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Geek Culture / TGC needs to set up a store...

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 4th Oct 2011 04:56
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For games made with DarkBASIC. I'm talking about an online store where all you sell is games made by any TGC product.

Lee Bamber must be able to relate to not having enough money to start a company, turning to his friend there. Waiting a year for funding, huh? College student, huh? No money, huh? I can relate.

It is this mutual understanding that will start this store. Kids could either open lemonade stands, or they could sell games through TGC. No approval process, no delays. Anyone could sell games online.

Sure, you're heading down that path with AppGameKit and AppUp. But what about games that aren't apps? What about full, 200 MB games? Where do we sell those? Do we sell out to a distributor? No. Do we work from scratch developing for some app store? No. We simply upload out games to TGC and have them sold.

TGC could take half, and kids could take have. Just type in a postal address and a name, and you're all set.
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Agent Dink
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Posted: 4th Oct 2011 06:21
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I'm sure it's not as simple as it sounds, and I'm sure it wouldn't be as popular or as profitable as you think, but I'm not opposed to the idea.

http://lossofanonymity.wordpress.com
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DevilLiger
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Posted: 4th Oct 2011 08:09
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they probably need extra servers and HD storage spaces just to cover it. alot of expenses goes to it I guess. I remember there was an online place that does it too, but you can always sell them at places online.

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BatVink
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Posted: 4th Oct 2011 09:19
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You can sell games made with dBPro on AppUp, and all of the information you need (including the 20+ games from these forums already on there) is in the ADG Thread.

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Hodgey
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Posted: 4th Oct 2011 09:25
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And I think AppGameKit speaks for itself with the app stores.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Oct 2011 12:13
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Quote: "You can sell games made with dBPro on AppUp, and all of the information you need (including the 20+ games from these forums already on there) is in the ADG Thread."


This is pretty much it, I think it's better to work with an already established store than to go the trouble of making your own, especially as it would be hard to compete.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 4th Oct 2011 12:54
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I dunno about that, it would depend a lot on the portal, what other games they host, and what their cut would be.

You don't want the game you slaved away on for 2 years selling for 5 bucks next to shovelware.

I'd personally take my chances self-publishing, at least to start with.


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Quel
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Posted: 4th Oct 2011 13:55 Edited at: 4th Oct 2011 14:06
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What about that PLAY or DEVELOP pair of buttons right at the front page of TGC? Can't you send in a game to them, and if they find it worthy it will be up there for purchase? At least I thought it works that way.

I don't think there is enough big projects that get completed to base a whole new internet place on them. And it doesn't really fit an original stand alone product to be in a lot with totally different other titles, they can have their own self-made websites each, and with the right promotion (which is much easier nowadays with for example Youtube) it will do the job. A market place won't make your (possibly) crappy game sell better.

-In.Dev.X: A unique heavy story based shoot'em ~35%
-CoreFleet: An underground commander unit based RTS ~15%
-TailsVSEggman: An Sonic themed RTS under development for idea presentation to Sega ~15%
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BatVink
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Posted: 4th Oct 2011 15:39
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Quote: "I'd personally take my chances self-publishing, at least to start with."


It's a nice thought but surprisingly hard. My game on AppUp gets more downloads than the website I also present it on. No doubt my game gets seen on AppUp many more times than the downloads I get so as an outlet, I can't match it by self-publishing. I'm getting over 200 downloads a month from AppUp.

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 5th Oct 2011 01:55 Edited at: 5th Oct 2011 01:57
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@BatVink-

Is there any particular reason why you are promoting AppUp? I mean, it's an app store, just like the iPhone app store. What a hassle. $99 developer fee? No thanks. Besides, I'm not even sure if I can sell games made with DarkBASIC Classic.

Now here goes my rant:

Most games are not "apps". They're one of two things: Coding projects or long-term, overpromoted games. A lot of stuff on TGC is the former. Now, we're not selling "code" by definition, we are selling products, but does every product have to be a nicely bundled minigame? No.

No, it does not. In fact, I despise minigames. They're cheap, boring, pointless, and I always feel like I'm being brainwashed. The trouble is that an individual or a couple people will put a huge number of hours into said minigame, and the end product takes no more time to complete than any of these 5-minute "coding projects". The only difference is polish. In my opinion, the ability to take a nice screenshot or listen to rockin' beats comes second to good gameplay. That said, any one of my "coding projects" is better than any app you can buy on the app store.

That's why we need a game store. So we can sell our games.

EDIT: You remind me of Milkshake from that episode of Aqua Teen Hunger Force where he sells out to Boost Mobile.
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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 5th Oct 2011 05:01
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I've honestly been wondering how I'm going to get any of my games out... Quite frankly, I'm next to broke so I can't afford webspace or a starting fee for an online store right now.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 5th Oct 2011 06:28
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@Da_Rhyno

Sounds like I should push my community project a little more and get something started for it...

I am offering free services to help fellow Devs on here for very little in return... [mention me/my company... standard stuff] and just abide by typical rules... no virus like activity, no illegal content, no copyright theft, original work only etc... I need to draft these up so you can imagine it would take time, but I want to run this project in support of fellow Devs like you so hope it helps... [things on offer are Hosted Wordpress/Joomla/Drupal sites where you manage the site yourself, and ftp storage space for you to upload your content for customers/visitors to download as well as for learning or development of your own apps in relation to web based updates or the like...] some of the applications include a business class CRM application, A classroom management suite and also team/group organisers... and even a fully functional Gallery server App... also you can utilise Flash video instead of using Youtube if you are looking for a professional edge... although the likes of Ubisoft and such are using Youtube for all their wsite videos... possibly to reduce strain of their own servers lol... umm I intend to implement SSL at a later date soon so that all sites can feature secured browsing across the entire site as well...

Anyway let me know if this will be of any help...

Back on topic...

Has this not been discussed a gazillion times before?

[Hi BatVink and Jerico2Day and Seppuku Arts, and the rest of you ]

{looking back on this post before I posted... dang did I sound corporatey? hope not }

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Hodgey
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Posted: 5th Oct 2011 07:28
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Quote: "Is there any particular reason why you are promoting AppUp?"

His game "Pile 'em Up", which is very addictive, is available for download on the Intel AppUp Store.

Quote: "What a hassle. $99 developer fee? No thanks."

A developer fee is quite common and has been temporarily waved by Intel. But code signing is a pain.

Quote: "I'm not even sure if I can sell games made with DarkBASIC Classic."

I don't think you can but it wouldn't be that hard to convert them to DBP would it?

Quote: "Most games are not "apps"."

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you there. App is short for application which is software. Games are software therefore games are "apps". LHS = RHS

Quote: "That's why we need a game store. So we can sell our games."

So you are against "App Stores" but you want a "Game Store" which practically serves the same purpose as an App Store but exclusively games?


Quote: "I am offering free services to help fellow Devs on here for very little in return..."

BatVink, sounds like we have some competition.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 5th Oct 2011 08:02
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Quote: "

BatVink, sounds like we have some competition.

"


Not really

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 5th Oct 2011 09:09
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@MrValentine: That sounds great! And after I get off the ground, I wouldn't mind paying a small royalty fee for using your webspace.

I know I'd have to pay a small royalty to paypal if I were to use their services, so we could work something out where you get another percentage of the profit after paypal takes theirs.

However, that would work for me.
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BatVink
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Posted: 5th Oct 2011 11:27
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Quote: "Is there any particular reason why you are promoting AppUp? I mean, it's an app store, just like the iPhone app store. What a hassle. $99 developer fee? No thanks."


My only reason is because it has worked for me. I've been trying to get my games played by people for 8 years. One game on Appup has been played by 6 times more people than all my other games put together, in just 3 months. It's the only PC games market out there I can find that is a success.

I will sing the praises of any App store that works for me. Until AppGameKit, AppUp was my only option, especially as it is free, not $99.

I'm heavily involved with Baxslash's App Developer Group (which incidentally is predominantly games). right now you'll see that the games are all on AppUp. BUT we've coded it to link to iTunes, the Bada market, Android and any more that we can take advantage of. We don't discriminate, we'll take advantage of any store! AppGameKit is our first opportunity to break away from just PC games.

I would encourage you to join the ADG via the forum thread here. If there are other points of sale for our games out there, we will find them. Baxslash already has another PC-based one in his sights.
Who knows, maybe one day ADG will itself be a point of sale!

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MrValentine
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Posted: 5th Oct 2011 17:01
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I also hope to put something up on ADG soon

But I am nowhere near the phase 'Polish' so until then... I have quite some way to go

however my shop is taking speed

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 6th Oct 2011 05:04
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Quote: "I also hope to put something up on ADG soon

But I am nowhere near the phase 'Polish' so until then... I have quite some way to go

however my shop is taking speed "


Sounds like a plan!
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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 6th Oct 2011 22:49
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@BatVink-

That is so sad. However, I don't think you understand. Until there is GDG, I'm not joining. Can I not reach the hardcore gamer and serious programmer demographic? I think Da_Rhyno has the right idea. Don't you see the message he's trying to tell you?

We want to sell games, not apps. Games made with DarkBASIC Classic, or hell even The 3D Game Maker.
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Hodgey
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Posted: 7th Oct 2011 06:25
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Quote: "We want to sell games, not apps."

So what's wrong with an App Store? Every app store I've come across sells games and as far as I'm concerned, a game (of any kind) is an "app".

Quote: "Until there is GDG, I'm not joining."

Most of the titles found on our website (click my sig) are games. We use the term "App" in our name because we wish to cover not only games but all areas of applications.

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 7th Oct 2011 23:50
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@Hodgey-

My biggest concern is "quality standards". I wish to sell games I made when I was first learning DarkBASIC. Would that be possible? I'm just saying that personally, I think that people should get what they pay for. I'm not spending half a year to sell a game for $5. There should be all price ranges for games ranging from afternoon projects to two year coding marathons.
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Hodgey
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 03:19
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Quote: "I wish to sell games I made when I was first learning DarkBASIC. Would that be possible?"

Not through Intel unfortunately, unless you can convert them to DBPro. How compatable are DBC .exes with Windows 7?

Quote: "I'm not spending half a year to sell a game for $5. There should be all price ranges for games ranging from afternoon projects to two year coding marathons. "

As a developer you get to pick the price (or should be able to). So you can charge whatever you like for it. Many games are so cheap because price is a large factor for consumers when buying a game. It's better to have 5 people buy a game for $2 than 2 people paying for a 4$ game.

It's basically low price/high sales VS high price/low sales

So pick wisely

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 06:01
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Quote: "Not through Intel unfortunately, unless you can convert them to DBPro. How compatable are DBC .exes with Windows 7?"


I was hoping I could upload games directly to your site. DBC is more compatible with Windows 7 than DB Pro.

Quote: "As a developer you get to pick the price (or should be able to). So you can charge whatever you like for it. Many games are so cheap because price is a large factor for consumers when buying a game. It's better to have 5 people buy a game for $2 than 2 people paying for a 4$ game."


That is one of the many problems of an app store. I could go to WalMart and buy $10 shovelware or I could go on AppUp or iTunes and get a $4 "app".

I am aware that it is more marketable to make it cheaper, but a price says something:

$1 - $4 says "my game sucks, please buy it!"
$10+ says "This is a real game"
10c says "I sell for whatever I want!"

Don't you see the problem?
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 06:07
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@Fluffy Rabbit if you dissaprove of stores, you could just start your own site... and if its too much trouble, help is at hand



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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 06:22
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@MrValentine - If you don't mind, check your email.

Quote: "10c says "I sell for whatever I want!""

I agree to a point, but when you start trying to sell it for $30+, I more than likely wouldn't buy it unless it was something I already knew about and grew up with.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 06:37
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Quote: "$1 - $4 says "my game sucks, please buy it!""


Not really the case in an App store, I bought Angry Birds for £0.69 off of Apple's App Store. The game is incredibly popular and an effective indie title

Though some stuff does go for up to £10, Final Fantasy III is £10.99 on the Apple App Store, but it is the exact same version (the 3D remake) as you'd buy on the Nintendo DS, except adapted to iOS and its high resolution. FFIII was a triple-a DS title and so they get away with the price tag. It's cheaper than the DS release, yet for an App? It's expensive. I think people tend to buy Apps because they're cheap and because they're cheap and people will take their chances on something that sounds interesting. £1.99 is the cost of a cheap drink at the bar. And £0.79 might buy you a bag of crisps with it as well. I bought 2 indie titles off of Steam for £1.99 last week even though I already got them from XBox Live Indie Arcade.

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Hodgey
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 12:28
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Quote: "I was hoping I could upload games directly to your site."

We currently don't act as a vendor unfortunately but maybe someday. How 'bout it BatVink, it's not a bad idea. Your welcome to advertise your games on our site in exchange for promoting the site within your game (such as a link back to the site). If you'd like to learn more, follow BatVink's links.

Quote: "$1 - $4 says "my game sucks, please buy it!"
$10+ says "This is a real game"
10c says "I sell for whatever I want!"

Don't you see the problem? "

Not everyone would agree with those views as I'm sure you're aware of. There are a couple of perspectives I can see from this but I'm guessing yours is that people are less likely to buy your game on an appstore as opposed to a walk in game shop if you price it in the $10+ range. You basically want something in the middle, an online walk in game store.

Well, it might be worth giving TGC an email Fluffy Rabbit as I've noticed that they have removed the "we currently don't publish games" on their developer page and at the top of this board you'll find a sticky called "New Games".

I personally would recommend appstores (if you can re-create your games to make them compatable) as thousands of people browse them each day and developers can get lucky. For whichever path you choose I wish you good luck.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 17:31
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I dont mind being a Vendor >.<

Hodgey, is that because of bandwidth issues? or the implication of bringing a lawyer in?

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 8th Oct 2011 21:08
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@Hodgey-

I emailed Lee. Hopefully, we will get some results.
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Hodgey
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Posted: 9th Oct 2011 00:23 Edited at: 9th Oct 2011 00:24
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Quote: "Hodgey, is that because of bandwidth issues? or the implication of bringing a lawyer in?"

We just haven't really talked about it.

Quote: "I emailed Lee. Hopefully, we will get some results. "

Well, there is certainly a chance of good results.

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 9th Oct 2011 03:05
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Quote: "Hi Rabbit,


We've had this talk from time to time within the team about setting up a TGC game store and we don't think there is enough demand from our site to buy games themselves (as proven from our current collection of pure game titles). Our bid to make the process of publishing apps through the AppGameKit system is the closest we are getting to helping authors publish their titles, but we're early doors on this at present. If you are keen to publish your DBP titles, AppUp is a great place to get exposure and revenue. Let me know if you want more information on this. Thanks for the suggestion!


Best Regards,
Lee."


It sounds like a no. But hey, at least he replied. I will now inquire about DarkBASIC Classic, and what kind of distribution solutions there are for that.
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Hodgey
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Posted: 9th Oct 2011 14:29
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Quote: "It sounds like a no. But hey, at least he replied."

Well, it was worth a try. As we've mentioned, DBC games won't work with the Intel AppUp Store but baxslash, the founder of ADG, was approached by this App Store. I'm not sure how popular it is or the criteria for publishing games on it but it would be worth looking into.

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 05:14
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@Hodgey-

The Avenue platform unfortunately forces people to download a client. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a web-based app store?

I am getting really frustrated with the results I'm finding. Even more frustrating is the non-answer Lee replied with.

Quote: "DBC is going back a bit, well before I added some code to allow the AppUp protection system to be used. In AppGameKit we attempted to solve the increasing problem of distribution and relevance of TGC apps, especially with the onslaught of mobile and tablet devices. If your apps are primarily 2D in nature, you might find the AppGameKit trial much easier to pick-up than you might expect as it was inspired by the DBP language."


We are screwed really hard. It seems like TGC is forcing us to use DarkBASIC Pro. I don't like being forced to do things.
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Hodgey
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 05:35
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Quote: "The Avenue platform unfortunately forces people to download a client. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a web-based app store?"

It does. Clients seem to be pretty popular these days, Apple and Intel use them as well.

I only know of one other place that might be your cup of tea, GameHouse. Here is their developer page. I'm 99% sure it's web based. They have a few requirements though. Are you able to make a DBC game recover from screen switch, alt+tab etc? I know how to do it in DBP but not sure about DBC. Anyway, check it out and if it doesn't work out then you may have to start your own online store. MrValentine seems willing to team up.

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 06:53
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@Hodgey-

I am fully capable of Alt-Tabs. However, I am wetting my pants with fear over this horrible, horrible list of requirements.

MrValentine, let's team up and start our own game company!
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Benjamin
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 07:02
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Seems like it'd be a waste of time and resources since only a small handful of commercial games have been made in DBPro.



Support a charitable indie game project!
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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 07:06 Edited at: 10th Oct 2011 07:09
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@Benjamin-

I'm not sure you've read this thread in any great detail. DarkBASIC Pro users have AppUp. (Not that we'd want to use that anyway.)

----

I am uncomfortable with GameHouse's marketing requirements. The executable requirements are not too stringent, but the marketing B.S.- OH MY GOD! Six screenshots? SIX? In addition, I need to support Windows Vista? No way. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's too time consuming.


EDIT: Also, why do I have to make an installer? I hate installers! I should be able to distribute a game however I want! Also, why is there an approval process, and "releases"? It should be like uploading a YouTube video! You don't see sites housing free games taking forever to "approve" crap. It's not right!
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MrValentine
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 07:12
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@Fluffy Rabbit

Huh? Who? What? Whoa? Wha? Huh?

[looks around then looks back at you...]

Oh you mean me?

Game Company or Distribution Site?

I doubt starting a Game Company with anyone is in my books as I already have my own actual registered company [Private Limited] but you are welcome to use my hosting services before I start introducing a competition basis of take up for the services... I will be giving away 250 databases/web applications but will have a selection process basically.

I currently have time in the next few days to start working on this so will post up a thread soon in Geek Culture, was considering WIP but... might just jump in there to stir some interest rather than starting 2 thrads on the same topic... unless someone thinks its best to put it in WIP as thats where some people actually have working prototypes and may be nearer the stage where they need some sort of professional public facing outlet...

Thanks for the mention Hodgey, in no way will I ever be in competition with you more along side you we could cross network traffic which should help with google rankings [woops just gave away a trade secret lol].

Back on topic, I think regarding the store thing for TGC, you need to realise it will require 1 persons full attention and that is something a small team like TGC who is currently putting all their efforts into AppGameKit [with respect I think theyre always making the right moves so not complaining there] so getting someone to sit there and undertake the huge workload of a store for selling additional products and having to scrutinise among other aspects would be time consuming... remember, just because you have a formula 1 racing car, does not mean you can compete in the events, think about all the involved work tasks. [just to whet your thoughts, management, staff, mechanics, marketing team, race drivers... yes you need at least 2, financiers who get you the money, pr reps and so on... this can be applied to just about ANY project... just scope it out and you will realise some projects are more trouble/challenging than theyre worth at the time they are proposed.

phew what got into me recently...

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 07:33 Edited at: 10th Oct 2011 07:35
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Quote: "Game Company or Distribution Site?

I doubt starting a Game Company with anyone is in my books as I already have my own actual registered company [Private Limited] but you are welcome to use my hosting services before I start introducing a competition basis of take up for the services... I will be giving away 250 databases/web applications but will have a selection process basically.

I currently have time in the next few days to start working on this so will post up a thread soon in Geek Culture, was considering WIP but... might just jump in there to stir some interest rather than starting 2 thrads on the same topic... unless someone thinks its best to put it in WIP as thats where some people actually have working prototypes and may be nearer the stage where they need some sort of professional public facing outlet..."


Distribution is more important than hosting. I can host games myself. What I need is a way to sell them. I want someone who will use PayPal or something and sell downloads to my games, and mail me a check. Someone who will manage sales and all the other money stuff for me so I can sit back and collect income.

EDIT: And it's more than just a money thing. Someone with exposure would be good. I don't want to make an "app" or compete with people. I want people to say:

"Awesome, the next game in the Dark Survival series! I have to download it!"
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MrValentine
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 07:47 Edited at: 10th Oct 2011 07:48
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ooo, interesting... hmm perhaps I should make a page on my computer shop website for games for sale and download... hmm

Yeah I see what you mean, I am currently looking into incorporating SSL onto my hosting before thats done I will not be making use of web purchases, after it.. I am doing a whole host of things... this SSL will also be available for hosted community projects hopefully.

Ooh you got ftp space already? make sure the speed is at least 50,000Mbit like mine lol [sorry just couldnt resist boasting that fact ]

but yeah I am looking into that aspect... speaking of which, Hodgey how does your site currently work? is it an advertising outlet or also for making purchases? do you have SSl on logins and purchases [if any on site-ignore this if using paypal] I am currently looking into making a social network site... but think I would be best to get SSL [there is a shared SSL certificate available but prefer my own dedicated SSL as it makes life easier] before I get even one new member to register.

[just giving you some input there hope it helped @ Hodgey]

EDIT
k in like fixed from line

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 07:56
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@MrValentine-

OK, well that is the whole reason why I wanted your help. SSL is good. However, you can just as well write a PHP script and have it done. Transactions don't need to be secure, they just need to add a speedbump if they're trying to find the URL of the download.

And no, I don't have FTP, but I have:

Access to a private hosting site
My own FreeWebs site
Google Code

So really it's no big deal.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 08:10
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oh SSL is primarily used to secure user account and password input/transfers othet than that its not needed for much else... oh and forms of course.

securing download links is one thing... but then encrypting the actual download file with purchaser info is another thing... I think this is a better form of speedbump, rather than trying to obscure the download path... people are less likely to pirate their own details such as their email address which was used to purchase the item and a specified password that only they would know... but there is a plethora of ways to counter pirating... its beyond the scope of this thread/post.

Speaking of which... you end up with a UBISOFT move where you have a user needing to login online in order to play a game [I know its been done before UBI but I mean for additional features like online game save stuff so UBI fits the bill here]

So I think password locking an end user executable is probably better than losking an online file or creating a must be online login system... hope I make sense here... this topic is rather a huge one... and contains many aspects.

there was more written here but I felt it was too much information regarding my business and I dont want to sound too ... OTT... so... will avoid saying too much.

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 08:20
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NO COPY PROTECTION!

I don't want to be known for having that in my games. I want to be able to link to a zip file that the user can download once they've paid.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 08:25
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not exactly copy protection, but distribution protection... you dont want your OPEN exe out there now do you?

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Fluffy Rabbit
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 08:32
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It can be open.

I'm going to bed.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 08:33
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night

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 09:15
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@MrValentine - That was pretty much the same thing with me that Rabbit needs, only I do need some webspace to advertise it. But again, I'll get back to you when I have enough to get a demo out, which shouldn't be too long here.

My only concern is how would we work out exchange rates, I mean sure Fluffy Rabbit and you may be in the UK, whereas I'm in the US.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 09:18
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umm I think it works out as I take my % before exchange rate so roughly 7% then you take the loss of exchange rate and end up with whats left of the rest... I am more than happy with just 7% for now, maximum I will ever accept is 33%... whats your view on this?

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 09:52
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For now 7% is fine by me but if somehow it manages to get more of a following with more customer and profit coming in, I would prefer to give you a bit more, if not to you directly than to a fund you could use for a charity or whatnot.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 10th Oct 2011 09:58
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remember that bit I mentioned earlier... about going OTT...

I do hope I can make some kind of contribution in future for fellow Dev's I can assure you once my shop expands to have its own premises and we bring in a dedicated leased line and have servers in house... I will offer this service up front, but of course with a fee attached/percentage based.

The Future is where life unfolds, the present is where you have an idea.

for the record I am not one who values money, I value life above all else, hence why my company allocates % of profits to our own charity fund.

that was what I cut out from that post earlier.

I am 'planning' a charity trip next summer so a charity fund will be appropriate.

I probably would put all proceeds directly into the fund as my business will be financing the hosting nevertheless... I am yet to consolidate all finances in detail publically so watch this space [the space below that is... banner ]

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