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Geek Culture / Modern Warfare 2 boycott

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 08:55
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Quote: "In reality the people hurting the PC gaming industry are PC gamers who don't want to pay for games because they always have a reason why they shouldn't have to!"


Precisely.

"I don't pay for it, because it has DRM."

"I don't pay for it, because it doesn't enable LAN play."

"I don't pay for it, because the stars aren't right."

Kind of the same thing, really. I remember when Steam was first released and the myriad of people that "hated" it and didn't want it to happen and pirated games because of it. Today, Steam seems to be OK. Maybe because Valve have somehow gained the Pirate Stamp of Approval.

What Infinity Ward are doing with Modern Warfare 2 is minimizing their risks by creating a Battle.net/Steam-like service in their online functionality.

Just like the people suffering for the three maximum installations in some rights management systems, some people will suffer for the exclusion of dedicated servers. It all comes down to software piracy in the end. Like so many other things changing on the PC market.

And not seeing that or disputing how much effect piracy really has can only be attributed to ignorance, really. And there are no emoticons to that...
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David R
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 08:58 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2009 09:00
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Quote: "This is the sort of reasoning behind the draconian copy protection used on most new PC games and also the very reason why dedicated servers have been dropped for this game.
"


The crack->copy protection seems rather backward logic considering a crack is only needed in the first place because of those protection schemes

Quote: "Precisely.


"I don't pay for it, because it doesn't enable LAN play."

"


You seem to missing my point - I did did pay for the games I am referring to - what I'm not going to do is pay for it several times over. If you want to help me do that for no benefit what so ever, feel free to send me a cheque in the post to cover the costs

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Thraxas
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 09:16
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Quote: "The crack->copy protection seems rather backward logic considering a crack is only needed in the first place because of those protection schemes
"


Not as many people have problems with the copy protection as is made out. It's just you don't get all the people who don't have problems posting everywhere on the internet saying that the game works for them.

Quote: "You seem to missing my point - I did did pay for the games I am referring to - what I'm not going to do is pay for it several times over."


No I didn't miss your point, you're saying that even though you only paid for a single user license, you want to play multiplayer LAN and you're not going to pay for the extra licenses to cover that because you don't feel you'll play enough to get your moneys worth. Ergo, it's OK to pirate in this instance because you can't afford it.

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David R
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 09:22 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2009 09:38
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Quote: "No I didn't miss your point, you're saying that even though you only paid for a single user license, you want to play multiplayer LAN and you're not going to pay for the extra licenses to cover that because you don't feel you'll play enough to get your moneys worth. Ergo, it's OK to pirate in this instance because you can't afford it."


Yeah, because being the moral "straight edge" is fantastic in theory, but unless you've actually done it practice it kind of loses its meaning.

Have you ever played a restrictive LAN game? If you did, and not everyone had their own CD, what did you do? "Down to the shops everyone because we need to buy another copy!". BS.

This is one of those things most people get all preachy about on the net, but in reality they actually realise the truly "moral" thing is also down right stupid and a complete waste of money. Let me know next time you play a PC LAN game, because I bet you won't be purchasing extra copies when it's a CD/player

Quote: "Ergo, it's OK to pirate in this instance because you can't afford it."


No. Ergo, it's OK to pirate it because the scheme it is using is entirely unreasonable for what the product is designed to do, and I could go as far as to say it is "unfit for purpose". I paid for the product, it's in my household, I couldn't give a flying crap whether I breach their licences/EULA (most of which aren't legally sound anyway). In my opinion it's justified fair use. Chase the people who don't pay at all, not the people who actually have paid something

(And you also have to keep in mind that a LAN party or otherwise is not a permanent affair. If I bought and then copied and distributed you point is fair game. But for a temp. game for a few hours there is no way in hell I'm re-buying the game)

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 09:28
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Do you have the same logic regarding other products? Do you, for example, buy one hamburger and steal two off the shelves and run, because you've already paid for food -- it's just reasonable that your two friends also don't have to go hungry?

Because that's what it's about -- not paying = not using.

And yes, it WOULD be "down to the shops" most definitely. No BS at all. When I've played LAN it has usually been XBox LANs as I always found PC LANs way too fiddly and unreliable (think 2000 / 2001). And for XBox LANs there are really no alternatives if you haven't modded your boxes.

And I wouldn't do that. I don't have that much time to play games in the first place, so it's really a no-brainer whether to buy them or not.

It saddens me that you don't look at it the same way, because your angle in this is most likely the prevailing one in the world of today: piracy isn't a crime. You pirate software because of reasons X, Y and Nonsense.
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David R
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 09:31 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2009 09:36
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Quote: "Do you have the same logic regarding other products? Do you, for example, buy one hamburger and steal two off the shelves and run, because you've already paid for food -- it's just reasonable that your two friends also don't have to go hungry?

Because that's what it's about -- not paying = not using.
"


This argument comes up again and again, and it's still rubbish. Stealing physical goods deprives someone of that physical good. A copy of something which can be copied infinitely without 'pain' deprives no one of anything

Quote: " And for XBox LANs there are really no alternatives if you haven't modded your boxes."


Well it isn't the same scenario, is it? You re-bought the game because you had to (and there was no practical alternative) not because you wanted to. With a PC game, a crack or otherwise is a viable alternative - which I bet money you would have used if it were a PC game

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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 09:37
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Quote: "deprives no one of anything"


While I'm agreeing with you to an extent here, yes, it does deprive them of the possible money they could have earned.

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David R
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 09:42 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2009 09:42
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Quote: "While I'm agreeing with you to an extent here, yes, it does deprive them of the possible money they could have earned."


Possible money = £0, because I'm yet to meet anyone weird enough to re-purchase the game multiple times (you know, other than those on the net who preach what they wouldn't really practice in real life if they faced the same scenario *cough*)

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 09:54
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Quote: "With a PC game, a crack or otherwise is a viable alternative - which I bet money you would have used if it were a PC game"


No. I can afford to buy games and PC games are always cheaper than their console counterparts. I've bought three copies of Halo 2 for various friends, for example.

For me, piracy isn't a viable option, ever. And the only software pirates I can respect are those that don't argue in this way but can honestly admit that they pirate for a single reason: they don't want to pay money to play games.

Quote: "A copy of something which can be copied infinitely without 'pain' deprives no one of anything"


No dedicated servers for MW2. No more CryTek or even id Software exclusives for the PC. A smaller shelf-space in game outlets for PC titles.

Face it: you're wrong. There is both pain and deprivation. And this thread has been started because of what ultimately comes down to software piracy and a rapid decrease in profitability for PC-centric developers.

Defending piracy in this context is a bit futile, really.
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Thraxas
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 10:58 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2009 10:58
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Quote: "Yeah, because being the moral "straight edge" is fantastic in theory, but unless you've actually done it practice it kind of loses its meaning.
"


Just because YOU don't want to pay to use something doesn't mean everyone is like you. If I can't afford something I go without, it's not difficult.

If not everyone has a copy of a LAN game when I have tried to play it's tough luck for the person who doesn't have it. They have to wait and take turns, winner stays on. Oh my what a concept!

Quote: "No. Ergo, it's OK to pirate it because the scheme it is using is entirely unreasonable for what the product is designed to do, and I could go as far as to say it is "unfit for purpose". I paid for the product, it's in my household, I couldn't give a flying crap whether I breach their licences/EULA (most of which aren't legally sound anyway). In my opinion it's justified fair use. Chase the people who don't pay at all, not the people who actually have paid something "


The product does not become "unfit for purpose" because it doesn't do what you would like it to do! I have a copy of Defcon and nowhere does it say you can play LAN with one license key.

I'm not chasing anyone, people will pirate. They will always have a reason why in their case it's OK to pirate, and should anyone say otherwise they are automatically dismissed as being on a high horse. You don't feel you are hurting the industry by pirating as because it's only a file and not a physical copy that you have done no wrong.

Well you and the other million people who stole the game are hurting the PC games industry, and because of people like you, more games will have more intrusive DRM and as seen here PC games will get the short end of the stick.

You don't have to try and defend your actions to me as I won't agree with you. I couldn't care less if you continue to pirate games, just don't start complaining about the decline of the PC games industry when you are part of the problem.

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Toasty Fresh
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 11:57
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Quote: "Possible money = £0, because I'm yet to meet anyone weird enough to re-purchase the game multiple times"


Pirates use that stupid excuse EVERY time. It's honestly just stupid, because I'm tipping that if a torrent didn't exist for it, you would have gone without and never really cared or knuckled down and bought another copy.

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Grandma
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 12:00
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Quote: "Possible money = £0, because I'm yet to meet anyone weird enough to re-purchase the game multiple times"

Quote: "Pirates use that stupid excuse EVERY time. It's honestly just stupid, because I'm tipping that if a torrent didn't exist for it, you would have gone without and never really cared or knuckled down and bought another copy."

I'm confused, didn't you just reinforce his argument?

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David R
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 12:42 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2009 12:52
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Quote: "For me, piracy isn't a viable option, ever. And the only software pirates I can respect are those that don't argue in this way but can honestly admit that they pirate for a single reason: they don't want to pay money to play games."


I paid for the game. How many times do I need to restate that?

Quote: "If not everyone has a copy of a LAN game when I have tried to play it's tough luck for the person who doesn't have it. They have to wait and take turns, winner stays on. Oh my what a concept!"


Yeah, for some reason I get the impression that's more a hypothetical than a real occurrence -_-

Quote: "The product does not become "unfit for purpose" because it doesn't do what you would like it to do! I have a copy of Defcon and nowhere does it say you can play LAN with one license key."


But nowhere does it state I need multiple keys either. It is unfit if it doesn't do what it is supposed to do (LAN games) as per the conditions and features it mentions (nowhere does it say "Separate licence per player required")

Quote: "hey will always have a reason why in their case it's OK to pirate, and should anyone say otherwise they are automatically dismissed as being on a high horse. "


You are on a high horse, because not only are you equating two completely unlike situations (reuse of a paid product vs. not paying for it) there is absolutely zero chance you've actually done all of these things you are preaching. If I look at every machine you own I guarantee you I'll find something (paid) that you've installed on >1 machine (irrespective of what it is, what it's used for, whether you're using at the same time or not) - and bingo, by your logic you are (yourself) just as bad as those who never paid for it in the first place. Doesn't quite make sense, does it?

It's akin to buying a book for a household that multiple persons read - but oh, by your logic they've stolen from the shop and they're depriving the publisher of money. Yeah, sound argument there (+ just because the book cannot be read by each person at the same time does not make it an unlike situation. Most EULAs forbid install on multiple machines at once irrespective of whether they're in use at the same time)

Quote: "Pirates use that stupid excuse EVERY time. It's honestly just stupid, because I'm tipping that if a torrent didn't exist for it, you would have gone without and never really cared or knuckled down and bought another copy."


Just to clarify, what I'm saying is that it's extremely unlikely (to the point of never happening) that someone goes to a shop and buys 3 copies of a £40 game just for a LAN party. They are 'losing' a source of income they never had to begin with (that is, ignoring the hypothetical/BS situations that apparently occur every day. I'm guessing no-one is going to offer up a photo of the multiple copies of a single game they have?)

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Van B
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 12:53
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Quote: "Not as many people have problems with the copy protection as is made out. It's just you don't get all the people who don't have problems posting everywhere on the internet saying that the game works for them."


And when they do say something, they get shot down in flames. When discussing PC games, you have to be bitter and negative, refuse to do anything that might be construed as compromise. Linking to youtube rants from narrow-minded fanboys is optional. What get's me is they can complain about PC gaming, then look at console gaming as if they need a lobotomy first.

Frankly, I think it might be quite good for the PC to go back into a niche, let the consoles have their shooters and racers and sports games - leaving the PC for more intellectual games, simulation based FPS games like Op.Flashpoint2, involved driving games, strategy and in-depth RPG games. If a console version is more appealing, then the PC isn't trying hard enough - any medium spec gaming PC should wipe the floor with a 360's capabilities, and I for one am not seeing that. The PC should go back to being for serious gamers, who can spend the money on peripherals and hardware to get the most from it. Is it just me, or does it seem like the PC has been dragged from it's comfort zone.


On a different note, I'd just like to put my hand up and say that I've bought several copies of some games. I bought BF:MC for the 360 3 times, I bought 3 copies of Spore, 3 copies of some horrible RPG on the 360, 2 copies of BF2142 and 3 copies of BF2. I bought 2 copies of Halo2 and 3 copies of Halo3, and 3 copies of GTA4. It boils down to knowing what sort of game you enjoy, personally I would have 10 times as much fun in a game if playing with my younger brothers or son - if that means I have to buy the game another 2 times, then I often do that. Par the course of having kids, siblings too young to have their own money. With things like Battlefield and 360 games, there's really no way around it - you can't play online with battlefield unless you have a unique key - probably be fine for LAN, but BF2142 is just too much fun online. I only just re-bought Fallout3 for myself, the disc went missing, so I decided just to get the GOTY edition. Some games are worth buying twice.


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David R
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 12:59 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2009 13:00
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Actually, physical copies of some of the older games is quite a good idea as Christmas presents for friends. So there - a compromise

I think the major 'beef' in this respect is when you plan to play a game, and then find it has restrictions (on the day). You have only a few hours to fit in a LAN game, so it's a sort of "sod it" scenario.

Pre-planned more, I can see the logic in multiple copy purchases. Just in my case at least LAN parties are a rare (once a year with a few select friends) and 'on-the-hoof' affair. Clearly if you're attending something bigger scale or more organized (with more money behind it) then expectations should be different

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 14:03
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Quote: "Quote: "If not everyone has a copy of a LAN game when I have tried to play it's tough luck for the person who doesn't have it. They have to wait and take turns, winner stays on. Oh my what a concept!"

Yeah, for some reason I get the impression that's more a hypothetical than a real occurrence -_-
"


Winner stays on? I'm familiar with that concept - playing Halo 3 with a flat mate - 5 of us, 2 controllers, 1 game, 1 XBox 360. Winner stays on, take it in turns whilst you watch your mate pwn the other guy. It doesn't spoil the party to take it in turns, trust me. Same applies for CoD 4 on my other flatmate's PS3.

It happens and it works. But carry on, that's just my input for this debate, I'll crawl back into the hole where I came from.

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 14:41
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Quote: "Frankly, I think it might be quite good for the PC to go back into a niche, let the consoles have their shooters and racers and sports games - leaving the PC for more intellectual games"


You're on thin Roberta Williams-isch ice here, Van B.

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Van B
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 15:35
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Hehe, by intellectual I of course mean deeper storylines and involved character development. Really I mean games like Oblivion, Mass Effect etc - Fallout3 is a great RPG for consoles, but Oblivion is far more involved and far less clunky on a PC. That's all, wasn't referring to some user intellect requirement .

Thing is, as biggotted and Roberta-esque as it may sound, people who use PC's regularly tend to be a bit more intelligent than those who don't, which I think is quite understandable.


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Peter H
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 15:56
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Quote: "Thing is, as biggotted and Roberta-esque as it may sound, people who use PC's regularly tend to be a bit more intelligent than those who don't, which I think is quite understandable."

haha

wait, don't the people on 4chan use PCs... ?

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Grandma
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 16:06 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2009 16:12
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Quote: "wait, don't the people on 4chan use PCs... ?"

Many seem above average on 4chan, as long as you don't enter the random section that is. They are mostly a different breed...

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 16:20
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I prefer not to divide games into console-based demographics, actually. All platforms have their instant gratification titles beside their intellectual ones and that's just the way it should be. The only difference is how you interact with the game and that's not much difference at all, in the end.

There's room for all of it. Nothing has to be "niche" at all, but just accessible, useful and fun.

Besides, given that laptops are outselling desktops these days, I think future PC games will have to be built with touch pads and lack of a Num Pad in mind. I've even seen some browser-based MMO-stuff that only uses the keyboard.

Change happens. If people don't like it, it'll just make them bitter.
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Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 16:23
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Quote: "If you did, and not everyone had their own CD, what did you do?"


What's the breaking point then? Just you and your family with each their own copy? Then it's ok to pirate the extra copies? What if you're at a LAN party with 20 guys? Is that ok still to play with one copy?

The point is: it's against their EULA and technically is illegal. However you justify it is your own prerogative.

Quote: "A copy of something which can be copied infinitely without 'pain' deprives no one of anything"


As far as I remember DEFCON uses master servers to setup game matches, even with LANs. Those pirated copies are using their bandwidth for free.

Quote: "I paid for the game. How many times do I need to restate that?"


Actually you paid for the license to use said game on a single machine at a time. You didn't pay for full ownership to make as many copies and share it all you want.

You can't buy Windows XP Home Edition and expect that, since it states Home Edition, that you can install it on all your home computers without a warning on the box saying "1 computer only". It's logic that hasn't changed in decades, aside from a few exceptions like AOE2 as you stated. As far as I know they would advertise that feature on the box, instead of the "1 computer at a time" rule that covers most games as a given.


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Lemonade
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 19:03
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Quote: "aside from a few exceptions like AOE2 as you stated."


Every single game I have owned allows unlimited installs. Sure they are not modern games, but you say this "1 computer at a time" rule has been going on for years.

For instance:

Cod2
BF1942
BF Vietnam
Need for Speed games
Age of Empires 1, 2, and 3
Age of Mythology
Rise of Nations
Rayman 1, 2, and 3

etc...

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draknir_
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 20:11
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Sorry to take a quote from two pages back, I just wanted to reply to this:

Quote: "
Nine pirated copies for every game sold isn't that far-fetched, if you think about it. According to an NVidia statement some time ago, there are about 120,000,000 Geforce cards on the market from the two or three latest generations. Disregarding customers with multiple computers or upgrades, there's still a lot of people capable of playing PC games. A LOT of people. And that's just one brand of graphics card, at that.

Yet, somehow, PC sales are still ridiculously low in comparison to console games. Strange, isn't it?"


You are correct that PC piracy is rampant, it's horrible and I fully understand that it's part of the reason why developers care less and less about PC gamers. However, most PC piracy is only effective for singleplayer games. Most multiplayer games are a lot tougher to pirate, and server statistics can back that up (sorry I haven't got the links to those yet, I had several before)

I have been to a lot of (very large, 1000+) LAN parties for FPS game tournaments (pretty much the most hardcore you can get), and nearly everyone I have met there says the same about every new game: If the multiplayer is good, I'll buy it.

That's part of the reason why piracy is not a valid reason for cutting out dedicated servers. It hurts a lot more paying customers than it cripples pirates.
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entomophobiac
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 21:47
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But it's not ABOUT crippling pirates. It's about eliminating the problem by focusing resources where there's a return on investment. Simple as that. Solid support for specific server architecture that is also quite simple to abuse is one bullet point that they could easily remove from their agenda and still know that the vast majority of their customers are completely "uninjured," if you will.
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Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 23:02
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Quote: "Every single game I have owned allows unlimited installs."


Yes, unlimited installs, but only on one computer at a time. Read their EULAs, it's all in there.


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draknir_
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2009 23:02 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2009 23:03
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@entomophobiac:
175,000 (# of sigs) PC gamers is not a minority of their PC customers though. I don't see why it's ok for IW to brush off such a vast number of their players.

How does stripping away a fundamental part of PC gaming 'focus their resources'? If you're trying to argue that providing a dedicated server executable is some massive investment of their resources I would have to disagree, they have all the base network code right there in COD4. Of course adaptation is necessary, but IWnet (the matchmaking replacement) was at least as much if not more work for them.
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entomophobiac
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Posted: 4th Nov 2009 00:26
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Quote: "Of course adaptation is necessary, but IWnet (the matchmaking replacement) was at least as much if not more work for them."


Then that's obviously where they put their resources. Can't really see the argument.

In all honesty, I don't give a rat's behind about online petitions. Multiple e-mail accounts per person, robot script automation, friends telling friends and a million other ways to mess with the numbers make such petitions worth less than an empty beer bottle on S:t Patty's Day.

Disregarding that, and pretending that they ARE in fact actual people, I won't believe for a second that all those 175,000 would have ever bought the game in the first place.

That's why I mentioned the 90% piracy rate -- it most likely counts into those 175,000, as well.
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Peter H
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Posted: 4th Nov 2009 04:01 Edited at: 4th Nov 2009 04:01
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[edit] nvm

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Libervurto
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Posted: 4th Nov 2009 13:48
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Why do we always get into this stupid discussion?
Game companies need to make a profit, they are businesses not your friends. It annoys me when people refuse to pay for anything creative, not just games. The creators have the rights for the product and just because you bought a copy doesn't mean you own it, you own a licence to play it.
If you can't afford the top selling games then go find something by and indie developer, there are loads of good games out there, most at cheap prices or even free, and you'd be helping the industry grow.

I think this whole attitude of "why should I pay?" comes from the human rights movement; now everyone thinks they're entitled to everything. Don't get me wrong, human rights are a good thing but their purpose was to prevent things like torture not to give people things they haven't earned. It's a very spoilt attitude to have.

"With game, we create these elaborate worlds in our minds, and the computer is there to do the bookkeeping." - Will Wright
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demons breath
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Location: Surrey, UK
Posted: 4th Nov 2009 18:53
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Quote: "I think this whole attitude of "why should I pay?" comes from the human rights movement; now everyone thinks they're entitled to everything. Don't get me wrong, human rights are a good thing but their purpose was to prevent things like torture not to give people things they haven't earned. It's a very spoilt attitude to have."


I can't say I've honestly ever heard anyone use "human rights" as a defence for theft like that before, but I find the idea intriguing. Wonder how far we could take it. Extend it to other crimes. Could be a laugh.

"The fools may crash down upon us in thunderous waves, but we shall Jeku slap them back from whence they came"
-BiggAdd Oct 28th 2009
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Seppuku Arts
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Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 4th Nov 2009 21:14
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I shot a guy because of my religious beliefs - it's freedom of religion and it's my basic human right to exercise that religious belief and you're a fascist for denying me that legal right.


Are you thinking along those lines?

The simple answer to "why should I pay?" It's because of the terms by which a person chooses to release a product they've worked hard on to create and it's their choice what to put into their license, if you disagree with the license, then simple - go with out, but the good thing is - you can boycott it - kick up a fuss get the message out that their license agreement is unfair - it's possible that as a result of the boycott that they release a patch for you. You can't really have a leg to stand on when you make this argument and decide to break the law. If a game company starts losing money through people no buying their game or too many people are complaining, they'll probably have to change. I think pirating actually sends out the message that, "people like our games, so we must be doing something right. But how do we stop people from stealing them? We'll make pirate protection tougher." If the reason for stealing is pirate protection or single-user licenses etc. you can see where the problem spirals. It's because pirates that we have securom, though many will blame EA, I actually blame the pirates, because EA has to respond and have to compromise customer satisfaction to meet that end.

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entomophobiac
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Posted: 4th Nov 2009 22:31
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Quote: "If a game company starts losing money through people no buying their game or too many people are complaining, they'll probably have to change."


The sad fact here is that the game company (developer) will probably go down with it and disappear off the map and the publishers will make a few more sequels to fill the economy gap...
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Jeku
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 4th Nov 2009 22:36
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Quote: "though many will blame EA, I actually blame the pirates, because EA has to respond and have to compromise customer satisfaction to meet that end."


And again, it's not an EA game EA has largely smartened up its act over the past few years, but it is not the only publisher to use DRM like SecuROM--- not even close.


Senior Web Developer - Nokia
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Nov 2009 23:02
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Fairplay, but I've still heard EA blamed before, none-the-less.

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