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Geek Culture / They found the Higgs!

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 4th Jul 2012 19:37
Well looky here guys, they finally found the Higgs Boson!

http://gizmodo.com/5923422/physicists-have-found-the-higgs-boson

With a 5-sigma measurement they can officially say it's been found, although they're exercising cautious enthusiasm in case it ends up being something different. Either way, they've found SOMETHING and it could change some ideas for physics very much!

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Jul 2012 19:58 Edited at: 4th Jul 2012 19:58
They're cautious about calling it a Higgs, because as scientists they want to make sure all of its properties comply with Higgs (check all the facts before getting ahead of themselves), but it certainly is a new boson, so they've got the particle they needed to conclude this experiment. So we're looking at something pretty damn significant as far as our understanding of physics go.

Xenocythe
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Posted: 4th Jul 2012 21:19
Now it's only a matter of years before Mass Effect becomes our reality.

Matty H
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Posted: 4th Jul 2012 21:21
We now know there is a particle that gives things mass and stops everything flying around at the speed of light. I'm gonna try and pick some off my body tonight and see if I can run any faster.

Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 4th Jul 2012 21:30
Quote: "I'm gonna try and pick some off my body tonight and see if I can run any faster. "

Unfortunately it only works if you're in a vacuum :\

The Zoq2
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Posted: 4th Jul 2012 21:59
Mabe he's running in vacum........
Phaelax
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Posted: 4th Jul 2012 22:50
They *think* they found the Higgs.

"You're not going crazy. You're going sane in a crazy world!" ~Tick
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 00:03
It's weird. If the Higgs gives particles mass, why does it have a mass? That's like saying what colour is a photon?

BatVink
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 00:16
Quote: "With a 5-sigma measurement they can officially say it's been found"


The measurement allows them to say they've made a discovery. Even if it is the particle they are looking for, it's still only a blip on a piece of graph paper. They don't have one caged up for everyone to see.

Quote: "If the Higgs gives particles mass, why does it have a mass?"

It gives the particle enough mass to explain the behaviour of atoms. The atom always had mass, it was just so insignificant that they knew something was missing.

What's more fascinating is that if they confirm that they've found the elusive particle, they are still a gazillion leaps away from explaining anything. The media are hyping this up like it explains life, the universe and everything. It doesn't explain very much, other than we don't know very much about an awful lot. Like...why do a trillion subatomic particles form a double helix which is the most dead thing on the planet, yet it makes life happen? And why do we carry 20 million kilometres of the stuff in every one of us, but only need 3% of it? And why does it abuse protein for it's purposes, but can't actually communicate directly with protein? And why oh why did it decide that making Eminem was such a good idea, he can't sing! SO many unanswered questions!

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 00:34
Quote: " The media are hyping this up like it explains life, the universe and everything"


And yet they forget that the answer is actually 42.

But this is pretty much it with the media and scientific discoveries, the scientists find something, the media blows it out of proportion, when in fact scientists are just making a breakthrough in their study, but there's still plenty of tests to be done. After all, science is a constant process of acquiring and analysing data before they come to confirm anything and a good scientist won't sit speculating on their facts, maybe hypothesising, but not drawing out conclusions on speculations.

There's a web comic that captures this perfectly. Unfortunately, I don't remember where I saw it and I never saved it to my HDD (which I normally do when I see a gem like it).

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 03:11
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 03:13 Edited at: 5th Jul 2012 03:15
That's the one! You legend. Not sure if the last line breaks anything in the AUP, I know it's not technically swearing, but I know some folks out there can be pretty sensitive. *shrugs*

Diggsey
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 04:05
Quote: "That's like saying what colour is a photon?"


What's the problem? The colour of a photon is directly related to its frequency...

[b]
Benjamin
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 05:30
Interesting stuff. It's a shame the press hype it up like there's no tomorrow.

Quote: "What's more fascinating is that if they confirm that they've found the elusive particle, they are still a gazillion leaps away from explaining anything. The media are hyping this up like it explains life, the universe and everything. It doesn't explain very much, other than we don't know very much about an awful lot. Like...why do a trillion subatomic particles form a double helix which is the most dead thing on the planet, yet it makes life happen? And why do we carry 20 million kilometres of the stuff in every one of us, but only need 3% of it? And why does it abuse protein for it's purposes, but can't actually communicate directly with protein? And why oh why did it decide that making Eminem was such a good idea, he can't sing! SO many unanswered questions!"


These are all easy to answer: God did it.



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 05:34 Edited at: 5th Jul 2012 05:37
Quote: "These are all easy to answer: God did it."
You have my agreeance. I, a believer in God and creationism, also believe in evolution and the big bang... I do believe there is an answer to all of this, but only God knows it.

That's my idea, and we shall not let it get this thread locked.
BMacZero
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 06:08 Edited at: 5th Jul 2012 06:09
Quote: "These are all easy to answer: God did it."

Even so, it's still cool to try to learn how it all works .

It's kind of ridiculous how long all of this is going to take, though. They have to do a few more months of experiments just to measure the particle's spin - and that's short? Wonder how many times they had to do the experiment to catch it.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 06:27
True true!
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 06:37
Quote: "These are all easy to answer: God did it."

I thought you said you didn't troll that often

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 07:26
[i][/i]
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 07:34 Edited at: 5th Jul 2012 07:35


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 12:34
Quote: "I thought you said you didn't troll that often"


To be fair, he doesn't troll that often.


I am sure folks will have a difference of opinion based on their beliefs, but I'd rather not see the difference of opinion get the thread locked. It's an awesome discovery (and we will learn more in the coming months no doubt), I think it's better to not have the God vs no God discussion here.

TheComet
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 13:26
Quote: "What's the problem? The colour of a photon is directly related to its frequency..."


Until you look at it not as a waveform, but as a particle.

TheComet

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 15:21 Edited at: 5th Jul 2012 15:25
Quote: "What's the problem? The colour of a photon is directly related to its frequency..."


Physics is Cause, and Effect. You can say frequency relates to colour if you like. At least you are passing physics along a chain of events. But you can't say that mass causes mass, it is paradoxical, and you can't say that colour causes colour. So if people say that the Higgs Boson causes particles to have mass, because of its mass, it doesn't mean anything. If people said that the Higgs Boson causes Particles to have mass, because of its inertial spin, that works. The glue idea that I read about requires more physics.

Diggsey
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 16:07
Quote: "Until you look at it not as a waveform, but as a particle."


All particles have both a wavelength and a frequency, so it doesn't matter whether you look at it as a wave or a particle.

Quote: "Physics is Cause, and Effect. You can say frequency relates to colour if you like. At least you are passing physics along a chain of events. But you can't say that mass causes mass, it is paradoxical, and you can't say that colour causes colour. So if people say that the Higgs Boson causes particles to have mass, because of its mass, it doesn't mean anything. If people said that the Higgs Boson causes Particles to have mass, because of its inertial spin, that works. The glue idea that I read about requires more physics."


There's nothing paradoxical about saying that a particle that causes mass has a certain mass, it would be paradoxical if it didn't have mass. It's no different from saying that an electron has a charge of -1.6E-19C. The number only appears arbitrary because it is measured in units which are arbitrary.

[b]
David R
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 16:12 Edited at: 5th Jul 2012 16:14
Quote: "Physics is Cause, and Effect"


Not really. Radioactive decay is random and appears causeless, not to mention quantum mechanical phenomena (where the same 'cause' can create totally different effects for seemingly no reason)

09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
TheComet
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 16:36
Quote: "All particles have both a wavelength and a frequency, so it doesn't matter whether you look at it as a wave or a particle."


I'm going to say that I know too little about this, and so does a friend of mine who studied quantum mechanics, so I can't answer what colour the particle will have. I'll tell you this though: It isn't as simple as just converting the frequency to some colour value.

TheComet

Matty H
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 16:38
Trying to construct the concept in our heads of how the Higgs causes particles to have mass is very tricky, it might even be impossible.

I have seen diagrams explaining it, showing it latching onto particles to slow them down but I'm pretty sure this is just so we can visualize the effect and has nothing to do with what is really going on.

I know these things can be viewed as particles but they are more like abstract mathematical concepts which sometimes show themselves as a particle, the rest of the time they are doing some strange things which have no foundation in our everyday common sense.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 17:26 Edited at: 5th Jul 2012 17:30
Quote: "There's nothing paradoxical about saying that a particle that causes mass has a certain mass..etc"


Well, I think it is paradoxical. I think that science is very paradoxical. I think that we need to account for all physics with a Cause and effect that starts from nothing, and ends with infinity, and in-between the maths evolves, the scales evolve, the physics evolve, the particles evolve. And I think I know how to do it.

Diggsey
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 17:33
Quote: "I'm going to say that I know too little about this, and so does a friend of mine who studied quantum mechanics, so I can't answer what colour the particle will have. I'll tell you this though: It isn't as simple as just converting the frequency to some colour value."


Yes it is...

[b]
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 17:39
You could turn water waves into a frequency, but it is easy to say that waves in water don't actually exist, they are made from atoms, which are particles, and those atoms contain other particles, and the wave doesn't exist at the quantum level. The transit of the light wave is unknown. It's point, to point information is unknown.

TheComet
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 18:14
Quote: "Yes it is..."


To some degree

Particles don't have a fixed frequency, so the "colour" they emit varies incredibly.

Even with that said, you're missing my point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm trying to say is that if I observe the particle to be not a wave, it won't have a frequency and thus light and colour does not exist.

TheComet

Libervurto
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Posted: 5th Jul 2012 19:01
Higgs Bosons are green, I saw a computer animation of one.

Shh... you're pretty.
Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 01:16
Quote: "but what I'm trying to say is that if I observe the particle to be not a wave, it won't have a frequency and thus light and colour does not exist."

First of all, the classical theory of electromagnetism is wrong, because a light detector goes off in "bangs" (like a packet of energy hit them) instead of in continuous curves predicted by classical electromagnetism. So you have to describe them as wavefunctions, and you can calculate the frequency of a particle from the wavefunction. That's why all matter has a frequency. You can do diffraction experiments with electrons. You can even do these experiments with neutrons!

Quote: "I think that science is very paradoxical."

Good news! It isn't.

Also there are like seven videos on my youtube feed about the higgs, I'll post the really informative ones here xD

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 01:54 Edited at: 6th Jul 2012 02:04
Quote: "So you have to describe them as wavefunctions, and you can calculate the frequency of a particle from the wavefunction. That's why all matter has a frequency. You can do diffraction experiments with electrons. You can even do these experiments with neutrons!"


Oh well, I'm not going to bother with any more explanations until I get my program working.

Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 02:09
Quote: "Oh well, I'm not going to bother with any more explanations until I get my program working."

I don't see how your explanation of why water waves don't exist is applicable seeing as how a continuum is assumed.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 02:21
Quote: "I don't see how your explanation of why water waves don't exist is applicable seeing as how a continuum is assumed."


There have been searches for a spacetime grain structure. It was observed once, and then it was never observed again. If spacetime has a grain structure you have a parallel with waves through water as particles passing messages to their neighbour. The physics that I work on presumes that spacetime has a grain structure, and shows why it is hard to detect.

Neuro Fuzzy
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 03:18
Quote: "It was observed once, and then it was never observed again."

You're not helping your argument...

Diggsey
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 05:44
Quote: "Particles don't have a fixed frequency, so the "colour" they emit varies incredibly.

Even with that said, you're missing my point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm trying to say is that if I observe the particle to be not a wave, it won't have a frequency and thus light and colour does not exist."


That article is talking about the colour of an object - it's true that objects emit photons of a wide variety of wavelengths - but each photon has a particular wavelength and therefore a particular colour.

[b]
Alien223
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 06:54
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 14:15 Edited at: 6th Jul 2012 14:21
Quote: "You're not helping your argument..."

Spacetime isn't made to help us find it. Our evolution developed to help us hide it from our sight. Like a fish would want to hide water from its sight.

Zotoaster
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 16:39
Quote: " Spacetime isn't made to help us find it. Our evolution developed to help us hide it from our sight. Like a fish would want to hide water from its sight."


That doesn't mean that when something appears to not exist, then it's proof that it does exist.

As for Higgs particles having mass, do they interact with each other? If that's the case, then it's a very simple, non-paradoxical explanation for why mass-giving particles have mass.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 16:46 Edited at: 6th Jul 2012 16:53
Quote: "As for Higgs particles having mass, do they interact with each other? If that's the case, then it's a very simple, non-paradoxical explanation for why mass-giving particles have mass."


That is the explanation, but not worded properly. It is the interaction, and none interaction that creates threading of particles, and that creates mass. The threading process. Like beads on a string, but more like water through a hose. That's the physics that I use. You power a boat with a water jet through the boat, and it locks it to the water. You try to pull the boat out, and it is heavy with the flow. The gyroscope spins, and threads itself, and does the same thing. Cause, and effect.. not mass creates mass.

Zotoaster
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 18:07 Edited at: 6th Jul 2012 18:11
Quote: "That is the explanation, but not worded properly. It is the interaction, and none interaction that creates threading of particles, and that creates mass. The threading process. Like beads on a string, but more like water through a hose. That's the physics that I use. You power a boat with a water jet through the boat, and it locks it to the water. You try to pull the boat out, and it is heavy with the flow. The gyroscope spins, and threads itself, and does the same thing. Cause, and effect.. not mass creates mass."


You say I didn't word it properly, but your explanation is pure nonsense. I don't claim to understand quantum mechanics very well, I just have a rough idea. I know the Higgs particle differentiates between different kinds of particles, and slows some of them down (giving them mass), and some pass straight through (massless particles like photons). If a Higgs particle comes in the way of another Higgs particle and they both slow each other down, then they both have mass. Beads on a string and water through a hose don't explain it any more simply than that.


[edit]

Of course, does this mean that empty space, a vacuum, has mass? Interesting..

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 18:32 Edited at: 6th Jul 2012 18:34
Quote: "I know the Higgs particle differentiates between different kinds of particles, and slows some of them down (giving them mass), and some pass straight through (massless particles like photons). If a Higgs particle comes in the way of another Higgs particle and they both slow each other down, then they both have mass."


That's what you read, not what you know. I read that too, it's the science version. It doesn't include any physics though. It's like they needed words, so came up with some words.

Zotoaster
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 18:35
Quote: "That's what you read, not what you know."


I highly doubt you observed a Higgs particle (or any other one) first-hand. Have you been to the LHC or are your theories not based on things that you, too, have read? I don't have a choice but to base my knowledge of these things on what I read because I don't have the means to test them myself, and the general word out of physicists is what I posted above. If you think they're wrong and you're right, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but you won't convince me or anyone else with that mumbo-jumbo you posted above.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 18:38 Edited at: 6th Jul 2012 18:40
No I don't base things on what I have read, I make computer simulations. My theory is completely from scratch. I don't need to convince anyone, you live in the same Universe as me. If you don't care how it works is up to you.

Zotoaster
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 18:42 Edited at: 6th Jul 2012 18:47
Then you need to test them in reality before you make a claim about reality. That's why they took $10 billion and built the LHC. They could have saved a lot of money and hired a few programmers but that wouldn't give the right answer. Also, if you don't take into account documented knowledge about the standard model (which I suppose you haven't read about), then your computer model is probably flawed.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 18:44 Edited at: 6th Jul 2012 18:45
There is no reality in the Standard Model or the LHC claims, or the maths which is mostly backwards.

Zotoaster
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 18:47
Bottom line, scientists always work to figure out how the world works. Quantum mechanics is over 100 years old, and has been developed by many people and has been attacked by many big names (including Einstein). It has stood the test of time and peer review and got this far, so it deserves what credit it gets. One guy writing programs in his bedroom can't expect to be taken seriously if he thinks his own personal theories are better, when he can't explain them succinctly and refuses to enlighten us with his hidden wisdom, on the grounds that we don't care enough to figure it out for ourselves. Oh please.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jul 2012 18:58
To me it is all kiddy science that has stood the test of time inside the minds of children.

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