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Geek Culture / Kill Piracy !!!

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B++
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 12:48 Edited at: 24th Dec 2010 12:50
Hi,
I always thought that is there any differences between an original version and a cracked(pirated) version of a game. Is it possible to detect or lock or make unplayable a cracked game. In a community, for whom I am making a Flash game (just for entertainment), posted a reply with this link :

Quote: "http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=95030"


Is anything like this is possible in DBPro?

Regards


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Fallout
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 14:21
Definitely possible. All you need to do is write some functions to analyse your game files to determine if they've been tampered with, and if so do some funky stuff in the app.

However, there's nothing to stop a really good cracker from finding the checking code and modifying it so it behaves normally. However, that's more difficult and time consuming then circumventing some simple serial/copy/cd-check etc. code, and also requires a lot more testing time (i.e. try and crack it, play the game for ages, find it does something crazy, write more crack code etc.). Therefore it's a viable technique.

ShaunRW
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 16:02
Nothing will ever fully kill piracy, only slow it down.

PAGAN_old
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 16:07
stuff like that just spawns more piracy on a more advanced level. its like trying to put out a fire by trowing flammable stuff in it. Small games dont get much piracy because they are not mainstream. stuff like dark basic, i wouldnt worry about piracy.

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
David Gervais
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 17:18 Edited at: 24th Dec 2010 17:18
the only thing that would get rid of piracy is never going to happen.. make the cost of duplicating more expensive than buying an original.. ever since the dawn of computers, it has been cheaper by 100 fold, to make a copy then buy an original..

I have always thought the selling 'recorders' and blank media too cheaply has always been the main fuel for piracy. buy a game for $50 or buy a recorder 'AND' a dozen blank media for the same price, and the recorder is reusable, so after that initial purchase the cost of 'copying' drops to a tiny fraction of the games.

my solution.. simple.. lower the costs of read-only media players, and increase the cost of the ones that are read/writable.. make 'backup systems' non-compatible with the mass media. make games on Blue ray and Never make blu-ray recording devices available to the public through retail. the low cost of consumer duplication is the main cause of piracy.

Or, make the cost of 'blank-recordable media' much higher.. a company can justify paying $10/disc when it's for backup purposes.. Joe the pirate will not find many clients if it cost him $10 (plus higher cost recordable devices) to make a copy.

I just did a quick search.. a DVD/RW internal drive goes for anywhere from $29.95 to $44.95 and blank recordable DVD's $0.31.

so for less (almost half the price of a game) you get the hardware and the recordable blank media. It's not rocket science, and it has been this way ever since the beginning of recordable devices.

and the solution is NOT imho, to lower the cost of games, it's to increase the cost of blank media. there has got to be a magic price point that will all but do away with piracy. But as long as the industry keeps making it cheaper to make a copy then there will always be piracy.

Anyways, that's my view on piracy and my view has not changed in the past 20 odd years.

Cheers!

Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 18:37 Edited at: 24th Dec 2010 18:39
The way to beat piracy is to make it so being connected to the server is necessary. Like an MMO.
But even then u will get private servers.
The best u can do is to make it hard to reverse engineer.

@David Gervais, that would just mean they would back up to a hard drive.

Smoke me a kipper, ill be back for breakfast.

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lazerus
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 18:45
Or use a way to emulate discs' and use a cheap £50 1tb drive and abuse that.

B++
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 19:11
Hmm... ... If there is no way to stop piracy, than last option left is David Gervais opinion.
Thanks, I got some new knowledge today.

Regards


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Slow Programmer
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 19:12
In the last 20 plus years software companies have spent huge amounts of money trying to stop piracy and it is more prevalent now than ever. There is no reason to believe that will change anytime soon. Just accept it is going to happen and don't annoy your paying customers with in their face obscene anti-piracy measures. It want stop pirates, but will drive your paying customers away. There are several companies that I will not not buy from anymore because of their anti-piracy schemes interfering with my use of the software I paid for.

There are two kinds of computer users. Those that use Macs and those that wish they did.
Jeku
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 19:42
I would go the "Batman Arkham Asylum" route, and upon detection of a pirated copy, it quietly removes essential parts of the game. The user doesn't know why he can't finish a level I love that idea!

If I made a commercial title today, I would probably create my own "pirate" version and mass inundate the torrents with my version. The user won't know which one is legit, because my fake ones will be the same size as the real versions, and they will be hard to detect unless run for X amount of hours when an essential move (like a double jump) is quietly removed. The best case scenario is the user will have to download 2 or 3 copies of the game, then play them all for a few hours in order to find out if his copy is the un-crippled version.


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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 19:55
who uses disks these days anyway. Maybe because of this the cost of harddrive space should be 100x more.

but check this out. what they wanna do in russia right now. This guy who is in charge of all the copywriting stuff in the country (he also composed every version of the soviet and russian national anthems- Nikita Mihalkov). anyway this guy decided he isnt getting enough money, he wants MORE! so like under pretext of fighing piracy this guy decided to impose like a 1% tax on all things that can record digital data. and by by that he isnt taking that % money just for a harddrive or memory inside of a computer. he takes it out of the price of the whole computer. and this conserns pretty much all electronics and all things that interface with electronics flash drives, cds dvds, computer parts.. metal detectors... cameras, dictophones, car stereos, almost even everything that just runs off the elictricity. now i do not support this because i am pretty sure that this is for his personal profit gains not to cover losses by piracy or anything

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
lazerus
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 21:05
Quote: "If I made a commercial title today, I would probably create my own "pirate" version and mass inundate the torrents with my version. The user won't know which one is legit, because my fake ones will be the same size as the real versions, and they will be hard to detect unless run for X amount of hours when an essential move (like a double jump) is quietly removed. The best case scenario is the user will have to download 2 or 3 copies of the game, then play them all for a few hours in order to find out if his copy is the un-crippled version."


Love it.

Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 22:49 Edited at: 24th Dec 2010 22:50
Quote: "my solution.. simple.. lower the costs of read-only media players, and increase the cost of the ones that are read/writable.. make 'backup systems' non-compatible with the mass media. make games on Blue ray and Never make blu-ray recording devices available to the public through retail. the low cost of consumer duplication is the main cause of piracy."

I thought most pirated copies of games were distributed by torrent rather than via disk these days? Which would make the distribution cost zero, of course, worsening the problem.

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Jeku
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 23:35
Quote: "anyway this guy decided he isnt getting enough money, he wants MORE!"


I've never seen a lawmaker personally receive money from new taxes


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Rampage
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Posted: 24th Dec 2010 23:40
Killing piracy is impossible. At least for single player games and stuff that doesn't need to access the internet. Ubisoft came up with a good protection thing for ac2 on pc. Which put off pirates for about 3 months before they got through. Nevertheless they got through.


Eidos!
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 04:45 Edited at: 25th Dec 2010 04:45
If you can load & run it, you can crack it.

bitJericho
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 05:20
I like Jeku's idea, which I also came up with as a possible solution.

I think the best solution though is just to keep releasing updates and make certain parts inaccessible if you don't have a legit copy. Serverside authenticated multiplayer, for example. Even if someone writes a pirate server, what player would think it's fun to play with lame cheating pirates.

Serve the paying consumer, I think is the best bet.

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flashing snall
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 05:32
Jeku, that is hilarious. Not that this has much to do with anything, but Piracy has been around for ever. Before computers, people were stealing books. Charles Dicken's Christmas Carol was released for 50 cents (ish) a week before x-mas, and got pirated like no other. Dickens was P.O'd

Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 05:51 Edited at: 25th Dec 2010 05:51
@flashing snall Piracy is as old as.... oh yeah, pirates.



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Image All
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 06:16 Edited at: 25th Dec 2010 06:16
i hate ubisoft's AC2 DRM. connectivity to the internet in order to play, and not just that, but if your connection fails your game closes (AFAIK)? what if i've got a flaky router/ISP or i don't have access to the internet, then i can't play my legally purchased game? i'd rather play a crack anyway then. i currently play a crack of FarCry 2 even though i own the game on steam, because of SecuROM, but in AC2's case i wouldn't bother purchasing a legal copy because that would make ubisoft think they've done a good job...can't have that with a DRM as bad as theirs.

but just to be clear, i don't even play AC2 because it's easy enough to just not care about the series, and plus my computer can't handle it.

Zeus
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 06:41
I was thinking *maybe* something like, once the user logs in to the game (the game would connect to the internet to retrieve information), the game itself writing to a database the computer name and the IP address for the computer it is installed on, generate a serial code using md5 with either one of those, and make that serial code a one time use only. But once a user logs into their account (only from their home network IP) they can download the game if they lost it or something of that sort. That is just my idea...

Quik
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 11:02
Quote: "Piracy is as old as.... oh yeah, pirates."


but then we are talking digital piracy, which has only been around since...
well...
long, but i would go as far as old radios, when people used to record the songs on the radio on a tape...


[Q]uik, Quiker than most
Rampage
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 11:08
@Fatal Berserker.
Biggest. Lol. Evar.


Eidos!
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 12:25 Edited at: 25th Dec 2010 12:30
Quote: "i hate ubisoft's AC2 DRM. connectivity to the internet in order to play, and not just that, but if your connection fails your game closes (AFAIK)? what if i've got a flaky router/ISP or i don't have access to the internet, then i can't play my legally purchased game? i'd rather play a crack anyway then. i currently play a crack of FarCry 2 even though i own the game on steam, because of SecuROM, but in AC2's case i wouldn't bother purchasing a legal copy because that would make ubisoft think they've done a good job...can't have that with a DRM as bad as theirs.

but just to be clear, i don't even play AC2 because it's easy enough to just not care about the series, and plus my computer can't handle it."

hmm....I did not know that. I have FarCry 2 but I can't play it and my friend told me, to play FarCry 2, I need a joy stick .


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B++
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 12:27 Edited at: 25th Dec 2010 12:28
Delete.... Sorry just reposted.


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charger bandit
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 13:12
B++: For Far Cry 2,you don't need no joystick or anything. Lol


Quik
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 13:25
I can now fully say that DRM protection is crap ass i have now experienced it.

We have no internet now, we havent had internet for a week. The only thing we have atm is a you knw "mobile internet module" 5gb/s and a limited amount of MB/month, this we are sharing on one computer until we get our normmal internet back, so i cant have it om my, rendering me unable to play DRM games.
Sure it works alright for those with good internet, but maybe someone uses internet and sometimes he looses connection to it?
and for me now, I cant play DRM games at all.
DRM is definitly not a solution against piracy, simply a punishment to the ones who should not be punished.


[Q]uik, Quiker than most
Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 13:30
The best way to beat piracy is to try and tackle it socially. Rather than technologically.

Smoke me a kipper, ill be back for breakfast.

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Quik
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 13:57
what he said^


[Q]uik, Quiker than most
Zeus
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 14:07
So nobody liked my idea?

B++
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 14:20
Quote: "The best way to beat piracy is to try and tackle it socially. Rather than technologically."

Not possible. We already tried it here. And result could become very worse. Even lost of life.

Regards


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Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 14:33
Quote: "Not possible. We already tried it here. And result could become very worse. Even lost of life."

I understand the risks of a dev/gamer going outside... WHILE the sun is up. But it is a requirement for you to be able to socialize with the outside ones.

Smoke me a kipper, ill be back for breakfast.

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 14:39
Quote: "I can now fully say that DRM protection is crap ass i have now experienced it. We have no internet now, we havent had internet for a week.
"


Ok, but let's just to plays devil advocate here for a second. Can we really blame developers/publishers for such situations, when the cause seems to be a failing with our telco's & internet providers ?






David,

Quote: " make the cost of duplicating more expensive than buying an original.. ever since the dawn of computers, it has been cheaper by 100 fold, to make a copy then buy an original.."


I remember when a blank cd was about double the cost buying and album. Nobody cared about it then, it wasn't cost effective media for home users.

Quote: " and the solution is NOT imho, to lower the cost of games, it's to increase the cost of blank media. there has got to be a magic price point that will all but do away with piracy. But as long as the industry keeps making it cheaper to make a copy then there will always be piracy."


Such scheme exists in a number of countries apparently, i'm yet to see how this benefits anyone on the artists level of the process. Lots of red tape and just more $$ for governments/middle men, that is assuming the retailers pay the tax on the goods. There's often exemptions.

Here, the government deregulated the music industry about 10 year ago. They did this under pressure from the community in order to reduce CD prices. At least that was the theory, It didn't happen. Some chains dropped perhaps a few $, most stayed the same. All it did, was increase the margin between wholesales/importers and retail chains. Because now wholesales can import CD from anywhere in the world, legally. So why order from sony/bmg Australia directly, when you can import them china ?. Cheaper for them, but no artist royalties. But it's perfectly legal.

PAGAN_old
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 14:52
@Jeku
Quote: "I've never seen a lawmaker personally receive money from new taxes "


this guy isnt a law maker. he is in charge of all copywritng stuff in russia. the head of the federal copywriting office or something (an old fat billionare he also looks kinda like the monopoly man). These taxes will go to him personally.

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
Quik
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 17:06
Quote: "Ok, but let's just to plays devil advocate here for a second. Can we really blame developers/publishers for such situations, when the cause seems to be a failing with our telco's & internet providers ?"


you are true there
but the developers cant expect every buyer to have internet, and i personally think that a singel playe game should not be expected to use internet s to say...

sorry if hard to understand this keyboard is ccrap (ie C and V buttons are gone and just a small cylinder to press, O and P is hard to press... S aswell..


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Rampage
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Posted: 25th Dec 2010 23:33
I own AC2 on 360. So I never had the DRM problem with it.
But to be honest. If I did own it on PC. I would probably install the crack just to be able to not play it online. Especially here in my little corner of the world where unlimited internet is $80's a month.


Eidos!
Libervurto
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Posted: 26th Dec 2010 01:22
The whole mega-security battle against piracy reminds me of airport security and I hate flying because of it. Why is it okay to molest millions of passengers to catch one or two drug smugglers or terrorists. There's always a way around security so it doesn't even work. It's just extra hassle for law-abiding citizens. If people want to copy a game or bomb a plane and they're smart enough they'll find a way. The only people these measures are stopping are incompetent criminals. I remember when games had a CD key that you entered upon installation to verify the copy, why was this not sufficient security?


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Indicium
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Posted: 26th Dec 2010 01:32
Quote: " I remember when games had a CD key that you entered upon installation to verify the copy, why was this not sufficient security?"


All it takes is somebody to upload the files with the key, it's like putting a lock on your door and giving away the key.

PAGAN_old
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Posted: 26th Dec 2010 07:04
Quote: "Especially here in my little corner of the world where unlimited internet is $80's a month."
Holy crap! where do you live???? i have the fastest internet on the price list with unlimited and i pay 20 bucks a month. and i recentley found out that i have 2 fiberoptics companies who ran the line trough my apartment. still need to try those out.

games are just getting more expensive because they need to pay the programmers to develop advanced anti piracy software. Which kinda reminds me that most things that are more expensive for one reason or the other, these most things cost exactly the same in the manufacturing process. 3 ghz cpu core is no more expensive than a 2 ghz cpu core because the manufacturing process is not accurate and they find out the true frequency of a cpu only after they stress test it and give it a label 3ghz, 2.5 ghz etc. same with internet speeds, in the end all that gives you acess to the internet is just wires, it dosent cost the company anything to have fast or slow internet or how much bandwidth, all those things are just labels the more conveniet for the person=more expensive. some things in manufacturing and services really do have an actual difference in price but usually its a very small and theyu inflate that difference for profit.

wow sorry i got carried away again, i just had a good day filled with positive energy and there are just so many thoughts racing trough my head that i wanna express and one thought leads to another and you know the rest. but i am really lonley i have noone to talk to so i talk to you guys. sorry for the offtop it was the whole $80 for internet that reminded me of this and i felt like i wanted to express my thoughts on that

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 26th Dec 2010 09:04
$80 would be cheap here. Many cities here, simply don't have the infrastructure. Hopefully the fibre optic upgrade will change this, but that'll only get rolled out in high popularization areas. Like the cable TV.. So it'll years before it's a given for home users in this country.

lazerus
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Posted: 26th Dec 2010 13:51
Quote: "The whole mega-security battle against piracy reminds me of airport security and I hate flying because of it. Why is it okay to molest millions of passengers to catch one or two drug smugglers or terrorists."


There only middle and small fry aswell, just carrying on the analagy. People who pirate and resell pirate editions of games for a living do not go to the local store and pick up a CD pack, they probably import from china or elsewhere in bulk.

Also there was a huge storm over ISP's monitoring internet usage since it infringed on some human rights. Theres a bill trying to be passed here in the uk where companies will have the right to withdrawel internet use for indefinatly without evidence or proof of piracy and it would cost a whole lot of money to have a hearing/reviewed. Say if you downloaded the new WOW or LOTR games 10gb'ish each, that could get your connection fragged. Downloading patches, streaming through spotifiy can be seen as downloading constsantly. So yeah, everyones going about it the wrong way.

B++
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Posted: 26th Dec 2010 13:58
Quote: ""Especially here in my little corner of the world where unlimited internet is $80's a month.""

Mine is also same.


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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 26th Dec 2010 15:16
this is australia? weird, i thought australia had all its internets by now. russian internet (in moscow i dont know how it is in the rest of the country) really existed for just 5 years. thats when it began to really spread. the internet started here in the late 90s and became popular in the early 2000s but back then there was no infrustructure. everyone was on dialup and DSL and stuff. they charged the internet for minutes. to pay for the internet you had to buy these cards with internet acess codes on them that are good for x amount of minutes. people here call this era the "hunger years" camparing it to 1920s-30s when there was food shortage and food rations were only given out on cards. cards for food=cards for internet lol. but recentley the infrustructure here is growing like crazy.

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
Jeku
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Posted: 26th Dec 2010 19:11
Here's a great anti-piracy method:

To elaborate more on my earlier post on techniques developers can employ to mess with pirates. Remember those videos that were circulating the internet a few years ago, where you are watching an innocent video or playing an innocent game then BAM a demon or something freaky was in your face making a loud noise? That would work!

Just have that happen every so often, in random places


Senior Web Developer - Nokia
Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 26th Dec 2010 20:51 Edited at: 26th Dec 2010 20:52
@Jeku




Smoke me a kipper, ill be back for breakfast.

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dab
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Posted: 26th Dec 2010 20:57
I don't think people are realizing that pirates/hackers/whatever can remove any web check and have it always return the proper code. As someone said on this board, if it can be run, it can be hacked.

I also don't understand the point of handing out a game with missing parts. Once they realize that the game has missing parts, won't they just pirate the actual game?

I agree that pirates suck, but the only thing we can do about them is complain. Other than that, we can just keep investing money in anti-piracy, or carry on with the cloud... Which not many people like to begin with

Fatal Berserker
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Posted: 26th Dec 2010 20:59
Were trying to prevent people from cracking games, but to delay the suppliers and annoy the illegal down loaders. Like i said, you need to tackle piracy socially.

Smoke me a kipper, ill be back for breakfast.

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Ocho Geek
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Posted: 26th Dec 2010 22:48
Quote: "i hate ubisoft's AC2 DRM."


I've never seen a reason to hate it. It might not have stopped piracy, but It really isn't obtrusive at all. It also allowed ubisoft to have a more relaxed license. Its FINE, stop complaining

Ocho Geek - Pretending to be a useful contribution to the forums since 2005
Quik
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Posted: 27th Dec 2010 12:54
Ocho, think about it
it is an singel player game
which can only be played with an constant internet connection..
what if i dont have internet or if i have a limited internet?


[Q]uik, Quiker than most
CoffeeGrunt
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Oct 2007
Location: England
Posted: 27th Dec 2010 14:17
It happened with Virgin Media over here. They gave a bunch of info on pirates to a law firm who sued most of 'em. Within a week or two they lost 40% of their customers, and shut themselves up...

The more mainstream something is, the more it gets pirated, but I don't think infinity ward shed many tears if CoD Mod 2 got pirated. Nor Cheryl Cole after their latest multi-million selling album. They get enough from sales to subsidise the costs anyway, it's not like piracy's gunna put them out of business.

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