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Geek Culture / Unlimited Detail Technology

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Thraxas
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 13:33
Quote: " She'll do you a mean scone if you win her."


With cream, jam and cup of tea?

Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 13:37
Quote: "With cream, jam and cup of tea?"


Earl Grey my good man! Only the very best.

Red Eye
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 14:28 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2011 14:39
Quote: "And in fact they both have valid points, the video is probably real, but being able to animate point cloud data is just a whole different story to rendering it. So I doubt it will be a replacement for polygons any time soon."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF8A4bsfKH8
(fake or not)

Quote: "Maybe you should take your own advice, there was no need to go off like that."


Maybe not best time of my day to post yesterday, but there was a need actually, as alot of people say stuff nowadays that just doesnt make sense, at all. They dont consider the tech behind many things created and posted on the forums while making the statement that they do or/and know everything about it. So therefore, read and then if you dislike the post by then, comment your constructive critic.

I understand the scepticism ( as i said before ), and I too am sceptic about this technology, but I am refering to peoples "thinking".

Van B
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 15:14
Quote: "Actually, the tech imports polygonal models, which means that models would still be deisgned in 3ds, zbrush, mudbox, maya, or whichever suite the artist wanted. The difference being that they would not be limited by the poly count."


A long long time ago, before DBPro, Lee made a demo showing DarkBasic classics ability to do mesh deform animation. What he did was exported the frames from an animated model as individual models, then switched between them. People pointed and laughed because that is not mesh deform animation, that's lots of different meshes, and it's not too practical.
I think that video shows the exact same thing, a little bird that probably doesn't have that many points to it, with a short animation loop. That does not proove that it can handle complex animation by any means, it prooves that it can switch between point cloud data sets. If it does use a proper bone structure, then how about some details on how many points it uses, or why it looks so grissly, or why there isn't a close up of the animation. It's a smoke screen to hold off the doubters.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 15:20
well I was originally going to say something canny like... well this is feasable if they were to implement it into an ON-LIVE sort of environment where it was then simply streamed out to players and so they were able to be immersed into this high detail... erm unlimited detail world... other than that this could never possibly come to home computing for the average Joe Average [as mentioned before]

however I then thought to myself... a whole cluster of GPU's [by guess] just to host a server for lets say 128 gamers??? just doesnt seem fessable... at least not cost wise... but just my thoughts so far and what came to mind after reading all these emails from these posts...

Whats your gig? think I might be right they might have thought to use it in a service such as On-Live??? [and going off topic... whatever happened to On-Live anyway? its hidden from the news for some time now...

TheComet
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 15:34
Quote: "It's a smoke screen to hold off the doubters."


It's not holding me off I hate it that they aren't showing more detailed info... All I can gather from the video is "this technology is great, it looks better, buy our **** so we can be rich"

GIVE US MORE INFO

I don't believe this will work.

TheComet

BiggAdd
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 15:52 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2011 15:55
Quote: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF8A4bsfKH8
(fake or not)"


You've linked a video of a single object, which has an incredibly choppy animation cycle. I don't know how that is supposed to reinforce your argument?

Animation on point cloud data is possible, but not at that scale and it won't be as smooth and fast as polygon animation.
And thats what people were saying, they'll believe it to be a game engine tech when they see the animation (as in the level of animation games have today).

Ocho Geek
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 16:22
Quote: "But in honesty, every CoD, Halo and other mainstream game thread devolves into the argument that "every FPS is the same and all you do is shoot stuff!"

My God! It's so true!"


Couldn't gaming be so much more


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Quik
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 16:41
Quote: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF8A4bsfKH8
(fake or not)
"


thats also very long ago since that video was released, but whats the backround story? how long did it take? how many vortexes are it? and how many frames? how many can it show on screen at the same time?

and why cant they show that with the rest of the stuff? As in the island

and for the record, I am a man.

Libervurto
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 20:18
What's the point in all this pre-emptive bashing? Shouldn't we just wait and see where this thing goes, it certainly looks more impressive than last time.
It will be interesting to see how animations work, but hopefully we wont have to wait another year!

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 20:24
Quote: "Couldn't gaming be so much more"


And FPS will always be a game that involves shooting, same as a racing game will invariably involve a set track and some opponents or a stopwatch.

I love the fact that I've now been around long enough to have seen this last year, and noticed no actual change.

They say they spent the last year making that island? I could probably hand-model better with polygons given that timescale, and I'm no artist.

Also the argument that polygon to voxel conversion is feasible is silly. Sure if my polygon model is all flat surfaces, then the importer will naturally place hundreds of tiny dots to make a...flat surface.

Quik
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 20:36 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2011 20:41
Quote: "Also the argument that polygon to voxel conversion is feasible is silly. Sure if my polygon model is all flat surfaces, then the importer will naturally place hundreds of tiny dots to make a...flat surface. "


but if you were to make an human being, then you could infact pull in ALOT MORE details and not care, but then comes the animation problem...

You see i can definitly see this as enviroment, like rocks, mountains etc, because they DONT NEED TO BE ANIMATED, also if iam not too off track: making interactive damage with say, if i hit an mountain with my sledge then with voxels iam sure you can more easily make it destructable than with polygons? I think i've seen like a simple OLD voxel project do that.

If thats the case then iam sure we could essentially have this as our new kind of eviroments, providing its not a scam and project doesnt get as big as notch stated.

edit:
Quote: "providing its not a scam and project doesnt get as big as notch stated."


with that i meant filesize

and for the record, I am a man.

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 20:46 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2011 20:47
As a concept I still find this interesting... Don't think it really matters if this one gets up or not really, but somebody will sure take up the challenge. http://www.atomontage.com/

Red Eye
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 21:10 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2011 21:18
@Kevin: You made my day!

Quote: "I don't know how that is supposed to reinforce your argument?"


I did not say that it aint a hoax whatsoever. I made my statement which wasnt refering to UD.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 21:22
@Quik

The issue is attention. Character models have all the high-poly modelling, refined shaders and complex animation tech because they're what the player focuses on.

If the environment becomes more eye-catching and interesting than the AI populating it, then it isn't as dynamic and interesting.

Ocho Geek
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 21:24
what, like bulletstorm?


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Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 21:37
Quote: "If the environment becomes more eye-catching and interesting than the AI populating it, then it isn't as dynamic and interesting."


True, but if the terrain were rendered much more efficiently it'd be possible to give the characters much more detail.



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RedneckRambo
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 21:45
Quote: "You see i can definitly see this as enviroment, like rocks, mountains etc, because they DONT NEED TO BE ANIMATED, also if iam not too off track: making interactive damage with say, if i hit an mountain with my sledge then with voxels iam sure you can more easily make it destructable than with polygons? I think i've seen like a simple OLD voxel project do that.
"

I completely agree. Some may find it a useless tech to be able to count blades of real looking grass and dirt, but I for one would find it incredibly amazing. A polygonal/unlimited detail engine would be remarkable IMO. Ground, trees, mountains, buildings, etc generally don't move and/or have animations(BF Bad Company aside however.) The world around you in a video game would have taken an infinite step to realism.

Quik
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 21:48
Quote: "trees, mountains, buildings, etc generally don't move and/or have animations"


what about the leaves?

and for the record, I am a man.

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 21:59
I said generally for a reason

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 22:10
The other thing is that there has to be a catch somewhere, if it were truly possible to have unlimited detail tech then why haven't we seen practical applications or efforts from other companies?

I mean it runs faster in real-time, fair enough. But what about filesize of models in this format, or time required to model? I plain and simply cannot see a magical, flawless technology like this waiting for so long to be developed.

cyril
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 22:10
I don't think this voxel technology wouldn't be practical for normal in-game use, because at the end of the day, you'll never be able to see all this detail up close to notice any of the detail anyway, yet alone stop to look at the graphics if there too much action on-screen.

What people will notice is artistic set pieces or landmarks

On top of this Computers now a days can render around 1/2 a million polygons on-screen and with optimisation we can have a few millions in a map with around 100,000 to 200,000 on screen at any time. And with shaders and environmental baking we can bake lost detail into the polygon, we already have enough detail with the technology we have.
Quik
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 22:34
Not at all sure how you can say it wouldnt be, if we discount the filessize that MIGHT be massive, we simply dont know that yet, if we discount that then it is ONLY positive: we no longer would have to use normal mapping on static objects, since they would already have all that on them, in physical form, i mean we are basicly halvering the PROCESS of making the enviroment, WHILE making it look better and also increasing the way the player could interact to it: the possibilities are endless, but yes, i too am skeptical, but iam also positive about it: I WANT THIS TO BE GOOD.

and for the record, I am a man.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2011 22:46
True. I can't just pull myself past this skepticism. If this is so good, why don't we already have it?

Ocho Geek
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Posted: 4th Aug 2011 01:08 Edited at: 4th Aug 2011 01:10
Just saw this... it's a big number

1.3 of those wonderful sterlings


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Eminent
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Posted: 4th Aug 2011 06:00
5 bucks says they disappear with the 2 million in hand.


Inflictive
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Posted: 4th Aug 2011 08:20
I don't see why rotation would be so hard. I mean, voxels are like 3d pixels right? So open up Gimp or photoshop, select some stuff... and rotate it! The software automatically moves some pixels around, blends some, etc. to make your result look like you just rotated the source, but on a pixel level much different.

If that makes sense =P

Van B
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Posted: 4th Aug 2011 09:53
It's quite different with 3D points, with 2D, you'd just translate the 2D position for rotation, then sample the original image to get pixel colours.

With 3D rotation, the sheer number of points is the problem. If an object has 100,000 points (a small object!), then that's 100,000 rotations as opposed to the polygonal equivalent, maybe 1000 polygons. I don't even want to think about the math involved in a skeletal animation on a point cloud, like multiply the number of calculations needed by the number of bones that might affect a single point. Moving voxels or offsetting them is something that can be programmed into the engine, but scaling and rotation is a major obstacle. Voxelstein (the voxel version of Wolfenstein) uses big voxels for the character, like the guys made out of spheres almost, looks terrible but at least it's movement.

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Fallout
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Posted: 4th Aug 2011 10:25
That big number was scary. I checked the website too to see if it was legit, and they have indeed been graced with those funds. Maybe that's the way forward? Come up with an idea that looks like it may work, but obviously it won't, then ask the government for money. Governments know nothing about anything!

Eminent
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Posted: 4th Aug 2011 17:21
Yep, checked CA's site and lookie lookie, 2 million dollars granted.


Dar13
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Posted: 4th Aug 2011 17:38
Just thought I should throw this out there:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkn6ubbp1SE

Quik
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Posted: 4th Aug 2011 17:50 Edited at: 4th Aug 2011 17:53
it has 3m voxels and yet it looks like any model with 10k-15k polies in today?

and edit:

not at all saying notch is right about this! but...
Quote: "Animated voxels:

* Holy crap, people sent me videos of this actually being done!
* I was wrong!
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkn6ubbp1SE
* (But please note that just that single animated character runs at 36 fps)"


and for the record, I am a man.

Ocho Geek
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Posted: 4th Aug 2011 18:59
15k polies, could easily take up 1m pixels on screen


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DJ Almix
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Posted: 4th Aug 2011 23:01
http://www.atomontage.com/?id=dev_blog

Everyone should REALLY check that out.

[center]
Ocho Geek
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 00:14
We've all checked it out... I think it's been posted twice here at least. AND on notch's blog, which anybody who plays minecraft probably reads

In short, We've seen it


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heyufool1
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 00:20
Quote: "In short, We've seen it"

I haven't seen it

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 00:24
They said you could convert from polygons into voxels in real time, i wonder if that is how they store all the data?

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 00:46
No sorry...that just can't be feasible. It's like changing the format of the models during the game so that it saves space by compressing them or something.

Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 01:34 Edited at: 5th Aug 2011 01:34
I think they just have crappy PR

[edit]
"Well of course if we all hate them then their public relations are crapppy!"


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DJ Almix
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 01:45
Quote: "We've all checked it out... I think it's been posted twice here at least. AND on notch's blog, which anybody who plays minecraft probably reads

In short, We've seen it "


Some of us don't worship Notch as a god

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 06:29
Hmmm, i think i have spotted something. The demo runs fine when everything is repetitious, but when you have real scanned rocks, the framerate seems a bit choppy at 5:50 in the video. They say forgive them for the repetitious graphics, but IMO, that's just an excuse to hide the fact that it cant really render a lot of different things at once... Anyone agree with me?

Ocho Geek
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 14:06 Edited at: 5th Aug 2011 14:18
Quote: "They said you could convert from polygons into voxels in real time, i wonder if that is how they store all the data?"


Well they're claiming they're NOT using voxels, so they've either made an actual point-bit converter, or they're fobbing us off with voxels.
As a note though, wouldn't you see square artifacts if this were a voxel engine?

EDIT: New Gallery page is up, with some better quality pictures than in the video


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Van B
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 14:23
A lot of voxel systems are square for convenience sake, there's a few variations, I think those are point clouds, so more like little atoms, not fixed to a 3D grid like traditional voxels.
The rendering of the point clouds, well the USP of this system really is the way that it decides what colour the pixel should be. For the 'search algorithm' to be fast, it would rely on some sort of indexing, and the minute you do that, you limit what the system can actually do. It's probably great at rendering this data in a fixed environment, no movement, no animation blah blah blah. Something moves, and it affects the index, the index is probably massive as it is - the whole house of cards comes crumbling down. That's why this engine has very limited use IMO, there are probably game ideas that would work nicely, but it's not exactly the sort of games that people play in great numbers.

Either way, as people keep saying, movement is a major hurdle that they aren't properly tackling yet - and a video from another developer that is too slow to be usable is not a valid rebuff.

Personally I hold more hope for polygon smoothing technology, like using polygons but polygons that can be infinately smooth - like a bezier curve. That's the logical progression IMO, because it wouldn't cost the same data footprint - in fact polygon counts could drop substantially. Imagine a face model that is incredibly detailed and smooth, using a normal map to define the curvature of the polygons. Look what happend to voxel terrains a decade ago - we had the Delta Force games, using massive and detailed voxel terrains, running nice and smooth - now they are never used, and it's largely because they aren't necessary IMO.

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Fallout
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 15:54
I can see the argument about volumetrics. In atomontage, it really shows off the potential of volume and physics simulation, which is extremely difficult with polygons. I like that idea of easily sculpting the landscape by simply deleting a few voxels (or the data behind them), rather than having to make complex adjustments to mesh data. Also, the idea of doing away with textures is really cool.

I can see how data storage could be optimized. You don't need a 3D array for the entire volume of the world. You could optimize that into separate size chunks. You could have octrees of arrays. Colours wouldn't have to be stored RGBA, there could be palettes per octree position. You could use techniques like bit masks to specify which blocks exists in a vertical element (64bit numbers which can be read and describe the existence of elements in that 64 vertical column, for quick calculation).

There are probably LOADS of techniques to speed up voxel processing and reduce the memory overhead. The more I look into it, the more interesting I find it, and I'm seeing massive benefits over polys. I don't think this engine is the answer though. They're still blatently lying to us by claiming it is infinite.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 16:06
I don't deny that voxels for physics would be revolutionary. I mean imagine Red Faction: Guerilla style gameplay where the buildings are made of voxel atoms, I would love that level of destructability.

However making something infinite is impossible. Plain and simple, while voxels may see a place in games in the future, this isn't it.

Quik
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 16:16
Quote: "I don't deny that voxels for physics would be revolutionary. I mean imagine Red Faction: Guerilla style gameplay where the buildings are made of voxel atoms, I would love that level of destructability. "


thats what i think For enviromental purposes i can actually see this, provided it runs well that is x)

and for the record, I am a man.

bitJericho
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 16:20 Edited at: 5th Aug 2011 16:21
Quote: "However making something infinite is impossible. Plain and simple, while voxels may see a place in games in the future, this isn't it."


tbh, i don't see voxels as the future. The future is in raytracing. Raytracing directly benefits from multiple threads. Raytracing offers all of the benefits of voxels but without the space requirements and has animations. Raytracing makes it *easier* for game companies to create models. (Model, no conversions for bumpmaps and whatnot, save it out, done) We just gotta wait for the hardware to get fast enough.


TheComet
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 16:22
Isn't MineCraft an oversized example of voxels in action?

TheComet

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 16:23
Oh ray tracing is definitely an exciting prospect, I mean everything just looks alot more lustrous with it.

But for physics simulations...maybe voxels will be useful, it depends.

Fallout
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Posted: 5th Aug 2011 16:48
Ray tracing might be great for visuals, but it doesn't address the underlying issue of geometry that voxels can address more easily. Mind you, there's nothing to stop you creating a voxel type world (i.e. grid of data) but using ray tracing to construct the visuals from that data.

I wonder where we'd be with voxels if the last decade of polygon acceleration had been directed at voxels.

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