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Geek Culture / London Riots.

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Dark Frager
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Posted: 8th Aug 2011 23:51
Hi,

Have you guys heard about the riots in London yet, IT'S A COMPLETE MADHOUSE!!! Buses burnt, houses looted, shops raided etc etc... Police are permitted to shoot at the legs if necessary.

AND WHAT'S WORSE:
I live right around the corner from all that.

Read more here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14450248

My plan for today: 1. Wake up. 2. Live 3. Go to sleep.

PAGAN_old
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 00:14
Wow. Whats al the rioting about?

Sounds a lot like moscow football riots in 2001 when russia failed to enter the world cup. Also, buses and cars burnt and madness. Cept Cops back then were not permitted to use lethal force (like shooting at the legs). idk what its like now after the police reforms hadnt had any major riots yet (last years riot wasnt as crazy as in 2001 and was based around racial tention and it was before the police reforms.

But anyway. You should try to stay indoors to avoid getting shot in the leg or something.

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
Indicium
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 00:16
Wow, that's insane. I hadn't even heard about it until now.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 00:25
Saw it on the TV, apparently an Afro-British gentleman was shot by police. He was later found to have been in possession of a gun himself, but people claimed that his shooting by police was because he was afro-british.

Which I found monumentally stupid. I'm glad I live in Norfolk where everyone is too depressed to attempt anything.

Dark Frager
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 00:27
Quote: "Whats al the rioting about?"


What Coffee Grunt wrote. Some guy got shot by the police because he shot a police officer and people are rioting about his death. Stupid if you ask me.

My plan for today: 1. Wake up. 2. Live 3. Go to sleep.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 00:31
I'm pretty sure 90% of the rioters are crackhead chavs who use it as an excuse to ignite some bins.

I say they should just let the police go full-auto on them personally. They'll obviously never contribute to society and everyone who started the riot with peaceful intentions will have left them, as they obviously don't want to be tarred with that brush and jailed.

It's not the people that start the riot, it's the people that pick it up and take it too far. When they start endangering the lives of innocent bystanders, I say the police should be allowed to do more than stand in a wall and let them throw rocks at them.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 00:33
A guy was shot by the police and people hosted a peaceful protest in response to his death. However, it turned violent and I think we can safely say that the riots have nothing to do with the initial protest just that people took the opportunity to start looting and turn violent and to take on a full-on riot.

I imagine a lot of folk are scared, particularly as homes and businesses have been destroyed, so I hope more people aren't hurt by the riots and that the police manage to show the MFers what-for. Also it has started stirring in Birmingham and watching the videos I'm thinking that all this is just going to fuel ammunition for the BNP and any other racist organisations, so I don't see the violence stopping at the riots.

PAGAN_old
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 00:47
Damn, its just like last years riots in moscow. A year before during a football game some russian dude was killed by 2 chechens or something and the football fans decided to gather up after the game and go on a immigrant-beating up rampage. Got out of hand and turned into a riot. The cops tried to give foreigners protection but they were overpowered by the angry mob. Same type of racial-hate fuled riot.

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 00:48
I agree. This protest started with peaceful intentions, and I repsect that fully.

However just like the student demonstrations, a minority take the stage and shunt the majority away. The initial protestors leave because they don't want ot be hurt or jailed, and any pretense of a cause falls away as it's revealed that the rioters are just there to cause damage and hurt innocents.

I hope the police do whatever it takes.

Dark Frager
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 00:51 Edited at: 9th Aug 2011 00:52
They actually did deploy fully-armed special forces that are allowed to shoot whenever they want, but nothing has been heard yet.
Same thing over and over again, smashin' up shops and looting them.

My plan for today: 1. Wake up. 2. Live 3. Go to sleep.

BatVink
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 01:06 Edited at: 9th Aug 2011 01:06
It also shows the irresponsibility of media reporting.

1. Guy shoots at policeman (hit his radio, so it was a potentially lethal shot)
2. Guy is gunned down by police
3. The Guardian report it with an enticing "But was it a police bullet that hit the policeman??!!??!!"
4. All hell breaks loose on the premise that the guy never shot anyone because it was a police bullet.

The Guardian do not have access to the offending evidential bullet. Anything they write is supposition and designed to sell more papers. In this case it probably played a large part in millions of pounds worth of damage, destruction of livelihoods, and tearing apart of families and everything they have strived to make in life.

lazerus
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 01:08 Edited at: 9th Aug 2011 01:09
http://www.twitvid.com/4JTZH

She sums it up. Theres some general swearing, but shes spot on.

Also robbing 99p shops? thats just pathetic... At most you'd get £20/30's worth of crap before you couldnt carry any more. What the hell ;S

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 01:35
That woman. I have gained infinite respect for her. My opinion, is that.

Fallout
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 12:05
Naughty Fallout missed this thread and start another one. *Reprimands himself* So I'll copy and paste my post here ...

People on Facebook keep banging on about London, calling for the police and army to get involved and sort out the criminal element. However, I really think it's up to us, and I think this is an excellent commentary on how crap big city society is.

Case in point: I live out in the sticks at the moment. Recently a bunch of notorious travellers took up refuge in a local field. The local copper said their reputation proceeded them (theft mostly) and we should keep our eyes peeled. Local people in the area got worried and started knocking on doors and talking to each other. Everyone knew the score and were keeping their eyes open. Had there been any trouble, we would all have confronted them and sorted it ourselves, country boy style. We all have respect for each other and each other's property and we are the strong majority.

The problem with London (and other big cities) is it's a fragmented society of individuals, where there is not enough of a community to do anything about minority scum. If the good people out there had community, they could easily overwhelm these thugs and sort them out in a way the police cannot. And I think this is sad, and it's exactly why I do not like living in cities. People simply don't know their neighbours and therefore they're not willing to risk their own safety to help them.

I'm not proposing any solutions, and I'm not blaming immigration, or consumerism, or poverty or anything. All I'm saying is, the 'bad element' cannot get away with this in strong communities. It's only in cities, which are melting pots, full of people who do not care about their neighbours, that this sort of crap can happen.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - what we really need now is a zombie apocalypse.

Darth Vader
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 12:50
I applaud that women!

I'm not British but it sounds hellish over there, I hope it settles down soon

Fallout
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 13:00
Fair play for her speaking her mind, but she will be laughed at by the people she's trying to get through to. They do not care.

Plystire
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 13:14
I know it all started because someone got shot by a police, but I bet it'd stop if someone in the riot got shot for looting by a civi. Try to loot/damage my house, and you're going to die. Or, at the very least, will end up fatally wounded. I think that some people just need a hard, painful lesson sometimes for the kind of crap they do. Rioting for the sake of rioting should not go unpunished, and I wish there was a way to tag every single one of the people involved so that swift justice can be served.


~Plystire

A rose is only a rose until it is held and cherished -- then it becomes a treasure.
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 13:28
Even killing to protect your home is incredibly controversial here, a guy shot a burglar and ended up in a court case spanning years over whethe he fired to subdue or kill outright.

lazerus
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 13:45 Edited at: 9th Aug 2011 13:49
Quote: ""The original rioting appears to have stemmed from the heavy handed use of force against the original peaceful protestors outside the police station - not as a direct reponse to the original shooting. There is still no excuse for what is going on, how the rioting is spreading, or the opportunist thugs who have joined in and turned their anger onto honest, normal, working class people, property and businesses though.""


Double quoatations for empathsis.

Also should say im on a bus down there 3 days a week to uni...

(dam links arent working but its a stones throw away and i travel down smithdown road.)

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 13:50
Laz, you need to build yourself a mech suit and rock on in there.

SpyDaniel
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 14:19
The rioters will mainly be scally kids and adults with the minds of childs. It's only happening because they have nothing better to do and to them its some thing to pass time by.

The police need to start firing rubber bullets at them and if that doesn't work, shoot them, would be better off without this kind of scum.

lazerus
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 14:41 Edited at: 9th Aug 2011 14:43
Im getting rather lazy at typing out my arguments and this guy sums it upper more elegantly.


I think the background of the situation needs to be taken into account here. The Met police have quite an abhorrent recent track record for unlawful killings, with a number of high profile cases such as Jean Charles De Menez, Smiley Culture, Steven Lawrence and Ian Tomlinson being played out in the media, and high court, and exposing wide spread, high level police corruption in such cases, and even systematic racism. The Iain Tomlinson case especially, is chilling to read about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson - and shows the rampant subterfuge which exists in the Met.

Take into account the first news reports that the man shot dead was an armed drug dealer who shot at officers, to the details which we are now seeing, that the IPCC was on the case almost immediately afterwards, the balistics report saying that the bullet fired at the officer was actually from a police issue handgun, and therefore seems to be a colleague who could have misfired, and the heavy handed tactics shown by police during the original, peaceful protest outside the constabulary station

Some of the highest levels of unemplyment in recent years, the disparity in wealth between the "rich" and "poor", political apathy, huge public sector budget cuts, banking and economic crises where the architects aren't ever held accountable, widepspread journalistic and police collusion and corruption by one of the biggest news ocroprations, and a general feeling of disenfranchisement of the youth that are rioting all need to be taken into account. Couple this with channels like MTV showing people who started out in the same situation as many of the kids involved in teh riots boasting about their enormous levels of wealth, a society where immense physical wealth and possesions are lusted after, sports stars making more in a week than most of these people could hope to make in a year and you can start to see where problems could stem from.

Is most of the rioting and looting as a direct result of the killing of Mark Duggan? Probably not. Most of the people involved are probably opportunists, taken an opportunity to get some free swag with no repurcussions, hiding behind a legitimate cause. The fact that theose involved are undoubtadely disenfranchised with their current situation is unarguable though, and this is the bigger picture that society has to deal with to stop this sort of thing happening in the future. People calling for martial law and vigilantism are missing the wider issues which have to be dealt with for a fully functioning society in my opinion.

////

I vote Apc's with water cannons on the rioters. There a unruly mob with no purpose but to loot and steal from others. They have no business being there and are using this death as a cover for there own gain. After all anyone who was there orginally to protest is long gone and replaced with these idiots.

Dazzag
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 15:09
Quote: "Even killing to protect your home is incredibly controversial here, a guy shot a burglar and ended up in a court case spanning years over whethe he fired to subdue or kill outright"
Not anymore apparently. The government basically came out and said do what you like in your own home and we won't put you in jail. There was that case lately where a man killed a thief in his house and no charges were made. It's becoming a lot more relaxed about defending your own home apparently.

Oh, and the government said they would not use water cannons (not humane or somesuch) but rain would stop riots. So why don't they point them up in the air? Would come down like rain surely? Problem solved...

Cheers

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The Next
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 15:09
Only way to deal with the minority that see fit to cause trouble is to call in the Army, or give the Police the power to take them down with force. I couldn't care less about anyones rights when they are burning houses with innocent people in. There waa an image on the news of a Woman jumping from a window as her house was burnt by rioting idiots.

There is no excuse for the riots! The man that was shot by the Police was known to carry guns on him. The Police tried to arrest him and he acted in a way that was threatening and endangered the officers. He deserved to be shot as far as I'm concerned. You break the law and threaten the Police that are just doing a job you deserve no less.

What we have yet again is some unemployed bored teenagers that have nothing better to do. The solution would be to increase the punishments and beat it out of them. The riots would stop as soon as the Army is out there with orders to use force. Force is what is needed not riot sheilds and Police that have no powere or are scared to use it because someone will think its wrong.

It's times like these that the UK should be more tough on crime, living in the UK I am forever annoyed at how easy people get let off on a number of crimes.

[END RANT]

Mystic Mod - Putting the fear back into sliced bread since 4th May 2010
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xplosys
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 15:38 Edited at: 9th Aug 2011 15:39
I'm going to drift a little off topic here because I'm seeing something that puzzles me. Whenever the "right to bear arms" in the US comes up in discussion, there seems to be a lot of dissension on the part of others, especially of those in the UK, about whether you should be allowed to have guns. What I see in this thread is more like "Kill'em - Kill'em all!" Is it because it's closer to home?

I have to state again, and agree with others in this thread, that if the home and shop owners were armed and allowed to defend both life and property, there would be little to no looting and damaging of property. The only reason these punks do it, is because they know they won't be hurt. As soon as they see their buddy shot, it'll be over.

"It's all fun until someone get dead!"

Brian.

baxslash
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 16:06
I haven't read all the posts here but the situation is pathetic. Anyone fancy making a new game: "Looter Shooter!!"

I'm all for a riot if you happen to live in a fascist dictatorship or something but this can be attributed to only one thing:

Bored criminals who don't have the guts to step outside on their own

I just watched a video of a bunch of thugs 'helping' a bleeding (there was blood) young lad up then robbing him blind and leaving him there crying at the side of the road. Rubber bullets are too good for them!

Teh Stone
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 16:09
This is an impossible situation for our government, people are calling for the police to be stricter on the rioters, some saying about opening fire at peoples legs but the riots started because a man was shot by police so surely shooting back is going to make things worse
baxslash
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 16:23
Quote: "This is an impossible situation for our government, people are calling for the police to be stricter on the rioters, some saying about opening fire at peoples legs but the riots started because a man was shot by police so surely shooting back is going to make things worse"

Not impossible, I would rather see the Police doing something rather than nothing. I was joking about using real bullets but they could do a lot more than they are doing. This is not individual Police Officer's at fault, they have clearly been told to have the bare minimum of presence.

These people will not stop unless the police take action. Perhaps they are waiting until public opinion is clear that they should be doing something before they actually do? Now that's clever...

xplosys
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 16:39
Quote: "the riots started because a man was shot by police so surely shooting back is going to make things worse"


Why do we do that? Why do we start in the middle of the story? Why didn't the riot start because the man shot at the police first? Why do we leave out that little bit of information? Does that make it seem more interesting?

baxslash
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 16:48
Quote: "Why didn't the riot start because the man shot at the police first?"

I think it's not right to suggest even that was the 'cause' of the riots. It's kind of like saying a fire was caused by a man dropping a burning match and forgetting the fact that the grass he dropped it on was dry because it hadn't rained that day. Oh, and he dropped the match because someone threw a brick at him while he was lighting his cigarette...

This riot happened for a large number of reasons (as they always do). The guy getting shot was just a spark. The sad thing about this riot is the fuel is greed, not people wanting a change in the system or an end to a regime.

Fallout
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 17:05
Quote: "I have to state again, and agree with others in this thread, that if the home and shop owners were armed and allowed to defend both life and property, there would be little to no looting and damaging of property. The only reason these punks do it, is because they know they won't be hurt. As soon as they see their buddy shot, it'll be over."


Totally agree. However, if you give shop keepers access to guns, you give the scum underworld better access to guns too. Then the shop keeper who chooses not to have a gun cannot defend himself.

We have a great system in the UK where cops do not have to carry firearms, and for the most part they don't want guns, because they feel is worsens situations that can be resolved without shooting or threat of shooting. Criminals rarely draw their weapons on police because the repercussions are far worse than potentially being caught thieving or beating someone up and getting 6 months in jail. Gun crime, I believe, is a minimum 5 year sentence (I think). When they do get their guns out (which is rare), we have the armed police units to deal with that.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 17:07
The initial 'peaceful' protest was over the shooting. The riot on the other hand, well who knows the real motive? And yes they seem to rule out that he was an armed drug dealer, but look at a lot of 'peaceful' protests in the UK, for example the student protest that was in London, ends in violence, not necessarily because the protests get too rowdy, but somebody starts a chain and it attracts anybody who wants to cause trouble and ruining the reputation of the groups who start the protest.

Dazzag
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 17:22
Quote: "who knows the real motive?"
LCD TVs and Trainers. In other countries youth rises up for simple human rights. Ours want at least 46 inches LED backlit. Preferably 3D. Enough said.

Quote: "we have the armed police units to deal with that"
Heh, I once did a load of work with a mate for an accountant, pretty much writing their stock control and accounting system (on a PCW. Whoo 1991!) for a pub he owned in Liverpool. Rough as hell it was. A short time later he went down for cocking up his accounts (ahem). Anyway years later I was watching "Cops" with one of our armed response units and they were patrolling around this pub saying how rough as hell it was. Right funny

Cheers

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 18:00
@Xplosys

In honesty an event like this is Britain is extraordinarily rare. I can't ever remember something like this happening, but arming civilians here wouldn't help. How would the government know who should have a gun and who shouldn't?

While yes, only the criminals carry guns here, thankfully many of them know not to use them. This is the result of one stupid man trying to be the hard man with his pistol, getting shot, then a perfectly fair protest rising up against his death.

If shopkeepers were armed, they'd panic. A horde's in your street, who's the rioter and who's the civilian trying to escape? That split second you have before a mob beats down your door, with a group that size, possibly armed if guns were legal, would you have any more hope of winning?

We don't need guns, our law enforcement are gun enough. I'm pretty impoverished teenager, but I won't loot a TV shop because of this.

Then again, in my case I would be robbing my work.

xplosys
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 18:04
Quote: "How would the government know who should have a gun and who shouldn't?"


Here's where we differ fundamentally. It's none of the governments business. It's not for them to decide. We make our own decisions whenever possible, which is getting slimmer by day.

Brian.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 18:25
Mm hmm, because America's too big to police. Britain's alot more intimately designed.

I wouldn't want the capability for anyone to be able to get a gun, I've been through high school, the neanderthals that make up the populace round here were barely trustworthy with a pencil.

BatVink
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 18:29
Quote: "I think the background of the situation needs to be taken into account here. The Met police have quite an abhorrent recent track record for unlawful killings, with a number of high profile cases such as Jean Charles De Menez, Smiley Culture, Steven Lawrence and Ian Tomlinson being played out in the media,blah blah blah"


This is what's known as the Availability Error. These are high profile cases because they are rare. I would challenge anyone with this approach to name any cases where the police did not shoot or jail a suspect who then went on to kill innocent people. It happens far more frequently, but don't get a mention.

Quote: "...the balistics report saying that the bullet fired at the officer was actually from a police issue handgun"


Distorting the evidence, another common error. It may turn out to be true, but right now, there is no statement that says it was a police bullet in the radio. It's all alleged, and all came from one report in a rogue newspaper who never named their "source".

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 18:30
Also, I'd rather have a police officer shoot down an armed drug dealer than a repeat of Raul Moat any day of the week.

The Next
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 18:37
@CoffeeGrunt

Very true, a terrible tradegy by a self-fish man, with no regard for innocent life.

More on-topic what's this nonsense about Water Cannons being inhumane so they can't be used. I don't care if they are inhumane (even though they are not). The government here has no idea at all! They need to make an example of the few that are causing the trouble before it gets out of hand.

Mystic Mod - Putting the fear back into sliced bread since 4th May 2010
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 18:46
Am I the only person who thinks they should dust the looters in Francium before using the water cannons?

bruce3371
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 18:51
Rent-a-Mob, the very same group of common low-life thugs who kick off at football matches, who are then excused by the PC brigade blaming it on poverty and society's lack of understanding of these 'poor souls'.

What a load of BS, they choose to be thugs, it isn't forced on them by society.

You can pretty much guarantee that whenever there's a peacefull protest about something or other, there's always the same group of thugs who use it as an excuse to kick off.

As for gun crime and gun laws, The U.S. have their laws, we have our laws, can we please leave it at that. It's a pointless debate that only ever results in flame wars.

baxslash
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 18:52
Quote: "Am I the only person who thinks they should dust the looters in Francium before using the water cannons?"

Am I the only person who doesn't know what Francium is used for?

Anyway, my son's been pestering me for a Wii so does anyone know where I can get a balaclava from at this time of year...? I don't own a 'hoody'

xplosys
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 18:57
The hoody would be the cheaper way to go.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 18:58
Quote: "Am I the only person who doesn't know what Francium is used for?"


It explodes upon contact with water.

Dazzag
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Posted: 9th Aug 2011 19:21
Nah go the french route and hit them with dyed water that doesn't easily (at all) wash out. And make it purple. Then next day round them up.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Dazzag
22
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Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Cyprus
Posted: 9th Aug 2011 19:26
Quote: "Mm hmm, because America's too big to police. Britain's alot more intimately designed"
If you consider each state is run, pretty much (as we would look at it), as an individual country, then Britain has almost twice the population of any US state (granted in a *much* smaller area). Most states have nowhere near the population we have.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Libervurto
18
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Joined: 30th Jun 2006
Location: On Toast
Posted: 9th Aug 2011 20:10 Edited at: 9th Aug 2011 20:22
IMO they should round up the looters one by one and cut their hands off. There's absolutely no excuse for such mindless violence, arson and theft. They are so selfish and don't even think about the consequences of their actions. The irony is they are destroying their own towns!

If I owned a machine gun I would go down there and protect whatever I could from the rioters if it flares up again. I want to do something but I know I'd just get my head caved in if I went down there by myself.

I'm not a violent person but I don't see any alternative solution, these people are animals.

This is like Libya in reverse!

It really saddens me to see so many young black faces among the rioters, all the footage I see is of young black boys, I think there's going to be a nasty racial backlash because of these riots, this could divide the country. People aren't mentioning it because of the whole political correctness garbage but that just makes things worse. If you don't highlight race issues people jump to their own conclusions, and that is how racism begins! There is something seriously wrong in the black youth community and it is dragging people down who would otherwise be high achievers, just because of the colour of their skin.

I've never been so appalled and frightened by events in my own country. Let's hope the police can take back the streets tonight or we might only be at the beginning of something far more serious and potentially the downfall of the British government. This is no joke, if this continues to expand we could be living in anarchy within a month.

Benjamin
22
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Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 9th Aug 2011 20:21
Suffice to say the punishment these people will receive probably won't compare to what they deserve, 'human rights' and all that.



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Ocho Geek
17
Years of Service
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Joined: 16th Aug 2007
Location: Manchester, UK
Posted: 9th Aug 2011 21:47
I would obviously like to join in and say the riots have just been an excuse for many people to loot

but hey look, RIOT PLANKING


Not Spanish, Not Eight, Just Ocho

CoffeeGrunt
17
Years of Service
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Joined: 5th Oct 2007
Location: England
Posted: 9th Aug 2011 22:01
Heroic, he should do it in one of the burning buildings next.

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