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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] A portal question... maybe philosophy.

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Plystire
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 11:57
So, I was talking with my friend about portals and how awesome it would be to have a fight between two guys that ahd portal guns (among other weaponry) and we came across something that we couldn't comprehend...

What would happen if you created a portal on the side of a box... and threw that box into the other portal?

I think the universe would explode... my friend is still undecisive about the outcome.


Let's hear your thoughts on what would happen.


The one and only,


Mnemonix
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 12:06
That has made my brain hurt.

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Plystire
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 12:13
Lmao, I know, right? The answer seems almost obvious at first... that the box would be turning inside out constantly going through the portal and out of itself again, but then you have to ask.... where is the box? How would you see it?

The box MUST come out of itself, but since it went through the portal... where is it now? And furthermore, what is happening to it?


The one and only,


Mnemonix
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 12:20
I'm going to stop reading this thread before my head explodes.

If you threw a cake into the portal, would it get fatter?

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budokaiman
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 14:35
Assuming that the portals would have to be the same size, for matter to enter and leave the nearly the same, If you created a portal on the side of a box, it would be smaller than the box. If you created a portal on a wall to throw the box into, that portal would have to be the same size, which is smaller than the box. Therefore, the box would not fit.

Shadowtroid
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 14:40
I think it was on a beta or an earlier version of portal that you could shoot portals through other portals.

*ka-blamos head*

TheComet
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 14:59
Dr Tank made a spherical portal demo. Let's get him to move the portal into the other portal and see what the outcome is...

TheComet

El Goorf
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 15:00
i remember portal put me out of action for three days. Within 40 mins of playing it i suddenly came down with the worst migraine ever. i choose not to think about this paradox of yours.

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ShaunRW
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 15:43
I wouldn't be brave enough to try it. I'll be scared my cpu will explode.

TheComet
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 16:19
Ok, here's my explanation according to Carl Sagan:

Portals are just an intersection of two areas in our 3d world in the fourth dimension. You can picture this if you have 2d portals. What you are doing with a 2 dimension portal is you are taking the 2 dimensional world and bending it just like a piece of paper until two points of the world intersect. From the 2d perspective, the world still looks flat and 2 dimensional, but from the 3d perspective the 2d world is bent. At the point of intersection it allows the 2d creatures on their 2d world to jump from one side of the intersection point to the other.

So although the two points of intersection in the 2 dimensional perspective seem to be far away, in the 3 dimensional perspective they are touching each other, which causes a window to form in the 2 dimensional world where you can see the other side and step through it.

This can of course be applied to higher dimensions such as 3d and 4d. A Portal is the intersection point of our 3d world in the 4th dimension. So considering the angle of the bend in matter when the two portals are on each other, the angle would be 180°, which means there is no bend at all, which should then cause the portals to disappear because there is no intersection.

The portals can not be different sizes, because both portals represent the area of intersection from opposite views.

You can't move the portals into each other, because it's physically not possible in the 4th dimension.

Hope this clarifies a few things!

TheComet

lazerus
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 16:44
Nothing. Itll be like mirroring a object.

I can see it clearly in my head, but words cant really work right now.

budokaiman
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 16:47
Quote: "The portals can not be different sizes"

So my answer was, essentially, still correct.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 20:21
What if the portals were the size of the portals in portal? Then you could fit one in horizontally.

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Cyborg ART
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 21:48
Daaaaa!!!! Wont be able to sleep well tonight

TheComet
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Posted: 1st Apr 2010 22:01
Quote: "What if the portals were the size of the portals in portal?"


Lol, took me a while to understand that you meant the game "portal".

I have done a bit more thinking about this, and I come to the conclusion that portals in a 3d world are 3 dimensional, just like here. They don't have to be a sphere, but they have to be 3 dimensional or they would be too thin to fit through (because we are 3 dimensional too).

Getting back to the horizontal argument, yes, it is theoretically possible to try and fit them in like that, but if you are looking from a dimension above, it is physically not possible, because as soon as they touch each other, the intersecting portals cancel each other out and disappear.

Let's go back to the 2d portals. You have a 2 dimensional land:



To create a portal, you bend it like a piece of paper until you get an intersecting area:



At area of intersection, it is possible to jump from one side to the other to cover a long distance with almost no movement.



In 2 dimensional view, it will look like two areas that share the same view from opposite sides:



Now, to bring the portals together so they intersect with each other, you will be moving the area of intersection down:



When the two portals are touching each other:



There won't be any matter left for intersection:



Which means the further you push the two portals "into" each other, the less space you are using for intersection, thus the portals are eliminated.

TheComet

Plystire
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2010 01:22 Edited at: 2nd Apr 2010 01:37
Well, I did it myself with the "2d world" concept. I bent the paper and made a "portal" from one location to the other by poking a hole with a pencil.

I then forced one of the "portals" through the other one and found out what would happen to this "2d world" and the answer is:

The paper (space) around the "exit" portal rips violently and in the end you are left with two seperate "2d worlds".


Moral of the story... lets not try this in reality.


@TheComet:

I understand what you're saying now, but what forces the portals to eliminate? Assuming the had visual area (or volume) then they are not just a point of intersection, but an area of intersection. If the two portals were overlapping, would it not be similar to a mirror (as a previous poster had stated... lazerus, I believe).

It wouldn't exactly be a mirror, but more of looking at a TV screen that is also a camera, so if you held up your right hand then the person you see in the portal (yourself) would also hold up their right hand (whereas, in a mirror it would be "left" hand)

... Yeah, something like that.


The one and only,


castek
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 19:40
Just saw this image after reading this...

TheComet
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 20:08
If you are asking with that image, the answer is above...

TheComet

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 23:09
Owww.

The issue is that when/if we invent Portal technology, someone will try this, and space-time will crack...

lazerus
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 23:27
Quote: "The issue is that when/if we invent Portal technology, someone will try this, and space-time will crack."


Knowing that we'd still probably do it lol.

Peter H
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 23:45
You do realize that this might simply prove the impossibility of said portals (or maybe mobile portals).

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TheComet
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Posted: 5th Apr 2010 23:59
Why do I have the feeling my post was ignored...

TheComet

lazerus
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Posted: 6th Apr 2010 00:22
Quote: "(or maybe mobile portals)."


Could it be assumed that the orginal object that the portal was shot on be like that of a parent/child relationship? So once the rip has been torn, thier is no need for the object since the rip is in that 3d place. So it basically needs a seeding spot to start but once its grown the parent object can be moved.

But this opens up heavy air doors, where the atmosphere is dense enough for the portal to seed and become a viable.

Ughh physics...

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 7th Apr 2010 00:37
Would there have to be laws against opening portals in vacuums, because one portal in space, another on Earth, and there goes the atmosphere...

lazerus
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Posted: 7th Apr 2010 00:47
CG just solved the global warming problems!

One portal underwater one in the middle of the artic. Diffuse the water back on the ice so it freezes again. Genius!

jimmydegriz
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Posted: 7th Apr 2010 16:43 Edited at: 7th Apr 2010 16:44
the answer is the box would either have a massive implosion or would do a classic comedy moment in where it would constantly fall through itself. either way it's still a very funny out come . maybe we could think Bleach (the japanese anime not the washing stuff)

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TheComet
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Posted: 7th Apr 2010 21:39
lol, it's as if I'm not even here... I'm a ghost!

TheComet

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 7th Apr 2010 22:59
Quote: "CG just solved the global warming problems! "


Sending to Al Gore now.

budokaiman
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 02:13
Quote: "Sending to Al Gore now."

No need, he knows everything. He invented the internet.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 12:47
There's a more pressing threat Al Gore warned us about, Man-bear pig. Lock your doors and keep your kids safe. I'm super serial guys, super serial!



David R
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Posted: 8th Apr 2010 23:23 Edited at: 8th Apr 2010 23:24
Quote: "lol, it's as if I'm not even here... I'm a ghost"


I think your explanation is being ignored because it makes some big assumptions about how portals work / could work

(Or rather, it's an overly complex/detailed explanation of something, considering this tech does not exist. What's next, you'll explain why transwarp isn't possible? )

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TheComet
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 00:36
Quote: "What's next, you'll explain why transwarp isn't possible?"


That's one thing that is possible. If you look up "Bob Lazar" you can learn some interesting things about alien technology.

TheComet

lazerus
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 01:15
Yeah acting as a crack pot then starting a 'scientific' whole sale works great to attract customers.

PW Productions
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 03:07
If it was possible to have true portal effects in Garry's Mod, the demonstration would be easily accomplished. You'd simply spawn two panels, place a single portal on both, then rotate one horizontally to fit into the other containing the other portal (the demonstration is the image which castek found).

Yet, that would only prove what would happen in the programming side of reality. What would happen in non-virtual reality is impossible, since the use and/or creation of 'portals' is physically impossible at humankind's current stage in technology.

I rest my case.

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Matty H
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 15:11
Anyone seen the futurama episode were they have alternate universes in boxes? That also made my head hurt.

They solved the issue by grabbing each others boxes at exactly the same time and pulling them out of each others universe, that way they ended up with their own universe in a box, makes perfect sense really.

TheComet
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 17:30 Edited at: 9th Apr 2010 17:31
@lazerus

I'm not "acting", I'm merely describing what Carl Sagan figured out from years of study. Besides, I can't see any other explanation that makes sense...

TheComet

lazerus
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 17:46
Not you lol, im on about Carl sagan

He was acting and it proved very profitable.

TheComet
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 18:01
Quote: "Not you lol"


Oh... OK I fail...

TheComet

Bejasc3D
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 18:49
I never really played portal all that much.. and Im not one for science or physics or anything like that either, but..

What goes in at one end, come out of the other, instantly, not as a whole object?

so, if a line went through a portal, it would come out the other end. simple. if the portals are linked, and can go wherever and all that and i just completely lost myself. I have no idea what im saying anymore, i lost my train of thought.

What i was getting to though, was this

Would it constantly be getting bigger, or smaller by the nanosecond?

Maybe my brain exploded?

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Shadowtroid
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 19:07
I think it'd hit the side of the object. Like the side of the portal.

No one has thought of that?

TheComet
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 19:08
Quote: "Would it constantly be getting bigger, or smaller by the nanosecond? "


Err... What's it? Oh, you mean it by Stephen king?



And why nanosecond and not picosecond or microsecond?

TheComet

jeffhuys
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 19:23 Edited at: 9th Apr 2010 19:24
Here you go.


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The Imperfect Sheep
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 19:26
I'm not a science person, but I have an idea...

If a box with an orange portal is thrown at a blue portal that's on a wall, the matter which is thrown through the blue portal will emerge from the orange portal. In this case, the box will emerge from the portal on the box. However, due to some law or something (I may be wrong), a duplicate can't be created.

So... my guess is the box would turn itself inside out? But then there's the question of where it'll come out?



Bejasc3D
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 19:27
Woah. trippy.

And by 'it' i meant the box. (or any other object applicable)

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TheComet
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 19:33
@jeffhuys

Cool. Did you do that yourself? Did it lag at that point? That is the expected result in a virtual world.

TheComet

jeffhuys
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Posted: 9th Apr 2010 19:35 Edited at: 9th Apr 2010 19:36
Quote: "Cool. Did you do that yourself? Did it lag at that point? That is the expected result in a virtual world."


Didn't do it myself unfortunately... Trying to recreate though!
And it shouldn't lag, because they use a technique that just textures a plain after it or something (which you can disable), it doesn't render the world 100000 times or something

JLMoondog
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Posted: 10th Apr 2010 01:30
Now what would happen if you passed an object right at the point of intersection? :S


Shadowtroid
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Posted: 10th Apr 2010 02:20
Your computer would smoke, fizzle, and then explode.

JLMoondog
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Posted: 10th Apr 2010 04:36
I just want to stick my hand in it. Well with a few pints before hand...about 5 or so should do it.


lazerus
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Posted: 10th Apr 2010 13:11
Dutch courage?

I think you would ethier rip your hand apart through colliding forces or that it would be harmless.

They look more like mirrors that actual portals, so you could assume that the object passed into it partially would be mirrored endlessly. Once your fully in youd onlly see horizons and most likly get stuck.

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