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Geek Culture / Time - dd/mm/yy

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zeroSlave
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Posted: 27th Jan 2010 20:46 Edited at: 27th Jan 2010 20:46
Quote: "It is the 26th day of January, so month before day makes more sense.""

But this doesn't make much sense, because the first part of the sentence stated that the day comes before the month.

The day belongs to January. Although, you could say, "January's 26th day" which would make 1/26 correct. But this would cause complications with some languages because most don't use 's to show possession.

"This is the house of Billy." "Casa de Billy."
"The 26th day of January." 26/1

Also, 'and' is a word for adding to it, so 'Two thousand and ten' would be correct in terms of math. 2000+10=2010

Quote: "If saying the name of a band, would you use plural or singular:
"Anthrax are great", or "Anthrax is great".
I think that it would be "are" because saying "Anthrax is great," makes you sound suicidal, plus if you said:
"What do you think of the band Anthrax?"
the response would be:
"They are great."
The response being plural."


Gotta be "are great." I think a lot of times the use of "are/is" depends on if the name is singular or plural.
"The Red Hot Chili Peppers are great!"
"Tool is great!"



Here's my question. What about "a/an"? "I saw an opossum!" or I saw a opossum!"? "What letter is that? A 'f' or an 'f'?



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Omega gamer 89
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Posted: 27th Jan 2010 22:39
@RUCCUS: No worries, Im not upset about anything. If I came off as crabby or irritable, my bad.

Quote: "Here's my question. What about "a/an"? "I saw an opossum!" or I saw a opossum!"? "What letter is that? A 'f' or an 'f'?"


It would be "I saw a possum!" Because Opossum is actually the archaic spelling. There "O" was remove some decades ago.

So what if I talk to myself? Its the only way i can have an intelligent conversation around here.
AndrewT
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Posted: 27th Jan 2010 22:44 Edited at: 27th Jan 2010 22:50
Quote: "It would be "I saw a possum!" Because Opossum is actually the archaic spelling. There "O" was remove some decades ago."


Possums and opossums are different things. The possum was named after the opossum due to the resemblance, but they're still different animals, located on opposite sides of the world.

And yes, some people call opossums "possums", but that's misleading, and the term "opossum" is by no means archaic. Quite honestly, Omega, you're coming across as an arrogant know-it-all that doesn't actually know it all.

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Venge
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Posted: 27th Jan 2010 23:02
Quote: "Here's my question. What about "a/an"? "I saw an opossum!" or I saw a opossum!"? "What letter is that? A 'f' or an 'f'?"


It depends on the sound the first letter of the next word makes, not necessarily whether it's a consonant or vowel. 'A' come before consonant sounds, while 'an' comes before vowel sounds. So it would be an opossum, and an f (an eff, unless you say the letter 'f' as "fff"). That's also why it's an honor instead of a honor, since there is no h sound in 'honor' as far as I know. 'Herb' seems to be more questionable.


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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 27th Jan 2010 23:17 Edited at: 27th Jan 2010 23:17
Quote: "Quite honestly, Omega, you're coming across as an arrogant know-it-all that doesn't actually know it all.
"

Agreed, so far you've been proven wrong on every point you've so confidently made.


zeroSlave
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Posted: 27th Jan 2010 23:20
So, since 'utopia' starts with a 'U' but phonetically begins with a 'Y' it would be 'living in a utopia'? This makes sense and is easier to vocalize.

Quote: "Because Opossum is actually the archaic spelling. There "O" was remove some decades ago."

Quote: "located on opposite sides of the world."

I'm going to blame timezones and date formats for this variation.

Quote: "order of common opossums "

from wiki Made me giggle.

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Omega gamer 89
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Posted: 27th Jan 2010 23:46 Edited at: 27th Jan 2010 23:46
Quote: "Quite honestly, Omega, you're coming across as an arrogant know-it-all that doesn't actually know it all"

Really? I don't see how. YOU, however, are coming across an uppity jerk who is needlessly offensive and doesn't have any idea what he is talking about.
YES, I read the articles you linked to. The one on the Possum of Australia, New Guinea, etc, I can't say as to its accuracy.
The article on the North American "Opossum", however, I can assure you is terribly inaccurate.
The North American Possum WAS called an Opossum for quite a while. However, the spelling and pronunciation were changed to remove the "O" some time in the 1900's.
Sorry if I come off as a know-it-all, but Im going to trust my Biology textbooks over Wikipedia.
Quote: "Agreed, so far you've been proven wrong on every point you've so confidently made."

... Are you reading the same thread as I am? Cause Im reading the "Time - dd/mm/yy" thread, and I haven't been proven wrong yet, at all.

So what if I talk to myself? Its the only way i can have an intelligent conversation around here.
AndrewT
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Posted: 27th Jan 2010 23:54 Edited at: 28th Jan 2010 00:22
You may want to inform Encyclopedia Britannica about this recent name change, as they still have their article under the name Opossum. They may expect to see a reliable source of this information, though, which you have not yet provided.

Quote: "and I haven't been proven wrong yet, at all."




Opossum:

Infraclass: Marsupialia
Order - Didelphimorphia
Family - Didelphidae

Possum:

Infraclass: Marsupialia
Order - Diprotodontia
Many different families, Sub-Order: Phalangeriformes

Quote: "Is a possum and an opossum the same thing?

Yes and no. Throughout America the opossum is often referred to colloquially as a possum (similarly to the way some people refer to a potato as a tater or to a mosquito as a skeeter), but its actual name is opossum. When we refer to it by its colloquial name on this website, we usually add an apostrophe at the beginning to indicate the omission of the initial o: ’possum. But there really is an animal called a possum (without an initial o) that differs significantly from the North American opossum. The true possum is indigenous to Australia and looks quite unlike the American variety. You can see pictures of the Australian possum here, and there are also links to other possum websites on our links page. "


Quote: "A possum is any of about 25 small to medium-sized arboreal marsupials native to Australia. The name derives from their resemblance to the opossums of the Americas and, unlike most names applied to Australian fauna in the early years of European colonisation, happens to be accurate: the opossums of America are distant relatives. (The name is from Algonquian wapathemwa, not Greek or Latin, so the plural is possums, not *possa.).
"


Sources:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/430194/opossum/281173/Classification
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Opossum
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Possum
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/opossum.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opossum
http://www.junglewalk.com/info/possum-information.htm
http://www.junglewalk.com/info/Opossum-information.htm
http://opossum.craton.net/faqs.htm
http://www.eol.org/pages/7622

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 00:01 Edited at: 28th Jan 2010 00:01
Quote: "Are you reading the same thread as I am? Cause Im reading the "Time - dd/mm/yy" thread, and I haven't been proven wrong yet, at all."

Ok, I'll point them out to you then:

Quote: "No, in any English.
Besides, its not JUST a language thing, it's also a math thing.
I've had several math teachers correct a classmate for using "and" when saying a number."

http://www.english-at-home.com/speaking/saying-dates-and-numbers-in-english/
http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090630215436AAcX0m7
Even if it is correct to omit the "and" in American English, it is apparently not correct in British English, so no, not in "any English" as you so confidently stated.


Quote: "Americans write it month/day/year because
A) It sounds much better
B) It makes much more sense"

This is just an arrogant and ignorant statement. It does not make much more sense, because it is not going from smallest to largest unit, it goes middle-smallest-largest (month-day-year). It obviously sounds better to YOU (and me, since I'm American as well), because that's how we most often hear it and how we say it.


Quote: "It would be "I saw a possum!" Because Opossum is actually the archaic spelling. There "O" was remove some decades ago."

AndrewT just linked you to the articles showing the differences. Here's another one:
http://opossum.craton.net/faqs.htm
So yes, they are related species, but not the same thing.

Quote: "The article on the North American "Opossum", however, I can assure you is terribly inaccurate."

You seem very confident in your knowledge of Opossums...


Starting to remember how you were proven wrong every time now?


BatVink
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 00:03
The ISO International Standards do not include MM/DD/YY at all - ISO 8601. The US is not following International Standards, which could actually lead to legal implications in disputes over dates (e.g delivery dates, project dates etc)

The UK is just as bad with weights. Despite best efforts to make pounds and ounces an illegal form of presenting weights in retail the EU failed miserable and allowed us to stick in the historic mud of measuring in base 16 for ounces in a pound, 14 for pounds in a stone, 12 for inches in a foot, and I can't recall the bizarre number for yards in a mile. Oh, and base 20 for fluid ounces in a pint

Fallout
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 00:24 Edited at: 28th Jan 2010 10:52
Someone deploy the peacekeeping carrot, for god sake!!



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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 00:32 Edited at: 28th Jan 2010 00:32
This is kinda along the same lines: how do you say "cross producting" or "dot producting" properly? I can't think of anything that fits this context.

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Omega gamer 89
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 03:58
Quote: "You may want to inform Encyclopedia Britannica about this recent name change, as they still have their article under the name Opossum."

Well, Encyclopedia Britannica may want to inform Webster's, AND the world book encyclopedia of this issue, because Im looking at both right now, and they disagree. My 12th grade Biology textbook disagrees as well.
Quote: "Even if it is correct to omit the "and" in American English, it is apparently not correct in British English, so no, not in "any English" as you so confidently stated."

Right. So Im going to believe your random generic website that no one's ever heard of, which could have been put up there by any crackhead weirdo, and your yahoo answers question which could have been answered by a two year old or some idiot just trying to trick people, RATHER than believing 3 individual high school math teachers, 2 individual college math professors, and my own mother, who is also a high school teacher. All 6 of those people have, at one point or another told me, or a classmate of mine, that you do not use the word "and" when saying numbers. Not to mention that the yahoo answers question was about using and with decimals, not in the way we're talking about.
And regardless of ANY sources, all you have to do is look at the numbers. "2010" Where in there do you see the word "and"?
You can't just add words in. How about I pronounce your user name "Gil AND Galvanti" If the word "and" (or an ampersand) is not included in "2010" (or any number) then there is no "and". End of story.
Would you say "I am twenty and nine years old"? No, of course not, cause it sounds stupid, ridiculous and makes no sense. So why would you add in the "and" just because there are more digits?
Quote: "This is just an arrogant and ignorant statement. It does not make much more sense, because it is not going from smallest to largest unit, it goes middle-smallest-largest (month-day-year). It obviously sounds better to YOU (and me, since I'm American as well), because that's how we most often hear it and how we say it."

It is not ignorant, and it is not arrogant. If me (an American) saying our way makes more sense and sounds better is ignorant and arrogant, then it is equally ignorant and arrogant for someone else (who is European) to say that their way makes more sense and sounds better.
According to you, the fact that I'm American makes me saying the EXACT SAME THING that others are saying about their way ignorant and arrogant, and the others being European makes them correct.
It works both ways, buddy. Both parties are saying that their way sounds better and is more logical, based largely on the fact that they were raised using their way. So who is to say which one is correct?
And largest, middle, smallest or vice-versa is irrelevant. See my earlier post about the Billy's house analogy.
Quote: "So yes, they are related species, but not the same thing."

Wow. Pay attention, man. I never said they were the same thing. I said the the NORTH AMERICAN Opossum/Possum was once called an Opossum, but is now called a Possum.
Quote: "You seem very confident in your knowledge of Opossums..."

No, but I am very confident in my textbook's and dictionary's knowledge of Possums.
Quote: "Starting to remember how you were proven wrong every time now?"

Uhh... Nope! Can't remember something that never happened. I think you are confusing memory with imagination.

So what if I talk to myself? Its the only way i can have an intelligent conversation around here.
AndrewT
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 04:23 Edited at: 28th Jan 2010 04:32
Quote: "I said the the NORTH AMERICAN Opossum/Possum was once called an Opossum, but is now called a Possum."


You have failed to present me with any source of information that supports this claim, aside from a high-school level Biology textbook and an encyclopedia, both of which may be outdated. I searched "possum" on Merriam-Webster Online and it linked me to "opossum".

I have provided you with 10 sources that agree with me. You have provided me with two sources that agree with you, and one source that agrees with me.

Quote: "No, but I am very confident in my textbook's and dictionary's knowledge of Possums."


I am equally confident that the many sources I linked to are reliable. The only difference between our confidence is that mine is towards 10 reliable sources; yours is towards two, which I can't even verify.

The National Opossum Society and the Opossum Society of the United States both seem to agree with me. It seems strange that two societies devoted to the opossum would not have acknowledged this name change. Maybe you should email them about it. For that matter, it seems that every source I have seen on the internet, period, seems to agree with me. It's weird; the entire internet seems to be unaware of this name change. Maybe we should form some kind of interest group, to spread the awareness.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 06:06 Edited at: 28th Jan 2010 06:09
Quote: "Right. So Im going to believe your random generic website that no one's ever heard of, which could have been put up there by any crackhead weirdo, and your yahoo answers question which could have been answered by a two year old or some idiot just trying to trick people, RATHER than believing 3 individual high school math teachers, 2 individual college math professors, and my own mother, who is also a high school teacher. All 6 of those people have, at one point or another told me, or a classmate of mine, that you do not use the word "and" when saying numbers. Not to mention that the yahoo answers question was about using and with decimals, not in the way we're talking about.
And regardless of ANY sources, all you have to do is look at the numbers. "2010" Where in there do you see the word "and"?
You can't just add words in. How about I pronounce your user name "Gil AND Galvanti" If the word "and" (or an ampersand) is not included in "2010" (or any number) then there is no "and". End of story.
Would you say "I am twenty and nine years old"? No, of course not, cause it sounds stupid, ridiculous and makes no sense. So why would you add in the "and" just because there are more digits?"



By your logic, "On 20th September 2009" wouldn't be read out as, "On the twentieth of September 2009". Because in the written form we omit 'the' and 'of' - the written form follows the oral, not the other way round. Language didn't develop because people started writing, but because people started speaking. The written form is just another means of communication.

In UK English, in speech we keep the 'and', this perhaps stems from our Germanic origins and this is perhaps where you can find it's considered correct. Take the German equivalent (excuse any poor German spellings, I tend to speak it more than I write it):

25 is "funf und zwanzig" or "five and twenty". It wasn't too long ago when we spoke like that in English, at least when I had to read Jane Austen for an exam, a character might say, "she was a lady of five and twenty", it would appear we've moved away from that. After-all language changes.

205 is "zwei hundart und funf" or "two hundred and five". This version still exists and is still widely accepted, though not everywhere it seems. It may be inconsistent , but it isn't incorrect.

Same applies in Norse, "tuttugu ok fimm" (25) (Twenty and five), I'd use the hundreds on this one, but 100 in Norse is actually 120, so "hundrað ok fimm" is actually 125 (Hundred and five). This is another language to influence English and like English, it is also Germanic. (Norse is the term for 'North Germanic')

So it seems daft to claim it as 'incorrect', we can't have such a so strongly prescriptive approach to language because language changes, we have our language origins and we have different dialects, not just regional, but also national (UK, US and Australian English are all different)

dark coder
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 06:55 Edited at: 28th Jan 2010 06:57
Quote: "RATHER than believing 3 individual high school math teachers, 2 individual college math professors, and my own mother, who is also a high school teacher."


Why do you keep mentioning this? I fail to see how being a maths teacher gives you any literary credentials.


Quote: "And regardless of ANY sources, all you have to do is look at the numbers. "2010" Where in there do you see the word "and"?"


OK you must be trolling, I'm sure even you can appreciate there's a difference between the two written forms.


As for the whole mm/dd/yyyy thing, what do you call Independence Day? July The Fourth? I think not. At the end of the day, we're speaking Engl(and)ish, so whatever crazy conventions are used in America are irrelevant, as they are wrong.

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 07:30 Edited at: 28th Jan 2010 07:46
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_numbers_in_English#Dates
Scroll down and you'll see both pronunciations of dates listed. Here's another more "reliable source":
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/2010, which states:
Quote: "Although the majority of English-speakers say "two thousand (and) X" for any specific year post–1999, it is often suggested that the continuation of this type of pronunciation for the entire 21st century would be inappropriate or unnatural, given the alternative "twenty X" option."


Omega is just way too arrogant and conceded to even try to argue with, I think he's used every fallacy in the book in his arguments thus far (argument from repetition, appeal to ridicule, appeal to authority, false analogy, false dilemma, naturalistic fallacy, straw man, judgmental language, to name a few, anyone better at spotting/naming them feel free to add to the list). It almost makes me laugh at how good an example he is of how NOT to debate. You provide almost no sources (other than your oh-so-wise teachers and whatnot), yet overlook or criticize whichever sources are given to you.


jrowe
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 11:18 Edited at: 28th Jan 2010 11:18
Quote: "Well, Encyclopedia Britannica may want to inform Webster's, AND the world book encyclopedia of this issue, because Im looking at both right now, and they disagree. My 12th grade Biology textbook disagrees as well.
"


To be honest, any biologist who's worth his salt will tell you that everyday names of species are about as useful as a chocolate teapot. If your textbook tells you one name is correct and another is wrong, then the author is short sighted. There are many instances of the same colloquial species name referring to two different organisms e.g. "Bluebells" in England refer to Hyacinthoides non-scriptus, but in Scotland refer to Campanula rotundifolia.
The only correct biological names are the latinised binomial and its taxonomy. These are subject to strict naming conventions and without them there could be no cross comparisons between literature, because no one could be sure they were referring to the same thing.

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zeroSlave
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 16:58
Quote: "Bluebells"


I read that as something else, and was waiting for the punch line at the end of your post. It never came...

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Daniel wright 2311
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 17:11
from a computers stand point it is the most right way to say it, or to read it out. its not the way america writes it. I know im an american. we write it day, month, year, even I get a little confused when i look at my pc.lol

AndrewT
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 17:16
Quote: "we write it day, month, year, even I get a little confused when i look at my pc.lol"


Really? Everybody I know uses MM/DD/YY, and I get weird looks from others when I accidentally switch the month and the day. All of the standard forms I've filled out in school (for standardized tests, ID card, etc.) ask for the date in MM/DD/YY format.

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Daniel wright 2311
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 17:19
not in colorado, I guess i depends on what state you live in. all my life we wrote it the right way. even in new mexico!

zeroSlave
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Posted: 28th Jan 2010 17:22
Yeah. Everybody I know uses MM/DD/YY. It's like that on my driver's license and every check I write or receive. At least that's how it is here in STL.

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Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 29th Jan 2010 08:48 Edited at: 29th Jan 2010 08:51
is it just me or did anyone else deduce from this thread the precise reason as to why there is no single standard for any of this?

add that, because of this, i don't believe there can be

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Fallout
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Posted: 29th Jan 2010 11:16
I think we should all just tell the date in milliseconds before and after the epoch.

For example:
Jesus was born at -62138238339.
I was born at 365505261.
You will all be killed by me at 1262340861.

Simples.

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budokaiman
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Posted: 29th Jan 2010 17:20
Quote: "Simples."

Which is why it isn't fun. We should get the milliseconds, spell out each number, get the ASCII value for the letters, convert those to binary and invert every second and third digit.

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