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Geek Culture / My take on the U.S. Supreme Court Case regarding violent video games.

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Indicium
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2011 02:11
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Heh, Schooled.

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Quik
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2011 02:29
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Quote: "Actually GTA is rated M so only 17+ year old kids can buy the game. So if Mommy and Daddy let their 10 year old play GTA it's their fault if the kid goes on to be a serial killer."


thats my point darn it....

and for the record, I am a man.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2011 11:02 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2011 11:04
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I think the 978 bill is absolutely insane. It means you could go to JAIL for embedding a YouTube video, putting a song in the background of your video, lip syncing to a song, streaming any video game content, even in game footage. INSANE!!!!

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bitJericho
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2011 14:07
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Someone needs to throw the MPAA in jail.

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Quik
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2011 16:29
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Quote: "I think the 978 bill is absolutely insane. It means you could go to JAIL for embedding a YouTube video, putting a song in the background of your video, lip syncing to a song, streaming any video game content, even in game footage. INSANE!!!!"


wrong thread? x)

and for the record, I am a man.

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BMacZero
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2011 23:45
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Correlation =/= Causation, but it shows that at least video games sure aren't making it worse.

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Cormorant5
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Posted: 4th Jul 2011 17:07
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Quote: "If I can't buy a game I want, I just get my parents to buy it for me,"


Exactly. And my parents don't look at that crap and if they do they don't bother to ask if I can handle it. I played my first M game at age 9 and I had nightmares for weeks. Don't say my parents are bad parents, I'm a good kid and they trusted me. I think that ratings are okay to guide you, because apparently that helps some people, but you shouldn't me required to be in that age group to get it.

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Quik
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Posted: 4th Jul 2011 18:07
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Quote: "Exactly. And my parents don't look at that crap and if they do they don't bother to ask if I can handle it. I played my first M game at age 9 and I had nightmares for weeks. Don't say my parents are bad parents, I'm a good kid and they trusted me. I think that ratings are okay to guide you, because apparently that helps some people, but you shouldn't me required to be in that age group to get it."


but then the parents shouldnt complain about having little controll over their kids, iam saying this because for example, here in sweden we have had movies banned, because the parents said they had so little controll over what their kids watched: if the parents have to buy you the game, then they have more controll and then they dont have anything to say about it later.

and for the record, I am a man.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 4th Jul 2011 18:23
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Quote: "but then the parents shouldnt complain about having little controll over their kids, iam saying this because for example, here in sweden we have had movies banned, because the parents said they had so little controll over what their kids watched: if the parents have to buy you the game, then they have more controll and then they dont have anything to say about it later."


My kid doesn't leave the house unless he has my say so. My kid doesn't play games unless he has my say so. How can a parent not have enough control? It seems to me that these parents don't know how to be parents.

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Quik
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Posted: 4th Jul 2011 18:33
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Quote: "My kid doesn't leave the house unless he has my say so. My kid doesn't play games unless he has my say so. How can a parent not have enough control? It seems to me that these parents don't know how to be parents."


exactly what i think, but since there is such a huge thing apparantly, why not give it to them? I mean honestly, how is it bad to not let people under the age of 18 (or 17 depending on where u live) buy games without parents permission? All you need to do is bring your mom to the store, which you most likely would anyway, unless you prefer busses, ask "can i get this game?" hand here the money

and for those parents who doesnt want their kids to play F.E.A.R, then its a good thing for them.

and for the record, I am a man.

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Cormorant5
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Posted: 5th Jul 2011 04:09
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They aren't complaining about their control. I'm just saying it shouldn't be required to be in that age group, but there should be optional ratings for those parents who feel the need.

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Isocadia
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Posted: 5th Jul 2011 09:27
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The problem is, if my parents had to go to the store to buy a game with me, I would never get those games. Not because they are to scary, but because my parents cba to go to the store to get it. I think that if I buy a game, I should be the one buying it, not my mom. Also, I think that there should be 1 group only, namely 13+ games, and only if they contain some kind of nudity like DA or really scary material. Only that group. I mean SC2 was rated 16+ ffs, that's one of the least provocative games i've played. *spoiler*


Long story short, I don't think there should be a difference between 16 and 18 etc. If you are below 13 you probably can't handle scary games. If you are over 13 and can't handle them you're a little mommy's boy who's still scared off the dark.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 5th Jul 2011 11:00
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Quote: "They aren't complaining about their control. I'm just saying it shouldn't be required to be in that age group, but there should be optional ratings for those parents who feel the need."


If there's no enforcement then parents don't have the control.



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IanM
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Posted: 5th Jul 2011 15:35
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If parents believe that they actually have 'control' then they are living in a dream land - you can't control your little angel when they are at a friends house playing the latest 16+ game.

What you can do though is talk to your child about what those kind of games are like, tell them the reasons why you think it isn't a good idea for them to play those games, and then respect their opinions.

Y'know ... actually be a parent rather than leave it to government to be the parent for you.

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Cormorant5
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Posted: 5th Jul 2011 17:59
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Quote: "If parents believe that they actually have 'control' then they are living in a dream land - you can't control your little angel when they are at a friends house playing the latest 16+ game.

What you can do though is talk to your child about what those kind of games are like, tell them the reasons why you think it isn't a good idea for them to play those games, and then respect their opinions.

Y'know ... actually be a parent rather than leave it to government to be the parent for you."


I can agree with that.

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Indicium
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Posted: 5th Jul 2011 20:04
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You can join the army at the age of 16, but you must be 18 to buy Call of Duty.

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Cormorant5
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Posted: 5th Jul 2011 20:14
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xplosys
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Posted: 5th Jul 2011 20:33
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Quote: "You can join the army at the age of 16, but you must be 18 to buy Call of Duty."


Interesting. What army is this? Do they allow 16 year olds in combat?

Concerning the US...
By federal law (10 U.S.C., 505), the minimum age for enlistment in the United States Military is 17 (with parental consent) and 18 (without parental consent).

Brian.

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 5th Jul 2011 20:35
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What I want to know is this - if there are age restrictions on movies and games, why are there no restrictions on theatre or artwork?

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xplosys
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Posted: 5th Jul 2011 20:36
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Quote: "What I want to know is this - if there are age restrictions on movies and games, why are there no restrictions on theatre or artwork?"


There is restriction on theater in the US. I don't know about art...

Brian.

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Cormorant5
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Posted: 5th Jul 2011 21:07 Edited at: 5th Jul 2011 21:11
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Quote: "What I want to know is this - if there are age restrictions on movies and games, why are there no restrictions on theatre or artwork?
"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_P4lJD_OPI

That kind of talks about that somewhere...

EDIT: check 0:58

sorry, its not really on topic, but I do like that video

ANOTHER EDIT: by the way, i do remember seeing a penis at... what, age 7? in a statue. guess where, a child aimed amusement park!

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Quik
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Posted: 5th Jul 2011 21:25
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I really dont think restrictions for <nudity> on art should be affected -> thats my opinion on it. especially not statues lol.

regarding this:
Quote: "You can join the army at the age of 16, but you must be 18 to buy Call of Duty."


what are you talking about? in sweden its 18, iam fairly sure its 17 or 18 in usa or any other country i know of...

and for the record, I am a man.

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Indicium
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 00:45
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It's 16 in the UK.

I don't see the problem with nudity either, does society want to raise children to be scared of the opposite sex?

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Quik
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 00:48
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as long as it isnt.. sexually intended then there shouldnt be a problem lol

and for the record, I am a man.

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Cormorant5
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 00:48
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I'm fine with kids seeing such parts of the body early on, but we teach these to kids as "Private parts". We cover them up, give them silly names, and refuse to talk about the opposite sex's pubic area. So being taught that showing my penis is bad, seeing it in public confused me.

Anyway, that's off topic.

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xplosys
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 02:31
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Quote: "It's 16 in the UK. "


"With parental consent". Just like buying a video game.

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mr_d
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 06:31
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Quote: "Quote: "It's 16 in the UK. "

"With parental consent". Just like buying a video game. "


I don't know about you, but don't you see just a teeny weeny itty bitty little difference between able to actually go out and potentially kill other people and get killed yourself, as opposed to maybe having potentially a few nightmares?

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xplosys
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 15:25
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Yes. Having actually served in the Army, I can tell you that there is a world of difference between being trained and disciplined in combat, and playing a video game. But that's not the point. The point is that you need your parents oversight until you reach the age of consent. Statistics, your feelings, what you think you know and anything else doesn't matter.

Until you have children, you cannot understand the other side of the equation. You just don't have the experience. In the case of video games, the power is where it should be; in the hands of the parent. The parent can decide, based on experience and having full knowledge of their child, what is appropriate and what is not. The law in this case aids, but not restricts the parent from allowing the child to play what he or she considers appropriate.

It's a shame that someone other than parents see fit to make such rules, but considering some parents today, I can't really hate the decision.

Brian.

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mr_d
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 16:02 Edited at: 6th Jul 2011 16:21
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Quote: "Statistics, your feelings, what you think you know and anything else doesn't matter."

So in effect; facts and figures, studies and surveys, and basically the truth doesn't matter...
Quote: "Until you have children, you cannot understand the other side of the equation. You just don't have the experience."

Possibly, in terms of feelings and the need to protect them from any perceived harm. But also, I hate it when people always play the "if you're not in my situation, then you wouldn't understand" card as I believe it is perfectly possible that this can happen - this is what empathy is all about, as well as experience and intelligence (i.e. I don't need to hit myself over the head with a hammer to know that it hurts, even though I've never done this before and had this experience).
Quote: "the power is where it should be; in the hands of the parent"

this is the whole debate; and that is only your own opinion...
Quote: "based on experience and having full knowledge of their child"

any parent that believes they have "full knowledge" of their child/children are living in a fantasy world (and if you really do believe this, then I'm afraid to be the one to burst your bubble).
Quote: "but considering some parents today, I can't really hate the decision"

although I agree with this; it seems you are arguing both sides of the coin, as this is directly opposite to what you just said in in your last paragraph:
Quote: "The parent can decide, based on experience and having full knowledge of their child, what is appropriate and what is not."

You can either have it one way or the other; you can't have it both ways...

Finally, I'm not saying you are wrong, or how you choose to raise your kids is wrong (or even those other parents we just mentioned are wrong; I'm not the Big Guy, so I have no right to judge).
All I'm saying is that when people start making laws to support their own beliefs of "How Things Ought To Be", then that's when we all lose a small piece of Freedom. And if this mindset continues, eventually we won't have any left - with no-one left to blame except ourselves...What was once a Right becomes Unlawful, or at least a Privilege granted only with mountains of paperwork, a fair bit of money, and obedience.
You may say that that last bit may make me sound like a bit of a nutter/anarchist, etc. Even if it does, please don't disregard the message because (of what you think) of the messenger.

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Quik
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 16:17 Edited at: 6th Jul 2011 16:19
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Quote: "Possibly, in terms of feelings and the need to protect them from any perceived harm. But also, I hate it when people always play the "if you're not in my situation, ten you wouldn't understand" card as I believe it is perfectly possible that this can happen - this is what empathy is all about, and intelligence (i.e. I don't need to hit myself over the head with a hammer to know that it hurts, even though I've never done this before and had this experience).
"


I do agree, however in the whole having a children situation: there is basicly no way for you to understand those feelings, unless you actually are a parent

edit:
Quote: "Quote: "the power is where it should be; in the hands of the parent"
this is the whole debate; and that is only your own opinion..."

do you mind expanding the point of why the parents shouldnt have this power?
Quote: "any parent that believes they have "full knowledge" of their child/children are living in a fantasy world (and if you really do believe this, then I'm afraid to be the one to burst your bubble)."

definitly.

and for the record, I am a man.

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Indicium
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 16:23
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Quote: "do you mind expanding the point of why the parents shouldnt have this power?"


Possibly not the point Mr d wanted to make, but what makes you think all parents should have power? There are lots of kids all over the world who are neglected by their parents, and they're pretty powerless because their parents have control. I believe from the age you are responsible for your own actions ( which i believe is 12 in the UK ) then you should be able to carry out actions as you see fit, not your parents.

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Quik
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 16:28
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but then, if you are to do it that way, then i also think 12 year olds should be punished for their illegal actions: if they steal something, they pay and not their parents, because the parents arent responsible right?

and for the record, I am a man.

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mr_d
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 16:30
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sorry, you must have posted while I was editing my own post a bit...
Quote: "do you mind expanding the point of why the parents shouldnt have this power?"

Power used (and abused) through force is tyranny.
Any good parent shouldn't need to rely on force, but through communication, education, explaining the possible consequences, and conveying their own views and concerns to their children, they should be able to convince them that that isn't a good idea and not what they would like for them.
That's a side point only, as my main argument is against having laws in place to enforce this, and basically just trying to replace "good parenting" and all the above by "Because I say so" or "because that's the law".

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 16:34 Edited at: 6th Jul 2011 16:36
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Quote: "but then, if you are to do it that way, then i also think 12 year olds should be punished for their illegal actions:"


Indeed. That is the whole point of this:

age of criminal responsibility

Edit Added quotation to clarify.
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Cormorant5
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 16:39
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Quote: "Any good parent shouldn't need to rely on force, but through communication, education, explaining the possible consequences, and conveying their own views and concerns to their children, they should be able to convince them that that isn't a good idea and not what they would like for them.
"


Pfft. Good luck with that.

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mr_d
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 16:44
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Quote: "Pfft. Good luck with that."

And if that still doesn't work...then (a) you're not a "good parent", or (b) your child has a mind of their own and would like to exercise their right to choose what is best for them.
(c) (probably your choice) - smack them on their behinds repeatedly until they agree to see things your way.

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Quik
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 17:52
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some people here obviously have no experience being a parent what so ever and are just saying stuff because they think their parents are unfair to them

why yes, parents vary: some are total deuche bags and some are angels, offcourse, thats the way it has always been. but thats certanly not an excuse to remove parent "laws" at all, yes, a child at the age of >10< can chose which parent to live with, in case of a divorce: ofcourse, the child has EQUAL RIGHTS BY LAW to both parents, thats a LAW and should be there: remove it and the parents can take the child and move to alaska with it. The parent can punish the child in forms of "curfew" (not at all sure about that word, from google translate: not allowing the child to go outside), computer forbids, etc. The parents can forbid you to go and watch a movie, etc why? because otherwise we would have kids who are totally uncontrollable, who just does whatever they want, why? "because you have no power of me".
If we didnt have the law on our side then the kids could just go to the police and say: "iam sorry, my father is trying to be a father, please arrest him and let me do whatever i want to."

Really WHY shouldnt a parent have the right to tell their kids NO you cannot buy that movie/game/softairgun, NO you cannot go and see SAW with your friends: I KNOW you are sensitive to that kind of stuff.

however now iam pretty sure any kid would lie and say naaay iam just gonna go watch barbie. Hence why i think age limitations should be as obvious on games as it is on movies, or atleast were. People are certanly differently affected by it, and why yes the vast majority isnt at all easily scared, or easily get mindly scarred that is not a reason to take the lower count into the equation.

I know I have probably formulated myself like an real shoe here but still, if there is any complications just ask...

Quote: "Any good parent shouldn't need to rely on force, but through communication, education, explaining the possible consequences, and conveying their own views and concerns to their children, they should be able to convince them that that isn't a good idea and not what they would like for them."


what part of: every child is different do you not understand? i have said it before: just because i have told my child since birth that NO you can not go into the scary forest with lions it doesnt mean that the child isnt curious about it: quite the opposite really.

and for the record, I am a man.

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xplosys
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 18:04
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Quote: "All I'm saying is that when people start making laws to support their own beliefs of "How Things Ought To Be", then that's when we all lose a small piece of Freedom."


Absolutely. I always give way to individual responsibility and liberty first. I just wish everyone would live up to that responsibility. In a society where people get used to someone else making their decisions and taking care of them over an extended period of time, they loose the will and ability to take care of themselves. Therefore, I understand the law created to protect children (even though I don't believe the motives are always what they're claimed or perceived to be). I don't like it, but I understand it.

Obviously, a parent will never know everything a child thinks and does, but it's their job and they are in the best possible position to do it. The alternative is for someone else to do it. You can't have it both ways either.

Brian.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 18:49
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While they may not be proven to be absolutely effective, I see absolutely no reason for the age limitations to not be enforced. I'm guessing that most that are against it are still minors.



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Quik
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 20:01
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in sweden we cant even buy stuff online (if we are under 18) unless we go to the bank and do some stuff, offcourse, our parents might already have done that stuff beforehand, but that stuff is totally in our parents controll: and i see no wrong in it =/

and for the record, I am a man.

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MaskedMakrel
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Posted: 12th Jul 2011 07:09
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@Benjamin

It could be that in trying to meet the restrictions requirements, game companies censor their games to gain access to a wider market. This would impact those over 18 as well as those under 18.

Likewise, I see plenty of complaints about the ratings systems from adult gamers in places like AUS, which is much more restrictive.
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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 12th Jul 2011 07:44
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It's only restrictive in Australia because there is currently no R18 classification for Video Games here. So anything falling that side of the line, will get refused classifcation.


Hmm, I wonder what's coming in 2011?
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