phpBB clones when it appears that the majority of people don't?
Mobiius
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 15:00
The only thing I would like is images not stretching pages, and code tags being a fixed size with scroll bars.

Everything else does it's job as intended.

Perhaps QuothTheRaven should get employed by TGC to update the website since you:
Quote: "work full time in the web industry, and see many examples of good, and also bad work."


Your signature has been erased by a mod because we're sadistic losers with nothing better to do. (joke)
BiggAdd
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 15:09
Quote: "I'm sorry. What I meant to say is why do you prefer this forum to over-complicated phpBB clones when it appears that the majority of people don't?"


A lot of people like Coffee, just because the majority of people like something, doesn't mean I have to like it as well.

I just prefer simplicity rather than something which has a lot more "unnecessary" features , but a lot more messy.

Jeku
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 18:09
Quote: "The only thing I would like is images not stretching pages"


I'm not really sure how that would work, unless the forum forces the width of the image to not be more than X, but that would depend on the user's resolution. Sometimes you want to see the hi-res images in the posts, and then the browser will render is over the span of many screens horizontally. There's not a lot you can do about that!

Another fix would be to then do thumbnails on the server, but if you are linking to remote images, do you expect the forum to generate thumbnails for them as well? I've never seen a forum do that before (thumbnails for remotely linked images).


Senior Web Developer - Nokia
Benjamin
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 18:36
Quote: "I'm not really sure how that would work, unless the forum forces the width of the image to not be more than X, but that would depend on the user's resolution. Sometimes you want to see the hi-res images in the posts, and then the browser will render is over the span of many screens horizontally. There's not a lot you can do about that!"


Scrollbars come to mind.
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 29th Sep 2009 18:43
Quote: "Scrollbars come to mind. "


You mean have the picture(s) inside of an element that has a fixed width (like 600px wide), and if an image is larger than that scrollbars appear? That's a good idea!

-Yodaman Jer.

Benjamin
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 18:44
Ah yes... that's exactly what I meant...
Jeku
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 19:05
It does make it tricky to get the width of an image if there's no PHP GD library loaded, to detect if it's too long to fit on the page. There's also the issue with monitor resolution--- max X = 600? I'm on a 1920x1200 screen and it would be annoying to have a scrollbar if the image is 700 pixels wide.

Having an iframe inside of the post with its own scrollbar is kinda tacky, but with enough time anything can be done.


Senior Web Developer - Nokia
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 29th Sep 2009 19:15 Edited at: 29th Sep 2009 19:18
Quote: "I'm on a 1920x1200 screen..."


Lucky...

Quote: "...it would be annoying to have a scrollbar if the image is 700 pixels wide."


Very true...so maybe the element could have a fixed width of 800-900 pixels instead of 600? Assuming TGC would implement Benjamin's idea, of course.

Of course, another easy solution would just be to have a restricted picture size, like 800x600. Even that stretches pages on a standard 1024x768 monitor, but only by 50 or so pixels. And then another solution would be to tell users to upload their pic to another site and just use thumbnail images to link to them.

Not that those ideas haven't ever been mentioned before though. Lol.

-Yodaman Jer.

Jeku
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 19:26 Edited at: 29th Sep 2009 19:27
But we can't restrict image size automatically if they're remote images. Uploaded images can be controlled easier as they're on TGC's server. I have NEVER seen a forum auto-scale remotely linked images, and even if they exist, the work to implement something like that outweighs the value of removing the need for once-in-a-while having a forum page stretch.

Some of the other things like post preview are more important things to implement, in my opinion, and would be quicker.


Senior Web Developer - Nokia
QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 19:30
No, that's not how it works. It's just a markup change. If you have a huge image inside a div it stretches the div, which is fine. The problem is this is set up with tables, so if you make one post super wide, the table layout stretches the rest of the posts to be also super wide. But if you mark it up as individual divs, the rest of the posts don't stretch. A horizontal scrollbar will appear for the page, but you will only need to use it for the one super stretchy post.

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 29th Sep 2009 19:38 Edited at: 29th Sep 2009 19:38
I agree with you completely, Jeku. Post preview is definitely easier/more important to implement.

Quote: "I have NEVER seen a forum auto-scale remotely linked images, and even if they exist, the work to implement something like that outweighs the value of removing the need for once-in-a-while having a forum page stretch."


True, and I've never seen a forum do that either (and I'm on a lot of 'em).

-Yodaman Jer.

dark coder
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 19:41
Quote: "I have NEVER seen a forum auto-scale remotely linked images"


I've seen IPB do this I believe, though it only works once the image has fully loaded.


Either way, what's the purpose of sticking with Apollo? Most if not all of the issues mentioned in this thread are non-existent in other forum solutions, others are also regularly maintained by several people and fixes for issues can roll around very quickly. Saying other forums are bloated is just a terrible argument because features can always be disabled and due to the popularity of most other forum software you have easy access to addons that can do anything this forum can, some can even do it way better. Thus the only thing stopping the change is writing some code to convert the DB to one another forum can use?

Zotoaster
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 19:56
I disagree with the viewpoint people seem to have here. Simply saying "the forum is designed to post questions and have discussions, and it does that fine" doesn't quite cut it. The forum is a gateway for many to TGC's products, thus TGC has to look professional in every way possible.

Just being lazy and half-arsed about things just because you can't be bothered to add a small feature because it doesn't make that big a difference is a huge mistake. With time these accumulate, and what you end up with is a forum that takes a lot to fix, and doesn't impress people.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 29th Sep 2009 20:07
Quote: "Simply saying "the forum is designed to post questions and have discussions, and it does that fine" doesn't quite cut it. The forum is a gateway for many to TGC's products, thus TGC has to look professional in every way possible."


Okay. So, TGC should update with the most important things first, such as:

-Post Preview

Honestly, what else is there that's so annoying? Are people complaining because they don't like the design of the forum in general? Sure, I agree that the code tags could be improved with syntax highlighting and possibly scrollbars, but keep in mind that it's one guy doing all of the forum coding and he can't do all of these things at once like Raven is demanding to happen. One small step at a time, folks. Post preview would be the handiest feature right now. Maybe make it so that users have no choice but to confirm their post, so that they can read through it and change things if they need to, rather than having the preview as an option? That's what I'd do if I was coding my own forums.

-Yodaman Jer.

David R
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 20:19 Edited at: 29th Sep 2009 20:21
Another thing that bugs me: Why does newest post only work once? Why can't it always take you to the most recent post, irrespective of whether there have been no new ones since last time you clicked it? Every other forum on the planet does this, and the 'erroring' when it happens on here is incredibly annoying (especially since it only offers to go to the first page in the thread )

In fact, why isn't "newest post" just "Last post"? That would make far more sense in my opinion (with it consistently taking you to the last post, rather than only doing it if you haven't already viewed the newest post)

09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Zeus
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 23:01
Also, fixing some of the bugs wouldn't be bad either.

Jeku
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Posted: 29th Sep 2009 23:42 Edited at: 29th Sep 2009 23:43
Quote: "Either way, what's the purpose of sticking with Apollo? Most if not all of the issues mentioned in this thread are non-existent in other forum solutions"


If I remember correct the original creator of the forum, Richard Davey, intended this forum to be closed source because the open source forums are constantly being attacked by hackers. If the forum source is closed it's a lot harder to find vulnerabilities.

This forum, in my opinion, is still my favourite forum tech (and I'm not just saying this because I'm a mod--- I was a regular daily user for over a year before becoming a mod). When I join a new forum nowadays I'm irritated that I can't find little things like Newest Post.

This forum *maybe* has 5% of its features that I'd like to see improved, but the 95% is more enjoyable to use than regular forum software. It *IS* a personal preference, but it's still valid.

If you want to see bad forum design, check out the Blitz forums-- or better yet, don't.


Senior Web Developer - Nokia
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 29th Sep 2009 23:48
Quote: "If you want to see bad forum design, check out the Blitz forums-- or better yet, don't."


Boy, ain't that the truth! And they don't even let you register without a product registration key! In other words, registration isn't technically free...

That's what I loved about TGC. I was allowed to register for free and to ask questions concerning the products I was interested in. As a result I purchased DarkBASIC (will be purchasing DBPro soon) and fell in love with programming, even though it took me a couple of years to truly understand what it was all about. And the help and community here is great! There was never a question unanswered.

-Yodaman Jer.

Diggsey
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Posted: 30th Sep 2009 00:43
For me the most annoying things is that inserting tags into messages 1) Inserts them at the end of the message, not where the cursor is, unless text is selected. 2) Scrolls to the top of the message

Fix those two things and I will be happy

David R
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Posted: 30th Sep 2009 01:07 Edited at: 30th Sep 2009 01:07
Quote: "If the forum source is closed it's a lot harder to find vulnerabilities."


...but the vulnerabilities are more likely to exist in the first place, because with a closed source project a developer is more inclined to lean on security by obscurity - something impossible with FOSS.

The key thing here isn't FOSS vs. closed - it's spread. I think the reason this site doesn't use something open source (or some popular closed source thing for that matter) isn't just because they have vulnerabilities (because everything has flaws, including this site) but because by depending on a popular piece of tech opens up the forum to mass-scale attack (i.e. systematic attacks on every site running the software).

That's the only real way Apollo could be said to be more secure - because it's a rare, obscure piece of forum software only useful for hacking in order to bring down a single site. The fact it's closed source likely does zilch for it. (If it were FOSS but only used by this site then it could be just as secure)

09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Happy Cheesecake
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Posted: 30th Sep 2009 01:31 Edited at: 30th Sep 2009 01:32
Well isn't this a cheerful thread.


But most of these issues don't bother me in the slightest. Although a preview post button would be nice, I think I can continue on without it.

Jeku
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Posted: 30th Sep 2009 01:35
Quote: "but because by depending on a popular piece of tech opens up the forum to mass-scale attack "


Yes. I'm always reading about hacks on the big forum contenders and the admins are constantly having to update and patch their sites or fear potentially losing user data. Combine that with the fact that our forum accounts here are tied to our order history pages, I can see why TGC decided to not use standard software.


Senior Web Developer - Nokia
Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 30th Sep 2009 03:47
One feature I would really like is for TGC to change the colour of unread posts. It's kinda really hard to see because they're so similar.
jasonhtml
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Posted: 30th Sep 2009 04:06
i've been using the forum for years and i see no need to update it.

Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 30th Sep 2009 04:10
Quote: "One feature I would really like is for TGC to change the colour of unread posts. It's kinda really hard to see because they're so similar. "


I second that. Sometimes it's hard to discern the color between the individual posts. A darker blue or completely different color would be better.

-Yodaman Jer.

Zeus
18
Years of Service
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Joined: 8th Jul 2006
Location: Atop Mount Olympus
Posted: 30th Sep 2009 04:19
Quote: "One feature I would really like is for TGC to change the colour of unread posts. It's kinda really hard to see because they're so similar. "


I third that.

t10dimensional
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Mar 2009
Location: Code Cave, USA
Posted: 30th Sep 2009 06:09
It took me about a week and a half to get a hang of things on this forum, and this is my first one too.

I like the preview post thingy, it would be cool if it spell checked everything.(I need it lol.)

A good game is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration.
BiggAdd
Retired Moderator
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Aug 2004
Location: != null
Posted: 30th Sep 2009 12:24
Quote: "I second that. Sometimes it's hard to discern the color between the individual posts. A darker blue or completely different color would be better."

Sounds to me like the contrast on your monitor is too high.

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